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Ex-U.S. Atty. Robert Hur Named Special Counsel In Biden Docs Probe; Selma, AL Mayor Reports "Significant Damage" After Tornado; Embattled GOP Rep. Santos Pushes Back On Calls To Resign. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired January 12, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): Hello, everyone, I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): I'm Victor Blackwell.

Moments ago, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to oversee the investigation of classified documents found on President Biden's property. And Garland said he made the decision after U.S. Attorney John Lausch's investigation last year.

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MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: On January 5, 2023, Mr. Lausch briefed me on the results of his initial investigation, and advised me that further investigation by a special counsel was warranted. Earlier today, I signed -- I signed an order appointing Robert Hur as special counsel for the matter I've just described. The document authorizes him to investigate whether any person or entity violated the law in connection with this matter. The special counsel will not be subject to the day-to-day supervision of any official of the department.

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BLACKWELL: Earlier, President Biden confirmed that more classified documents from his time as vice president were discovered in a second location at his Wilmington, Delaware home. The president says they're -- the materials were in his locked garage.

CAMEROTA: His lawyers said another document was found in a room in the house. Just days ago, the White House revealed the first case, the president's attorneys found classified documents in a DC office building that Biden had used for his work with the University from 2017 to 2019. Republicans are now calling for investigations. Of course, they equate Biden's document case with that of former President Trump. A separate Special Counsel is overseeing the criminal probe of more than 200 classified documents that were stored at Donald Trump's Florida estate. Let's bring in CNN Manu Raju. He's live for us on Capitol Hill. Phil Mattingly is at the White House. But we begin with Evan Perez. He's at the Justice Department. So, Evan, tell us about this new special counsel, what we know, and the timing of this announcement by the Attorney General.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, yes, Alisyn and Victor, the new special counsel who's going to be investigating the Biden documents is Robert Hur. He is a former U.S. Attorney in Maryland and someone who served under the Trump administration. The attorney general making the -- making it clear that part of the reason here to do this was because of the regulations in the Justice Department, which require for the -- for an investigation like this to at least show that it was being handled independently.

Of course, we know there is an ongoing investigation of the former President, Donald Trump, and his handling of classified documents. I'll run you through just a bit of the timeline. We got a lot of new information from the attorney general in that press announcement just in the last hour.

This all began, according to him, on November 4 when the archives notified the Justice Department that they -- these documents had been -- had been turned over that it had been found a couple of days earlier by Joe Biden's legal team. And John Lausch, the U.S. Attorney in Chicago, who was a Trump -- who is a Trump appointee, was brought in just a few days later to do an initial review of these documents.

According to the attorney general, on December 20, the Biden legal team notified the Justice Department that they had found another set of documents that appears to be documents that were found at the Wilmington home of the president. And then on January 5, is when Lausch concludes the initial part of his review and he recommends that a special counsel be appointed, which is what the attorney general has now done.

It appears, by the way, Victor and Alisyn, that there was another document that was found and was turned over today, according to the attorney general. Again, this is an investigation that is now going to be looking at, you know, whether there any criminal laws were broken here, and what the special counsel is specifically being authorized to do. I'll just read you quickly what it says. It is going to -- he is going to be looking into the possible unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents and other records, and any other crimes that may have arisen as a result of the handling of these documents, Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's go to the White House now. And, Phil Mattingly, I understand that you're getting a reaction from the White House. What do they say?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yes. Victor, that's right. We're just getting the first statement from the White House Counsel's Office from Richard Sabra, the Special Counsel for President Biden, who has really been the one delivering statements over the course of these last four days. And it knows that the president has made clear repeatedly in his two public statements about this issue that he takes this issue very seriously.

But it also says, we have cooperated closely with the Justice Department throughout his review, and we will continue that cooperation with the special counsel. We are confident that a thorough review will show that these documents were inadvertently misplaced. And the president and his lawyers acted promptly upon discovery of this mistake.

[14:05:08]

And key elements there are saying that they will A., continue their cooperation which was expected they have cooperated, not necessarily in a public manner, but have cooperated with the Justice Department. And John Lausch, the U.S. attorney has been reviewing this issue for several months, pretty much across the board. Whether it was in terms of flagging when they found documents, including additional documents, including interviews, we are told, with certain individuals who may have had access to the process of packing and sending those documents away and some individuals who may have had insight into things in the wake of that process from when he was vice president.

That cooperation will continue according to the special counsel's office. But also framing this very explicitly in the statement itself as a mistake, something that was inadvertent, according to the White House Counsel's Office, something you've heard officials say privately over the course of the last several days. Now, very much so saying it explicitly.

As we've talked about, over the course of the last several days, there have just been a significant number of unanswered questions. The explanation we were always given was because this review was underway and in part because they didn't want to do anything that would trigger this very moment as special counsel. Well, that special counsel is here. And I think Evan's run-through the timeline is very important in terms of the public perception and knowledge of what's happened here, guys.

Now, very clearly, the President has said repeatedly and his team says again, just now they will continue to cooperate. Well, the president and his team over the course of Monday and Tuesday made public statements talking about a very specific set of documents, even though they had known for nearly a month prior to that, that there was an additional set, which we all reported on last night. So, this process, the kind of drip-drip that we've seen, obviously has put the White House in a very difficult political position, as we've seen on Capitol Hill, a perception problem to some degree as well.

The sense right now from White House officials is that if there is any positive way to spin this, and most White Houses that have dealt with the special counsel would have a difficult time reaching that assumption on anything, but is the fact that this is now in a special counsel's hands, and perhaps this will move a little bit faster, even if it's a little bit more painful. And they will come out of this with a definitive answer one way or another, one in which they say they don't believe they did anything wrong. We will see how that actually plays out. Certainly, this week hasn't gone in any way how they expected it to, guys.

CAMEROTA: No, it's been a surprising week. I think that is fair to say, Phil. So, Manu, what has the Republican reaction on Capitol Hill been to all this?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, we haven't yet heard officially from the House Speaker, Kevin McCarthy, or the Republican leader in the Senate, Mitch McConnell about Merrick Garland's decision to name a special counsel. There had been calls from a number of rank-and-file members, including Senator Lindsey Graham, for instance, calling for a special counsel. So, undoubtedly, they will be supported by Republicans who had already planned to probe this issue.

James Comer, who's the chairman of the House Oversight Committee, indicating today that he did plan -- does plan to have hearings on Joe Biden's handling of classified information. Comer has sent letters to the White House asking for a number of documents, including the documents that were obtained here, the remove -- the classified documents, have them turned over by later this month. We'll see how the White House decides whether or not to cooperate on that issue.

Now, when McCarthy spoke to reporters earlier today, he was asked directly about this, and he took aim at the president and his handling of this issue.

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REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA): He's an individual that sat on 60 minutes that was so concerned about President Trump's documents locked in behind and now we find it just as the vice president keeping it for years out in the open in different locations. I do not think any American believes that justice should not be equal to all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, McCarthy did indicate there will be some sort of House investigation into this matter. There's a new committee that was created just this week to investigate the Justice Department. It is expected to look into its efforts to look into Donald Trump -- the investigation into Donald Trump in his handling of this matter. The question is will that also includes a look into the investigation into Joe Biden? All of which is giving Republicans an opportunity to push ahead on this issue.

Democrats themselves have said very little about this. Many of them drawing the clear distinction between Donald Trump apparently trying to obstruct the investigation going forward. Joe Biden apparently trying to cooperate with his investigation. They're showing some distinction there, but also not saying a whole lot including Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic Leader on the House side, only really saying that he has confidence in Joe Biden, but not saying much more other than that, guys. BLACKWELL: All right. Manu, Evan, Phil, stay with us. Let's expand the conversation now, bringing in CNN political commentator Alyssa Farah Griffin, former White House Communications Director under former President Trump, and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor.

Elie, let me start with you. Manu laid out some of the distinctions between the Trump documents or the Biden documents. What do you think about this call of a special prosecutor in this case?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's the right call. It's the only call that I think Merrick Garland could have made. The hallmark of a special prosecutor is conflict of interest. If a reasonable member of the public would look at a situation and say, gee, there are some crossed wires there or that might be a situation where you might have some cross loyalties.

[14:10:03]

Well, let's start from the fact that there already is a special counsel investigating Donald Trump. I think the potential conflict of interest is obvious. Hence, there is going to be a conflict of interest probably even more so when you're talking about Merrick Garland and his DOJ investigating his own boss, Joe Biden.

I see no daylight between Donald Trump's situation and Joe Biden's situation when it comes to conflict of interest. If there's a conflict of interest to Donald Trump, there absolutely was a conflict of interest when it comes to Joe Biden, and there had to be a special counsel.

CAMEROTA: And so, Alyssa, we've laid out the differences between the way the Biden team has handled this and the way the Trump team has handled this, but I'm guessing that those distinctions are lost on Republicans today and that they are delighting in this now sort of Democrats losing the high moral ground.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes. Of course, they are. And it's a -- you know, it's rich for folks who did not criticize the former president for egregiously mishandling classified information who are now very, very upset and want to look into President Biden or then-Vice President Joe Biden's mishandling.

But I think the bigger picture is this. This is a terrible fact pattern for the president. I'm actually stunned for like, what is a highly professional team around him, just the errors that they made along the way. Like, first and foremost, the mishandling of the information where it was improperly stored.

But then the fact that you know, days before the midterms, they knew this information, didn't share it with the public, and then --

CAMEROTA: What are they supposed to the days before the midterms, would that have been realistic?

GRIFFIN: I don't know -- I think that -- I mean, listen, transparency is always the best thing. But even further, I think the fact that in December, they knew about this second tranche that's in his garage, you know, in his personal home, it's always better to rip off the band-aid and get ahead of it than have it leaked, leaked, leaked out.

BLACKWELL: Well, they had the opportunity when they acknowledged the first batch earlier this week. They already knew about the second one. They, at that time, could have said everything they knew at the time.

GRIFFIN: Well, exactly. And it just -- it undermines prior statements and undermines you know, the really strong condemnation the former -- the president made about the former president, knowing that he himself had done very similarly, frankly. The big difference, of course, which we can't say enough is Trump also obstructed. He also continues to obstruct. So, the fact patterns are different.

BLACKWELL: Sure.

GRIFFIN: But the argument -- I mean, what is being investigated is the mishandling of classified information. In that regard, they're very similar.

CAMEROTA: Yes. And that's the law, Elie, back to you. It's about the mishandling, it's about the possession of classified information, when we hear from Evan and Manu that there's going to be an investigation looking into whether there was a crime committed, how could a crime not have been committed? The classified documents were not where they were supposed to be.

HONIG: So, first of all, there is no one neat law that covers the mishandling of classified or sensitive government documents. There is a half dozen or more, all of which sort of touch on different angles of this. In the Mar-a-Lago search warrant, for example, DOJ cites two different docs -- two different laws relating to mishandling or taking or destruction of sensitive government documents. So, we'll start with that.

But how could there be a crime or could there not be a crime? The key things for any prosecutor are always going to be knowledge and intent. You have to show that any person you're going to charge with a crime, first of all, knew about the documents. If a person legitimately had no idea, there's no crime, you can't charge a crime. You also have to show that the person had some sort of criminal intent, some sort of attempt that was against the law.

The obvious example in these hypothetical scenarios would be if somebody was disseminating this information, selling it, or giving it to others. Now, that doesn't appear to be the case either with Trump and Biden based on what we know now. But that's the touchstone the prosecutors are going to be looking for both Trump and Biden, knowledge and intent.

BLACKWELL: Evan, we have plenty of recent examples of how special counsel investigation can start on one element and then the scope expands and broadens over time, and we could be looking at different things very soon. PEREZ: Yes. You know, that's the problem with special counsels and why certainly, I think throughout the history in this building, there's a resistance to doing it. I think that the -- Merrick Garland is very, very cognizant of that. He is -- he was reluctant to do the first one, Jack Smith. And I'm sure, probably felt the same way. But once he had done the first one, he absolutely knew he had to do the second one, which is Rob Hur.

I will say, though, that there is an effort here to make clear in the appointment document which the attorney general announced, in which he specifies what specific crime is being looked at. There is, of course, language that says any additional matters or crimes that may have -- may arise, especially if somebody was trying to obstruct or anything like that. One of the key parts of this, guys, is going to be, you know, the personal documents that were found alongside the president -- the classified documents, right?

One of the things that we heard in the last few days from officials is that you know, these documents were found with purely personal things having to do with the vice president's family and so on. The question is the dates of those documents, right? They're going to want to know -- the FBI is going to want to know how far back are those documents? That might indicate an intent to try to conceal the classified documents.

[14:15:09]

Those are the things that are going to be key here. The commingling of the personnel with the classified documents is going to be a key part of this investigation going forward. And I think that's where we might see, you know -- you know, the direction of this investigation. Of course, one of the complications here that we all have to talk about is the fact that we have a sitting president who is being investigated. And under regulations from the Justice Department, a sitting president cannot be charged with a crime. So, that's another complication that Rob Hur is going to have to deal with.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, obviously, this stuff that was found at Mar-a- Lago was also intermingled with personal stuff. There was clothing items, there were newspaper articles --

BLACKWELL: Pictures and magazines published -- yes.

CAMEROTA: Pictures, etcetera. Manu, Republicans have been saying, since they took control of the House, that they're going to be calling for lots more investigations. They're getting their wish. Though, I would think that investigating a dozen as we now know of the Biden documents would be a shorter investigation if that's all there proves to be than the almost 300 documents by Donald Trump. And either way, they're getting their term off to a rollicking start here.

RAJU: It's their focus on the investigations going forward. The Republicans had planned to look at a whole wide range of other issues. They still do plan to look into this whole wide range of other issues. But really the main focus, for instance of the House Oversight Committee had been to look into Biden's family affairs, family finances, look into Hunter Biden's overseas business transactions, tried to connect that to Joe Biden, that had been the big focus. That will still be a focus going ahead. But now, with this news, it's giving them a new area to push ahead, and which is why we expect a lot of effort here going forward.

The question will be when whether how the White House responds to all these requests for records. Does the White House cooperate with James Comer's request to provide this information by January 24, including communications between White House aides, the records themselves, a whole slew of documents, or do they fight the Republicans in the House? And does that lead to a subpoena fight, does that lead into a legal fight, things that we saw during the Trump administration?

There is no real clear answer to that at this point, but that is undoubtedly how they plan to pursue it. But there are two guys Democrats who have questions including Mark Warner, who's the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He wants a briefing a damage assessment about what these documents were, the impact it had on national security. And he's not the only one. I'm talking to a number of Democrats. They want to know more information, which is why the Democrats have not been very vocal on this because they're just a lot of questions that they don't have answers to yet, guys.

BLACKWELL: Elie, to you, and the question of intent, which you talked about in your first answer. Our MJ Lee at the White House just got a statement from the Special Counsel to the President, White House Counsel there -- or special counsel to the president I should say. He says that -- this is the statement. We are confident that a thorough review will show that these documents were inadvertently misplaced. How much does that matter there?

HONIG: He's thinking the exact same thing I was just talking about, knowledge and intent. And if it turns out that this was inadvertent, or Donald Trump's situation was inadvertent, there's not going to be a crime now, as you and Alyssa were just discussing. The credibility of this spokesperson for Joe Biden is not 100 percent because we now know that three days ago when they told us OK documents were discovered at this UPenn Biden office, they also knew that there were documents discovered at the president's home in Wilmington, but didn't tell us that.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HONIG: So, that's a statement from Joe Biden's people, we can take it for what it's worth, but that lawyer is keyed into the key issue here, which is knowledge and intent.

CAMEROTA: And yes --

GRIFFIN: By the way, for what it's worth -- sorry to jump in.

CAMEROTA: Yes, go ahead.

GRIFFIN: I think that Donald Trump's going to be following how Joe Biden responds to this very carefully and probably using some of the same arguments. Early on, we already saw that he tested the waters Trump did with, I don't pack my own boxes, it was staff, I wasn't aware. And I think that this is going to be something where he's paying close attention in modeling his legal response accordingly.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: That's very interesting because he's been casting about for a response, as you know. Because for a while it was well, I declassified them magically with a wave of my wand. And then people were like, you can't do that. So, now he's looking for maybe another one.

GRIFFIN: Because of the intent part of it and Elie would know this better than me, it's going to be hard to prove. Like unless there's a witness there or something in writing that suggests a reason that you took something. So, so long as he's able to say, I don't haven't packed a box in 10 years, staff did that for me, I don't know how they got there, that's a pretty strong case that he can make and it seems like that's what Biden's leaning into as well.

HONIG: There's an interesting difference here. Joe Biden continues up to including the statement there's came -- just came out moments ago to deny that he knew anything, no knowledge. Knowledge is easier than intent. Donald Trump has acknowledged --

GRIFFIN: He did not.

HONIG: Publicly that he knew, right, there are my -- he's offered up. There are my documents, I mentally declassified them, that's my stuff, etcetera. But what Trump is banking on is sort of the next step which is yes, I know those documents were in my resort in Mar-a-Lago but I had no criminal intent. So, Trump has sort of conceded step one, Biden has not conceded. That they may be well, different fact patterns.

CAMEROTA: Really interesting. Thank you all. I really appreciate it. Of course, we'll continue to follow this breaking news. The White House press secretary is expected to take questions from reporters soon, so of course, we'll bring you that.

[14:20:04]

BLACKWELL: More Republicans are calling on Congressman George Santos to resign but he is defiant and just spoke out about why he will not step down. We'll bring you those comments just ahead.

CAMEROTA: And we're following breaking news out of Selma, Alabama. The mayor there says there's significant damage from a tornado. We have a live update next.

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BLACKWELL: The Breaking News is out of Alabama. The mayor of Selma says there is "significant damage from a tornado." There are several southern states that are currently under tornado threats.

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Jennifer Gray. So, Jen, what's going on right now? JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST (on camera): Guys, we have these fast-moving storms and they are very powerful. Currently, moving through the southeast. You can see this tornado watch that we have through the afternoon and early evening hours. And here's the line of showers and storms that are pushing through Alabama into Georgia and across the southeast.

So, this tornado that impacted Selma, basically an hour ago, these storms are now on the move. So, Selma is past the danger zone, we should say, but these storms are still very powerful and potentially predict -- tornado-producing. You can see that hot pink box right there, that's a tornado warning.

[14:25:01]

That is from the same storm that impacted Selma an hour ago. So, these are very dangerous. If you live in this area, definitely get to your safe zone right now and be weather aware as we go throughout to -- throughout the afternoon. These are going to impact some big cities, Atlanta, possibly during the rush hour, guys, we could see these lines of showers and storms push through. You can see, we have a tornado warning there just on the west side of Macon as well, so this is a very dire situation.

Here's the warning area that we're looking at for this afternoon with the greatest potential for tornadoes, very strong winds, and large hail. That does include Montgomery, even Atlanta throughout the day today. So, as we put these storms in motion, you can see, heading through Atlanta this afternoon, three to five, even six o'clock, and then it pushes to the east by 6:30.

These storms are still going to be very powerful. And then finally dying down as they make their way off the coast, by the time we get into the late evening hours through the overnight. So, guys, the next couple of hours really crucial with the storms, very powerful tornado- producing storms.

BLACKWELL: All right, everybody in those areas, make sure you pay attention to your local news there. They will let you know if there's something coming. Jennifer Gray, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, despite admitting that he lied about significant parts of his resume and life experience, Republican Congressman George Santos says he has no plans to resign.

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REP. GEORGE SANTOS, (R-NY): I wish well all of their opinions, but I was elected by 142,000 people. Until those same 142,000 people told me they don't want me, we'll find out in two years. I've worked my entire life. I've lived an honest life. I've never been accused sort of anything bad doings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: OK. CAMEROTA: That's not true.

BLACKWELL: So far -- it really isn't. So far -- but a lot of it isn't. So far, at least six Republicans have called on Santos to step down. CNN's Jessica Dean joins us now. Jessica, so, let's -- first, give us the lawmakers who are calling for Santos to resign.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Right. So, we are now hearing from a handful of House Republicans, Victor and Alisyn, and key -- these are New York Republicans that are in his home state that are calling on him to resign and they're joining with people like Nancy Mace who's from South Carolina. But we continue to hear more and more from them. So, we heard from more today that are calling on George Santos to resign.

But as you heard there, he is resolute. He does not feel like he needs to step down. He is doubling -- tripling down in this case, continues as we see him in the halls to either ignore us or just say that he has no plans to step down anytime soon. Now, he also said that the constituents elected him and that he's just following what they want. That is a bit in line with what we heard from House Speaker Kevin McCarthy on this issue today. I'll let you listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: I don't see any way that he's going to have top secret. You're referring to George Santos. He's got a long way to go to earn trust. But the one thing I do know is you apply the Constitution equal to all Americans.

The voters of his district have elected him. He is seated. He is part of the Republican Conference. There are concerns with it, so he will go before ethics. If anything is found to be wrong, he will be held accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: So, we know that two New York Democrats have filed a formal House ethics complaint against Santos. They specifically want the House Ethics Committee to look into his financial disclosures. They think there is a lot to be examined there that they want the House Ethics Committee to really comb through.

But Victor and Alisyn, a couple of things remain true. Number one, he was elected but we now know that he sold voters a bill of lies with his resume that there are so many things that are untrue on that, and also discrepancies within there as well. And additionally, we also know that let's say George Santos is expelled from the House, they're going to have to have a special election. And it's possible Democrats could pick up that seat.

And the political reality is, remember, Kevin McCarthy is working with that tiny, tiny majority, which we saw of on full display last week, only four seats he can afford to lose. If Democrats pick one up, it makes that majority even slimmer. And that is just simply the political reality here. So, again, the word from GOP leadership today is let this play out. The voters have elected him. We'll see what happens with House Ethics, but this will just play out, Victor and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK. Jessica Dean, thank you very much. Joining us again is CNN political commentator Alyssa Farah Griffin. He says I've lived an honest life. I've never been accused of anything. Not true.

BLACKWELL: I knew -- I knew you'll go on there first.

CAMEROTA: He is charged with check forgery, and theft, I think, in Brazil. That's just one. I mean, I could -- I could go on. But how uncomfortable is this for Republicans? Are they as accepting of the process as Kevin McCarthy is pretending to be?

GRIFFIN: This is a real challenge specifically for Kevin McCarthy. So, both Kevin McCarthy and George Santos are standing by this line of 142,000 people elected me. Well, no, they elected an MBA candidate from NYU who worked at Goldman Sachs, who went to Baruch College who you know, lost his mom -- or his grandparents in the Holocaust, all fabrications. Not this person. We don't know some really basic things about his background, his resume, other than things like the check fraud in Brazil and the fact that he's under now dueling investigations.