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Atty General Garland Appoints Special Counsel In Biden Docs Probe; Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) Discusses About The Classified Docs In President Biden's Former Offices; Severe Weather & Tornado Threat Across Southern U.S.; McCarthy Stands By Rep. Santos, Says He Has To "Earn Trust". Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 12, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

The White House is defending the President after Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to investigate classified documents found on Mr. Biden's property. Merrick Garland says an initial investigation determined that this move is necessary. The special counsel is named Robert Hur.

Hur served as a U.S. Attorney for Maryland and was appointed by former President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRICK GARLAND, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I strongly believe that the normal processes of this department can handle all investigations with integrity. But under the regulations, the extraordinary circumstances here require the appointment of a special counsel for this matter. This appointment underscores for the public the department's commitment to both independence and accountability in particularly sensitive matters, and to making decisions indisputably guided only by the facts and the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Now, earlier President Biden confirmed that more classified documents from his time as vice president were discovered this time at his Wilmington Delaware home. Biden says the materials were locked in his garage.

BLACKWELL: His lawyer said another document was found in a room inside the house. Now, the Attorney General revealed that the Justice Department learned of the second set of documents in December, as this timeline shows here, it was in November when the President's attorney found classified documents in a D.C. office that the former - then- vice president used with his work at a university from 2017 to 2019. Republicans are now calling for investigations, trying to equate this to the case of former President Trump who had more than 300 classified documents at his Florida home. A separate special counsel is on that case.

Joining us now is CNN White House Correspondent Arlette Saenz; Senior Justice Department Correspondent, Evan Perez; Senior Political Correspondent and Anchor of INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY, Abby Phillip; and former U.S. Attorney and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Litman.

Harry, first to you, the appointment of a special counsel now and how this changes the investigation changes the look into these documents for the President.

HARRY LITMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It takes it completely out of the normal DOJ process. Hur will set up a whole special office and look into things. It's interesting, however, Victor, because under the regs, you have to see that a criminal investigation is warranted. From all we've heard, there are a policy questions, political questions.

It's unclear though what is the potential criminal liability of anyone much less Biden. But that's what Hur will be digging into. And that's what preliminarily the U.S. Attorney in Chicago dug into. So it just goes into a whole separate box now. But ultimately, you report to (inaudible) Hur, Garland himself and just as with Barr and Mueller, Garland retains ultimate authority.

CAMEROTA: So Arlette, how has the White House explained the timeline how they discovered this two months ago, but we're only learning about it now?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's one of the big questions is why they did not disclose this when they first discovered those documents at the Penn Biden Center where the President worked in between being VP and coming to the White House as president.

And now we have continuously seeing this drip, drip, drip of information come out about how - when exactly they've found those documents. Today revealing that they found additional documents at his Wilmington residence. And one thing that the White House has said in the past is that they are very limited in what they can share because they want to allow the Justice Department review to play out.

But they are clearly entering new territory when it comes to this appointment of the special counsel. And one thing that White House Counsel has tried to make clear in the most recent statement since this announcement is that they are trying to follow the protocol and comply with all of the requests that are coming their way.

They - they're pointing out that they're working with the National Archives, that they're working with the Justice Department on their request and ultimately, White House Counsel Richard Sauber said in a statement that "they're confident that a thorough review will show that these documents were inadvertently misplaced." They believe that that is what ultimately this review by the special counsel will show. But there are certainly - there's the headache of the special counsel that this White House now has to deal with and there is also messaging issues that they have to deal with as there are still questions about why exactly they didn't disclose information earlier, how these documents make - were able to make their way to the vice president's residence and in that office where he worked here in Washington, D.C.

And so in just a short while we'll be hearing from the White House Press Secretary her first availability since the special counsel was announced if you remember yesterday, she really was not able to share any information when it came to these documents related to the Penn Biden Center.

[15:05:00]

But certainly, there are so much - so many more questions awaiting this White House especially as the special counsel now gets underway.

BLACKWELL: Evan, the extraordinary circumstances that these - documents were found in the AG's boss' home, the President of the United States, so he reached this decision. How did they come to Robert Hur to take this position?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this was a textbook decision, according to the - Justice Department officials. They viewed this as something that was necessary. Certainly once John Lausch, the U.S. Attorney in Chicago who did the initial investigation, once he came back and made the recommendation, it was abundantly clear that they had to do this out of the - certainly the protection of the department to make sure that there is no conflict of interest in the way this was being handled.

Robert Hur is somebody who was a longtime career Justice Department official. He was a political appointee under Donald Trump's administration. And so what it does for the attorney general and for the Justice Department is it helps give that that appearance of independence to make sure that people understand that this was being handled independently.

CAMEROTA: We're just watching to see if Karine Jean-Pierre is speaking about this right now. We will take that as soon as she is talking about that. At the moment, she's talking about the damage from tornadoes and some Alabama (ph) that we've been talking about.

So let's continue our conversation for the moment because I don't think she's yet addressing the classified information. Abby, politically speaking, the fact that - look, there are lots of distinctions here, of course, between how President Biden's team has handled this and how President Trump's team has handled this. For instance, the National Archives didn't have to spend 14 months trying to extract these documents, what we think are 12 - oh, she's making the statement right now, let's listen.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: ... "that a small number of documents were found, and we will continue to cooperate. We have cooperated closely with the Justice Department throughout its review, and we will continue that cooperation with the special counsel. We are confident that a thorough review will show that these documents were inadvertently misplaced and the President and his lawyers acted promptly upon discovering of this mistake."

With that, my colleague is here, John Kirby, to talk through the bilat tomorrow and also - with Japan, the Prime Minister - and also the bilat with the Prime Minister of Netherlands next Tuesday. And then I'll come back.

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Good afternoon, everybody.

CAMEROTA: Let's continue talking about this for a moment what we just heard from Karine Jean-Pierre there. Harry, let me just go to you legally where she said that the evidence will reveal that these documents were inadvertently misplaced and then handled, you know, basically with alacrity, once they were discovered. Does that make a difference legally?

LITMAN: It totally makes a difference legally in terms, Alisyn, of a criminal investigation. All the laws that are in place that people are thinking about for Trump, for example, all involve intentional action, either taking it away on purpose or not giving it back on purpose.

So far, there's no indication of that and Garland could have sort of stood behind that point and pointed to the regs which require some criminal basis for investigations, but he was really playing it out of abundance of caution. And I suspect, the White House welcomes the decision, just to be able to say we're totally on the up and up and the DOJ is handling it with a Trump-appointed hardnosed U.S. Attorney which Hur is.

BLACKWELL: Abby, as Alisyn was just going to say is that the distinctions between the documents found at Mar-A-Lago and these documents found at properties related to the President, his office, his home, there's a long list of the distinctions here. But what does this realign now that they both had classified documents and they're both being investigated by special counsels?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think that the findings of additional documents is probably the most significant part of this. If this had just remained the first batch fewer than a dozen that were found by that attorney in his Penn office, I think that would be one kind of story. But it's another kind of story to find additional documents in other locations and I think that that is where the political problems really begin for President Biden because it makes it much more difficult to draw a contrast in the conduct in terms of how careful one must be with these kinds of classified documents.

That's totally putting to the side this idea of cooperation, which, as you pointed out, Victor, it's really night and day in terms of how the cooperation went with Trump versus how it went with Biden.

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But on the question of how people handle classified documents whether it was a mistake or not, the diligence that one must have with these kinds of documents, it really makes it hard for President Biden to make that argument. And I think that that is one of the reasons why this is not something that I think the Biden White House likes that they have to deal with.

However, there's no doubt in my mind that Garland really didn't have a choice, but to appoint a special counsel in this case just for the purpose of creating some sense with the public that this is being handled in a way that is outside of this relationship that Garland has, which is that Biden is his boss. And so it needs to be put to the side and handled in a separate manner to give people confidence that it's being handled even handedly.

CAMEROTA: Mm-hm. Okay, let's bring in now, Democratic Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal of Washington. She's the chairwoman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

Congresswoman, thanks so much for being here on this busy news day. How big of a political problem do you think this discovery is now for President Biden?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Well, Alisyn, it's great to be with you.

Look, I think the first thing is that this is what it looks like to have an independent Department of Justice and a president who is cooperating with, not obstructing an investigation. Second, I think that it is - there are a lot of facts that have to emerge and what occurs to me is we really need to have the intelligence community look at the bigger process by which documents get taken out of secure locations.

I mean, this is something that I've been listening to some of the analysts who say that this happens often, it happens routinely. I don't think it should. And so I do think that there needs to be a bigger look at how this happens. But all of that said, there are clear differences here and how this President is handling it, and we'll just have to wait for the special counsel to do his work.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's talk about that. Because back in September, when it came out that this was happening with Donald Trump, you tweeted Donald Trump's stole classified documents, he put not only our national security at risk, but the security and safety of our allies around the world, he must be held accountable to the full extent of the law.

Should President Biden be held to that same standard? I mean, he - you said President Biden - I'm sorry, President Trump stole the classified documents to put our national security at risk. Isn't it possible that President Biden is putting our national security at risk also?

JAYAPAL: I absolutely think that is why the Department of Justice has appointed the special counsel. But again, I would just point to the fact that these documents so far that we know, what we know is that they were kept in a locked place. That was a very small number and I don't know how important these are, they might be incredibly important. They were marked top secret.

But the storage and the approach to this is completely different. That doesn't mean that there isn't a problem here and certainly there's a political problem for all of us as Democrats. But I do think that there are significant differences and I do think it's important to look at the fact that this President is cooperating completely with the investigation. He is not obstructing. He is not saying that this is a witch hunt. He is not doing any of those things.

In fact, it is his Department of Justice that has appointed a special counsel who was appointed under Trump and who Republicans - and who was confirmed unanimously in the Senate and who Republicans and Democrats both respects. So there are significant differences. It doesn't take away my concern about the overall situation and I do think we have to continue to look at the facts.

CAMEROTA: And I just want to ask you about the timeline, because this has also come up. So we now know that the White House knew about this longer than the press or the public. So on November 4th, okay, before the midterms, the National Archives informed the DOJ - informed that the DOJ that the doc - informed the Department of Justice that these docs had been found at President Biden's former office from when he was vice president.

Some people have said that that was before the midterms. Do you think that he should have disclosed that to the public then?

PAYAPAL: There's really no way for me to know that. Obviously, we - this is going to be a part of the Department of Justice's investigation. What did they communicate at that time? What did the Department of Justice know? What did the Biden administration - what did the President think was in there? We don't know any of those facts, so I think it's early.

But I think the difference is that this has never been a president who has deliberately obstructed and stopped any investigation. He hasn't - he - his track record is very, very different. I'm glad that there's a special counsel that's going to investigate. I don't think Merrick Garland had a choice but to appoint a special counsel here, because again it's about the integrity and the interpretation of the public.

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And I do think quick resolution of this issue I hope is forthcoming, because that is important for the public to be able to trust that these things are being handled fairly.

CAMEROTA: As you know, the Republicans came in saying that one of their priorities was to investigate the Biden family and investigate the Biden administration. Do you feel that this now gives them more of a rationale?

JAYAPAL: Well, it's not great because, obviously, they will pounce on anything, regardless of how different the circumstances are. Their intent, the Republican intent is to undermine faith in the government overall and certainly in Democrats, they have an extreme Republican agenda that we have seen rolling out. We saw the chaos on the House floor and the disunity of Republicans, they are dying to have something to change the conversation from the chaos and disunity of Republicans and so this has always been their extreme agenda.

They're going to use it Alisyn. I'm used to that. I'm on the Judiciary Committee. I've seen it over and over again, when there's nothing to talk about. And you give them a little piece of information like this. And clearly they're going to they're going to try to push on it.

But I think it's up to us to keep calling on these fundamental pieces, is the President obstructing an investigation? This President is not. Is the Department of Justice operating independently? This Department of Justice is. And so, I think these are big differences that the public really needs to take into consideration.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Pramila Jayapal, thanks so much for your time.

JAYAPAL: Thank you, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Abby Phillip, let me come to you and what we heard there from the Congresswoman, we're going to hear from Democrats discussing now nuance and distinctions. Republicans trying to say, oh, it's pretty much the same here. Look at what - and we heard it from Speaker McCarthy saying he had documents on locked everywhere. When we look back at the Trump documents, it's much the same.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, as a Republican told me this week, they're not going to be playing in the nuance of this at all. I think they see that as just the political reality of it. But I mean, I do think we have a responsibility to the facts here, which is just to point out that there are really significant differences in the handling of these two cases by former President Trump and by now President Biden.

And those significant differences matter when it comes to the legalities of it all. And beyond that, I mean, I did listen to Speaker McCarthy's comments this morning and some of the things that he said about how this was handled, certainly, were just not true.

I mean, the archives at the DOJ spent months and months working with the Trump team to get those documents back. And it ended in a search of Mar-A-Lago because the Trump team wasn't playing ball. That is not at all what happened here, even now that we found an additional batch of documents.

So politics obviously, sometimes can be the lack of nuance. I don't think we necessarily have to play that game. However, I do think the reality of it is, is that if you're Biden and you want to draw a clear contrast in how classified documents were handled, full stop, this makes that harder. On the other hand, the obstruction part of this is basically apples and oranges.

CAMEROTA: Okay, Arlette, Evan, Abby and Harry, thank you all very much. BLACKWELL: A growing number of Republicans, lawmakers especially demanding George Santos to resign from Congress, how Santos is responding to the pressure, that's next.

CAMEROTA: We also have live pictures for you right now in Alabama, a tornado emergency is underway, because severe storms are moving through this area. Significant damage is being reported so we have another live report and the latest for you just ahead.

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CAMEROTA: A tornado emergency declared in Tallapoosa County, Alabama. More than a hundred thousand customers are without power in at least three states. There is significant structural damage and power lines down across the state. Some reports of injuries are coming in. But an emergency responder just told us it could take some time to reach everyone affected by the storm.

BLACKWELL: Jennifer Gray is following the storm in the CNN Weather Center. Jen, what's the latest?

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN WEATHER CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes them a while to get to some of these places with the downed trees downed power lines. That's the trend that we're seeing. Very gusty winds along this line of storms, so we are going to expect some downed trees, power lines, power outages because of it. We're going to see the possibility of tornadoes as well.

We are under a tornado watch for portions of the southeast where that red box is. This is a closer look at some of the warnings. We now have a tornado warning for portions of eastern - or Eastern Alabama and Western Georgia. This is LaGrange. This is just south of Atlanta.

So these storms are moving very quickly to the east. If you are in this area, you've got to get to your safe spot immediately. So this is all part of this same line of showers and storms that impacted Selma, just in the last two hours or so.

And you can see the storms, all of these orange boxes, the thunderstorm warnings and then the hot pink boxes are those tornado warnings. This is a very active situation ongoing for the next several hours at least. This area shaded in orange, that's our greatest chance for several tornadoes, damaging winds, large hail. As we know, this line of showers and storms has already produced all of that, so this is a very volatile situation as we go forward in time moving through Atlanta within the next hour or two, and then it'll be pushing into eastern sections of Georgia into the Carolinas.

Mid-Atlantic and the Northeast will also get showers and storms from this. We don't think it'll be quite as severe, especially compared to the southeast. But guys, this is an ongoing situation. Definitely dangerous for the southeast for the next several hours we're getting into those rush hour as well. So people's commute is definitely going to be on the rough side, guys. BLACKWELL: Crucial time. Jen Gray for us, thank you.

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CAMEROTA: So House Speaker Kevin McCarthy today is saying that Congressman George Santos has a long way to go to earn trust and now we're learning more about the long list of lies that helped the New York Republican win a seat in Congress.

BLACKWELL: The New York Times has now a copy of Santos' his resume that he gave to Long Island Republican officials two years before his run for Congress.

CNN Congressional Correspondent Melanie Zanona is with us now. So Melanie, let's talk about the pressure that's coming from other members of the Republican conference for Santos to step down.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, there is a growing chorus of Republicans who are now calling on Santos to resign and that includes several members of the New York delegation, just take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): He's lost the confidence of people in his own community. So I think he needs to seriously consider whether or not he can actually do his job effectively. And right now, it's pretty clear he can't.

REP. MARC MOLINARO (R-NY): I don't think there's any way he could possibly perform his duty.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So are you saying that he should resign?

MOLINARO: There's no way I believe he can fully fulfill his responsibilities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, one person who is not calling on Santos to resign is Speaker Kevin McCarthy. He told reporters today at a press conference that he believes that should be up to the voters to decide the fate of Santos. But Kevin McCarthy did say that depending on what a potential House Ethics Committee investigation finds, he will be held accountable.

But we are continuing to learn about this growing list of lies. As you mentioned, the New York Times obtained a resume that Santos gave to Republican officials and I think we should just go through this because it is pretty remarkable what he had on here.

Santos said he earned a 3.89 GPA from Baruch College and graduated at the top 1 percent of his class. Well, he never even went there. He said he earned an MBA from NYU, again, never attended that university. Santos said he was an asset manager at Citigroup. He never worked there. And he said he was a project manager at Goldman Sachs, which once again, he did not work at.

So this is just more than an embellishment. These are outright lies. I don't know who the person is on this resume, but it certainly isn't George Santos. So he misrepresented himself to not only his voters, but also to the Republican officials and I think that is why you are starting to see the backlash grow in the GOP in New York. Victor? Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Okay. Melanie Zanona, thank you.

BLACKWELL: A very specific GPA there, 3.89 ...

CAMEROTA: Do you have that on your resume right now?

BLACKWELL: ... because three - no, and 3.9 wouldn't be believable.

CAMEROTA: No, no.

BLACKWELL: So 3.89 is the one we grow with.

CAMEROTA: Much more creditable.

BLACKWELL: All right. Let's go now to Joe Walsh, former Republican Congressman from Illinois, the host of the White Flag podcast.

Congressman, it is good to see you. Let me start with the big question here. Do you agree with these Republicans who say that George Santos should resign?

JOE WALSH, (R) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FOR ILLINOIS: Boy, Victor, I would have loved the 3.9 GPA, my word.

Look, I - you're going to hear a smattering of individual Republicans calling for him to resign. But I don't think you're going to see congressional Republicans and certainly not leadership, not McCarthy and the rest of them. They need his vote. They need his seat. They want and hope that this will just flow over.

And Santos himself, Victor, he's going to do what every Republican has learned from Donald Trump, when you've done something wrong, never admit you've done wrong, never apologize, never tell the truth, never exhibit any shame. Instead, what is Santos' been doing? He's been doubling down, punching back, fighting back and lying. So I think he'll keep fighting.

BLACKWELL: Yes. I mean, the first week that he was in Congress, waiting to take the oath, the big story was the Speaker fight. And now there's the special counsel investigating the Biden document. So there are other stories that are pushing him to the background a bit. But how big of a political problem is this for Republicans as the cameras are following him every step of the way on Capitol Hill?

WALSH: It's a problem, Victor, but I don't think the cameras will keep following him for these next two years, because as you just said, it certainly seems like every week there's one big story after another. Look, I - it's a Democratic district, the district from which Santos now represents. I can't imagine George Santos ever getting reelected. I'd be really surprised if he ran again. I think if you're Kevin McCarthy, you want this to blow over and I think generally will because they want his seat and his vote for the next two years.

BLACKWELL: Let's listen to - this is an interesting lineup here, you've got George Santos on Steve Bannon's War Room with Matt Gaetz sitting in as host. Here's what he said about the plans to remove him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): I wish well all of their opinions. But I was elected by 142,000 people. Until those same 142,000 people tell me they don't want me, we'll find out in two years.

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