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January 6th Committee Refers Trump for Criminal Prosecution; Releasing Trump's Tax Returns; January 6th Committee to Release Report; Earthquake in Northern California; Title 42 Blocked from Ending; Uncertainty at the Border. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 20, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:22]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good Tuesday morning, I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

The January 6th committee officially handing its case against former President Trump on, in effect, to the Justice Department. The big question now of course is, what does the Justice Department do with this evidence, as well as the evidence it's collected itself.

For the first time in American history, Congress has recommended criminal charges against a former president. The committee accused Trump of four federal crimes, including inciting an insurrection. Those criminal referrals do not force the Justice Department to do anything, but with DOJ investigations already underway, and Trump already a 2024 presidential candidate, the rule of law, American democracy, lots of things facing key tests just ahead.

HILL: Plus, the Biden administration facing a new deadline today to respond after Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts puts a temporary hold on Title 42. So, for now, that rule allowing officials to turn away migrants at the border because of pandemic era health concerns can stay in place, at least, that is, until justices decide on an emergency appeal filed by a group of Republican-led states. We'll keep you posted and we'll take you live to the border.

We do begin this hour, though, with the January 6th committee's blistering closing argument against former President Trump.

SCIUTTO: CNN's senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid joins us now.

And, Paula, a big question throughout this has been, did the president believe his own election lies, because that gets potentially to intent. What did we learn from their final report yesterday?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It's such a great question, Jim, because when we see the reaction from the Trump camp, we see what he's saying publicly, right, the political spin, and then there are the arguments that his lawyers, his advisers are making behind the scenes.

Now, publicly, he argues that, look, he says in a statement, these folks don't get it, that when they come after me people who love freedom rally around me. It strengthens me. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

Now, behind the scenes his advisers are hoping that he just will lay low, not say too much, but they're not sure he's actually going to follow their advice.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

REID: Now, I speak with members of his defense team and they say they're not that concerned about this particular investigation, the one into his role in January 6th. They say that prosecutors really face an uphill battle proving, as you noted, that he didn't know that the election wasn't stolen.

But what's so interesting is yesterday we saw the House select committee try to blunt that defense by presenting a lot of these previously unseen clips of White House advisers testifying that they, in fact, told him this was not true.

Let's take a listen to what Hope Hicks had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOPE HICKS, FORMER TRUMP AIDE: I was becoming increasingly concerned that we were damaging -- we were damaging his legacy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did the president say in response to what you just described?

HICKS: He said something along the lines of, you know, nobody will care about my legacy if I lose, so that won't matter. The only thing that matters is -- is winning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Not helpful for his defense if they're going to try to argue that he had a valid, honestly-held belief that he had won the election.

Now, lawmakers, they've made their case in the court of public opinion. Let's see what the Justice Department does with it.

HILL: And, Paula, in terms of the Justice Department, I know you have some new reporting on the special counsel and next steps there. What have you learned?

REID: That's right. So Special Counsel Jack Smith, he's been appointed to take over the January 6th investigation into the former president and his associates, as well as the investigation in classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago residence. He's already looking into this. He didn't necessarily need these new criminal referrals, but it's interesting that he has been working remotely in Europe after a biking accident, but a source familiar with his plans tells CNN that he is expected to be back in the U.S. by early January.

And that's significant because that will allow him to really finalize his office, set that up, get that machine sort of working because some of the former president's attorneys have argued, look, nothing's changed. We still talk to the same people. Is this guy just a rubber stamp? But this is his opportunity to return to the United States, continue these investigations and wrap them up.

Look, time is of the essence here.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

REID: There are concerns even by the attorney general how far this will extend into campaign season now that the former president has announced he is once again running for the White House.

SCIUTTO: Paula Reid, thanks so much.

This afternoon, another investigative thread. The House Ways and Means Committee is meeting to discuss what, if anything, they plan to do with Trump's tax returns. The former president never made his returns public on the campaign trail, you'll remember. The committee has them and now has the ability to do just that.

[09:05:00]

CNN's Lauren Fox joining us live from Capitol Hill.

So, what is the latest? What are we expecting later today, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this meeting really years in the making, Erica. And such an important moment for the House Ways and Means Committee. As you know, Richard Neal, the chairman of this committee, has had access to the former president's tax information now for a couple of weeks. But new information that I got last night is that members have also begun to get access to this information ahead of today's meeting.

What we expect to happen is that they will get together at 3:00 p.m. today. They will open the meeting then they will quickly vote to go into what is known as an executive session or a closed-door meeting. That means we won't be able to see what transpires within that meeting.

They'll have a discussion then about what to do with the information that they have received about Trump's taxes. That is going to be a decision up to the committee. We do not know what they plan to decide and whether or not they will release any of this information. But it is going to be significant.

They will come out of that meeting and then they will have the formal vote where we will be able to see how members vote and whether or not they want to move forward with releasing some of this information.

It's going to be highly, highly anticipated, in part because Republicans are arguing that this is unprecedented, that this is something that they think is being weaponized by the Ways and Means Committee, but the chairman has been steadfast all along saying he wanted this tax information because he wants to understand how this presidential audit program has been working over at IRS. That's a program that requires when a new president and vice president come into office that their taxes are automatically audited. We're going to see today what they decide to do and if we get any of this information after years of this fight by House chairman -- Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal.

HILL: Yes. Yes, a lot of people waiting on that outcome. Lauren, we know you'll stay on top of it for us. Thank you.

Joining us now to discuss, Elie Honig, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, and CNN senior political analyst and anchor John Avlon.

Gentlemen, always good to see you.

You know, Elie, as we look at where we are now, these referrals, which were anticipated, coming yesterday, along with the executive summary, which was not short, let's be clear here, nearly 160 pages. The full report, transcripts coming later, coming tomorrow.

In your mind, as a former prosecutor, what are prosecutors looking for in both the executive summary that they have now and then the other documents, the other information that will be coming tomorrow?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, Erica, the executive summary that we got yesterday, I think, on its face is a fairly compelling document. I think they make a straightforward case and it's grounded in the facts that they presented to us during the hearings.

But I think there's also both more or less to what it appears on its face former a prosecutor's point of view. For one thing, we're going to get more details tomorrow. We're going to starting seeing those transcripts. They left some sort of conspicuous gaps in the executive summary yesterday that maybe they will fill in tomorrow. Also I think it's a fair bet that DOJ has some information that the committee does not have. It does both ways. The committee clearly has information DOJ does not have and vice versa.

But on the other hand, we also have to keep in mind, this has been a one-sided affair. Yes, it's a bipartisan committee, but there's been no cross-examination. There's not even been any real examination of the underlying transcripts. So, count on the fact that in the coming days Donald Trump and his team will scrutinize all of those transcripts, all that evidence, and look for any inconsistencies or any evidence that may be favorable to Donald Trump as well.

SCIUTTO: Elie, a specific legal question here. The report established multiple instances in which someone close to Trump, and we saw in Paula's report there Hope Hicks, told him that the voter fraud theories were false, right, or, you know, witnessing instances like that. Does that help establish intent here because that's a part of the issue, right, from a legal standpoint is you have to have intent to defraud. HONIG: That goes exactly to the issue of intent, Jim. I think you've

hit on the key issue that I promise you prosecutors are struggling with right now. There is plenty of evidence that all manner of credible people, from Donald Trump's own advisers, to Bill Barr, to all manner of advisers and people who Donald Trump himself chose told him, you've lost, it's over.

There also is, of course, evidence that some of Donald Trump's more sort of ardent loyalists told him, well, hold on, there's fraud, and we're talking about Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell and others like that.

Now, we can roll our eyes at that and say, who believes Rudy Giuliani? Who believes Sidney Powell? And I think there's some justification for that. But what Donald Trump's lawyers will argue is he gets to decide who he believes. If he trusts Rudy and Sidney Powell and doesn't trust other people, then that's up to him.

So, this is going to be a difficult issue, Jim, and I think it's at the heart of what prosecutors are trying to drill in on.

HILL: We also heard from the former vice president, Mike Pence, in response. I want to play a little bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I would hope that they would not bring charges against the former president. I - I don't -- look, I -- as I wrote in my book, I think the president's actions and words on January 6th were reckless, but I don't know that it's --

[09:10:05]

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS: Criminal.

PENCE: It's criminal -

PERINO: Got it.

PENCE: To take bad advice from lawyers.

I hope the Justice Department understands the magnitude of the very idea of -

PERINO: Sure.

PENCE: Indicting a former president of the United States. I think that would be terribly divisive in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: John, "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board essentially echoing what we heard from Mike Pence, basically saying DOJ shouldn't indict because of the potential impact on the country, citing the -- in the board's words, partisan context of the committee's work. But, look, if we are -- you have talked so well about this, about the

historical context here. The historical context of, they say you can't indict because it would be too political. Well, not indicting would be political, as opposed to just following the facts. Where are we at in this country now that that's the discussion?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AND ANCHOR: Well, I don't think we can be distracted by that discussion because at the end of the day, while you need to take in the impact of this unprecedented situation we're in, there's a deeper principle at play. Equal justice under law. You apply the law.

And if you look at the history of the laws that were invoked, you know, by the committee yesterday, and particularly insurrection, giving aid or comfort to - or inciting an insurrection, you know, these are laws that are rooted in some ways, you know, you -- certainly in the Civil War. In the Civil War generation, putting the laws forward to try to stop future insurrection from occurring, embedded in 14th Amendment Section 3.

And so I think this idea that - that enforcing the law is divisive pales in comparison that the idea that trying to overturn an election based on a lie is far more divisive. And without accountability, insurrections are just practice.

SCIUTTO: John, political question here because folks will parse whether the January 6th committee had a political impact before the DOJ make its decision. Amy Walter made the point yesterday that, well, if you look at the midterm elections you can argue that the January 6th committee's findings, as well as other things that have been revealed by reporters and other revelations and so on already had something of a political impact and the election deniers did not fare well in the midterms. Is that - is that a fair connection?

AVLON: I think that is a fair connection. Remember the election deniers did not do well in swing states, which is where, of course, they matter the most. And many red -- so-called red states, conservative states, they won, but presumably they won't be trying to overturn elections if their team wins. But that's the problem of this.

And we do need - you know, I think what was so - more compelling about the testimony we heard is that it's coming from Republicans. It's coming from within the Trump White House. And that should, you know, blow apart this sort of process argument, hand-wringing, that this was somehow a partisan committee. If it had -- it could have been more bipartisan. It should have been more bipartisan. And I think that does reflect where we are as a country, that we can't unite even after January 6th.

But it's up to really the Republican Party, I think, to repudiate Donald Trump if they want to diminish his power going forward considering he's still campaigning on a lie that apparently nobody else believes. That's fundamental.

SCIUTTO: And we should note, I mean, there was a bipartisan plan, you know, for this committee. It was abandoned. AVLON: It was blown apart.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Elie Honig, John Avlon -

HILL: By Kevin Harvick (ph).

SCIUTTO: Yes, exactly, after he appointed someone, a Republican, to help negotiate it.

HILL: Yes, then he (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: Elie Honig, John Avlon, good to have you on. I'm sure there will be more to discuss coming up.

AVLON: There will.

HILL: Well, right now, tens of thousands of people are without power after a 6.4 magnitude earthquake struck Humboldt County in northern California. So, you're seeing some of the images here that we've been getting in of just one of the homes that sustained some damage there.

SCIUTTO: Yes, listen, you have earthquakes out there. Folks get worried.

CNN's Veronica Miracle joins us now from San Francisco.

Veronica, San Francisco, not a place alien to fears of earthquakes. First of all, was it felt there, and what more do we know about the damage and the extent of this?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim and Erica, not felt here in San Francisco. However, there's a lot of communities in Humboldt County that are dealing with the damage as they wake up this morning. The Humboldt County Sheriff's Office saying that people need to be prepared for aftershocks in that area, and they're also asking people to check for gas and water line damage and they're asking people to be safe and cautious when traveling, partly because some of the roadways, there's debris on the roadways. There's also reports of a bridge that has been damaged, the Fern Bridge has been damaged, that's a connector there. and they're assessing that as they look at the seismic issues.

There's also reports of damages to people's homes. We're seeing videos of shelves knocked down, of China and glassware broken as people are waking up and assessing the damage. And as of last check, about 70 percent of people in that area are without power this morning. That's about 70,000 people in the area waking up in the dark.

Officials are asking people not to call 911 unless there is an immediate threat, but they are saying, at this point in time, there is no tsunami threat. So, a lot of damage to go through and officials are working around the clock and around the area to make sure that everyone is safe this morning.

[09:15:06]

Jim. Erica.

HILL: Yes, and daylight will be important there, too, as the sun begins to come up.

Veronica Miracle, appreciate it. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: All right, still to come, the Supreme Court temporarily freezing the end of Title 42. We're going to be live down on both sides of the border where now guardsmen are mobilizing this morning, ramping up security ahead of a possible new surge.

And overnight on Capitol Hill, lawmakers unveiled agreement, a massive spending bill to avert a government shutdown. There is little room for error ahead of the Friday deadline.

HILL: Plus, a shocking security failure. Someone posing as an intruder able to gain access to a school in Uvalde, Texas, nearly eight months after that tragic massacre.

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HILL: The Biden administration has until 5:00 p.m. today to respond to a temporary hold allowing Title 42 to remain in place. That, of course, is the pandemic policy which allows border authorities to swiftly expel migrants seeking asylum at the U.S./Mexico border.

SCIUTTO: A judge ordered the government to stop enforcing the rule after Wednesday this week, but a group of Republican-led states then appealed to the Supreme Court, and Chief Justice John Roberts issued that stay in effect for now holding the policy in place.

CNN is, once again, on both sides of the southern border. David Culver on the Mexican side in Ciudad Juarez. We begin, though, in El Paso, Texas, with Ed Lavandera.

[09:20:03]

So, for now, Title 42 remains in place, allows border officers to basically expel people based on pandemic grounds, but the city is still preparing for the lifting of that policy. What are you seeing?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are seeing dramatic change this morning along the Rio Grande here in El Paso where National Guard soldiers have been deploying fencing and barbed wire along the very area where migrants have been crossing for much of the last week. And this is part of, according to the Texas National Guard, some 400 soldiers deployed to the area. This coming in the days after the mayor of El Paso had declared a state of emergency. But it's not exactly clear if this is the kind of deployment and the kind of efforts that city leaders and local leaders had wanted to see.

So we have reached out to many of the city leaders, trying to get a reaction to what we're seeing play out here on the river this morning. But officials here in the area have been saying that regardless of what is happening in the courts, that they will continue proceeding as if Title 42 is going to be lifted on Wednesday. They say they are in the process of really trying to shore up shelter space, opening up perhaps several warehouses, even unused school buildings to house migrants and that they're more concerned with sheltering and transportation issues at this point. But right now officials are saying that they are going to continue moving ahead as if Title 42 is going to be lifted tomorrow.

HILL: Ed Lavandera with the latest in El Paso for us.

Ed, thank you.

Of course, as we mentioned, just on the other side there, David Culver joining us from Ciudad Juarez, Mexico.

So, David, many of these migrants, as we know, have traveled thousands of miles. They have spent weeks just to get to this point to cross the river. What are they saying this morning?

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Erica and Jim.

A lot of confusion, that's for sure, because they saw what we saw playing out around 4:30 in the morning local time here, and that is this bolstering along the border. You heard Ed mentioning the barbed wire going up. That's exactly what we see just across the Rio Grande here. You've got National Guards members who are in place. You've got state troopers from the state of Texas also here. They are keeping people from what was a very easy crossing from going over, telling them instead, go down to the bridge, the formal crossing. That's the only way you can get in.

Now, the question is, what happens once you actually get over and you become processed by CBP? Well, that really depends on who you ask.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CULVER (voice over): We watch as they step over a debris field of personal belongings, clothes and trash, reminders of the thousands who crossed illegally before them, most hoping for asylum in the U.S.

In this very spot last month we introduced you to Joyvile Gutierrez (ph), her husband Franklin and their five-year-old son. Like so many migrants chasing their American dream, they waited for the right time to step across.

CULVER (on camera): (Speaking in Foreign Language). Are you scared?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

CULVER: He said he's a little scared. It's always hard because you don't know what's going to happen.

CULVER (voice over): That was their second attempt to enter the U.S. They are now in Indianapolis, near Joyvile's brother and staying with a friend.

There's still the fear that they can expel us, Franklin says. We don't want to do anything bad that will call attention.

When they entered the U.S., they say border agents brought them in, no questions asked. A sign, they say, of the seemingly overwhelmed land crossing.

They only told us what we needed to do, go here, go there, she says.

After seven days in immigration detention in El Paso, Joyvile says they were granted conditional release. Now they wait for a January court hearing to determine their status and future in the U.S.

Rafael Rojas (ph) shared with us his treacherous and deadly journey from Venezuela to Mexico, witnessing tragedy throughout. When we met him last month, he held tight to his shoes and followed the same stone path Joyvile took just hours earlier. But unlike Joyvile and her family, Rafael says he was handcuffed and immediately deported more than 700 miles from Ciudad Juarez. In his last message to us, he said he vows to keep trying until he makes it to the U.S.

Then there's the Mota (ph) family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Columbia.

CULVER (on camera): Columbia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Panama.

CULVER: Panama.

CULVER (voice over): Four weeks ago, nine-year-old Ruby (ph) told me all the countries she traveled through just to get to Mexico. Their dream destination sketched out. We caught up with them, still in Mexico, now renting a small home, no kitchen, no heating, Ruby still without a school, but determined.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language).

CULVER: She wants to learn English. They no longer live at the encampment because those tents no longer exist. In this messy clash with Mexican police late last month, the migrants living here were forced to leave.

[09:25:08]

Tents and blankets burned as the space was cleared out.

Ciudad Juarez mayor, Cruz Perez Cuellar, tells me the migrants were offered city shelters.

MAYOR CRUZ PEREZ CUELLAR, CIUDAD JUAREZ, MEXICO: It was dangerous for them to be there and we have place to offer them.

CULVER: He warns many migrants have become vulnerable targets of organized crime, a reason Francisco, a dad to young kids, desperately wants out. The family's tried to cross twice before.

CULVER (on camera): Can you stay here in Mexico to live and work?

CULVER (voice over): I really don't like the idea of staying here, he tells me. He fears the dangers of child trafficking, cartels and more.

Ciudad Juarez, once known as the murder capital of the world, still dangerous. Despite the uncertainties, at night, hundreds lined the U.S. side of the Rio Grande, lighting fires to keep warm in the freezing cold, hoping they'll be granted asylum, a seemingly endless stream of migrants of different backgrounds, but with the same goal.

The Mota (ph) family also getting ready to cross, making the difficult decision to leave behind their dog, Linda (ph), who's been with them since the start, staying with a caretaker in Mexico. A tearful good- bye, but Francisco believes his family's future, a safer one, is on the other side.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CULVER: The Mota family, Jim and Erica, had planned to cross where everyone else was crossing, the stones right over there. But that is not possible anymore because of the infrastructure that's now in place, the barbed wire. And you can hear some shouting. That is some of the folks who are the migrants on this, the Mexican side, speaking across to the National Guardsmen who are using a megaphone to tell them, you cannot cross here, it's illegal, you've got to go to the bridge.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. So much to witness there.

David Culver, thanks so much.

Just ahead here, a shocking security failure at a Uvalde school. An inspector posing as an intruder during a safety audit able to gain access to the school through an unlocked door.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. We are also just minutes away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Market futures, they're flat heading into the day. The Dow, S&P and Nasdaq all ended the day down on Monday. That's the fourth day in a row stocks have dropped amid continuing fears of a recession. Big companies are set to release earnings today, including big ones like FedEx and Nike. We're going to keep on top of all of this. Please do stay with us.

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