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Machete Attack Suspect Was on Terror Watch List; Suspect in Idaho Murders Waves Extradition; January 6th Committee Releases More Transcripts; McCarthy Commits to Concessions. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired January 02, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:46]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good 2023 morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill. Happy New Year.

SCIUTTO: To you as well.

HILL: Nice to be here with you in person.

SCIUTTO: Nice to see you.

HILL: Yes, boy, a busy day on this Monday, the first Monday of the New Year.

New details for you about the 19-year-old suspect who's accused of attacking three NYPD officers in Times Square on New Year's Eve. We're just learning now that he was interviewed by the FBI, also on a terrorist watch list. Officials say in his diary he detailed a desire to join the Taliban and to die a martyr.

Plus, the man arrested in connection with those brutal stabbing deaths of four Idaho college students set to make his first court appearance. And now his family is speaking out for the first time.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, I've been in touch with his family. As you can imagine, the holidays just brutal for them.

Also this morning, the January 6th committee releasing a trove of new documents overnight detailing calls by President Trump ahead of the insurrection. What sort of payment Rudy Giuliani requested for his post-election legal services and what the committee wanted to ask former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in a deposition. Some of those questions revealing. We're going to have more on that in just a moment.

We do begin though this hour with the latest in the investigation surrounding that New Year's Eve machete attack on three NYPD officers.

CNN national correspondent Gloria Pazmino, she is in New York on this story. Gloria, this is a remarkable detail, that the suspect was on the FBI's radar. What else do we know?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. We are learning more about Trevor Bickford. That is who law enforcement sources tell us is believed to be behind this attack on three NYPD officers the night of New Year's Eve, right here in Times Square as thousands of people were trying to get into the area to watch the ball drop. The attack happened several blocks away from here at a security point.

And we have just heard from law enforcement sources, as you mentioned, that he was interviewed by officers with the FBI in Maine after he expressed his desire to travel to Afghanistan and join the Taliban. He also expressed his willingness to die for his religion.

We've also learned, sources telling us and my colleague, John Miller, that his mother and his grandmother became increasingly concerned about what he was saying. They reported that to the FBI, which led to that interview of Bickford earlier this month. And that, as a result of that investigation, Bickford was placed on a terrorist watch list.

Now, that last point is important because we know that Trevor Bickford traveled to New York City by train. That would not have triggered any kind of terrorist watch list had he chosen to fly here to New York City. We know that he traveled here by train (ph). He checked into a hotel room in the lower east side of Manhattan on Saturday. And then he traveled here to this area on New Year's Eve and attempted that attack. He struck a police officer with that machete on the head. Then he struck a second officer. Then a third officer that was on the scene fired his service weapon, injuring him on the shoulder. Those three officers all expected to make a recovery.

But we are learning more about the suspect and still waiting to learn more details about exactly what was his motivation to do this.

We should also mention, Bickford has not been formally charged yet and it's not clear yet to us if he has retained a lawyer. But more and more, a fuller picture now emerging about this attack.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: It's an alarming weapon when you look at that picture there.

HILL: Yes, it is.

SCIUTTO: Just imagine - yes.

HILL: And important new details there.

Gloria, appreciate it. Thank you.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN's senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe, former deputy director for the FBI.

Andy, good to see you this morning. When we listen to what we just learned there from Gloria, in terms of things being done right, the mother, the grandmother, they become concerned, they reach out to authorities.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: The FBI then interviews this man, puts him on the terror watch list. But as Gloria pointed out, he got on a train. He's not going to an airport. So, if you're on that list, just remind us, what does that trigger for authorities? How is that used potentially to, in effect, watch people?

[09:05:02]

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Sure. So, it's maybe a misnomer in the way that we refer to it. The biggest - the greatest significance of the terror watch list is that it can prohibit you from boarding an aircraft. So, you can - so, getting on a train to travel interstate or to travel domestically within the country by any means other than aircraft, it's not going to stop you.

It also - excuse me. It also doesn't mean that there are FBI surveillance agents, or anyone else really, literally watching you 24/7. Interviews like the one you heard described that took place here with Mr. Bickford, those sorts of interviews happen hundreds of times a year around the country every time somebody knew comes to the attention of the FBI or one of the joint terrorism task forces. Agents will conduct all sorts of kind of ground-level investigative efforts. And many times that will include an interview.

So, it's clear he was brought to their attention. They responded. Did an interview. They must have conducted some sort of investigation. And it remains to be seen what was done there and how far that was taken.

SCIUTTO: So, with the proviso that it's very early in this investigation, we don't know exactly how far his planning went, what his actual motive was, at least it's not confirmed at this point, but it does - you know, he drew the interest on the FBI based on these travel plans. It's been some time since you and I talked, Andy, about the threat of radicalization, Islamist radicalization, something along those lines. But, of course, the threat hasn't gone away by any means.

What does this tell us about the ease with which this could happen, right? Perhaps online radicalization and then a plan comes together quickly, or at least an intent to act.

MCCABE: Yes. So, Jim, this - this -- what this reminds us of is that you can make incredible progress overseas defeating a particular terrorist enemy, but it is almost impossible to defeat an ideology.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MCCABE: And even one that is as toxic and violent as radical Islamic extremism. And we know that from whether it's the context of the Taliban, or al Qaeda or ISIS, it's the same sort of thing. It infects predominantly young males and it drives them - it can drive them to act out individually as what we refer to as lone offenders in whatever country they're in.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MCCABE: So, this threat is still around us. It's still very real. It's still very dangerous. We just don't talk about it as much. It's been eclipsed in the news (ph), but it has not gone away.

SCIUTTO: No. And it doesn't have to be directed from abroad, right? It could be a self-starter or independent lone wolf, as they say.

Andy McCabe, thanks so much. I'm sure we'll be talking about this some more.

HILL: The suspect arrested in connection with the killing of four Idaho college students expected to waive his extradition from Pennsylvania to Idaho tomorrow. This 28-year-old, Bryan Kohberger who's charged with four counts of first-degree murder.

SCIUTTO: Just an alarming case from start to finish.

CNN correspondent Jean Casarez, she is in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, this is outside the correctional facility where Kohberger is now being held.

Jean, what more are we learning about him, and perhaps for folks just coming back from vacation, exactly how investigators found their way to him?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we're learning about him personally is that he just graduated -- this is his home, northeastern Pennsylvania, and he graduated in May from DeSales University here in the area and he got his masters degree in criminal justice. We also know he just completed his first semester at Washington State University, clear across the country, right next to Idaho, where he is a criminal justice and criminology major.

We also know that he participated as an active -- active participant in a research project this last semester at the university in regard to how emotions and psychological traits influence decision making when committing a crime.

Now, we do know that he traveled here for the holidays. He was at his family home. It was very early morning hours of Friday that the FBI, Pennsylvania State Police, moved in. They knocked on the door. His father answered. There was cooperation. Bryan came to the door. He was arrested.

I have spoken with his only attorney at this point. It is the chief public defender for northeastern Monroe County. And his name is Jason LaBar.

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JASON LABAR, CHIEF PUBLIC DEFENDER REPRESENTING SUSPECT IN IDAHO KILLINGS: He's doing OK. He's shocked a little bit. Obviously, he's calm right now. You know, we don't really know much about the case. CASAREZ: Now, your client is highly educated, very intelligent. He has

to appreciate the seriousness of what is happening right now.

LABAR: Oh, absolutely. He is very intelligent. In my hour conversation with him, that comes off. I can tell that. And he understands where we are right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And we do have a statement from his family. The Kohberger family. They are saying, quote, there are no words that can adequately express the sadness we feel.

[09:10:02]

We pray each day for them. As a family, we will love and support our son and brother. We have fully cooperated with law enforcement agencies in an attempt to seek the truth and promote his presumption of innocence.

And the hearing will take place tomorrow. It is an extradition hearing here in Ohio. His - here in Pennsylvania. His attorney confirms with me that the plan is that he will waive extradition. It was his decision -- Bryan Kohberger's decision alone. That will expedite the trip back to Idaho where he then will have his initial appearance on those four murder charges plus burglary.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. What a development in this case.

Jean Casarez, thanks so much.

HILL: The House January 6th committee has released another round of witness interview transcripts. And with Republicans, of course, poised to take control of the House tomorrow, these could be among the final transcripts from that panel.

SCIUTTO: Among the new interviews, Republican National Committee Chair Rona McDaniel and the architect as well, another witness of the fake elector's scheme.

CNN's Jessica Schneider joins us now.

Jessica, listen, it's a lot for folks at home to absorb. You've been pouring through this day to day. What stood out to you? What's most newsworthy from this latest release?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, what's interesting here, Jim and Erica, is, you know, the committee's work is officially over here but they are getting all that they can out to the public. They've released more of these transcripts. And we're even seeing that there are video exhibits and detailed timelines on a website that will continue to exist even after the committee's dissolved this week.

So, this trove of new transcripts, they were released overnight. And we saw new interviews from a range of people, including RNC Chair Rona McDaniel, and also more of Trump's legal team and White House aides. So, with Rona McDaniel, she talked about how Trump called her actually

five days before the Capitol attack to ask her about her relationship with VP Mike Pence. McDaniel actually told Trump that she really didn't know Pence that well. But then later, after January 6th, Trump called her again and he was still insistent, even after the violence of that day, he was insistent that Pence did have the ability to refuse to certify the election for Biden. Of course, Pence had actually refused to take that step on January 6th.

So, also in these transcripts, we're seeing White House aides really offering conflicting accounts about Trump's reaction when he was told he could not go to the Capitol on January 6th. Of course, we heard Cassidy Hutchinson and she head that she - that Trump got heated and lunged at the steering wheel of his presidential vehicle. But, in these new transcripts, there's a White House aide, Beau Harrison, and he told the committee that Trump really simply rugged it off when he was told he couldn't go to the Capitol.

So, Harrison telling the committee this. He says, it was brought to our attention that the president asked, where am I going? You know, am I going - am I going back to the White House? And Bob said, yes. You know, you're going back to the White House. And at that point I have a specific memory of Bobby telling both Tony and myself as we were in the room, no one else was in the room, that the president almost kind of shrugged it off. He just kind of moved on.

So that a starkly different account from what Cassidy Hutchinson had told the committee. And Harrison, in this latest testimony, saying to the committee, you know, if there had been a heated exchange, as Cassidy Hutchinson had claimed, he would have known about it.

So, Jim and Erica, there still seems to be a lot of disagreement, conflicting stories about Trump's desire and his subsequent actions trying to get to the Capitol that day.

You know, we really could see more transcripts. They could continue to be released even after control of Congress changes hands because this material is still been uploaded to the website. So, we'll see more details perhaps in the coming days and weeks.

Guys.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider, thanks so much for covering.

Let's bring in now former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and CNN's senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.

Elie, Happy New Year.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Happy New Year, Jim and Erica. Good to see you.

SCIUTTO: So, listen, there's a lot to digest here. And it seems that part of the committee's function here is to make this public record. But we also know that they are providing information to the DOJ, which has some legal, criminal -- potential criminal decisions to make. I want to ask about one thing in particular. They also released questions they were not able to ask to someone like Mark Meadows, because he refused to testify. A no-show deposition. One of their questions specifically related to the deployment of the National Guard, saying that there was an email on January 5th from Mr. Meadows in which he indicates the guard would be present at the Capitol to, quote, protect pro-Trump people. In other words, not to protect the Capitol or the members of Congress, right, but to protect pro-Trump people there.

Given that that's an existing line of questioning for the committee, what's the significance of that because that -- this is a big question here, did Trump act to try to protect the Capitol?

HONIG: Yes, I think it's really interesting, Jim, that the committee wanted to ask Mark Meadows that question. It goes to what Mark Meadows knew. It goes to Mark Meadows' intent. It goes to what the larger plan was, of course, involving Donald Trump.

And this all underscores the need to get testimony from people like Mark Meadows. I think he's first and foremost.

[09:15:00]

But a lot of these people essentially no-showed on the committee or took the 5th.

Now, prosecutors have different types of subpoenas. They have grand jury subpoenas. They have much more ability to really force people to testify. And so a big question is, what will prosecutors do about Mark Meadows in particular? He's sort of wriggled away without testifying fully. Prosecutors may be able to remedy that.

SCIUTTO: That's interesting.

HILL: See what they end up doing that.

It's also interesting to me, as Jessica was pointing out, the discrepancy here between what we heard from Cassidy Hutchinson and what we're hearing there now from Harrison what's in - in what was released. Where does this go, do you think?

HONIG: So, this is precisely why these transcripts are a double-edged sword. There's all sorts of information here that I think prosecutors are going to think helps their case. We've seen examples over the last several days and weeks, as these transcripts have come out, of details that I think show that this was an intentional plot, that implicate Donald Trump and other people. But, on the flip side, we're seeing inconsistencies emerge. That's natural. That happens whenever you have a large-scale investigation. But here's a perfect example. Cassidy Hutchinson testified that she was told that Donald Trump had this extreme negative reaction, this powerful response when he was told he couldn't go to the Capitol. Well, now we have two other witnesses saying something different. And so prosecutors, first, have to figure out, who do we believe?

SCIUTTO: Right. HONIG: You can't use a witness unless you personally believe them. But then you're going to have an issue, and I believe Cassidy Hutchinson was quite credible on the most part, but you've got to stand in front of a jury and you're going to have two other witnesses who undermine her testimony, and that's an issue for prosecutors.

HILL: Yes. One more thing to watch.

Elie Honig, good to see you, my friend. Thank you.

HONIG: Thanks, guys. All right.

HILL: Up next, Republican Kevin McCarthy trying to make a deal with his own party to be the next House speaker. What he's offering. What he's already given up. And why, even with all those concessions, and just 24 hours left to go, he still doesn't have the votes.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And he's given up a lot, let's be frank.

HILL: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Plus, dramatic scenes of flooding in California that led to the deaths of at least two people. Goodness. More than 50,000 people still without power this morning. We're going to take you to the scene live.

We're also watching thousands of people in Brazil right now, they're paying their final respects to the soccer legend, Pele, as his coffin lies at the center pitch -- at center pitch in his home stadium. What a place for folks to say good-bye.

Please, stay with us.

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HILL: The clock is ticking here, just one day now before Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy is set to face a critical vote to become the new speaker of the House. And nine Republican hard-liners say some of the concessions he announced on Sunday, ah, still not enough. They want more specific commitments.

SCIUTTO: Let's bring in CNN congressional correspondent Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill.

McCarthy making his case overnight. Making some big concessions, let's be frank. So the question is, how big are these concessions and will they be enough?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's pretty incredible the moment that we are at right now. We are just a day ahead of the speaker's election. Kevin McCarthy still doesn't know if he has the votes. He did try to make a concession to conservatives last night on that call at 4:00 p.m., saying to them that he was willing to lower the threshold it would take to oust a future speaker. This is known as the motion to vacate up here. He said he would lower that threshold from a majority of the conference down to just five members. That's a huge, huge concession for McCarthy, and yet, on that same call, Matt Gaetz, one of the loudest conservative voices arguing he will not support McCarthy said it still wasn't enough. That he wanted that threshold to go down to just one member.

You also saw, after that call last night, nine members signing on to a letter saying they still have concerns about McCarthy moving forward. Saying they were not ready yet to commit to him as the next speaker. This came after a week of phone calls with both allies, as well as those who are opposing him, trying to get those votes that he needed in the week between Christmas and New Year's. But so far we just aren't seeing a breakthrough. And this would be -- really be unprecedented on the floor tomorrow because there has not been a time in recent history, in the last 100 years, that we have seen a speaker's vote go multiple ballots. But that is what moderates are telling me they are prepared for, they are ready for, because they say they are going to be for McCarthy on the first ballot and on the 1,000th ballot if that's what it takes.

So, obviously, a lot riding on tomorrow. And it just doesn't look like we've seen the breakthrough yet assuring that McCarthy would be the next speaker.

HILL: Lauren Fox, thank you so much. A lot can happen in the next 24 hours or so.

SCIUTTO: No question.

HILL: Joining me now to discuss, Republican strategist and pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson and Toluse Olorunnipa, White House bureau chief for "The Washington Post."

Good to see you both this morning.

I mean as we look at -- picking up where Lauren left off there, talking about the multiple ballots, you have Representative Bob Good who said - who was a hard no, as we know, against McCarthy, who said, there will be a new speaker candidate set to emerge in the second ballot tomorrow.

Kristen, given everything we've seen, everything that McCarthy has now given up at this point, if ultimately, it's not Kevin McCarthy, who is the next speaker?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND POLLSTER: The fact that there's not an easy answer to that question is one of the things that is making it most likely that Kevin McCarthy will ultimately prevail at this point. There is not a concerted challenge being organized against him that has a real credible figurehead leading is. And so right now, even though there's a lot of talk about, you know, who folks don't want to vote for, there's not a lot of clarity on who would be that next person to step up.

The other problem that folks are sort of grappling with is, you know, leaders normally have a lot of things they can use as incentives to try to bring people along. Things like the ability to fundraise more in their district, the ability to -- if they put them on more committees and so on and so forth. Some of those tools don't exist for congressional leaders in the modern era with changes to the way we fundraise, et cetera. So being able to put that coalition is insanely hard in 2023, and Kevin McCarthy's finding that out.

HILL: It also speaks to what could ultimately be happening on a broader level in Congress, Toluse, or not happening.

[09:25:03]

And I say that in respect to, if there's all this jockeying, right, there are the questions of, who will actually wield more power within the GOP conference because they do have that slight majority, what does this do, Toluse, in terms of actual legislation and governance in Washington?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, we're going to see which group in the Republican caucus flexes its muscles the most. Will it be the moderates who have said they're only for Kevin, are they going to stand their ground and say that no matter what we're going to be with Kevin McCarthy, or will it be some of the more extreme right-wing figures in the caucus who have said they're never going to be for Kevin McCarthy. And we are seeing this sort of internessing (ph) battle fight -- play itself out within the Republican caucus and it's going to be a preview of things to come as we get to places where the Republican caucus is going to have to hash it out on things like the debt limit and on things like spending and on things like whether or not to impeach members of President Biden's administration.

And so we're going to be watching very closely at this first fight to see who wins, whether or not Kevin McCarthy is able to corral his caucus and bring everyone together and sort of unify a very diverse and sprawling caucus where you have people like Marjorie Taylor Greene on one side, you have more moderate members who are new freshmen coming from Biden districts, whether or not they're going to be able to unify around a single purpose is going to be something that remains to be seen as they not only face this fight but also major fights on legislation going forward.

HILL: It's fascinating what we see playing out on the House side, Kristen, when we also look at what's happening on the Senate side. And in terms of power, the way Mitch McConnell still holds that power.

ANDERSON: And what I think is so important to understand is the Senate and the House are very different animals. That the House is one that is going to have a lot of - a lot of different voices, that all are up for re-election constantly, versus the senate where they're only up for election every six years. And so it's a little bit easier for things to get done, for the machinery to be expected to work a little more slowly.

And that's why, you know, Mitch McConnell is someone who there have been plenty of times where conservatives have voiced concerns about him but he can say, look, I'm the one that helps get your judges confirmed and so on and so forth, and he's able to say, look, I get things done for our conference.

On the House side there's just so much more churn. You constantly have new members who are coming into the fold. And - and they're -- don't necessarily bring with them that institutional knowledge and they really want to see things shaken up. That's what they're hearing from their constituents back home. But it does make it harder to kind of piece together these deals that would enable a leadership group to really focus -- sit down and focus on governing.

HILL: A whole lot of drama over there on the House side, that is for sure.

Toluse, as we look at where we stand, we know Democrats are bracing for investigations from Republicans in the House. Late last week, the White House actually sent a letter telling Republicans they're going to need to, in fact, reissue all these requests once they take control of Congress, once the new Congress is sworn in. That's actually sort of a page from a Trump playbook when we look at that.

Is this simply about maybe trying to stall a little bit? Is this about politics, Toluse? Or is there something more there from the Biden White House?

OLORUNNIPA: The White House wants to draw a line in the sand and they want to play a little bit of hard ball here because they know that they are going to be playing against Republicans who are going to be taking pretty hard tactics when it comes to subpoenas, when it comes to calling people up before Congress, when it comes to investigating family members of the president. And what the White House has said is that they will engage on things that they believe are about policy, things like the withdrawal from Afghanistan, things like how the Covid relief funding has been spent. But on personal things, on things that are blatantly political, the White House is going to draw a line in the sand. They're going to - not whether they're either going to stall or they're going to reject some of these subpoenas and whether, you know, the Republicans tried to go after President Biden's son, the White House has said they're just not going to engage. That is not a White House matter. That's not a government matter.

So, we can expect to see the White House playing hardball when it comes to these oversight requests. And it's going to be a standoff as we saw during the Trump administration with Congress on one side and the administration on the other side. We're going to - we're going to see continuation of that as we go back into divided government.

HILL: Yes, a lot of standoffs on deck here in Washington in the coming months and even years.

Toluse, Kristen, good to see you both this morning. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes, standoff is a sport in Washington.

Still ahead, another story we're following closely, just disastrous flooding in California. We go to one community where at least two levees broke, prompting evacuation and shelter in place orders. Look at that water. Plus, CNN is live in Brazil this morning where thousands are honoring the soccer legend, Pele, just ahead of his funeral.

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