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Did Mark Meadows Burn Documents in White House?; Supreme Court Keeps Title 42 in Place; Southwest Airlines Under Fire. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 28, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:47]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Abby Phillip in Washington. Thank you for joining us today.

It is the nightmare that just won't end, Southwest Airlines canceling thousands more flights, with airports coast to coast already packed, more than 4,800 flights today and tomorrow no longer on the books, nearly 16,000 canceled since Thursday.

All week, we have been meeting miserable passengers, and Southwest says it'll be days before this all clears up. Busloads of stranded customers arriving at Houston Hobby Airport this morning, some on the road for more than 24 hours.

And, at Chicago Midway, this is the sea of luggage that is finally moving. Workers are now scrambling to reunite passengers with their bags.

We will begin with CNN's Nick Valencia, who is at Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport in Atlanta, another major connecting point for Southwest flights.

So, Nick, what is happening there behind you?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hey there, Abby.

The line here behind me is noticeably shorter than it has been the last several days. And that really tells the story today. There's not that many passengers in line because there have been so many cancellations. At this point, since the saga started last week for Southwest Airlines, more than 15,000 flights have been canceled.

Today, another cascade of cancellations. More than 2,500 flights have been canceled, or about 62 percent of those flights from Southwest. And even those who do have flights today, there's really a lack of confidence that they're going to get to where they need to go. And at this point, they just want to get home. They just want to get to where their final destination is.

Earlier, I spoke to a woman named Michelle Smith. She says that she's a long time Southwest flyer for over 20 years. But after going through what she went through this week, she's really questioning that loyalty. And then I also spoke to an 11-year-old girl who had every intention

and plan of getting on her on-time scheduled departing flight today. But when she got to the gate, she encountered a different set of problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE SMITH, AIR TRAVELER: I know been a long time Southwest fan, 20 years Companion Pass holder, travel a lot. This year has been a bad one. They have really disappointed me.

VALENCIA: You have a message to the CEO, if he's watching? What do you say to him?

SMITH: Fix it. Fix it. He's got a lot of loyal fans and he's losing them left and right.

VALENCIA: You doing all right? You got some tears in your eyes? What's going on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I didn't get to see my best friend in Florida.

VALENCIA: Did they tell you that you would be able to fly, and then, last minute, they said that you couldn't fly? Is that what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: So it is a mess here still, perhaps not as mess -- not as much of an optics of a mess as we have seen in past days, but still very much so a headache these passengers are dealing with.

In fact, just off-camera here, I could overhear a woman who has been on hold with the airline for more than an hour, finally got through to a representative, and is trying to rebook her flight. Doesn't seem like she's having much success right now, so a lot of frustration, and that is boiling over to anger for some people here, who just want this to be over, where there seems to be no end in sight to this nightmare -- Abby.

PHILLIP: That sweet little girl, I know there's a lot of heartbreaking stories just like that, Nick. Thank you.

And Southwest's CEO is apologizing, as the Biden administration is now saying they are going to hold the company accountable. So, how and why did it get to this point? And how did it get so bad?

CNN's Matt Egan is on the case.

So, Matt, what have you found out about what's been going on with Southwest that has gotten us to this point?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Abby, this appears to be a case where bad luck has collided with bad planning, right? Because, obviously, Southwest cannot control the weather. And this was

a truly epic storm. It was a storm that also really hit Chicago and Denver. And those are two of Southwest's biggest hubs. But this is not just about Mother Nature. I mean, one of the most stunning things that we have learned this week is that Southwest relies on technology and software and scheduling systems that haven't really changed since the 1990s.

That's according to the head of the Southwest pilots trade union. That's pretty amazing. I mean, think about how much has changed since the 1990s. Think about how old the 1990s look, if you watch an early episode of "Seinfeld." It's kind of alarming that a major airline hasn't really upgraded its system since then.

[13:05:04]

Now, the fact that other airlines have bounced back pretty quickly is also another reminder of how Southwest uses a point-to-point system to get its planes around the country. A lot of other airlines, they use a different system.

And this system that Southwest uses, it seems to work pretty well when the weather is cooperating. But when something goes wrong, it really goes wrong -- Abby.

PHILLIP: Yes, I think a lot of people are used to getting funneled into those hubs, and when you're on Southwest, you go straight to your destination. But that's not great when there's a huge storm.

But the other thing, Matt, is that Southwest was given a ton of money, a bailout during the pandemic. Do we know if any of that was used to address some of these problems, maybe that decades-old system that needs to be upgraded?

EGAN: Well, Abby, that's a good question, because, clearly, one of the criticisms here is that Southwest has not invested enough to update those systems.

And the federal government did hand out $54 billion in aid to airlines during COVID to try to get them through the pandemic, and Southwest alone received more than $7 billion in taxpayer aid. But Congress stipulated that that money was really supposed to be used on payroll and benefits for employees, many of whom would have lost their jobs without federal aid.

It really wasn't intended for updating I.T. systems. And analysts say that it's not realistic to think that that's what Southwest would have done with that money. But, Abby, clearly, the past few days has made it patently obvious that Southwest does need to invest some real money here to make some significant upgrades and to reassure the flying public that something like this won't happen again.

PHILLIP: And what about the other airlines? What are they doing to help passengers who are stranded now because of all of this -- these problems with Southwest?

EGAN: Well, Abby, a lot of people are desperate to get home and they're looking to try to book flights on other airlines.

But they have been shocked to find the price of those air tickets on other airlines. And they're seeing that sometimes over $1,000. One traveler posted a screenshot of a flight between San Diego and Orlando, a last-minute flight, that's costing more than $2,000.

So, now both United and American Airlines have come out with a solution of sorts. They have said that they're going to impose price caps on select routes. This appears to be a direct response to the Southwest meltdown. They haven't really specified what those price caps are. They will, of course, vary from location to location.

But this would certainly come as a relief to people who are just desperate to get to wherever they have been trying to go the last few days, Abby.

PHILLIP: All right. Well, let's hope for some of those folks get a little bit of good news after a bad few days.

Matt, thank you so much.

And my next guest has said that this is the worst disruption he has seen in his 16 years with Southwest. Mike Santoro is the vice president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, and nearly 16,000 flights canceled in the last seven days. But the CEO, Bob Jordan, says he's optimistic that the company will be back on track before next week.

So, Mr. Santoro, do you agree with that? Do you think that's possible?

CAPT. MICHAEL SANTORO, VICE PRESIDENT, SOUTHWEST AIRLINES PILOTS ASSOCIATION: I think is possible.

I mean, canceling the flights yesterday, today, and tomorrow should do pretty much a system reset, get pilots in the right places, and match up with flights and, obviously, the aircraft, which is the whole problem in the first place, just not able to match us up with the aircraft.

PHILLIP: I know that a lot of pilots and crew were just stuck. They weren't able to even themselves get through to people at Southwest.

What are the biggest issues that you're seeing pilots facing today, as we now sit in this, perhaps the second full day of this problem for Southwest?

SANTORO: So, today, we have seen that pilots are able to get through to crew scheduling now. The wait times are much better, down to normal times.

And that's due to, obviously, the reduction in flights, so less pilots having to worry about where they're going, what they're doing, because they just -- now they know, if their flights are canceled, they don't have to do certain things. So that part's better.

And that's going to help alleviate the system too. PHILLIP: And you have blamed this outdated software we were just

discussing with my colleague Matt Egan that Southwest had the opportunity to fix perhaps during the pandemic.

And the airline turned down that opportunity. And it only took government funds for the employee payroll part of the sort of pandemic relief. Do you think it was a mistake to not get government funding to do some of these critical system updates?

SANTORO: No, I mean, I think the pandemic funding was solely to keep us afloat, along with the other airlines. Otherwise, we would have been bankrupt and out of business.

[13:10:00]

So, that money was used to support payroll. There was stipulate -- lots of stipulations imposed upon it by the government on how to use that money. And improving I.T. infrastructure was not one of those things that we could use it on.

So I don't blame them for not doing -- using that money on it. However, I do think they should have -- in the past several years have improved the I.T. infrastructure within the scheduling software. They have known about the problem for a while. The issue is that it's only a 1 percent chance, when you have over 300 or so cancellations -- and that's a roundabout number -- where things go bad, and the system can't keep up with all the changes.

PHILLIP: Before you go, I mean, a lot of frustrated Southwest passengers who are super loyal to this company, what would you say to them today, those who might say, I don't know if I can ever fly on Southwest again?

SANTORO: I would say, remember that Southwest Airlines has the best and safest pilots, 737 pilots, in the world. And when I buy a ticket, that's what I'm looking at.

PHILLIP: All right, Mike Santoro, thank you so much for joining us.

SANTORO: Thanks for having me.

PHILLIP: And as the winter storm is moving out Buffalo, New York, the hardest-hit city, is now preparing for potential flooding as a result of what is called a rapid melt.

And we have just learned that officials will not lift that driving ban there until tomorrow, at the earliest. As of now, the death toll in Erie County stands at 34, with the majority, unfortunately, being in Buffalo. But officials say that that number will probably grow as they start to do these wellness checks. And the National Guard troops began their door-to-door search this morning.

Now turning to the border. Along the U.S. border with Mexico, thousands of migrants just found out that the legal limbo that they're in could drag on well into the next year. This is after the Supreme Court just yesterday decided to allow Title 42 to remain in place indefinitely. That is the pandemic era policy that allows the federal officials to expel migrants before they have received an asylum hearing.

Now, conservative Justice Neil Gorsuch sided with the court's liberal justices in opposing the policy, but the majority allowed it to stay in place for now.

CNN's Leyla Santiago is in the Texas border town of El Paso, and CNN White House reporter Priscilla Alvarez is also here with the latest.

Let's start with you, Leyla.

Leyla, what is happening on the ground where you are?

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right, well, Abby, let me kind of walk you around, so you can see where I am.

I'm at a church. And this serves as a shelter for many of these migrants that you see are lining the sidewalks. These are older men, younger men, families, children, toddlers. I have seen babies out here, many of them from Venezuela, who will tell you they are fleeing a very bad economic situation, poverty, as well as violence, when you ask them why they are here.

And something else that comes up repeatedly, the number 42, right, because Title 42, that decision was made by the Supreme Court yesterday, and many people here are kind of spreading the word of what that will mean, and many of them seeking clarity, trying to figure out exactly what that will mean, for them, anyway.

I want to share with you a conversation I had with a mother of two from Venezuela when I shared the news with her. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: She says it feels bad. They were hoping for something else, a different decision. She says she just can't live in Venezuela anymore because of the crime and the way of life there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: And so uncertainty lingers. Fear of what is to come in the future is very much alive here.

I mean, just take a look behind me. You have families lining the building, searching for donations that are dropped off randomly here to have coats and hats and just to try to stay warm. So, that is how it feels for the migrants.

The city, on the other hand, saying that they too are still trying to figure out exactly how they will move forward. They are currently preparing two vacant schools for a potential surge of more migrants heading this way -- Abby.

PHILLIP: Thank you for that, Leyla. And, Priscilla, on another part of this, we're also learning about

this new warning about domestic extremism here in the United States related to the Title 42 decision. What can you tell us about that?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Abby.

Just days ago, the Department of Homeland Security disseminated a memo to stakeholders about potential domestic extremism with the lifting of Title 42. Remember that the Biden administration was on track to end this authority on December 21 because of a lower court order that required them to do so.

[13:15:13]

And with the Department of Homeland Security noticed was an increase in online chatter about that and targeting migrants and critical infrastructure. So, some of the instances that they saw social media users say was, for example, firearms attacks, placement of land mines along migration routes, and shooting electrical substations to potentially disrupt immigration facilities.

Now, this underscores the concern leading up to the lifting of Title 42, but also the grievances over immigration policy, and also the animosity against immigrants that have often fueled extremist acts. You could just remember, in 2019, the shooting in Walmart.

Now, the Department of Homeland Security is obviously monitoring this. And the Supreme Court, as you heard from Leyla, has stopped the end of Title 42 for now, but all of this of grave concern moving forward.

PHILLIP: Priscilla Alvarez and Leyla Santiago, both of you, thank you very much.

And still ahead for us: It is an explosive claim with serious legal implications, new transcripts from the January 6 Committee alleging that former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows burned documents roughly a dozen times in the White House. We will discuss.

Plus, the United States is now considering new restrictions for travelers coming from China, as Beijing rolls back a number of COVID restrictions.

And the calls to resign are growing for the man who admitted he lied about nearly his entire record, but Republican leaders are still silent on the fate of George Santos.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:23]

PHILLIP: We are learning of new and shocking examples of the Trump White House ignoring important protocols.

Former aide Cassidy Hutchinson has told the January 6 Committee that she witnessed Chief of Staff Mark Meadows burning documents in his White House office fireplace. That's according to newly released transcripts from the committee.

Let's bring in senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Paula, it's just amazing. But what new details are you hearing from these Hutchinson transcripts, in addition to her bombshell testimony that we have already heard ourselves?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Right.

It's amazing that, even after that bombshell testimony, there's still more information that she's revealing. And, in these transcripts, she told the committee that she observed Meadows burning documents approximately a dozen times, she said, once or twice a week between December 2020 and mid-January 2021.

She testified -- quote -- "So, throughout the day, he would put more logs on the fireplace to keep it burning throughout the day. And I recall roughly a dozen times where he would throw a few more pieces of paper in it when he put more logs on the fireplace."

Now, it's important contextually, Abby, to note that several of these burning sessions happen shortly after meetings that he had with Representative Scott Perry. And he is a Republican who has been linked to efforts to try to use the Justice Department to block the outcome of the election.

And, again, a lot of questions raised about, what are you burning and why? But these are not questions that the January 6 Committee were able to ask former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, because, after some initial engagement with the committee, he refused to sit down and answer questions.

And if we take a few steps back and just look at the totality here, so many questions about the final days of the Trump administration and handling of records, right? We have the potential mishandling of classified information down at Mar-a-Lago, our own reporting, questions about how well they were able to comply with the Presidential Records Act.

We have reports of former president tearing up documents, leaving pieces of them, people taping them back together. And then here you have the burning of documents, so a lot of questions, and it's very likely that special counsel Jack Smith will have some questions about what exactly was going on in Mark Meadows' fireplace.

PHILLIP: Paula, we're also learning about another White House aide, Johnny McEntee, who talked to the committee about Trump's reaction and his anger toward Vice President Mike Pence.

What did he say to the committee?

REID: That's exactly right.

We know the former president was not pleased with his vice president when he refused to block the certification of the election results. But it was interesting in his testimony to kind of watch the evolution. And he said that he overheard the former president pressing his vice president to -- quote -- "do the right thing." And then, when he didn't, he turned real fast on Pence, in conversations, would just say "effing Pence" this, "effing Pence" that.

Also interesting, Abby, in these transcripts, we learn more. It really builds on what we already knew about the extent to which people were seeking pardons or the former president was trying to hand them out. He says that the former president thought about potential blanket pardons for people who participated in the January 6 riot, but that idea was rejected by the White House counsel.

Trump also floated the idea of blanket pardons for many of his White House staffers, saying he didn't want -- quote -- "they" to be able to come after his staffers for -- quote -- "any little thing."

Again, the White House counsel rejecting that idea, but saying, look, no one here has done anything wrong., Unclear, Abby, if the White House counsel knew what Mark Meadows was up to in his office with all of those fireplace logs.

PHILLIP: Thank you so much for all of that, Paula Reid.

Now, let's continue this conversation with our senior CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers.

[13:25:03]

Jen, thank you so much for joining us for this.

This burning of documents, it's got to be something that the Justice Department and special counsel Jack Smith is very much interested in.

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: A hundred percent, Abby.

I mean, this kind of evidence is like gold to prosecutors. First of all, of course, it could support freestanding criminal charges, if they can demonstrate that these actually were documents subject to the Presidential Records Act. If they were inculpatory against Meadows and Trump and all the other plotters, it could be a destruction of evidence charge.

But equally important to them as they sift through the evidence for a January 6 set of charges, it's consciousness of guilt evidence, and it's the kind of thing that juries inherently understand and get that, if you do something that you know is wrong, you try to cover it up.

So, throwing documents in a fireplace is really phenomenal evidence as to the plot itself, and also really great leverage for prosecutors, as they think about Mark Meadows as a potential defendant, but also a potential cooperator. So they're going to view this kind of evidence as being very important to them. And they're certainly going to try to run down what actually those documents were.

PHILLIP: The transcripts also reveal, similarly, that Meadows around this time was also telling staffers to keep White House meetings in a close hold, to not put them on the books. Does that add to what you're describing here, this idea of a

consciousness of guilt, they're trying to keep some things secret, keep them from being revealed broadly outside of the White House?

RODGERS: Definitely.

It's consciousness of guilt evidence. And I will say one other thing about these pieces of evidence that are coming out that happened not after the fact, like with witnesses testifying in front of the committee, but at the time trying to cover up what was happening. It really shows also that this was a sophisticated, complicated plot.

This wasn't something that was just spur of the moment, spontaneous, people getting together. This was a multipronged conspiracy that was purposefully executed. And, along the way, they knew what they were doing, and they were covering it up.

So I think, this evidence, to the extent that DOJ can develop it in a way that's usable and demonstrates what they were actually covering up, will be really, really valuable.

PHILLIP: Are you surprised at all that some of this did not come out during the January 6 actual hearings, and, rather, were sort of left in the cut -- on the cutting room floor of these transcripts?

RODGERS: You know, a little bit. I thought that they were trying to show us the greatest hits.

And, in my view, some of this stuff is in that greatest hits bucket. But they had a limited amount of time to grab the attention of the public. I think they did that very effectively. And to the extent that they're still trying to grab the public's attention with these release of the transcripts right before the Congress turns over, they're doing a good job of it now.

So it's actually probably pretty smart to hold some blockbuster evidence for these last few days, so that the public is paying attention to the report itself. So, you could look at it either way.

One thing that's impressed me as we see these transcripts now, finally, is, we're not really seeing exculpatory evidence. You might expect that there was some good stuff in there for the former president and the other conspirators. We're not really seeing that.

So, I think that the way they have done it is pretty effective, even if some of this would have also been really great to see back when they were holding their public hearings.

PHILLIP: And, of course, now the special counsel has the opportunity to dig much further into some of these threads as well.

Jen Rodgers, thank you so much for joining us on this.

RODGERS: Thanks, Abby.

PHILLIP: And on this important headline, the Chinese government is rolling back COVID restrictions, as cases there soar, and now the U.S. is saying it's considering new measures for travelers from China.

We will have more on that next.

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