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Soon: High-Stakes House Meeting On Trump's Taxes; Jan. 6 Panel Refers Trump To DOJ For Criminal Prosecution; Biden Has Until 5 P.M. To Respond To Migrant Rule Extension Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 20, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: How Tuesday is treating you right? I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

We are on top of several big stories this afternoon. First, it is decision day for Congress on Donald Trump's taxes. Next hour, the House Ways and Means Committee will decide whether to release details of former President Trump's tax returns to the public. We're also tracking the fallout from the unprecedented actions of the January 6 committee. For the first time in American history, Congress recommended criminal charges against a former president. Now, the committee accused Trump of four federal crimes including inciting an insurrection.

Also today, the Biden administration is just a few hours left to respond after the Supreme Court put a temporary hold on ending Title 42. That Trump administration rule allows officials to turn migrants away at the border because of pandemic-era concerns.

As a lot to get to, let's start with Trump's tax returns. CNN's Lauren Fox is live on Capitol Hill. So, first, what do we know about the meeting that's going to happen pretty soon?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in just under an hour, Victor, we expect that the House Ways and Means Committee will convene this meeting, all eyes are going to be on whether or not they decide to release any of former President Donald Trump's tax information to the public. We expect that once this meeting begins, they will vote to go into a closed-door session. Everyone will be kicked out of the room, then they'll deliberate. That could go on for several hours. After that meeting, they will open it back up to the public and they will have a vote on what they want to do.

Now, we don't know what their decision will be or what information they are looking potentially to release publicly. Is that going to be full tax returns? Is that going to be some kind of comprehensive report? But we are going to be watching very closely. Obviously, it's a momentous day, given the fact that this fight started years ago, Victor. This is something that House Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal vowed to do when Democrats won back the House in 2018. And today, almost four years later, it's something that they are going to have to make a decision about, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Lauren, we'll see you at the top of the next hour. Thank you.

The January 6 committee now, it describes its report recommending criminal charges against former President Trump as a "roadmap to justice." The decision on whether to charge him will be up to the Department of Justice. Now, the DOJ has its own investigation, as you know, but will now have access to the committee's transcripts and their findings. All of those files. The panel plans to release its full report beginning tomorrow.

CNN political correspondent Sara Murray is with us now. So, what does this mean for DOJ to finally get access to the committee's work?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, this underlying evidence is really what DOJ has wanted all the time -- this whole time. They've really wanted the transcripts, in part, because it's important to their own investigation, you know. They can see if they talk to the same witnesses, if they maybe said something different to the committee than what they're saying to prosecutors, that's important for them.

Also, they're going to be looking to see if there is any actual evidence either in the committee's report or in these transcripts that there may have been people trying to obstruct this congressional investigation or trying to tamper with witnesses who were part of this congressional investigation. That kind of stuff can be important for DOJ, Victor.

BLACKWELL: We're also learning some new information about the special counsel, Jack Smith, appointed to oversee the DOJ investigations, plural. What can you tell us about that?

MURRAY: That's right. We've heard a lot of Jack Smith, but we haven't seen much of him. He has been in Europe. He's been recovering from a bike accident. My colleague, Paula Reid, has told us that he will be returning to the U.S. in early January. Part of what he wants to do is he wants to set up an office outside of the Justice Department, get these prosecutorial teams under one roof in a special counsel's office. That has not happened yet. So, we expect that to happen.

But again, these investigations, the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation, the January 6 investigation that the Justice Department is conducting, these have been ongoing but obviously, him being here back here in the U.S. will have a more day-to-day role in overseeing these investigations no longer remotely, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Sara Murray, thank you very much.

Let's bring it now, Elie Honig, CNN's senior legal analyst, and a former federal prosecutor. Elie, let's start with the taxes. The committee said that they wanted them for legislative purposes.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right. BLACKWELL: And let's look at the latest -- the latest filing from the Justice Department. They say that the chairman of House Ways and Means, and we can put the quote up on the screen, explain the importance of individual tax information to the committee's inquiry to learn how the Presidential audit program operates in practice. Also, the chairman also set forth the reasons the committee considers former President Trump's tax information, in particular, to be indispensable to its inquiry into the robustness and objectivity of the Presidential audit program. There doesn't seem to be time for policy, maybe just enough time to release them publicly though.

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HONIG: Yes, it's interesting the way this has all played out. So, when the Ways and Means Committee requested these individual tax returns of Donald J. Trump, they use the federal law that says those returns shall be furnished by the IRS over the Ways and Means upon written request. Donald Trump can challenge this in court. And in court, what the Ways and Means Committee said was, we are not seeking these returns because we want to investigate Donald Trump or exposed Donald Trump. We need these returns because we're considering legislation. We're considering new laws.

Yet, it's always remained a bit of there's a disconnect. Why would you need an individual's private returns in order to consider new legislation that says, well, if there's someone who becomes president or vice president or is running for that they will be audited? It's never been clear why exactly they need his specific returns. And yet here we are, on the brink of the end of this Congress, they've not legislated, they've not taken any serious steps towards legislating yet they're meeting today to discuss potentially making these returns public. I think there's a real inconsistency there.

BLACKWELL: And look, the American people deserve to see these tax returns.

HONIG: Yes.

BLACKWELL: They deserve them before the 2016 election, 2020, and now he's a candidate again.

HONIG: Yes.

BLACKWELL: The question is the -- is this the avenue? Was this the vehicle to release those? This is -- we're going to play for you now the chairman of House Ways and Means Richard Neal. This is April of 2019. Listen closely here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICHARD NEAL, (D-MA): You cannot summarily or arbitrarily just release the tax forms if one were to receive them. That is a clear violation of federal law. So, that's why I think it would be a good idea to have professionals who are nonpartisan to review the forms, and then the Ways and Means Committee would have the opportunity at that point to decide through an up or down vote with full transparency as to whether or not the forms ought to be released to the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Explain that. Does this nonpartisan review then make it OK to release them? What do you hear?

HONIG: No. Representative Neal's half right in that quote that we just heard. He is right that the law, the same law that the Ways and Means Committee used to rightly get those individual tax returns, does say that if the Ways and Means Committee gets the returns of any individual, they have to maintain them confidentially. They can only consider them in closed sessions. Of course, because the law is trying to protect the privacy interests of all people.

And so, representative is -- Neal is correct. But then he sort of pivots to this non sequitur, so we're going to bring in some outside group that's going to tell us whether it's OK. The law tells him you're not supposed to disclose these. So, that's sort of a contrivance I think that Representative Neal is coming up with right there. And we'll see if they stick with that.

BLACKWELL: Does Donald Trump can have some legal recourse?

HONIG: So, interestingly, a lot could depend on the practicalities here. If the Ways and Means Committee comes out today at 4:15 and says we voted, here they are, they're public, nothing Donald Trump can do as a practical matter. But if Ways and Means says we intend to disclose these publicly in two days, Donald Trump can, if he wants, go to court and seek an order blocking that and say this would violate my rights under the law.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's talk January 6 now. The referral has now been sent. If you look at the goings-on of late with the additional subpoenas for testimony and all that Jack Smith is doing, is there a timeline that you see when we could get a decision about a potential indictment?

HONIG: If I'm Jack Smith, the timeline would be yesterday, six months ago, a year ago. I mean, that would have been the ideal time to make a decision on an indictment. Every day that passes is going to make DOJ's job more and more difficult. And by the way, don't take it from me.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HONIG: Jack Smith and Merrick Garland have both recognized that. When Jack Smith was appointed a couple of weeks ago, they both made vanilla public statements. But both of them said -- essentially recognize that time is of the essence. So, Jack Smith, along with the rest of us will be waiting tomorrow for this report to drop. I'm sure he has a team ready to scour through those materials and see one is there -- is there new material in here that we want to use, and two, is there inconsistent or problematic material in here that could complicate our case?

BLACKWELL: As a logistical matter, we're, of course, talking about the January 6 investigation that he's overseeing. There's also the classified documents investigation. Would we have to wait for both of those to be concluded to get a single report or paired reports or decisions on indictments, or could one come before the other?

HONIG: There's no hard and fast rule on this. This will be a discretionary decision for Jack Smith to make. On the one hand, maybe his view will be as soon as one's ready, I'll give it to you. And if they're not ready at the same time, you'll get them one after the other. The other point of view is let's get this all over with at once. So, that's a big decision for Jack Smith.

BLACKWELL: Elie Honig, thank you very much.

HONIG: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: We got a lot happening. If we hear from the administration on Title 42 --

HONIG: I'm here.

BLACKWELL: You'll be back at the top of the next hour, on those taxes. Thank you very much.

All right. There's also plenty of political fallout and reaction from lawmakers on this consequential week for Donald Trump including from Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell, who issued this statement after the January 6 committee hearing. The entire nation knows who was responsible for that day. Beyond that, I don't have any immediate observations.

Joining me now, Alice Stewart, CNN political commentator, Republican strategist, Olivia Troye, a former adviser to Vice President Mike Pence. Alice, let me start with you on that statement from Mitch McConnell. There are some analysts who call this bold, say it's a zinger. This is a major statement from him. Is it? They don't even name him.

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ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, this speaks the truth. This is Senator McConnell speaking the truth. And his feelings are shared by many rational Republicans that I've been speaking with over the last days and weeks. The entire nation does know not only what happened, but how it happened, how it played out, and now they know who's responsible. We're hearing from other top Republican leaders say that they're really disappointed with what happened but they're glad that the facts are out there. And others are saying this is now certainly in the hands of the Justice Department.

But look, while this is now being litigated in the court of law, the court of public opinion is turning on Donald Trump. And we're seeing more and more people see that what we saw throughout the course of this January 6 committee was not just what happened, but we heard it, we saw it, and we felt it. And people understand that that was absolutely wrong. There was no question that this was something that shouldn't have happened. We should have never questioned the outcome of the election. We should have never questioned the certification of the election. And we certainly should not have allowed this insurrection at the Capitol.

But let me also point out this as well, Victor, there are also some Republicans that say that this January 6 committee, they view this as a joke. They say that this was nothing more than an effort just to pass forward criminal referrals. Some even agree with Donald Trump that they look at this as a corrupt process.

But more and more rational Republicans are disagreeing with that. And they are siding more with the McConnell wing of this, that not only should January 6 not have happened, but those responsible like Donald Trump should be held responsible.

BLACKWELL: So, Olivia, your former boss, the former vice president, Mike Pence, is not going as far as some of those Republicans that Alice just mentioned. Let's listen and then we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would hope that they would not bring charges against the former president. I don't -- look I -- as I wrote in my book, I think the president's actions and words on January 6 were reckless. But I don't know that it's --

DANA PERINO, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Criminal.

PENCE: It's criminal --

PERINO: Got it.

PENCE: To take bad advice from lawyers. I hope the Justice Department understands the magnitude of the very idea of --

PERINO: Sure.

PENCE: Indicting a former president of the United States. I think that would be terribly divisive in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Olivia, he's going further than some Republican Senators we've heard from over the last 24 hours or so. And according to Cassidy Hutchinson, former President Trump agreed with the protesters who were chanting, hang Mike Pence. Why is he doing this? Is this a political calculation?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Yes, I think it is. But look, I think Mike Pence is having an identity crisis right now. It's like, who do you want to be? Do you want to be the rational true conservative and pull apart from the MAGA field and actually differentiate yourself from Donald Trump, or do you want to play the Donald Trump apologist repeatedly and continue to coddle that, and then continue to try to court those voters that are never going to come back to you?

Why not show some leadership and strength? Why not stand by McConnell's statement? Why not come forward and say, all of this is just gone too far? It almost led to my death. We need to be going in a different direction, and also the Department of Justice. No one is above the law.

And if Donald Trump did this, which the committee has done a great job of laying out the facts by Republicans, I will say, Republicans who served loyally in the Trump administration, most of these voices were people who were conservatives, people like Judge Luttig, people like Rusty Bowers in Arizona, all of these witnesses actually are part of the GOP. So, to kind of try to spin it and say, oh, it's partisan, which Pence has been doing, and then also kind of attack the DOJ as part of it, and -- you know, I think it's just beyond ridiculous. And then also I think it's reflecting very poorly on him.

STEWART: And, Victor, if I can just follow up.

BLACKWELL: Go ahead.

STEWART: Olivia would know better than most people in terms of Mike Pence is certainly being cautious. And he, like many Republicans, don't want to suffer the fallout of being attacked by Donald Trump, which many people have feared for years. But what we're seeing now is that these criminal referrals give a lot of Republicans permission to turn the page. That gives them permission to look elsewhere and turn their backs on Donald Trump because enough is enough. And now we have options out there with regard to 2024. And I do believe this criminal referral will help that.

BLACKWELL: But, Alice, you say that this is giving Republicans cover to go in a different direction. Trump sent out on his social media page that people who love freedom, rally around me after this, this strengthens me. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Now, you could change out people who love freedom to people who love Trump, this may strengthen him, but is there a good gauge among the electorate of how much this does or does not strengthen him? That's to you, Alice.

STEWART: Well, to your -- sure. His base is going to -- as you said, they are going to solidify behind him and it will probably embolden him his base.

[14:15:03]

But there are a lot of people who have been really disenchanted with Donald Trump and his behavior since he left office. And what he also said in his statement was, he accused the "unselect committee of being corrupt cowards." Look, nothing says corrupt coward like an elected official who send your supporters to the Capitol to do your bidding. And more and more people are recognizing the fact that his behavior that day is simply unacceptable, and certainly is disqualifying for anyone to be the president of the United States in the future.

BLACKWELL: Olivia, let me finish with you on this Republican Congressman-elect George Santos. New York Times to first report, CNN has now corroborated, no records that NYU and Baruch College have, to support his claims that he earned degrees there. His campaign biography included claims of experience at Citigroup and Goldman Sachs, no record of that of those companies. What should Kevin McCarthy do here? And keep in context, that he's still looking for 218 votes. And if this man wanted to, he could say, listen, you've got my vote, but you can't come after me for this question of my credentials.

TROYE: Yes. Look, that's the reality of the situation, right? Kevin McCarthy needs that vote, so I don't think he's going to do anything. What he should do? Well, he should hold this person accountable.

And I think it would be important to do that because it should also speak to the credibility of the Republican Party, which is already waning significantly in terms of how the far-right and the party behaves, and the fact that they are the base of the party right now and their demeanor. And so, do you want this guy sitting there, who basically lied about his entire background now?

Look, there's a really easy way to clear this out for this representative. If this is all false and he's been -- you know, I've seen the attacks, were you saying that it's more left attacking him, well, then he should produce the documents that will refute this and we can clear this up real quickly. And I'll say this, though, I think it's abhorrent about the fact that -- what I find most abhorrent is the fact that he lied potentially about having had employees that died -- that were killed in that Pulse nightclub shooting. I think that is actually just completely disgusting. And I think that speaks to his character that would even fathom. It's like something that would come out of his mouth if it's not true.

BLACKWELL: You know, if it is better than it looks, people will rush to tell you. Olivia Troye, Alice Stewart, thank you.

STEWART: Thanks, Victor.

BLACKWELL: The Biden administration faces a 5:00 p.m. deadline to respond to the Supreme Court after Justice Roberts -- Chief Justice Roberts put on hold the termination of Title 42. There is new reaction to the ruling on both sides of the border. We have that for you next.

And with flu and COVID cases high, we'll tell you how to keep viruses from impacting your holiday plans. That is important. That is ahead. Stay with us.

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[14:21:40]

BLACKWELL: The Biden administration has a little more than two hours now to respond to the Supreme Court. Chief Justice John Roberts issued an order keeping Title 42 in place temporarily. That's the Trump-era policy that was set to expire this week. It allows for the quick expelling of migrants illegally entering the U.S. because of the pandemic. There is a lot of uncertainty about what happens now at the border. CNN's David Culver is in Juarez. DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Victor, first are really important to understand the context of where we are physically so as to understand what has played out overnight and why it's so significant. We're on the Mexican side of the U.S.-Mexico border. This is Ciudad Juarez. This is the staging area for many migrants for the past several weeks, that is no longer full of migrants.

Now, that's in part because Mexican officials have cleared them out and tried to dissuade them from coming here. But now, as of today, it's because of what's happening on the U.S. side. So, normally folks were crossing over these stones right here, it was a simple crossing for many, some would even go back and forth to help others across. They leave their clothes and they'd go up and start being processed by border patrol in the U.S. But overnight, we saw barbed wire being rolled out, a convoy of Humvees coming in, and you see them all lined up here and they have now prevented people from trying to cross.

In fact, a few migrants, just as we've been here who have made that attempt have been told you cannot come this way. It is illegal to cross the Rio Grande and to try to be processed in this manner. Instead, they're directing people to go all the way down to the formal crossing, if they want to be considered for asylum. So, that's where they're directing a lot of these migrants. Nonetheless, some of these migrants still have the focus of December 21, thinking that's when title 42 will be lifted.

Of course, we know now because of the Chief Justice. That is not the case. Title 42 staying in effect for now. And so, for those migrants, there's a lot of confusion, frustration, many of them feel lost and yet they now are looking at a physical barrier that is preventing them from trying to continue the process of entering the U.S., Victor.

BLACKWELL: David Culver for us there. Thank you, David.

Since David filed that report, CNN saw this, a group of four migrants defying that newly installed fencing. You can see they were arrested there on the American side of the border. Some cities are still preparing as if the policies and is imminent. Migrant shelters fear they will not be able to withstand this expected surge. CNN's Rosa Flores is with us now from Brownsville, Texas. What are you seeing there?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, what we're seeing here is a downgrade in the temperature of anxiety since we've learned that Title 42 at least for now is staying in place. But let me show you where I am because this is Brownsville, Texas and this is the border wall where it meets the Brownsville-Matamoros Port of entry.

Now, this is where normally legal crossings happen every day. Now, we are just yards from a camp that's on the other side of the border. I'm going to ask our control room to take this shot because this is a live drone shot by our CNN drone pilot Al Mesh Bergen (PH). What you're looking at is this is a camp of thousands of migrants in Matamoros, Mexico. Now, from talking to advocates there, these are mostly Venezuelans and Haitians and they've been waiting there for the lifting of Title 42. [14:25:03]

I've been on the phone with them, and they tell me that they are happy, they're joyous because Title 42 is staying in place, which is counterintuitive because Title 42 allows Border Patrol agents to swiftly return them back to Mexico. But they explain that the U.S. government has provided so many exceptions to Title 42 that they would rather wait in these camps in Mexico to wait for their turn.

Now, I want to show you where we are exactly. And why this is important because these migrants say that they want to cross the border legally. Take a look here, if you take through -- take a look through the border wall, you see, those are the legal pathways. That is the bridge leading from Matamoros, Mexico to Brownsville, Texas.

Now if we could take the mass camera from our CNN engineer, Michael Humphrey because you'll be able to get a bird's eye view of what we're looking at here. And here's why it's important. From talking to the migrants that I've been talking to, that's where they want to go. That's where they want to cross legally into the United States.

Now, their concern was that if Title 42 lifted, that they would not be allowed by the U.S. government to walk to this port of entry and seek asylum. That's what they're hoping for. And hear this. They were telling me that what they were doing is they were preparing inflatable mattresses and life vests and ropes to prepare to cross the border illegally if they were not allowed to go to those bridges that you're taking a look at, to seek asylum. And so that anxiety has been building, that anxiety has been coming down ever since they've learned that Title 42 is in place at least for now.

Now, this is what the scene looks like here where I am. It's a very different scene in El Paso, Texas. If we can go to that video because what you see there is it changed overnight. Overnight, we saw National Guard come in and what I want to make very clear is this. We have seen that during other surges. All this is part of Governor Greg Abbott's operation Lonestar. He has invested about $4 billion in this type of security. Ever since March of 2020, Governor Greg Abbott has sent hundreds of boots to the border -- all along the border to secure the gaps that are left whenever there are surges.

Now, this is important, Victor, to understand because here is the key and why this is important. Whenever there are migrant surges, Border Patrol usually has to take Border Patrol agents out of their role of law enforcement along the border so they can process migrants. With Governor Greg Abbott's role in sending border -- in sending National Guard is to fill those gaps to make sure that the southern border is safe, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Rosa Flores with all the context and the angles there for us in Brownsville, thank you very much.

Let's bring it now Congressman Vicenta Gonzalez. He represents a Texas District which includes the U.S.-Mexico border. Congressman, good to have you.

REP. VICENTE GONZALEZ, (D-TX): Good to be with you.

BLACKWELL: Let's start here. If Title 42 ends tomorrow, later this week, what does that mean for your district, for your constituents?

GONZALEZ: Well, clearly, it's a huge concern all along to the south Texas border where migrants had been building up on the other side of the border and a heavy lift for small communities like McAllen, like Brownsville like Weslaco, like Harlingen, and all the way down the river to handle. As you know, many of these communities have to use their own tax dollars to address the problem immediately. And sometimes it takes years to being reimbursed by the federal government. We're still in a pandemic. I think most people here in South Texas agree that enforcing Title 42, at least for the near future is a good idea.

BLACKWELL: Do you think that the COVID numbers, we are seeing some surges, that they support a case for that?

GONZALEZ: They really do. They -- I think they give the president all the cover in the world that he needs to hold Title 42 in place. I think the administration has been under a lot of pressure from some migrant activists to lift it and allow people in. I personally have been pushing the idea of a Safe Zone Act, which is a proposal to create a safe zone on the border of Guatemala and Mexico, where migrants can come at that juncture and process their asylum claim at that juncture. And do everything that we're doing here on my southern border processing asylum claims, do it 1500 miles away from the border.

And if we're going to allow them in under the credible fear standard, which is a pretty low standard, we should allow them in at that juncture, let them go to the airport, and fly to their final destination. And this would do one -- this would do two things. One, it would take the pressure off our border and allow Border Patrol and law enforcement to do what they're supposed to be doing and what they've been trained to do.

And it will also take the cartel element who's moving all these migrants through Mexico and moving them around from enriching themselves. Last year, we calculated that cartels had made $5 billion bringing people to our southern border, and this would clip them at the knees.

BLACKWELL: Yes.