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CNN Reports, Jan. 6 Committee Expected to Refer At Least Three Criminal Charges Against Trump to DOJ; El Paso Declares State of Emergency as End of Title 42 Looms; New York Braces for More Migrants as Title 42 Expires. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 19, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Soon, the January 6 committee will make its closing argument after a 17-month investigation, nearly a year-and-a-half, hours upon hours of witness testimony, as well as multiple public hearings. The committee is expected to refer criminal charges against former President Donald Trump and others.

HILL: Those charges include insurrection, obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the federal government. The panel also considering referrals against some of Trump's closest allies and potential ethic sanctions for current GOP lawmakers who refused to comply with the investigation.

SCIUTTO: Joining us now, CNN's Paula Reid. And I know for folks at home, it certainly is for me, it is hard to keep track of the multiple developments and multiple investigations along the way, and there will be allegations of politicking through this committee here. But this is quite a moment for this committee, which does have Republican members and quite prominent Republican members in senior roles here. They're going to make a criminal referral against a former president.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It is historic, Jim. And today is the culmination of this investigation that's been going on for a year-and-a-half.

Now, this is not a type of hearing where we are going to see more witnesses testify. The investigation itself is done. Today is a business meeting. And there are two key items on the agenda. The first is, as you noted, the question of a criminal referral. Who does the committee believe after this investigation should potentially be held criminally responsible for what happened?

They're going to make recommendations to the Justice Department, we expect at the top of the list will be former President Trump. They are expected to recommend that he be charged for three different crimes, including insurrection, obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the federal government.

Now, we know from our reporting that they're also considering criminal referrals for other individuals but at this point it is not clear if that will happen today or at all. But these are largely symbolic. The Justice Department, they're on it. We know they're already investigating the former president and his associates for their roles in January 6. That is handed off to Jack Smith. So, there is no guarantee to be an indictment just because they made this referral.

The other big thing we can expect today is the committee is going to vote to approve its final report. That's the big summary of everything that they've uncovered. We'll get a summary of that report later today. The final report, though, won't be released until Wednesday. But it is a historic day on Capitol Hill, no doubt.

SCIUTTO: And, by the way, as the committee chairman has said, I mean, this is public information, right? And that the DOJ has access to all and any of the testimony and evidence it's uncovered. Paula Reid, thanks so much.

A big question for the January 6 committee, among many, has to be how to hold accountable Republican lawmakers who defied the panel subpoenas.

HILL: CNN's Katelyn Polantz joining us now with that angle. Do we have any further indication this morning about what the committee plans to do there?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jim and Erica, we know that Congress, the House select committee, one of things they've flexed their muscles on throughout this entire process is their subpoenas. And so now with this final meeting with their report coming out, we have to watch and see what they do with any subpoenas that nobody responded to.

And there are five subpoenas that went to members of the house, all Republicans, that we are waiting to see what the House will do with them. Those subpoenas went to GOP leader, Kevin McCarthy, Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio, Mo Brooks of Alabama, Andy Biggs of Arizona, Scott Perry of Pennsylvania, people who they wanted to ask questions of, people who backed Trump, some of whom were taking part in the rally on the Ellipse or the efforts to question the election, to put pressure on Mike Pence and the Justice Department.

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And so the question now is what does the committee do, what does Congress do? One of the options on the table is not a criminal referral for them. It could be something like an ethics referral. The House has its own ethics regulators, the House Ethics Committee. They could look into these members of Congress and decide what to do when Congress subpoenas their own. And there isn't a response there.

But this really is a big question of how do you leave it at the end of this monumental, historic investigation, and the way they leave it could become the path forward for other congressional investigations where members of Congress are subpoenaed as well.

So, there is a lot at stake here with what this committee decides to do with these five members of Congress who didn't respond to their subpoenas. And so we're going to have to wait and see exactly how that plays out with the referrals and with the vote today.

SCIUTTO: Katelyn Polantz, thanks very much.

Joining us now to put this all in context, CNN Senior Political Analyst Kirsten Powers and CNN Legal Analyst Elliot Williams, also back with us.

Elliot, if we can, let's set aside what this is not. It is certainly not binding for the Justice Department to then follow through with its own indictments. It's going to make its own judgment. To what it is. And this is a remarkable moment, a bipartisan committee accusing a former president of multiple crimes. Did the committee sufficiently make its case?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, again, the question what is the committee's case to make. And the question of proving someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, that is for the Justice Department. Now, did they create a compelling set of, I believe it was nine hearings, where witnesses put on believable testimony, sworn under oath that will populate what I think will be like a thousand-page report, then, yes, they did that.

It is really what their charge was as the Congress of the United States is to compel, in effect, to compel the public to act, to plant the seed in people's heads as to what happened and to help sort of clarify issues, and there they did.

Now, the question is can anyone be convicted of a crime based on what they've seen thus far. Of course, not, and that is for prosecutors to decide.

HILL: Kirsten, looking at the broader picture, what do you see as -- I'm not sure if legacy or impact is the right term here when we look at committee and the findings, which we'll ultimately have this week, in this country that feels so dug in, so divided in many ways. What is that impact?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think no matter where you stand on the political spectrum, obviously, this is a very momentous event, the fact that you have a former president of the United States who has been investigated by Congress for trying to overthrow the government, essentially, you know, at a minimum, inspiring people to storm the Capitol. And so I think that that just, as a historical matter, is extremely momentous.

Now, who will it impact, who will pay attention to this, you know, integrate the findings of the report, that is an open question. I think generally, as we've seen, there is a core group of people who are always behind Donald Trump no matter what and everything is a persecution against him if you -- the investigation was would be just yet another persecution, but I think that there are a lot of people in the country who are open minded and who are more in the middle and certainly, if we're going to talk politics, are people who are the swing voters who could be impacted by this, by the findings, and what is in the report, and a criminal referral and what the Justice Department ultimately does.

SCIUTTO: Kirsten, question, so you have this other issue of how to punish, if at all, members of Congress who defied congressional subpoenas here. Republicans, you might say, are in something of a pickle because they're about to start their own investigations where they're going to be subpoenaing Democrats having undermined the work of this committee and supported their colleagues who defied subpoenas. I mean, do they -- I mean, are they actually in a pickle or they just say, hey, that was not a good investigation, ours is just fine?

POWERS: Yes. I mean, they don't -- they probably don't see it as a pickle. They have a way around these things. But I guess the issue for the committee is looking forward and thinking it is something where subpoenas are going to start being used as a weapon, you know, making criminal referrals will start being used as a weapon rather than being used as something that is, you know, which they would argue they're doing in this case, which is we're just trying to get information here that is relevant to a very important investigation.

And so I think that that is the thing that they're balancing, like what do we do with members of Congress that aren't going to answer subpoenas knowing that whatever we do is going to be, at a minimum, imitated by the Republicans when they go into power.

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I would say, you should probably just do what is the right thing to do, and because the Republicans are going to do what they're going to do, right? I don't think by not -- not referring it to the ethics committee or not doing a criminal referral is going to mean that the Republicans aren't going to do that. I think that, you know, they should have some sort of -- there has to be repercussions for this, right? You just can't ignore a subpoena if you have pertinent information to an investigation.

HILL: And would you hope, too, and to your point, Kirsten, if Democrats do care that deeply about how things play out, then they should do what is the right thing there.

It's interesting, though, in terms of policing themselves, if this is referred, Elliot, to the ethics committee, bipartisan but the party in power has chair there, right? So, even if it is referred to the ethics committee, how do you see that playing out January 3rd?

WILLIAMS: Yes, it's sort of toothless, like exactly as you said. The ethics committee is set up to be bipartisan. That's a good thing. But at end of the day, the leadership will be Republicans, and I don't envision a scenario in which the ethics committee holds anyone accountable.

There's something -- they really have a choice to make here. Yes, they have a week if Democrats really wanted to or the committee really wanted to go down the road of charging their colleagues with crimes, they certainly could try to, but to backing up Kirsten's point, look, come next year, Republicans will have these gavels and it might be in Democrats' interest to just let them blow these subpoenas off because turnabout is fair play and they'll have every opportunity to block off subpoenas next year if they are -- and they're going to be subpoenaed, let's be clear.

SCIUTTO: Deplete the value of a subpoena over time. There are also those institutional consequences. Elliot Williams, Kirsten Powers, thanks so much to both of you.

Please do join us for CNN's special coverage of the committee's final meeting. That special coverage begins at noon Eastern Time.

And still to come this hour, bracing for the surge, the U.S. is preparing for a massive influx of migrants at the border with the expiration of Title 42. We're going to go live back to El Paso, Texas, next.

HILL: Plus, Twitter CEO Elon Musk putting his fate now in the hands of Twitter users with a user poll asking if he should go. The results are in. Will he follow through on his promise to abide by them?

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SCIUTTO: Federal, state and local officials on the U.S./Mexico border are preparing for a surge of migrants as Title 42, as it's known, comes to an end on Wednesday. The measure was a COVID-19 policy to help slow the spread of the virus. It allowed officials to quickly expel migrants caught at the southern border.

HILL: With as many as 10,000 people waiting now to cross the border, officials predict the end of that pandemic era measure could increase the flow of migrants twofold.

CNN's Ed Lavendera is live in El Paso where the mayor has declared a state of emergency, concerns about the city and just how prepared it is, understandably, Ed, for this wave of migrants.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Erica and Jim. Well, it is logistical nightmare that many border communities will be facing in the days and very possibly weeks ahead. And the concern here is being able to be in a position to move migrants through -- who have been processed by Border Patrol and into other parts of the country where they await the immigration court process, and that is the challenge that many of these border communities will be facing starting perhaps starting Wednesday.

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LAVANDERA (voice over): It is 39 degrees and getting colder. This is Roberto Cordoba's first night sleeping on the El Paso streets. He says he's never experienced anything close to homelessness. He left Cuba last month and is hoping to get to Miami soon.

He says this is the first time in his life he's ever had to spend the night on the street and he feels completely lost.

A thin pair of New York Giants socks and unlaced shoes won't be enough to get through the frigid night.

Everything that he's wearing now, the jackets and the heavy clothing, is donated to people who have dropped it off here.

Roberto he hopes there is something else to keep him warm in the back of Sandra Grace Martinez's car. For days, she has handed out donated goods.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're on survival mode. It is fight or flight for them.

LAVANDERA: The long lines of migrants from Juarez, Mexico, waiting to get escorted into El Paso by Border Patrol agents has significantly dwindled, a sign that perhaps this latest migration surge has slowed down for now. But that could change with the Title 42 public health rule set to expire. That order allows for the swift expulsion of migrants at the border.

As more migrants arrive in El Paso, officials plan to bring in more buses to move migrants to their destinations in the U.S. faster, hoping to prevent a backlog of people on these streets.

MARIO D'AGOSTINO, EL PASO DEPUTY CITY MANAGER: And so with that, that might be bring in transportation in forms of buses to get them to that transportation hub. Whether it is Dallas or Denver or Phoenix or whatever that next large airport or bus terminal is, it's to move them on to those locations.

LAVANDERA: El Paso emergency management outreach teams are helping migrants find shelter space at night, but Albert Robles and his wife have been sleeping on the street, buried under blankets since Monday night. Their bus ticket to Connecticut isn't good until this weekend.

He said the first night that he was sleeping on the street, it was drizzling and cold, it was almost like a fatal feeling.

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But he thought he's been dreaming of this moment for so long, but there was no way he was going to turn back.

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LAVANDERA (on camera): And the Robles family did move on to their next destination here in the U.S.

But a familiar site playing out here this morning, Jim and Erica, every morning, we see migrants who were still on the streets here waking up and they clean up these areas every morning. And many of the migrants have told me over last few days it was -- it is their way of showing the El Paso community here their gratitude for them being welcomed here on the streets as they await their immigration court process. Jim and Erica?

SCIUTTO: Goodness, and could often last years that, process. Ed Lavendera, thanks so much.

Well, far from the southern borders, cities in the north, such as New York, are expecting many of those migrants stand up there, arrive in their communities.

HILL: Officials here in New York say tens of thousands of migrants have sought asylum in the city, many of them bused in the city over the last few months by Republican Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

Polo Sandoval joining us live in New York. So, the city is preparing for this next wave. What does that preparation look like, Polo?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The city has learned exactly what it looks like over the last several months to see these asylum seekers who cross along the southern border, many of them either bused by Republican governors or coming here on their own, but all of them certainly adding strain to the situation here with roughly 100 asylum seekers arrived here this morning, part of that ongoing trend of these buses coming here to New York City. Still two more buses expected later today.

And, yes, the flow has greatly reduced compared to where we were but the numbers are not going to stay like, that according to New York City officials -- that the city does need financial help, already spending roughly $1 billion to house, feed and educate some of these asylum seekers, of course, talking about their children in some of the city's schools. And the city recognizing that now with Title 42 potentially going away in a couple of days, that those numbers are going to continue to increase.

You mentioned those numbers. Roughly 31,000 asylum seekers already processed by New York City officials, about 21,000 of them still sheltered here in New York. So, what they expect here, according to a new financial analysis that was prepared by the city, is that if these trends continue, then New York City stands to spend roughly a billion dollars a year for the next four years, according to the comptroller's officer. This has created a very sort of uncertain financial factor that the city has to deal with it.

So, what we're hearing right now, Erica and Jim, are these growing calls for not just the federal government to step in and assist financially but also the state of New York, which, according to New York City Mayor Eric Adams, both have been unresponsive right now, both state and the federal government, when it comes to helping foot the bill.

So, it will be interesting to see now with Title 42 potentially going away. As we know, many of the families that were coming in were Venezuela asylum seekers. They had few to no social ties, so they were very relying on the government, or at least in the city government, to be able to house them. So, it will be interesting to see now we see more Mexican nations, more Central Americans, more South Americans coming in. And if they do have some of those social ties, and perhaps they would be less of a burden but we'll certainly have to see that there is still a lot up in the air as we get closer to the removal of that Title 42 protocol.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Polo Sandoval, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Just ahead here, what is being described as a horrendous scene in Canada, five people are dead after a gunman opened fire in a condo outside of Toronto. We'll have the latest for you on the investigation.

SCIUTTO: Plus, a scary moment in the sky, dozens of people hurt after severe turbulence rocked a Hawaiian airlines flight. You're going to hear from one of the passengers. That is coming up.

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SCIUTTO: Now, a second instance, if you could believe it, of severe turbulence, and now two of those on two different flights in the last 24 hours have injured more than 40 people. This morning, three crew members, two passengers on the United Flight from Rio de Janeiro had to be taken to hospital in Houston, Texas, after the airline says the plane encountered unexpected severe turbulence. Yesterday, a severe turbulence caused a mass casualty emergency, this on a flight from Phoenix to Honolulu. At least 36 passengers and crew members were injured when the turbulence hit about a half hour before that flight, the Hawaiian airlines flight, landed. Passengers described sudden chaos of people being thrown from their seats.

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KAYLEE REYES, PASSENGER: The plane shook and then like it went in a sudden drop, kind of like how you would go into a drop on a roller coaster.

My mom wasn't buckle and so I turned to my right and I saw that she was like -- she hit the ceiling and she hit the floor.

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SCIUTTO: Emergency responders took some 20 people to hospitals, including a 14-month-old child. The FAA is investigating. The airline says it is thoroughly inspecting the Airbus 330 plane before returning it to service.

Another story we're following this morning in that shooting rampage in the suburb of Toronto, which has left five people dead. Police still searching for a motive for the gunman. The gunman opened fire at a condo Sunday night, was later shot and killed in a confrontation with police.

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HILL: CNN's Jean Casarez has been following the details here. What more are police saying about this shooting this morning, Jean?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They want to know the motive, and that is the big question right now.