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New January 6 Committee Transcripts Released; Flu Season; Trump's Taxes Released; Suspect Arrested in Idaho Murder Investigation. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired December 30, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:13]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Hello. Good afternoon. I'm Abby Phillip in Washington.

We begin this hour with a major development in that horrifying murder mystery in Idaho. CNN has learned that a suspect has been arrested in the investigation of the stabbing deaths of four college students in their off-campus home. That's according to two federal law enforcement sources.

The Moscow, Idaho, Police Department has announced a news conference for later this afternoon.

And CNN's Veronica Miracle joins us from Moscow, Idaho, right now.

Veronica, what are we learning at this hour?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Abby, just in the last few minutes, CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell, Lauren del Valle and Mark Morales revealed that Bryan Kohberger, a 28-year-old, has been arrested in connection to these murders here.

He was arrested, according to federal sources, in Pennsylvania, completely on the other side of the country, thousands of miles away. This arrest comes after seven weeks of painstaking investigation by the Moscow Police Department, the FBI, and other agencies who have descended upon this town to try and figure out who could have possibly murdered four students in their sleep.

That's according to the coroner. The coroner here in Latah County has said that those four students were likely murdered in their sleep. Some of them showed signs of defensive wounds, that they tried to fight off the attacker. And now we understand that federal sources are saying a 28-year-old man was arrested in connection to these murders.

As you mentioned, there is a 1:00 p.m. press conference today. I spoke with Moscow police this morning. And beyond the fact that there is going to be a development and an announcement, they wouldn't tell me more than that. But now we understand it is likely that they will be announcing this arrest.

Now, during this entire investigation, nearly seven weeks, there has been very few details revealed. It frustrated the community and it frustrated some of the families. At least one family has been very outspoken about the fact that no information has been released this entire time, besides a clue here, a clue there, and the fact that they got so many leads.

The families and the community were really wanting answers. But the entire time, the Moscow Police Department was very steadfast in keeping the information close, saying that they didn't want to disrupt the integrity of the investigation. And now, nearly seven weeks later, we have this information that an arrest has been made in Pennsylvania.

And, of course, we will bring you more information as it becomes available -- Abby.

PHILLIP: Veronica Miracle, thank you for that.

And let's continue this conversation now. I want to bring in Jonathan Wackrow, a CNN law enforcement analyst and a former Secret Service agent.

So, Jonathan, as Veronica just noted, investigators faced a lot of criticism for not saying a whole lot about this case even to the parents of the victims. But, in the meantime, seven weeks have passed, tens of thousands of tips coming in. Does it all make more sense to you now that there has been a suspect arrested?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, listen, I think that what we're highlighting here is the challenge that homicide detectives face day in and day out across the country, where they want to provide information back to victims' families to try to bring some resolution, but they have to maintain the integrity of the case.

And when you have a very complicated case such as this one in Moscow, investigators had to keep all information, anything of evidentiary value and all their leads contained, as to not have leakage to jeopardize the prosecution and bringing individuals to justice.

And what we're seeing right now is the beginning of that investigative resolution to these mysterious killings that for a long time have left the public baffled, right? But, in the background, investigators, both locally and federally and at the state level, have been working jointly to try to bring resolution.

We saw that resolution this morning with a suspect arraigned in Pennsylvania court. Now, I think a couple of things that are highlighting to me right now with this -- with the suspect in custody is that the charges were a Pennsylvania statute, right, not federal.

So, even though the Federal Bureau of Investigation was involved in this case, in that they were present during the arrest today, the suspect was arraigned before a Pennsylvania magistrate. And what does that mean? It means that they're being held for extradition back to Idaho, where they will face a myriad of charges, to include first- degree murder.

PHILLIP: Right.

WACKROW: Well, potentially, he could face those charges.

PHILLIP: And, Jonathan, I do want to ask you.

I mean, we don't know a ton about this suspect at the moment. But we do know that he is 28 years old, which is not the same age as these victims, who were college-age.

[13:05:08]

What does that tell you, if anything, about what relationship he may have had with them? I mean, I think that this has been a big part of the mystery is no clues as to who this -- the person could have been who could have carried out this crime. And now you have a suspect who seems to be significantly older than the victims here.

WACKROW: Yes, listen, it's too -- I don't want to speculate on what the delta in age actually could mean.

What we do know is that this individual -- what we really want to know today from this press conference is, how does this individual really fit into the rubric of the investigation, right? And I think there's a lot of questions that we have.

Is this individual the primary suspect that committed this horrific crime? Are there any other suspects that are out there? Does -- is there anybody else that provided material support to this individual as they fled from Idaho quite a distance across the United States, to finally be apprehended in Pennsylvania?

So there's a lot that we don't know. And this afternoon at 1:00 p.m., when we hear law enforcement officials present what they can thus far in this investigation, hopefully, some of those questions will be answered.

PHILLIP: Whoever carried out this crime has been on the loose now for seven weeks. In terms of evidence, how difficult is it now for prosecutors to put together a case for anyone who might eventually be charged with this crime?

WACKROW: Well, listen, I mean, I think that, again, we're going to hear exactly how this case came together, what items of evidentiary value were put towards the arrest for -- the application for the arrest of this individual?

And, again, are there anybody else that provided material support afterwards? Investigators have a lot of tools at their disposal as they're going through the course of an investigation. First of all, there's the crime scene itself. But then there are other things. If they have a suspect that they have focused on, they can look at all of the digital evidence that -- really the digital trace of this person, who are they connected to, bank accounts, social media, e-mail, et cetera, to try to figure out, were they acting solely or were they part of a larger group?

Were they influenced by anything? So a lot of those things, again, don't want to speculate, but investigators do have a lot of resources available to them. And, again, I want to just stress that I know that it's frustrating for the family and the public to have all of these questions and not have answers. Seven weeks is a long time.

But what we saw was that following that investigative process, it looks like we're going to bring at least one individual to justice here.

PHILLIP: Well, we will find out a lot more, hopefully, about what has transpired here at 4:00 p.m. Eastern time, when they hold that press conference.

Jonathan Wackrow, thank you so much for joining us.

And we turn now to former President Trump's taxes. After a bitter fight to keep them secret, six years of his tax returns are now in the public domain. That means the American people now for the first time will get to know and get to see the most detailed look yet at documents that go over every major presidential candidate for decades before has shared, except for Trump.

Let's get right now to Lauren Fox right now to see what those returns show.

Lauren, the returns are finally out in the public domain. What are you seeing in them?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and there's a couple of key takeaways, one of which we had an indication of, given that the Joint Committee on Taxation put out a report last week.

But we have now been able to verify with the underlying documents that Donald Trump paid very little in taxes in some of the first years of his presidency, in fact, in 2016 and 2017, just $750 each of those years in federal income taxes, then, in 2018, and 2019, a bit more, nearly -- more than $1 million in federal income taxes, and then nothing in 2020, the last year of his presidency, Abby, and that he often used projecting losses forward as a way to reduce his tax bill.

We also are learning a couple of other interesting pieces of information, one of them just questions, and this was raised again by the Joint Committee on Taxation's report last week, about how Trump used his tax process and tax-paying process to potentially avoid paying taxes.

One of the questions that was raised by the Joint Committee on Taxation is that he got a large amount of interest from loans that he said he got -- he had given to his children. And, at some points, that interest may have been even more than what the market value at the time was.

[13:10:00]

And that has raised some questions for the JCT, and it raised some questions for an accountant that was looking over these that CNN spoke with as well. And I think that that's interesting. That is something potentially further down the line that potentially auditors or other accountants could look more deeply at.

The other question that was raised is, he -- in one instance in the Aerospace LLC, because, remember these tax returns included some business entities, he claimed that he had made $42,965 in profit, then, on the same tax return in the same year, claimed that he had an expenses $42,965.

The same accountant that CNN talked to said that it would be almost statistically impossible for those two numbers to be the exact same. But if you have those two numbers in your tax returns, then your tax bill is reduced, right? So that is another thing that potentially could be looked at.

There are so many pages of documents, Abby, here, it's going to take a long time to pore over all this information. But those are just some initial findings. Obviously, Republicans will take control of the House of Representatives in just a matter of days. This was really one of the last moments Democrats could take in this step to release these returns -- Abby.

PHILLIP: All right, Lauren Fox, thank you so much for that.

And let's now bring in our tax expert, Ed McCaffery, and David Cay Johnston, the author of "It's Even Worse Than You Think: What the Trump Administration Is Doing to America," and also CNN political commentator and former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania Charlie Dent.

Ed, I want to start with you, because Trump has tried to keep these taxes hidden for many years. What do you see in there that perhaps explains why this is an issue that, by all accounts, is something that he is very sensitive about and has been since he was running for president?

ED MCCAFFERY, TAX LAW EXPERT: Sure.

And I think the good news at this time of year is, maybe this is the last time we will have to be talking about Trump tax returns, which I'm sure you will be happy about and other cable news anchors might be happy about.

A lot of detail in what we saw today, but I think the big picture is we have already known it. We have noted it from "New York Times" reporting. We have known it from the reporting of David Cay Johnston, who you're going to hear from in a minute.

Trump is a very bad businessman. He loses money. He lost money from the casinos, to the golf clubs, with vodka, the university, and Trump Steaks in between. He loses money. He pays no taxes mainly because he loses money. He sometimes makes money, like when he's a reality TV show star. But, for the most part, this is a man who, he's a poor businessman.

He loses other people's money. He generates losses from that. He pays no taxes. Like a lot of American billionaires, he pays no taxes. We learned that the IRS did nothing really serious to question or challenge or even do the mandatory audits.

So I think we don't necessarily see anything new. But I think it's the dog that's not barking, the taxes that are not paid, the IRS investigations that are not pursued. And it's characteristic, I think, of a tax system that's broken and an IRS that's not up to the task of auditing the wealthiest Americans.

PHILLIP: And, to that point, a lot of what is in here is legal. People may not like it, but it's legal.

But I do want to ask you about some points that Lauren just raised. There were some big question marks, these loans to his children and the interest to them he received, expenses that equaled the exact same amount as the profit that he filed. Are those red flags to you?

MCCAFFERY: Oh, sure. I mean, there are plenty of red flags.

And we now know from the Manhattan DA investigation they were able to get a criminal conviction of the Trump Organization for tax fraud. That's pretty rare. It's hard to get a criminal conviction for tax fraud. So, like his father, Fred, Trump consistently pushes against the line of propriety, and often goes over it.

There are many, many more things than the few details your reporter mentioned, overvalued conservation easements, writing off personal expenses as business expenses, putting the kids on the payroll. Donald Trump himself was on Fred Trump's payroll. He was an executive in his father's company when he was 9 years old.

So, this game has been going on for decades. It's pretty standard, if crude, tax avoidance. And Trump often takes it over the line. And then, of course, there's no accountability, because it doesn't look like he's ever really audited, even when there's an IRS rule that says he's supposed to be audited...

PHILLIP: Right. He was not.

MCCAFFERY: ... which is what happened when he was president.

PHILLIP: He was not audited for those first two years that he was president.

David, to you.

This morning, Trump responded saying that these returns show how -- quote -- "proudly successful" he has been.

[13:15:05]

What do you think that they show?

DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Oh, they don't show he's successful at all.

They clearly show that he took advantage of every lawful method of tax avoidance, including ones he lobbied Congress for in 1992, successfully lobbied them, for that were enormously beneficial to him. But they also show at a minimum, 26 examples of where Donald crossed the line and engaged in what I believe can be prosecuted as criminal tax fraud.

Donald, in 1984, filed tax returns that showed businesses -- a business with zero revenue and $600,000 of expenses. Both the city of New York and the state of New York after trials Donald demanded, the judges held these were civil tax fraud. Well that put him on notice he can't do that.

He did it when 26 times over the six years. And that is powerful evidence of criminal intent. He knew he shouldn't do it. He did it anyway. And why did he get away with it? Well, being in control of the federal government, he blocked the turning over of his tax returns. He blocked the audits that are required by law.

And, for years, he didn't receive any serious attention from the IRS auditors.

PHILLIP: Charlie, over to you on the political end of this.

Trump himself, when he ran for president, he was the first president since Jimmy Carter to not release his tax returns back in 2016. But Republicans, including the soon-to-be-chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, Kevin Brady, say that this is going to create a new precedent, that he says that it would allow for the release of tax return to private citizens, political enemies, businesses and labor leaders and even, he says, Supreme Court justices.

Do you think that this is really a new precedent for all of those other people or just for people running for president, who in the past have already released their tax returns?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let me say, I agree what David and Ed has said about Donald Trump's tax avoidance schemes that are really reprehensible and may be criminal. I don't know.

But I also agree with Kevin Brady that, look, if Congress wants to pass a law, to say that a presidential candidate must release his or her tax returns, then pass a law to do so. Yes, Donald Trump violated the norms and traditions of releasing the tax returns. That's his right. Now, I don't agree with it, but that was his right.

But I do fear that they may be weaponizing, the release of tax returns with this action. And I have a lot of respect for Chairman Neal. But, look, I could see the Republicans turning around and saying, well, hey, how about Sam Bankman-Fried? Wouldn't we all like to know what he paid in tax after what he just did?

I can see Republicans say, how about Hunter Biden and his business dealings? Shouldn't we be able to see that? What's the legislative purpose to all this? The point is, with Trump's tax returns, I mean, they -- I don't know that by revealing this to the public the way they did, that we're learning anything that the authorities didn't already know.

So, again, I think this is a precedent. And I believe that this will be weaponized going forward.

PHILLIP: But, Charlie, just to push back on that a little bit, I mean, Hunter Biden isn't running for president.

Isn't there a different standard for presidents than there is for the son of the president, for example?

DENT: But Congress should pass a law then to say that a presidential candidate and/or a president must release his or her tax returns. Pass the law to do it.

Just because Trump violated the norm, he didn't violate the law, in that case. Now, he may have in all the other things he did not. And I'm not a defender of Donald Trump on most things. I have been very critical of him over the years.

But I do have an issue. What was the legislative purpose of this? That's why they -- look, the committee went to the IRS, and they said, oh, we have -- there was a -- this was all for a legislative purpose. I'm not sure I have seen that legislative purpose.

PHILLIP: Yes.

DENT: They can reform the presidential audit process without releasing the tax return. I mean, the bill they just passed, they didn't have to release the return on that. So I'm really questioning why they did it.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Yes, and to your point about the audit process, it seems that something was broken with the audit process. Trump should have been audited, and was not, until the committee reached out and asked the IRS about it.

But we will have to leave it there.

Ed McCaffery, David Cay Johnston, and Charlie Dent, thank you all very much.

And the CDC today is releasing new flu numbers. Cases are down. That's the good news. But experts say that we are not out of the woods just yet.

Plus, she says that she regrets the text messages. New transcripts today from the January 6 Committee revealing what Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, told investigators about her messages to Mark Meadows, messages where she pushed him to fight to overturn the election.

[13:20:01]

And we are now less than two days away from 2023. We will take you live to Times Square, where they're preparing to ring in the new year without any COVID restrictions, the first time in two years.

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PHILLIP: Some new numbers out today show that flu activity remains very high, but it continues to decline in most areas.

That's according to the CDC data from the week leading up to Christmas.

Let's bring in CNN the senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

[13:25:02]

Elizabeth, can you break down these numbers for us? What are the concerns that there could still be a surge after this holiday season?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Abby, let's take a look at the numbers that the CDC just put on their Web site moments ago.

So, what they said is that if, you look at the week of December 18, so the week that ended just before Christmas, hospitalizations for flu were down for the third week in a row. But that doesn't include, of course, post-Christmas activity, when people might have been going out there and getting infected.

And if you look so far this season, there have been over 200,000 flu hospitalizations and 13,000 deaths so far. So the bottom line is, it does appear that flu activity is going down. That's good. This was a crazy early year. It's good to see it come down. But flu is still high. It is not too late to get your flu shot. In fact, it's a good idea.

If you take a look at the map, at a map of the U.S., you can see what I mean. Everything you see this red or orange or purple, that indicates high or very high flu activity. That is most of the country, most by a lot. And so you likely live in an area with a lot of flu. So people still need to be cognizant to the flu, need to be aware, and you still need to get a flu shot, if you haven't already flu.

Flu has -- is not -- it has not gone away, Abby.

PHILLIP: Got to remain vigilant out there. Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.

And also new this morning, the January 6 Committee has released more witness interviewed transcripts, in addition to those that were released yesterday. This latest batch includes on-the-record interviews from Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, along with Rudy Giuliani and Jared Kushner, and more from Cassidy Hutchinson.

CNN senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid has been going through all of these many hundreds of pages of transcripts.

Paula, what are we learning from this newest batch?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Abby, let's start with Ginni Thomas, not a household name, but, as you noted, the wife of the Supreme Court justice.

She's also a conservative activist. And investigators on this panel really pressed her about a series of text messages that she exchanged with then-White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in the days and weeks following the election.

Now, CNN has previously reported on these texts, about two dozen of them, where she was pressing him to try to overturn the results of the election, saying things like -- quote -- "The majority knows Biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history."

Now, in one -- text messages, she references talking to her -- quote -- "best friend" about all of this, suggesting that she was talking to her husband. And, in this transcript, she confirmed that, yes, that best friend reference was likely her husband.

And, Abby, all these text messages at the time raise a lot of questions about the wife of a Supreme Court justice pressing a top White House official to try to undermine democracy. Now, in the transcript of her interview with the January 6 Committee, she expresses regret over these text messages. She says it was an emotional time, and she describes them as emotional text messages to a friend.

Of course, it wasn't just a friend. It was the White House chief of staff, just like her husband isn't just a friend. He is a Supreme Court justice.

Now, regret, remorse, Abby, that's not something we have seen a lot of in these transcripts that have been released. But her regret, her remorse only goes so far. She doubled down when pressed on whether she still believes there was indeed election fraud.

The committee vice chairwoman, Representative Liz Cheney, really pressed Thomas, pointing to the fact that the Trump legal team lost nearly every single legal challenge it filed, points to the fact that the former president was told by many of his top advisers that there was no election fraud.

But when presented with those facts, it didn't sway her at all. She said that she believes -- quote -- "More things are being uncovered." She still believes there was fraud and irregularities, though, when pressed by investigators, Abby, she said that, indeed, she had no specific evidence of any of these things.

PHILLIP: Yes, I think that's the key part there, regret about the emotion, but not about the election lies.

Paula Reid, thank you so much for all of that.

And remember to bring an umbrella when you ring in the new year this weekend. Coming up next, we will have your New Year's Eve weather forecast.

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