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Biden In Mexico After Visiting Border For First Time Since President; Biden Condemns Rioters Who Stormed Brazil's Gov't Buildings; McCarthy Faces New Battle Of Passing House Rules Package. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 09, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

President Biden is in Mexico City and will try to tackle one of the biggest challenges dogging his administration, the surge of migrants at the southern border. In a few hours, he and the first lady will be welcomed at an official ceremony by Mexico's president, kicking off this North American Leaders Summit. The talks also include Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

BLACKWELL: The president is facing bipartisan criticism for not taking a closer look at the migrant dilemma during the visit to El Paso, Texas yesterday, his first trip to the border as president. Now, he did not see nor did he meet with any migrants while there.

For weeks, CNN has been covering the crisis in El Paso, thousands have been arriving, waiting for the potential easing of a policy that restricted migrants' entry. CNN's MJ Lee is in Mexico City. MJ, let's start with a preview of the summit.

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, the action is really going to be right behind us tonight at the National Palace where President Biden will hold a bilateral meeting with the Mexican president. And then those two presidents will be joined by the Canadian Prime Minister for a ceremonial dinner. Of course, we are going to see the U.S. president and the Mexican president try to show that goodwill and try to discuss areas of cooperation but there are also going to be other issues that are simply going to be incredibly tough and complicated. Chief among them, of course, is going to be immigration.

Keep all of this in the context of last week, and the announcement from the Biden administration to essentially expand Title 42, this controversial program that goes back to the Trump era where migrants trying to come into the United States can be quickly expelled. Part of that agreement was Mexico saying they would be willing to accept up to 30,000 migrants who are turned away at the U.S. border back into Mexico.

Notably though, and this gives you a sense of what a work in progress all of this is Jake Sullivan telling reporters here this morning that they're just going to have to simply take some time to see whether that initial agreement works out. And that as a part of this meeting, they're not really expecting to make any new announcements or any new plans, as far as immigration is concerned. So, obviously, this will again, be a top issue for these three leaders. They'll obviously talk about a number of other issues like trade, and just general economic cooperation between the three countries.

CAMEROTA: MJ, when President Biden was at the border in El Paso, he didn't encounter or meet with or talk to any of the migrants. So, what's the White House saying about that?

LEE: Yes. You know, that was so notable, particularly given that President Biden has come under so much pressure in recent months from all sides, particularly Republican lawmakers to go down to the U.S. southern border for the first time and see with his own eyes the situation there. And he did, of course, get a good sense by talking to border officials, meeting with local leaders and community leaders about the situation, but he also ended up going to a migrant aid center.

And that aid center yesterday, at least when the president was there, didn't seem to have any migrants at the time. And what a senior official told me yesterday was that that was purely coincidental that when he was there, there were just no migrants at the center. And Jake Sullivan this morning telling reporters that really the focus was to meet with groups that are providing essential services to the migrants.

But again, just seemed like a notable omission, given how much pressure the president has been under to go to a place like El Paso and see with his own eyes some of the scenes that our colleagues have been seeing as they have been reporting there for the last several weeks. So, again, all of this just brings and highlights what a complicated issue and potentially a political liability this has all been for President Biden.

CAMEROTA: OK. MJ Lee, thank you very much for the reporting.

BLACKWELL: We're one step closer to knowing whether a former President, Donald Trump or some of his allies will face criminal charges in Georgia. The Fulton County special grand jury investigating whether there was any criminal interference in attempts to overturn the 2020 election has completed its work.

CAMEROTA: CNN's Sara Murray has been tracking every development of this special grand jury for nearly a year now. So, Sara, what happens now that this investigation is finished?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this leg of it is over. The special Grand Jury part is over, you know, this is a grand jury that was seated in May of 2022. They had, you know, the ability to subpoena witnesses to begin gathering documents to gather testimony, but they did not have the ability to actually bring indictments. So, what happens is that they conclude their work and they've written this report that we have not seen publicly and it includes any recommendations for whether they're heir -- or any of Donald Trump's allies, or if the former president should face charges, what kind of charges those should be.

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That goes to the district attorney. There is a hearing later on this month where the judge is going to consider whether this information should be made public. But let's remember how this whole investigation started. You know, this got started when Donald Trump made the now infamous phone call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger asking Raffensperger to find the votes necessary for Trump to win the 2020 election. Trump had lost Georgia by nearly 12,000 votes. That's roughly what he asked Brad Raffensperger for.

This investigation has grown so much though, when it's gone beyond that call to include the fake elector probe, to include harassing election workers, to include an effort by unauthorized people to access voting machines. So, it's really a lot this grand jury has been poring over. Now, their work is done and it goes over to the DA, she's going to have to decide based on the recommendation she gets who if anyone to bring charges against.

BLACKWELL: All right, Sara Murray, thank you very much.

MURRAY: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: In Brazil, we're seeing echoes of the January 6 insurrection including the baseless claims of rigged elections. Rioters storm Brazil's congressional building, Supreme Court, and presidential palace Sunday. There are supporters of former president Jair Bolsonaro and they're furious over his election loss.

CAMEROTA: Security forces used tear gas to clear the rioters out. About 1500 people are reportedly under arrest. Brazil's newly inaugurated President Lula da Silva is promising swift punishment. He saw firsthand the damage from the rioting and issued a joint statement today with the other heads of Brazil's government denouncing Sunday's attack.

CNN's Rafael Romo joins us now. So, Rafael, what is the situation at this hour in Brazil?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR LATIN AFFAIRS EDITOR: Victor and Alisyn, the situation is finally, finally under control but the Brazilian capital looks like a warzone this morning of rioters smashed windows and demolished offices. They even tried to set on fire the carpet in the main hall of the congressional building. The damage is extensive.

One official, imagine this, says blood thesis and urine were found in palace rooms. President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva has only been in power since January 1, and he was barely beginning the process of getting his new government up and running. Now, he has a full-blown institutional and political crisis in his hands. Brazilian officials in the capitol met again Monday in the presidential palace that the day before was under siege. The new president met with his cabinet for the first time Monday to make the vandalized buildings operational again and ensure the security situation across the country doesn't get any worse.

President Lula da Silva is vowing to prosecute the rioters. And it's hard to overstate the seriousness of what happened. We have learned that at least 70 people were injured, a sixth of them severely, but no one died according to the Brazilian health ministry. Supporters of former president Jair Bolsonaro stormed those key buildings over claims that the presidential runoff election in October was stolen. Victor and Alisyn, back to you.

BLACKWELL: Rafael, one of those supporters we understand was Bolsonaro's nephew. Tell us about that.

ROMO: Yes, that's right. It's a nephew who -- imagine this. He was identified because he decided to take pictures of himself and post them on social media. And that's how Brazilian media first found out that it was him, that he was participating and it was in the middle of the chaos on Sunday. Imagine that, Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Yes. They just posted there on the internet -- on the internet if he could know.

CAMEROTA: No wonder how he is caught.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Well, what sleuth.

BLACKWELL: The mystery is solved. Rafael Romo, thank you so much. Joining us now is Brian Winter, editor-in-chief of America's Quarterly and expert on Brazil, and CNN Global Affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier. She's an international affairs fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations. Brian, let me start with you. At the top, I said that this echoes of January 6, complete with the claims of a stolen election, and voting machines switching votes. Am I oversimplifying that or is it as clear and simple as it looks?

BRIAN WINTER, EDITOR-IN-CHIE, AMERICAS QUARTERLY: As an American analyst who follows Brazil for a living, I'm constantly asking myself whether these similarities are misleading or not. And here the answer is no. So many similarities between January 6 in the United States and January 8 in Brazil, even the date is almost the same, albeit with two years of delay, and it's no coincidence.

Bolsonaro and his followers have been openly following the example of Donald Trump going all the way back to 2016, which is the year that Trump was elected and that Bolsonaro launched his candidacy. We know that there are people, including Steve Bannon and Jason Miller, the former Trump aides who talk to members of the Bolsonaro family. So, I think that in many cases, the similarities are very valid.

CAMEROTA: Kim, I mean, absolutely. It's not -- it's more than a copycat crime. It was stoked by, as Brian just said, Steve Bannon. I mean, he, once again, on social media on his podcast, he talked about how you know, it was time for the Brazilians to rise up and do this. It was all the exact same tactics that we saw to stoke this outrage.

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KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Absolutely. The most concerning thing about this is that it is the January 6 playbook being exported to Brazil, and being followed in a way that may show other opponents of election victories that look, you don't have to accept what happened at the ballot box. You can fight it by creating your own disinformation reality that your followers will believe in and rise up.

Now, what's worse about the Brazil situation is that it appears from initial reporting that parts of the military and the security forces may have been complicit, or at least looked the other way and allowed this to happen. So that leaves everyone with, you know, holding your breath. Is this going to be the thing that starts a large series of protests across the country, which could be much more dangerous and bring back you know, shades of the 1964 coup in Brazil when a right- wing dictatorship took over from a leftist government like Brazil has right now?

BLACKWELL: I want to come back to that in just a moment. But Bolsonaro is in the U.S., in Florida, vacationing. Brian, fit that piece of the puzzle into this, that before he left, he said that he condemns any violence, told his supporters to stay away from the violence, although there were months of claiming that the election system was not reliable. What's the relevance of his being here at this time?

WINTER: Well, that's the thing. While it's true that Bolsonaro on Sunday was not out there actively egging these insurrectionists on in the way that Donald Trump was on January 6, 2021, he still bears a lot of political responsibility for what happened because he spent all of 2022 casting doubt on the integrity of Brazil's election system. He said that there could be violence if he lost. He said the only way that he would lose would be through fraud. And then he refused to explicitly concede defeat. And so, all of these things created an environment where events like the ones that we saw on Sunday could happen, even if he wasn't actually out there, egging them on.

That said, I mean, I think that this was an incredibly bad strategy on the part of the people who did this because just as January 6 ended up backfiring and many ways in the United States, we see signs that the same thing is happening in Brazil. All three -- members of all three branches of government signed a statement today expressing repudiating what happened on Sunday. That includes, by the way, the head of Congress who was a Bolsonaro ally, that was like the equivalent of Mitch McConnell doing that in the United States. So -- and there are signs -- early signs that the vast majority of the Brazilian people are not sympathetic, and in fact, are turned off by what happened on Sunday. So, the risks are still there but this, so far, looks to have backfired on Bolsonaro and his supporters.

CAMEROTA: Kim, I don't know if you have had a chance to talk to any of your administration sources, but they can't be happy about Bolsonaro using Orlando, Florida as his base of operations. I mean, can they expel him? Can he -- is he going home soon?

DOZIER: You know, he didn't publicly endorse the -- what happened yesterday, he has been very careful to condemn aspects of it in a Twitter thread. So, at this point, there doesn't seem to be legal standing for expelling him. And also, there are reports that he's been admitted for -- to the hospital for stomach pain for a long-standing medical issue ever since he was stabbed back in 2018 at some sort of a public event. So, you're not going to expel a guy who's in the U.S. at the invitation of your main political opposition in Florida since he spent New Year's Eve at Mar-a-Lago and receiving medical treatment.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. Very good context for us to know. Brian Winter, Kim Dozier, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Well, now that he has the gavel, finally, the real work begins for Kevin McCarthy, details on his first big test as a speaker and the concessions he made that are already not sitting well with some in his party.

CAMEROTA: And Prince Harry is sharing all with the release of his memoir, how he thinks his mother would feel about his relationship today with his brother William.

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CAMEROTA: Fresh off the grueling 15-round battle to become House Speaker, Kevin McCarthy is now facing his first big test in the new job.

BLACKWELL: Today, House lawmakers will hold a major vote on the rules package. Now, the package was at the heart of negotiations between McCarthy and Republican hardliners to secure the gavel. Some GOP moderates, they're already unhappy with some of the concessions. CNN's Manu Raju joins us now from Capitol Hill. So, Manu, he could afford to only lose just a few votes on anything. Are they certain that this will pass?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the House Republican leaders are confident that they will get the votes to pass. This is what the number two -- number three Republican Tom Emmer just told reporters, also the number two Republican Steve Scalise told me that earlier today too. So, they do expect that even though there is consternation in the ranks about some of the deal-cutting among the concessions that are included in this package is to allow one single member to call for a vote to simply -- to oust the sitting speaker, that was a key part of the negotiations going forward. Members on the far-right had demanded that.

These rules package also would make it harder to raise taxes, harder to raise says spending as well -- to demand some spending cuts if that were to happen. But there were other concessions that McCarthy made that were not part of this proposal that are also causing some concerns, giving members of that hard-right Freedom Caucus more say in the legislative process, as well as capping spending, defense -- domestic spending, which could lead to potential cuts in defense programs -- cuts in defense programs.

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Now, in talking to members today, the issue about whether or not one member should be allowed to simply oust the speaker from his job has caused some angst about whether McCarthy will be able to keep this job for two years, or whether it will be constantly threatened by people unhappy by his decisions.

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RAJU: Does that concern you that some members may take advantage of that?

REP. DAVID JOYCE, (R-OH): I'm not the speaker, so you know it should concern Kevin more than it concerns me. But you know, I -- look, that's just ticket back the way it was originally. And I don't think that it's going to change the way we do business around here. It's not meant for everyday policy decisions.

RAJU: But do you think everybody agrees with that?

JOYCE: Probably not.

RAJU: There's a lot of concern that could cause instability in the speakership, what do you say to those folks who are concerned about that?

REP. STEVE SCALISE, (R-LA): 2Well, that's the way Congress worked for over 200 years. Nancy Pelosi is the one who changed it. We're changing it back to what it used to be. And then ultimately opening up the process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So, that last part about how Nancy Pelosi changed the rules, that was after the threats were made to John Boehner back in 2015 to use this vote to oust him from the speakership. That led to the resignation of Boehner from the job in 2015. And then Nancy Pelosi, when she came in, she made it much harder to call for such a vote, but now McCarthy was forced to cut that deal. So, it just shows you the difficult line he had to move to actually secure the speakership.

And then when it comes down to policy issues, whether it's raising the national debt limit or trying to fund the government, those are things that he'll have to get done with -- get the Senate Democrats who control that chamber on board behind whatever that plan to get to the president's desk. And you can see the challenge he has in governing only starting today, guys.

BLACKWELL: Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thank you, Manu.

CAMEROTA: With us now is Congressman Dan Meuser, a Republican from Pennsylvania. Congressman, thanks so much for being here. As Manu just laid out, I'll put it up for all of our viewers what we believe is in this rules package, which again, allows for a single member to call to vote for ousting the speaker. It targets federal official salaries, it caps spending to lower levels for defense and domestic programs, pairs debt limit with spending cuts and allows Freedom Caucus members on the Rules Committee. Are you comfortable with all of this?

REP. DAN MEUSER, (R-PA): Well, very nice to be with you. I am. We had much negotiation taking place well before the vote even began, certainly two or three votes in, 99.9 percent of this was covered. You're talking about this vacate to the chair as mentioned by now majority leader Steve Scalise, this has been in effect for 150 years. So, it shouldn't be a concern. I'd prefer to be 50 plus one on the conference side, but I think it's going to be fine. McCarthy's going to have to just deal with that.

But it really brings a high level of accountability. Everybody's voice on the Republican side is going to make a difference. And as you can see, we have a pretty diverse group. And you know, a lot of this could have gotten done without a lot of the trauma. But the main provisions of this rules package of accountability and spending in taxes, you need three-fifths in order to raise taxes.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

MEUSER: And transparency and bills are all -- are all positive developments.

CAMEROTA: Well, I'm surprised to hear you say that because when the -- when we had heard that the threshold was going to be five members to vacate the chair, so five members to oust the speaker, you had said back then, I think this was as recently as last week, that's a "really bad idea." So, how is one member better?

MEUSER: Well, there's no difference between one in five. In the end, if they were going to have five -- if they're going to have one, they would certainly be able to get five if there was something that egregious to take this on. And you're right, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea but in the -- for the -- for the matter of compromising and negotiating and getting it done and realizing that this has been in effect for the last 150 years, and the new speaker, Kevin McCarthy, was OK with it, as was others in discussions, I've come to see that you know, it's part of the rules, and you got to take the good with the bad.

CAMEROTA: How about the military cuts? How about the potential cuts to the defense budget?

MEUSER: Well, look, Alisyn, we're in very serious times here. I came into Congress four years ago. The debt -- national debt was 19 trillion. Today, it's 31 trillion. Granted, we had COVID disasters and responses, so that cost us 5 trillion. But we haven't learned, we added another $5 trillion. So, we got some real serious issues here.

And I will -- I will tell you this. This debt is the root of a lot of evils. It's the reason -- main reason behind inflation and that -- and the assault on our American energy industry.

[14:25:01] It's the main reason now for higher interest rates. It's the main reason now for the workforce shortages that exist. So, if we don't get this under control, it's a big reason for the level of payment on the debt because we're paying higher, even at higher interest rates, hundreds of millions of dollars more of taxpayer money.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

MEUSER: So, we've got control of it. It needs to be managed. It can be. We can reduce discretionary at the very least. And we can jointly work on how to rein in mandatory and excesses because the problem is, the more you spend, the more your waste. And American people are really getting tired of that.

CAMEROTA: Some of your Republican colleagues say that they don't like whatever secret backroom deals were struck to get to this point, to get Kevin McCarthy the speakership. Are you comfortable with those?

MEUSER: Well, no, right? Who would be comfortable with a backroom deal, and that you're not necessarily part of? But we -- come to the end of the day, we're talking about very good people here. I have a lot of trust in Kevin McCarthy. I've -- he's earned that trust with me. I've learned to trust him over the years.

And I was in business for nearly 25 years. I came into this job pretty cynical of Congress, as most people are. But I have faith in him and I have faith in the people that have -- that are -- that are part of any other arrangements. And what I mean by that is, you know, some of its the so-called Freedom Caucus, right? I mean, they're good people. So, if they're placed on committees to balance it out, maybe in the past, there was an imbalance.

Now, maybe this balances that out and that is not a bad thing, particularly what strengthens us, unites us, and puts us behind a pro- growth winning conservative. But when I say conservative, I mean -- I mean, an agenda that works for the vast majority of Americans, if not all. That's my definition of conservative, so -- and is responsible. So, I think in the end, it's going to work out OK.

CAMEROTA: So, what do you say to Congresswoman Nancy Mace or Congressman Tony Gonzales, who say that they don't support that, they don't like -- I mean Nancy Mace said, this is what Nancy Pelosi does, they shouldn't be doing those backroom deals, it shouldn't have all happened this way in secret?

MEUSER: Yes. Well, I have great respect for both of them, both Nancy Mace and Tony Gonzales. That's going to be up to them. They'll review the situation, have their conversations, and hopefully get comfortable with it.

Hopefully, I continue to be comfortable with it because we're all going to have these rules discussions and debates tonight. But in the end, I hope it's just, I hope it's reasonable, I hope it does create the balance that I'm talking about, and I -- and if that's the case, I certainly plan on supporting it.

CAMEROTA: OK, very quickly, one last question, yes or no. Will Kevin McCarthy keep this job for two years?

MEUSER: I certainly hope so, and I believe so, and I hope he continues to earn it knowing Kevin he will.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Dan Meuser, thanks so much for being on our show.

MEUSER: Thanks for having me.

BLACKWELL: New accusations ahead of the release of Prince Harry's tell-all, why he says his stepmother, Queen Consort Camilla, was dangerous.

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