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Interview with Republican Representative David Joyce of Ohio on Legislative Efforts in 2023; McCarthy Wins on 15th Ballot; Interview with Democratic Representative Sheila Jackson-Lee of Texas on McCarthy Win; Democratic Representative Hakeem Jeffries Makes History as First Black Lawmaker to Lead a Party in Congress. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired January 07, 2023 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[02:00:00]

REP. DAVID JOYCE (R-OH): I give everyone the opportunity to earn trust. Until they lose that opportunity, until they lose my trust. And I believe that we all come to this with the same belief, that we want to do what is in the best interest of our country.

We love our country. We just might happen to see how we go about the resolution to issues in a different way. The first thing we have to do is put those things aside and sit down and talk about those things we can agree upon.

And then you will find out that the things you disagree upon are not insurmountable and that we can finally get to resolutions and get to yes.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: The first test is was electing a speaker. And that proved to be quite difficult. But I'm glad you can laugh about it now.

The next one is a rules package, which is, for people who are out there wondering what that means, it is a package that dictates how the Congress, the House in particular, is going to run for the next couple of years. And it is not clear whether or not even that will pass.

What do you think?

JOYCE: A lot of people are coming into this and grumbling, well, the people who are negotiating got everything. Kevin has given away the store. But it has to be part of a process with other members.

They're working with my group, Republican governors' group, and explaining along the way what was taking taken place.

There's nothing in this package that really hurts us because, unfortunately -- and I've seen it since my time here -- too much power has been put in leadership, put in the speaker's job and taken away from the floor, taken away from the committees.

And that is what they wanted. And that is what we are getting, it's back to the idea that, if we are going to do things, we are going to have committee chairs and committee people working on these hearings, putting together bills, passing their bills in committee, moving them through the amendment process, the old regular order.

As you can appreciate, Dana, and then actually getting the floor, a secondary amendment process, for those not on the committee -- and then vote them up or down. Let all 435 of us vote on whether we think it's a good amendment or a bad amendment. And then we'll have buy-in from both sides.

I think that's part of the process. At least, it's necessary to heal the House because (INAUDIBLE) Democrats and Republicans is that (INAUDIBLE) speaker's office and (INAUDIBLE) at the last minute with no ability to look into them or to oversee what has taken place.

And so, that has been a problem. And hopefully, this will be part of the cure in our rules package, to fix those problems.

BASH: Did you use the word mature?

JOYCE: Pardon?

BASH: I just thought you use the word mature which, I think --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: -- a generous term for what we have seen. Thank you for your time at this very early hour, at 2 am East Coast time. We appreciate it. Congratulations, again, on your being sworn in and for getting through this week.

JOYCE: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

BASH: OK. Thank you so much.

And back at the table, we have not talked to you yet, Liam.

What did you make of the congressman?

And more broadly, what you have seen?

LIAM DONOVAN, FORMER NATIONAL REPUBLICAN SENATORIAL COMMITTEE AIDE: I will take the optimistic view. I think Phil's and Tia's right, that this is going to be messy.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOVAN: The point is, I think this is an uneasy truce but it's a truth nonetheless. And it was one that was in doubt until the very last minute.

If you told us yesterday Matt Gaetz had an opportunity to plunge the knife into leader McCarthy and did not take that opportunity and provided the opportunity for him to become speaker, I don't think that would have been believed, necessarily.

I think that the good faith that has been absent has to be built. The fact that these guys got to yes when that was, again, people who were very cynical about -- that they asked for all these things. McCarthy gave them these things.

Can they possibly get to yes?

If they do, will those holdouts come back?

And they came back. And so I think, to congress man Joyce's point, these guys aren't wrong that the process is totally broken and it's been completely dysfunctional for decades. Their way might not be better. But we have to sort of find out.

And it has been a cliche throughout the week, that democracy is messy. But it is going to get messier. But it is probably healthier than having the sort of take it or leave it back from deals that don't come out until deadline. So I think we will find this out.

The House will be sort of the sandbox. We all sort of understand that divided government, a Senate controlled by Democrats in the White House controlled by Democrats, what the House does or does not do is not going to determine too much.

[02:05:00]

DONOVAN: But the strictures (ph) they put on themselves only matter so much. I think Phil and I were talking about the things that were actually conceded that matter. I think what really does matter is the Rules Committee and the power that these members, who will be granted those slots, have on what sees the floor and what circumstances.

It's inside baseball that people don't really think about. But that's the stuff that matters, not the promises of this note or these cuts that are not going to materialize. It's really the function of the House.

And to the congress man's point, we don't know how this is going to go. But this is going to have to be a lesson of getting what you want. Welcome to regular order. Buckle up.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: I'll tell you what, you heard now Speaker McCarthy say, never, ever, ever give up. I almost had that image in my mind, the meme of the frog whose hands are inside the mouth of the duck and he's choking the duck to just be able to live, that's his experience for the next two years, by the way.

They never give up a notion of trying to figure out a way to stay with his head above the water. What I heard the congress man talked about was team, together. He was laughing through it because he knows team and together was not on full display here.

But did you happen to hear the narrative coming out of it?

It's not a weekend speaker. It is more of decentralized power. That is a different way than thinking about it now. It's not a weekend speaker. It's more about having everyone have agency, the rank and file members, and going back to how it is supposed to function in the right way.

What do you make of that argument or that narrative?

I don't mean to get pejorative on it. But it is a shift away from the weaker speaker comments we have seen the last four days.

Is it about just decentralizing it for the benefit of Congress?

TIA MITCHELL, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": I think he put a great spin on it. And I think, to Liam's, point, it's a different way of doing things. It's going to be a big experiment.

And if you put it in the context of everyone working in good faith, then it sounds right. It sounds good.

But the question is, are the far-right members willing to work in good faith?

That is the big experiment. It's not the procedures --

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Which is what I was trying to get out at --

(CROSSTALK)

MITCHELL: -- it's the people. Representative Joyce was like, well, the motion to vacate is not intended for just disagreeing with one decision. But that is how it could be used. And that is the risk that Speaker McCarthy now takes with all these assurances he has given his detractors in order to win this position.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. I think they are actually the same thing. And it is not just, necessarily, a spin or a frame.

I think, in an ideal world, what the holdouts or rebels or insurgents -- whatever you want to call them -- were trying to do is exactly how that building and the legislature should be run.

We don't govern in an ideal way. And we have not in decades, whether it is on appropriations bills, whether it's just the basic functioning of government.

And because of that and because a significant chunk of their conference is not willing to reach out, opposed to reaching outcomes on the very things that keep government open, that raise the debt ceiling, the crisis moments we always find ourselves in, that is why power has just shifted steadily away from members, away from committees, into leadership.

Every single time we reach a deadline, you are huddled around the speaker's office, waiting for them to come out and announce the deal. Not the kettle balls (ph) or kind of the old guard.

And unless you have members that are able to deliver in a decentralized manner, then it will start to flow back the other way. And I think that is the biggest problem. The best part of your interview was you saying -- I heard you asking congressman Joyce if he trusts his colleagues and him laughing.

He was laughing a lot, which I appreciated --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: But then saying everyone has an opportunity to earn my trust.

Then saying, no, I don't trust them.

COATES: Can you translate that as a fellow Buckeye?

MATTINGLY: Yes, look. He's a great American, because he comes from the greatest state. That was the spin. Yes, they can earn my trust, like, it does not currently exist. And to your point, this is the moment where they either decide to build off of it, because it's his point about the necessity of trust in these relationships, inside that conference to actually make things work, is 100 percent true.

And what that conference for years, really a decade or more, has not had, is any trust inside of it. It is not a party versus party; it's intraparty for them. And it has been since 2011 and until they find a way thread that needle, this is what we are going to see.

COATES: One thing I heard, (INAUDIBLE) that power -- did you hear Speaker McCarthy make the comment about how it is going to be about the power of the purse and the power of the subpoena?

Obviously the lawyer in me, my ears perked up.

And I thought, have I not been paying attention for the past several years where the subpoena has not meant a whole lot to members of Congress, all of a sudden?

MATTINGLY: I thought the lawyer in you would say, immediately, don't say anything, get a lawyer.

COATES: Well, I would (INAUDIBLE) my number --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: -- but I've been thinking about it, just the idea of --

[02:10:00]

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: You know (INAUDIBLE) and did not comply?

COATES: Who?

BASH: Everyone.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Everyone?

Yes, now. Interesting but now it's about the power of the purse and the subpoena. But no more one-sided inquiries.

Again, who is in a position to try to broaden that inquiry and was criticized by the former president Trump for not having it develop more?

We are going to take a quick break and come right back to more of this extraordinary day.

BASH: We are waiting for Kevin McCarthy to come on.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: -- members. I want to thank my conference --

BASH: Kevin McCarthy, speaking to reporters. Let's listen.

MCCARTHY: -- I mean, Garrett Graves, Patrick McHenry, Westerman, French Hill, Chip Roy and Scott Perry and they really worked together at the end to put it all through.

All the different members hanging with me through all those different vote. But I do want to especially thank president Trump. I don't think anybody should doubt his influence. He was with me from the beginning. Somebody wrote the doubt that whether he was there, he was all in.

He would call me and he would call others. He really was -- I was just talking to him tonight -- helping get those final votes.

What he's saying for the party and the country, we have to come together, we have to focus on the economy, we have to focus, make our borders secure. We have to do -- so much work to do and he was a great influence to make that all happen so thank you president Trump.

QUESTION: What happened on the floor here, heading into the 14th ballot, we thought you had the votes, suddenly you were suddenly you were surprised. It was a heated confrontation on the floor. You had an exchange with Matt Gaetz.

What happened?

MCCARTHY: It wasn't a heated one between (INAUDIBLE). I know. I when I was telling him is I'd rather win on the 15th -- (INAUDIBLE). That was a joke but you did not catch it. No, what happened was it became a tie. And I really think Matt had

talked to me before -- Matt really want wanted to get everybody there. And so look, through all of this, people's emotions go up and down.

And at the end of the night, Matt got everybody there, from the point that, nobody voted against the other way. So it actually helped unite people.

QUESTION: But what changed (INAUDIBLE) going against you (INAUDIBLE) the next vote?

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: Specifically?

MCCARTHY: President Trump talked a lot. But I also think it's them and wanting to make this conference united and work together. So I thanked them for that. And Matt worked hard on that as well.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: How do you prevent a situation like this from happening on every type of contested vote going forward over the next two years of your speakership?

MCCARTHY: I think what you will see, by having this now, we worked out how to work together. It's a little more difficult when you go into a majority and, maybe, the margins are not high.

If you study American history, this was the closest margin that any first person to win a speaker in the last 70 years. When you look at the end of day of how many people voted against me, it was the smallest margin that any modern speaker has had.

So it may have taken a little longer -- and I always like to quote my father, he died 22 years ago. But he would always say, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. So don't judge us on how we start. Watch how we finish.

And I think having the disruption now really built the trust with one another and learned how to work together. What we are going to have to find in our mindset is that we have to frontload, that we have to think about and work on the bills with a microcosm of the conference before we even start writing it.

That is really what we learned here. And working the rules, there were a lot of great ideas. At the end of the day, I remember on January 1st, we did this conference call with the entire conference.

[02:15:00]

MCCARTHY: And when we walk through all the rules, people were excited. People were mad before, like, what were you working on?

Why was it holding it all up? But at the end of the day, the product was better. So maybe 100 years from now, some master student will have to write about this. But really, what most people write about or feel is the outcome of how well we will run the floor for the next two years.

(CROSSTALK)

MCCARTHY: Last question.

QUESTION: -- the motion to vacate, how confident are you that you will have this job for a full two-year term?

MCCARTHY: A thousand percent. Thank you, all.

COATES: You just heard from Kevin McCarthy, now Speaker McCarthy. Interestingly enough, paying homage to a former president, president Trump, crediting him with the success.

Also, someone who had been an archnemesis of course, representative Matt Gaetz, also getting a great deal of credit today, this evening or this morning -- what time is it?

All today because now Speaker McCarthy wants to, essentially I guess, we are getting insight into who he thinks is responsible for that last-minute win?

The 15th round?

BASH: Yes, I want to talk about that. But I want to take a moment to just address what you said about thanking Trump. We saw a Bloomberg photographer, I believe it was, captured this fantastic, remarkable photo of Marjorie Taylor Greene, holding out her phone. And it said DT on it.

We know that the former president was making calls. But I still just can't wrap my mind around the fact that we are two years -- that picture, right there -- we are two years to the day, to the night, of January 6th, where that same man, who was president at the time, stoked a mob who came in and completely almost demolished that very chamber.

And had people hunting his vice president, the then speaker Nancy Pelosi and now Kevin McCarthy is speaker. And he is thanking Donald Trump. And he is speaker in part because of the contortions that he put himself in to stay aligned with Donald Trump.

MATTINGLY: And the contortions that he put himself in helped save Donald Trump at a moment where the party was very, very seriously considering a very real break. And I think people need to understand that.

It's very tough to remember because obviously, at this point, a lot of the country does not believe that January 6th was an actual thing.

But as somebody who was in the Capitol through the 7th to the 10th and on, there was probably a three-day period -- maybe a 2.5 day period -- where every member you spoke to on the Republican side, including those who were pretty dedicated to the former president, were right on the edge.

Because they were all there. And they knew it. And now speaker Kevin McCarthy went down to Mar-a-Lago, they took the picture together. And things started to turn around.

If Speaker McCarthy's goal is to be speaker and he knew he needed the former president at his side, well, he is speaker and the former president was at his side.

The one thing I think that I was struck by is -- Liam and I were looking at each other at the same time, I'm going to steal the smart thing that he was going to say, probably in a less smart manner -- he's got the job now.

And I also think that the former president was critical in actually getting him there. I'm sure he had an effect. But most of this week was defined by the fact that he had no juice.

BASH: That's exactly right.

MATTINGLY: Or very limited juice.

BASH: He's rehabilitating --

MATTINGLY: Why do you have to go out and immediately do the thing, like you pander to him because you know he's watching and it matters?

I just --

(CROSSTALK)

DONOVAN: You mentioned, they made bets on each other a long time ago. And the most interesting thing to me is that Trump stuck with him -- this is a transactional man who did not ask anything for him. But there's an appreciation that, at some level, they are reliant on each other.

They benefit from one another's success and cannot afford one another's failure. And so I think that acknowledgment at the end is just -- this is the payoff, you know?

There was not an endorsement that got Donald Trump's help. But at the end here, they are still holding hands together.

BASH: Everybody stand by. We have to take a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We will be right back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:20:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING) COATES: We are back and I want to bring in a member who was there for

all of the drama that unfolded tonight on the House floor, Democratic congress woman Sheila Jackson Lee.

Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, I'm glad that you are here at this very late hour. Thank you. I have to know, immediately, though, there was a moment after the tense moment on the floor between congressman Gaetz, of course, the now speaker Kevin McCarthy.

You were speaking with congressman Gaetz.

What were you discussing?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE (D-TX): Well, I think he was making it very clear to me in unspoken language -- meaning, not specifically saying -- that the next round was going to be the election of the speaker, that the point had been made, that the line in the sand had been seen, clearly and that it was now the time that they count the result and Kevin McCarthy becoming speaker.

COATES: Obviously, it was inevitable at some point today that there would be -- or some point in the near future that there would have to be a speaker.

I wonder, given the slim majority and given, of course, the role of the Democratic Party, we heard from, now, minority leader Hakeem Jeffries outlining all the things that need to get done, are you concerned about the functioning of the House at this point, from this moment forward?

JACKSON-LEE: Laura, I'm glad you asked me that question. Because what I hope most Americans will take away from this marathon of over five days of unceasing voting, massive chaos and confusion, almost fist fights on the floor, was that the Democrats, under the leadership of Hakeem Jeffries, remain solidly solid; 212 votes every single time.

[02:25:00]

JACKSON-LEE: And we have progressives and moderates and blue dogs and people from all places around the country, obviously -- the Midwesterners, the Southerners, the Westerners, the Easterners, the Northerners and beyond.

The American people can count on Democrats to lead and govern. And Hakeem Jeffries was magnificent in the core values of democracy and the fight that we are going to have. And even though they come from greedy (ph) families, you heard the story of Kevin McCarthy, from Bakersville.

You heard the story of Hakeem Jeffries, the son of a social worker and growing up in Brooklyn -- you can understand, by the messages, that we came to legislate and protect the American people through Mr. Jeffries' leadership.

And unfortunately, speaker Kevin McCarthy came to investigate, intimidate and to deny the American people the benefits of this country. That is going to be the difference.

So the question would be answered very quickly to say, I am concerned if the focus is going to be on investigation and, as well, a payback to all of the agreements that had to be made in order to achieve the speakership, Mr. McCarthy will have to assess whether he makes his mark on some of the more high moral ground statements he made about the betterment of American and unity --

COATES: Sure.

JACKSON-LEE: -- or whether it is going to be brought down by the fistfights of the divisiveness in his caucus.

I am ready to see. I am going to be fighting. I am going to make it very clear I will be --

COATES: Congresswoman, I hear -- and you paint a very precise portrait, of course, about the contrast that is there between what the perception of Democrats and Republicans will be going forward.

It will be curious to see, to your latter point, what those concessions actually do and what impact they will have.

Congresswoman, thank you for this late hour, I appreciate it.

JACKSON-LEE: Thank you for having me. We are here to stand for America. We will do that as Democrats. We look forward to Republicans trying to do it as well, even with their rules package and some of the concessions made.

COATES: President Biden released a statement this evening. We're going to take a quick break, we will come back and discuss this more. Of course, the words of Sheila Jackson Lee. We will be right back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:30:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is quite a sight to behold. And though Kevin McCarthy needs one vote to become Speaker of the House --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Matt Gaetz does not look like he is willing to acquiesce and change his vote from present --

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- guy in the back who was -- yell at Gaetz in a pink tie. And another member pulled them back. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McHenry seems to be trying to talk Kevin down,

Kevin McCarthy down a little bit here.

McHenry, of course, a key ally, who made a nominating speech, made it sound like this was a foregone conclusion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at that face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks dejected. Look at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: That was, I don't know, about three hours ago or so?

Maybe four?

COATES: Four thousand.

BASH: It could be 4,000. That was the coverage earlier during this dramatic turnaround, which then turned around again as Kevin McCarthy was trying to get that last vote to finally go over the top to become Speaker of the House, which he did.

And he is now Speaker of the House. We want to bring in the one and only Manu Raju, who is --

You are still standing?

(LAUGHTER)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Barely, but yes.

BASH: I hear the echo in the Will Rogers Corridor there, which means maybe you are one of the few people left, which is not surprising. Fantastic reporting, all week, especially tonight. I know that you and the team up there have even more reporting about that drama, that moment, particularly when it got a bit physical.

RAJU: Yes, it really did. It got a bit physical. In fact, Richard Hudson, who was a North Carolina Republican member of the Republican leadership, had to physically restrain Mike Rogers, who is another ally of Kevin McCarthy, who was going after -- there is a photo right there.

That was Richard Hudson, grabbing Mike Rogers, who was going after Matt Gaetz. I asked Hudson about that. And he said he was just trying to stop what would become a very, very tough moment, a very tense moment.

Rogers himself was furious at Matt Gaetz for, essentially, denying, at the time, it appeared, denying the speakership to Kevin McCarthy. They exchanged some tough words. There was some back and forth.

And then at the end of the day, they sort of went their own ways. Now that was a pretty -- I have been spending a lot of time talking to a lot of members about it. Every single person there was taken aback, that I've spoken to about it.

I even asked the Republican -- the speaker, McCarthy, about these tense moments, what happened between the 14th and the 15th vote and (INAUDIBLE) got so tense. He claimed that interaction that we show there, of McCarthy going after Matt Gaetz, he downplayed that.

It looks pretty tense to us when we are looking at that. But he downplayed their exchange and ultimately they got the votes. But one interesting -- I just learned, about a minute ago -- I just talked to Patrick McHenry, which is, part of, the Republican leaders upon McCarthy's team, about what happened when that 14th vote, a handful of those members voted for somebody else.

And that denied McCarthy the speakership. And then the next vote, all six of them voted present.

What happened there?

[02:35:00]

RAJU: He claimed that he was in discussions with Matt Gaetz. Matt Gaetz wanted to adjourn until Monday because he wanted all those six votes to vote present. That was what McHenry says.

Gaetz didn't want a few members to vote present and a few members to vote for another candidate. They all want to vote present, which I found surprising, given that Gaetz had tried to scuttle McCarthy's ascension to the speaker for the past several months.

And even said he would never become speaker just a couple of days ago. But nevertheless, at the end of the day, Gaetz was working, in some ways, to help McCarthy by voting present. And that helped him at the end of the day. So that was an interesting development which we learned here.

But also Gaetz denied getting any sort of offer from -- for voting present, for helping McCarthy, at the end of the day. He said he was not offered a subcommittee chairmanship.

McCarthy denied that as well. That has been a rumor that had been going around the Capitol. But he said he really did not get anything for. That and as far as that confrontation is concerned, he declined to comment, telling Pat Barrett, roll tide. That's all he would say. Rogers, of course, is from Alabama.

COATES: You really can't script this. You really can't script this, Manu. Think that all that this is happening right now.

Are you seeing a bit of a difference?

Is there a shift in the way that the story is being told?

I am sensing it was not a tense moment. At first, it was messy democracy. Then it was how the sausage was made. Now it's, this is inevitable. Now it's, oh, no, don't believe what actually you saw there. We saw that there was more than tension, someone was actually muzzled.

Are you hearing anything about what congressman Rogers has to say about what happened on the floor?

RAJU: We tried to talk to congressman Rogers. He declined to comment about it at all. A lot of people who were involved in the confrontation also did not want to talk about this as well.

So, yes. This was an ugly episode for House Republicans. The last two months, particularly the last few days here -- and seeing this drag and then that surprising 14th ballot and the tense fighting on the floor, all the chaos -- this was not a good beginning of the 118th Congress.

They are trying to put a positive face on that. That's why Kevin McCarthy's new talking point is it's better how you end, not how you begin. That's his argument going forward, saying, let's forget about this, let's move, look ahead.

And a lot of them are saying more positive things because they just know they have a huge task ahead of them governing in this narrowly divided Republican House with this -- two wings, that are completely at odds with each other, on so many key issues, representing so many districts, Biden districts that Biden picked up.

And reconciling their views with the hard right which, at the end of the day, was what McCarthy had to cater to, to get the speakership. That is going to be so complicated going forward and moving an agenda. And they know, get this episode behind them. Because they have got a lot of bigger problems ahead.

BASH: I was just going to say, Manu Raju, the good news is they got it out of their system. And your job is going to be really easy from now on.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Just go home, get some rest. Roll in midday on Monday. It will be fine.

RAJU: The other thing, too, is that McCarthy has some real concerns about the possibility, if he strays from these issues, one of these members could try to oust him. And he just said to us, he said, he's 1000 percent confident he will remain speaker for the next two years. So we'll see.

COATES: Ooh, 1000 percent?

OK, that's a lot of percents. Manu, you and the team are just extraordinary. Thank you so much.

RAJU: Thank you. Thanks, guys.

BASH: And back with us now, Phil Mattingly, also a longtime Capitol Hill reporter and Tia Mitchell, longtime Capitol Hill reporter. Also Margaret Talev, a longtime Capitol Hill reporter also director of democracy, journalism and citizenship at Syracuse University.

You're new to the table. You haven't given your thoughts.

(CROSSTALK)

MARGARET TALEV, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: I was struck by a couple of things in Speaker McCarthy's eventual acceptance speech. One was that you did not actually hear him call out Joe Biden by name or Hunter Biden. I heard minimal references to the Biden presidency.

He talked about the checks and balances on the president's politics, policies. But he seemed very intense in that moment in trying to give, for the most part, with the exceptions of lines about wokeism or whatever, more of a statement speech to say that he is speaking to all Americans.

[02:40:00]

TALEV: To try to rise above what we have just seen unfold for the last week and the last several hours on the floor.

But at the same time, there were a couple of lines where, I wasn't sure if he was talking to his own caucus or if he was talking to the Democrats, when he said things like, I never give up.

Is that a message for Hakeem Jeffries?

Is it a message for that block of five or six that went right up until the end?

He kept talking about his father, his late father, talking about how he was the son of a firefighter. And I just could not put away from my head the imagery of Kevin McCarthy fighting about 1 million firefighters over the next weeks and months.

But we have spent a lot of time over the past week talking about how a very small minority could basically hijack the majority. If I was going to try to interpret this a different way at this hour, after this very long week, it is that, actually, they were working with within the system.

It shows you the problems with this system, but it was nonviolent, with the exception of the near punch that almost got thrown. It was nonviolent. It was a peaceful political protest.

And they are operating within the rules that they're allowed to operate under, because they come from districts, these five or six lawmakers in particular, they come from districts that voted for Trump over Biden 2:1. Not Lauren Boebert but everyone else.

And that's where those base voters are saying, this is what we want you to do. And Kevin McCarthy is experiencing some of that in his own district. So I think this does portend a very difficult year for Speaker McCarthy.

The debt ceiling thing could be really bad for the country. But the reality is that, until either gerrymandering changes or people in these hard red districts change their minds about what they want, this is all functioning within the spectrum of how democracy is currently working in this country.

COATES: It does not just impact, though, the electorate, which is interesting. But there was a moment that we have not talked about, when Speaker McCarthy spoke about repealing 87,000 IRS agents and funding for them, talking about the Holman Act.

There was the idea of one of the concessions brought up. And we don't know what the concessions are and the scope of, them, Tia, and what was the price to get the vote to go from a Never Kevin to, here, present.

When it comes to things like that, which is a very nuanced aspect that most of the electorate might not be aware of, let alone understand, the idea that there can be this check and balance on what he says is wanting to have the government help, you not go after you, it was not a very subtle reference point.

It was very blatant what he was trying to say.

How do you think that translates?

TIA MITCHELL, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": So I think it's two things. Number one, I think the Republican majority does have a consensus. They want these investigations. They want to address wokeism.

And they want to repeal some of the things that were in some of these big spending packages that they did not agree, with such as the money for the IRS agents. But the rules package, the framework of how they can do that work, that could be another contentious vote on Monday, again.

We already have one lawmaker saying he is a no. One Republican lawmaker saying he is a no -- Kevin McCarthy can only afford, I think, four no votes or five.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- (INAUDIBLE) already

MITCHELL: -- deja vu on Monday. Even if it passes, it is going to probably be a little bit messy on Monday. There are going to be people who are not happy, particularly as the details start to leak out over the weekend. And that is where I think it is just another indication of the messiness that is upon us, the details.

MATTINGLY: Can I just add -- you brought it up to some degree -- this, the rules package, that Dana Bash so helpfully brought in, because (INAUDIBLE) --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK) BASH: -- rules package.

MATTINGLY: -- we're playing to because it's like eight days after this day started already -- this is not supposed to be hard.

The vote that took four days, that Kevin McCarthy emerged triumphant from as a Speaker of the House, second in line to the presidency, this is as big as it gets in the U.S. government. It's pro forma.

This is not -- the whipping (INAUDIBLE) Pelosi had to whip as well. But that process takes time and that process informs the rules package. Those are all real things.

But as we were sitting there, after that was all done and you were looking at me and we were trying to figure out what they were doing procedurally in terms of their amendment votes, I panicked, because I thrive on congressional procedure. It is like my passion.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: -- super fun to hang out with. I had a moment where, I don't necessarily know what they are doing right now. And the reason why is, we've never had to pay attention before because this was something that was just done.

[02:45:00]

MATTINGLY: Right? Boom, boom, boom, we're done. Swearing in, you go take grip and grab (sic) pictures with your family. That's why this is so different.

I can't believe, this is crazy, it's not just Richard Hudson muzzling Mike Rogers, although that was different. It's that none of these last four days are supposed to take any longer than a couple of hours. . And what does that mean going forward?

And I think Tia makes a great point. Everything is in flux right now and very fluid. But to contextualize it for people, while we are all kind of thrown off, is that nothing about this about this process was normal, because it's just not supposed to be.

We haven't gotten to the hard stuff yet.

COATES: What did Kevin McCarthy say?

Earlier he said, oh, don't worry, we are going to get rid -- it's going to be messy now.

TALEV: He also said, what lessons he learns in the future, they're going to need to learn how to frontload things. I'm not sure what he meant. But I think what he meant is, try to minimize the drama that the public gets to see.

I know we all want to get keep the C-SPAN cameras. I do. But it will be much harder for him to get anything done if everything single thing is (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: Don't worry, we're coming back. Everyone stick around. More on this very historical day on Capitol Hill in just a moment.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:50:00]

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHERYL JOHNSON, HOUSE CLERK: No persons, having received a majority of the whole number of votes cast by surname, a speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

A speaker has not been elected.

The honorable Kevin McCarthy of the state of California, having received a majority of the votes cast, is duly elected Speaker of the House of Representatives.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: In case you missed what happened over the past week, there it was in 30 seconds. It was kind of like an LP. And it's like, skipping.

COATES: Oh, that's going to be a meme. (CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Cheryl Johnson, only winner of the last four days because it wasn't any of us --

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: The panel is back here. And we are talking about the fact that there is a Speaker of the House. But we also wanted to talk about the new Democratic leader --

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: -- Hakeem Jeffries.

COATES: It was a speech, it was full of the alliteration, obviously. We looked at the entire alphabet, trying to draw comparison between the Democrats and Republicans. There were a couple that stuck out. There was the idea of the Constitution over a cult, governing over gaslighting, maturity over Mar-a-Lago. These were not subtle jabs.

TALEV: No, they weren't. And also this is the structure of the speeches that he gives the speech and hands the gavel to the new speaker.

But what if Hakeem Jeffries were speaker, a lot of that might have been wrapped in a (INAUDIBLE) you had a feeling he had been working on that speech for a while, just in case it went either way.

And in that process of speaking before he handed over the gavel, he really made a lot of the Democrats' talking points. Their speech to America and their speech to the Republican Party.

COATES: It was a new us versus them, in a different way. And how you never get a second chance to make a first impression. He was pointing out the impression that likely many people have of Republicans right now.

MITCHELL: Yes. And I think he took his time proceeding Kevin McCarthy to really lay out the vision for Democrats over the next two years. But also, he is laying out a vision for himself as a new leader, on the national stage.

And, of course, he is one to watch. I hate to say this but there is another election coming up.

(LAUGHTER)

MITCHELL: And there is a chance that Democrats could take control and he become the first Black speaker of the U.S. House. So I really think he wanted to take his moment and put himself out there.

BASH: And this was a moment. He's the first Black leader of a party in Congress.

MATTINGLY: It's history in that sense. It is also, for the Democratic Party, which has been led by octogenarians -- I mean it will no disrespect when I say that, it's an actual, literal fact that the three top Democratic leaders in the House have been all been in their 80s. It's a generational shift, a dramatic one.

And it's not just him. It's Pete Aguilar, it's Catherine Clark. There's a dramatic sea change happening in that caucus. But nobody in that caucus has experienced or been a part of in this leadership.

And I think, to your point, and it's a great one, we know Hakeem Jeffries. We know the cadence. We know he is generally going to quote Biggie and he's going to be funny and he's going to be super smooth in how it delivers messages.

This was an introduction to the broader country because he is now a player, not just one of the players. He is now the player for the Democratic Party on Capitol Hill when it comes to the House.

COATES: And remember, there was that moment when Kevin McCarthy -- now Speaker McCarthy -- said, hey, two years ago, I had a unified caucus and they all voted with me, too, a way of saying to him, don't get too comfortable. They might not like you the way they did not like me. Now

BASH: It's true. It's always easier to lead in the minority when you don't have actually have to govern and you can go throw legislative and political grenades.

[02:55:00]

BASH: We have seen that on both sides of the aisle. Having said, that it is kind of remarkable the way that Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, James Clyburn, the octogenarians leaders who led as a group for 20 years, turned over the reins in one fell swoop.

TALEV: And he gave them all a shoutout.

BASH: Yes.

TALEV: And then he did his ode to Biggie and then he gave Kevin McCarthy a hug. So no one --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: It was a gracious transition from like a sharp speech to handing the gavel off --

TALEV: But no one watching that is going to forget Hakeem Jeffries. He made an impression and that was the point. He's the leader of the opposition now. That's his role.

COATES: (INAUDIBLE) 12 times 15 impressions, everyone.

Thank you so much for watching.

BASH: Thank you so much. Our live coverage continues. Don't go anywhere. Coverage continues. Don't go anywhere.