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Biden Dogged By Queries On Classified Docs Found On His Properties; Treasury Secy. Warns U.S. Could Default On Debt As Soon As Next Week; Authorities "Finding More Bodies" In Hard-Hit Central Alabama County. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 13, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

President Biden will head to Delaware for the weekend, but he cannot escape the continuing fallout from the classified documents found on his properties that are now part of a special counsel investigation. President Biden dodged questions about it today during an Oval Office photo op.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

(INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: About moments ago, the White House press secretary repeated that the president will cooperate with Special Counsel Robert Hur. But she again failed to explain why the public was not told about the classified documents when they were first discovered in November.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it the policy of the White House that they should share that information not just with the National Archives, but with the Americans?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So, I will say this, Kristen, we have been transparent in the last couple of days in -- remember there's an ongoing process and we have spoken when it is appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: We're also learning more about the investigation. The Justice Department has interviewed Biden's former executive assistant who was on the team that packed up his office at the end of the Obama administration, also in regard to the classified documents discovered one was a memo from Biden to President Obama. There were also two briefing memos preparing Biden for phone calls with foreign leaders. It's unclear how much of this is still sensitive.

Let's go now to CNN's chief White House correspondent Phil Mattingly and CNN's senior justice correspondent Evan Perez. Phil, I'll start with you. The White House press secretary, more questions on this today. Is there any change in the communication strategy from the White House?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No. And I mean, I don't -- I don't think the expectation is there's going to be based on what we've seen over the course of the last several days. And to some degree, that's a recognition of a very new phase that they're in right now. One that carries a lot of risks when a special counsel gets involved in an investigation.

Keep in mind. This had been reviewed from a U.S. Attorney. This had been the president's personal attorneys doing their own search and review as well. A special counsel puts this in a very different level and a very different set of risks that they need to weigh as they go through this process.

Now, that doesn't necessarily help us understand better what has happened over the course of the last several months as this has played out, but it does underscore the fact that in the course of the last four days, as we have received two different statements from the White House Counsel's Office, two different public statements from the president, the first of which seemed to omit the very important elements of the second. In both cases, there has been a recognition that going out while this review is still underway, while the personal attorney review is still underway, and letting this kind of drift piece by piece by piece was certainly not helpful. And to some degree, as Evans reported, played a role in the decision to put a special counsel in place in the first place.

At this point in time, as they ramp up for this very new reality, as they put the process in place to deal with a special counsel, something they A., didn't want and B., certainly weren't expecting at the start of this week, you're not going to hear a lot more publicly about it from them. I think that is now kind of their permanent posture to some degree.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, Evan, tell us what are the next steps now?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the next step is for Bob Hur, the -- Rob Hur, the new special counsel to start opening an office and bringing people inside who are going to be doing the investigation. And as Phil pointed out, you know, there was an early part of this, which was being done by a U.S. Attorney Chicago -- in Chicago with John Lausch. He conducted and his team conducted a number of interviews not only with the president's former executive secretary, but now, they're going to go on and want to talk to additional people. They're going to want to know whether there's the possibility of additional documents and how do you make sure that there are no more documents out there.

We've seen a parallel situation with the investigation into Trump's mishandling of -- the former President Trump's mishandling of classified documents. In that case, has been a lot more combative. The Justice Department and the White House right now are projecting that you know, it's been more cooperative. But that cooperation is going to really hit a test when the new special counsel starts making demands and starts asking for things. We'll see how much cooperation happens then.

BLACKWELL: So, Phil, in addition to the special counsel's investigation, we've now learned that the House Judiciary Committee has now launched an investigation into these documents, of course, chaired by Jim Jordan, who has promised accountability for this White House. Give us an idea of the mood in the West Wing as this week now closes out.

MATTINGLY: You know, I think the best way to probably frame things is just how stunned everybody is by how this has progressed over the course of just four or five days.

[14:05:05]

Think about it. Monday morning when White House officials -- when the president woke up the idea that a special counsel would be in place by the end of the week, I think would have been framed as completely absurd and totally irrational. By Monday night when this broke even over the course of the first two or three days after this news broke, there was every view inside the White House that one, they were doing everything possible not to end up with a special counsel, and two, they did not believe what they had found, despite the fact there were two separate occasions where documents had been discovered, merited a special counsel.

So now, being in this place right now, I think there are two elements here. There's one, kind of the scramble to put together a team to deal with the new reality of having a special counsel. But I think, two, there's a moment of you know, you showed the pictures of the president meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Kishida, that was a critical moment, a culmination of two years of work to put Japan in an extraordinarily different defense posture that the U.S. has long wanted them to move into. Just yesterday, you had them talking about the deceleration of inflation, the thing that had been the anvil over this administration's head for the better part of a year.

Those were two critical moments really showing some critical progress that the president wanted to talk about, wanted to show, and hold up. And instead, they are now dealing with this and that's probably not going to change anytime soon. And that is a very, very different moment to be in than they were just a couple of days ago, guys.

CAMEROTA: So, Evan, obviously, the scope I would imagine of this is different. There's 12, as far as we know, classified documents with President Biden, there were more than 300, or something to that effect with President Trump. So, what's the -- how will these investigations proceed differently if at all? PEREZ: Yes. No, it is a very different situation. I mean, the Trump investigation right now, a lot of it is a -- is an obstruction investigation. And we see, you know, just from the reporting of Katelyn Polantz and Kaitlan Collins today that, you know, the former president is in court fighting with the Justice Department. The Justice Department wants to talk to the people who did additional searches of other Trump properties, and this is a very litigious process.

One of the reasons why we know so much about what happened with the Trump documents is because, you know, he went to court and he started fighting with the Justice Department. And that forced us to be able to see a lot of the documents that were going back and forth. So, this one is definitely a lot different because the Biden team has, you know, tried to be cooperative. They say that they offered -- you know, they reached out to the Justice Department, reached out to the archives with these documents. We know that they've already interviewed a number of people who were involved in this. It is a much different process.

And from the scope of the appointment memo that we saw yesterday, guys, you can see that you know, this is an investigation into the possible mishandling of classified documents. Now, we'll see whether it -- you know there's something else that pops up, but at this point, we're in a far different place than in the Trump administration -- the Trump investigation, Victor and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK. Evan Perez, Phil Mattingly, thank you both very much.

Joining us now, our CNN political director David Chalian, and Tom Dupree who helped lead the Justice Department as Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General. So, Tom, I want to start with you because of that. So, what can you see in terms of the difference in scope here? And what's the timeline that we're looking at to get more answers?

TOM DUPREE, FORMER PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure. I think the timeline here you got to think about in terms of months, not years. I think that the scope of Rob Hur's investigation is limited, I think it is relatively speaking narrow, as far as independent counsel investigations go. So, I don't think it will take him too long to stand up an office, get his team in place, and then just do the dirty work of the kind of figuring out, you know, where these documents progressed, who saw them, whether or not there was unauthorized access, and that sort of thing. So, I would anticipate that Rob will move quickly and that he will wind up this investigation within a year.

BLACKWELL: David, some of the messaging from the White House has been criticized, even by some Democrats, I mean, that they knew that these documents, the second batch, existed when they acknowledged only the first. They say that they did everything right. Once the attorneys found them, they contacted National Archives, but some of these potential errors, our own goals, that they are making these communications decisions. DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. And they've acknowledged obviously, the legal team has the initial what they called a mistake about the documents being in the wrong place in the first place. To your point about the communications, I mean I think as you guys were discussing with Phil, the biggest question hanging over the White House is, you seem to want points from the American people that you immediately notified the archives, who then in turn notified the Justice Department when these documents were found at the beginning of November, why didn't you notify the American people? We don't have an answer to that question. We just have we're following a process here but there's no answer from the White House about why they chose not to be transparent with the American people at that time, which of course was a week before the midterm election.

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CAMEROTA: Tom, it's interesting. Even as this begins, even as this into -- you know, the Biden classified documents, this investigation begins, there's still a lot happening with the investigation into the Trump classified documents. And so, just to catch people up, they -- the Trump team, it turns out, we now know from our reporting that they hired two outside people just after Thanksgiving to search four locations because as you know, there's still a question as to whether or not they've actually --

BLACKWELL: Handed everything over. Yes.

CAMEROTA: Turned everything over to the National Archives.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And there's reason to believe if they have entered that they've been at least sloppy because they had to resort to that grand jury subpoena and the search warrant at Mar-a-Lago. So, they've now searched Mar-a-Lago, two places, office and storage, Trump Tower in New York, and Bedminster golf club, but not the Scotland golf course or the hotel in Las Vegas. So, it sounds like -- I mean there's still -- it sounds like just at the beginning, on off into the beginning, but still in the process of even trying to figure out if the National Archives has everything.

DUPREE: Yes. And this is why I think it's likely -- or that the Biden investigation may wrap up sooner than the Trump investigation precisely for the reasons you mentioned. I mean, in the Trump investigation, they're still trying to figure out exactly what documents are missing. Do they have all of them back? Are there other locations that need to be searched?

It doesn't seem like that's the case with Biden. I'm hedging a little bit because it seems like on the Biden front, every day comes with the discovery of some new trove of documents. So, it's possible there'll be more shoes to drop. But at least what we know right now, it does seem like the Biden situation is more contained and discrete than the Trump investigation, which is kind of sprawling and wide-ranging.

BLACKWELL: David, the president said that he intends to run for reelection, but that announcement has not come. How much does this special counsel now potentially recalibrate those considerations?

CHALIAN: Yes. There's not a source that I've spoken to that says this will have an impact on the president's final decision-making process about whether or not to seek a second term. And in all signs, of course, Victor and Alisyn, are pointing that he will do that. That's certainly the expectation.

But it clearly could indeed, enter into the calculus around timing. You're not going to want to announce a presidential reelection campaign on the same day that you may be scheduled to testify before the special counsel if that comes to be. So, it may indeed play into some timing considerations, but I've not heard a single source suggest to me that it will actually impact the decision itself.

CAMEROTA: David, in terms of politics, it's been interesting to see how the tables have turned on both sides. I mean, rarely do we see something with this much whiplash this quickly. I mean, the Republicans who are now very -- you know, there's a lot of handwringing about the Biden documents when they were often silent after the Trump documents. And similarly, there's a lot of Democrats saying we just need to take a deep breath and you know we shouldn't jump to conclusions when there was a lot of handwringing. Here's just a little snippet from the Republicans' change of face.

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REP. JAMES COMER, (R-KY): What I've seen that the National Archives was concerned about Trump having in his possession didn't amount to a hill of ink. I don't know what documents were at Mar-a-Lago.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Is it fair to say that investigation won't be a priority?

COMER: That will not be a priority. This is very concerning. I mean, this is now the second location that the president was in possession of classified documents. Look, what the vice president doing with classified documents?

REP. MIKE TURNER, (R-OH): This is so outrageous that this has to rise to the level of -- their better be -- this better not be a clerical issue between the archivist and the former president. I've been in the Oval Office with the president, and I'd be very surprised if he has actual documents that rise the level to meet national security threats.

These facts and circumstances are just absolutely outrageous. I mean, this is completely mishandling of classified information. Why did he have these documents? When did he get them? Did he get them when he was vice president, and then take them with him when he left?

JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Are you going to hold hearings?

TURNER: It is possible that we will hold hearings on them.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CAMEROTA: And, David, before you comment, I feel in the interest of balance, we should show some of that on the Democrat's side as well. So, let me see if we have that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D-CA): The fact that they were in an unsecured place that is guarded with nothing more than a padlock where whatever security they had at a hotel is deeply alarming. I think it is concerning whatever classified documents are somewhere that shouldn't be, where we see no evidence of deliberate intent or obstruction of justice as we see in the case of Donald Trump in Mar-a-Lago.

REP, DANIEL GOLDMAN, (D-NY): This is likely criminal what has happened at Mar-a-Lago and you have to wonder why was he hiding these documents even when they were requested. But you also have to wonder with someone who you cannot trust like Donald Trump, what else is there? Of course, I'm concerned. I think the president is concerned. That is obviously you know, unintentional and outside of the requirements of our intelligence laws, classified information must remain in secured compartments.

[14:15:06]

But the cooperation is coming from the Biden administration and the president's lawyers. And there was zero cooperation from Donald Trump who tried to do everything possible not to cooperate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: All right, David, your thoughts?

CHALIAN: They could like write each other scripts. And then depending on the news, they can -- and say, hey, you do my part this time and I'll do your part. I -- it's like the old Casa Blanca line. I know, our audience will be shocked, shocked to find politics at play here.

Listen, it is interesting to hear the Republicans so concerned about this right now because as they express concern, given the Biden situation, I think that they actually bolster what the Democrats were saying back in the summer about the seriousness of the Trump situation. And perhaps that's not their intent in this moment.

BLACKWELL: All right. David Chalian, Tom Dupree, thank you.

DUPREE: Sure.

BLACKWELL: Just in. The Treasury Department warned the U.S. will reach the debt ceiling on January 19, and that extraordinary measures must be taken to avert defaulting.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Moments ago, the White House press secretary said it's up to Congress now to take action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEAN-PIERRE: There's been bipartisan cooperation when it comes to lifting the debt ceiling. And that's how it should be. That's how we should continue. It's not an -- it's not and should not be a political football. This is not political gamesmanship. And we're -- there's -- this should be done without condition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Matt Egan joins us now. Matt, this is much sooner than was predicted.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, we have another debt ceiling fight brewing here. Let's just remind everyone what we're talking about. So, the debt ceiling is the federal limit on borrowing. And every once in a while, Congress brushes up against that, and the lawmakers have to raise the debt ceiling or avoid a default, which would be catastrophic. I mean Mark Zandi once told me it would be "financial Armageddon." Because if they don't raise the debt ceiling in time, then you would have chaos in markets, you could have a recession that hits everyone, and also the government might have to stop payments to everyone from federal employees to military salaries, Medicare benefits, Social Security checks. So, this is a big deal.

I'm not saying it's going to happen but I just to set the stakes here. So, the debt limit currently stands at $31 trillion. It was last raised at the end of 2021. And Treasury Secretary Yellen is now saying the debt ceiling is going to be reached next week. So, what they can do in the meantime, though, is they can do some, on basically accounting gimmicks, they're called extraordinary measures. In this case, they're going to stop -- temporarily suspend investments in some federal retirement accounts.

Now, this buys them time. They don't know exactly how much time but Yellen says that they don't think that they're going to actually run out of cash until early June. But Yellen is still urging Congress to act very soon. Let me read you a cue line from this letter that she sent today. She said, "failure to meet the government's obligations would cause irreparable harm to the U.S. economy, the livelihoods of all Americans, and global financial stability." So, this all sets the stage for what could be a pretty epic fight over the next six to nine months over the debt ceiling.

BLACKWELL: All right. Matt Egan, thank you.

EGAN: Thanks.

CAMEROTA: Thanks, Matt. OK, with us now, Republican Representative Brad Wenstrup of Ohio. He served on the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for being here. Let's just start with that news.

REP. BRAD WENSTRUP, (R-OH): Yes.

CAMEROTA: You're going to hit the debt ceiling next week, I mean, much sooner -- the debt limit, much sooner than was predicted. So, are you going to vote to raise it? WENSTRUP: Well, I'm going to expect that we will see what we've seen in the past, Alisyn, where we go to extraordinary measures. But you know, at the end of the day, we always end up paying our bills, but I don't think it's uncalled for, for us to sit and say just as a family may do, say look, we keep increasing our debt, we keep borrowing more money, we've got to make a plan so that we don't keep doing that because it doesn't have a good end. So, hopefully, there'll be reasonable conversations that take -- can take place -- take place across the aisle and we come to something that will work for everybody. But you know, at the end of the day, and I think you've been around this long enough, it always gets paid but it's not a bad idea to try and turn things around so that we don't find ourselves in this situation time after time.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I have seen this before. It does always get paid, but it's not pretty watching how it happens.

WENSTRUP: No.

CAMEROTA: So, I imagined that might happen again. So, Congressman, I imagine that you were just listening as we were playing how Republicans had a different reaction to Donald Trump's declassified documents being found at Mar-a-Lago versus at President Biden's home and office, and then how Democrats had a different reaction to the classified documents being found at Mar-a-Lago versus President Biden's home. You are speaking out now about the classified documents at President Biden's home and office, and you think the American people deserve to know more about them. Why weren't you as vocal when this was happening with Donald Trump?

WENSTRUP: Well, I wouldn't say that I wasn't vocal. What did I say? I --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, I --

WENSTRUP: (INAUDIBLE)

CAMEROTA: Yes, the only thing -- the only reason --

WENSTRUP: You know, let me -- let me just spend --

CAMEROTA: Go ahead -- go ahead.

WENSTRUP: No, what I was going to say is I sit on the intelligence committee. And what I had recommended and what we did as members of the intelligence committee, and it was only Republicans that day, when the Mar-a-Lago raid took place, we came out and said if we have a significant national security risk here, then we should be briefed on it.

[14:20:14]

That's our role. That's our responsibility on the intelligence committee to be kept apprised of national security risks. That's all I said.

CAMEROTA: Right. That's my point.

WENSTRUP: And you know --

CAMEROTA: Hold on, Congressman, that was my point.

WENSTRUP: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Because this happened on April 7 with Donald Trump, the National Archives publicly acknowledged that they were having a hard time getting the documents back. And then four months later, when the raid happened, you spoke out about the raid. Basically, you were upset that they had taken those measures. So, that was four months. But now you're speaking out more vocally and quickly about the classified documents at Biden's home and office.

WENSTRUP: Well, I think you're classifying me with other people/ But if you're asking me what I spoke about, I'm saying the same thing in this situation as I said back then. If there's a national security risk, we should be briefed on it for one. I -- and you know why weren't we? Look, a violation is a violation on either side of this. And I've heard some people say, well, depends on the level of the potential damage. the level -- it is the level of the potential damage that I guess some people are concerned about.

I'm concerned, were any of these documents, how revealing are they, and were they breached at all, you know? But you do -- you do have to look at it, Alisyn, and say look at Mar-a-Lago, it was very overt, it was -- it was a massive raid. In the Biden situation, it was more covert, it was quiet. It -- you know, it happened before the election, too and we didn't hear about it. And you hear those questions being asked. Both of these things occurred before the election.

But here's what I -- what I'm concerned about considering what we do in the Intelligence Committee. You know, we go into a secure facility and we make sure we don't leave with anything that's classified. Our staff makes sure. All our documents are numbered. We make sure that all of them are retrieved before we walk out of there.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

WENSTRUP: I don't know the situation in the White House. But where are the archives? I want to know the role of the archives in either of these situations because how are people able to just box things up and walk out with them? Because in our situation on the Intelligence Committee on either side of the aisle, it just doesn't happen.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

WENSTRUP: It can't happen.

CAMEROTA: Right. So -- I mean --

WENSTRUP: And I mean -- (INAUDIBLE)

CAMEROTA: I hear you, and it's --

WENSTRUP: Just to make sure it doesn't happen. Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes. it sounds like something needs to change because this does seem to be concerning that this has happened. But the National Archives figured it out with the Trump documents, obviously, and they were alerted to it with the Biden documents whether or not that makes a difference.

While we're here, I also want to ask you about what Congressman Matt Gaetz has just announced. So, he has just said that as part of this deal that people didn't know about until last night that he made in order to support Kevin McCarthy becoming speaker that he got an assurance from Kevin McCarthy that he would release all of the security foot -- camera footage from the January 6 insurrection. That's what he wanted Kevin McCarthy to agree to. Do you like that idea and that deal?

WENSTRUP: Well, I think -- I think America should have access, or at least Congress have access to anything that may have been out there from that day even communications that Nancy Pelosi maybe had that day along with everybody who may have been involved. Look, I was involved in the shooting at the baseball field and you know, this was a situation where we were at great risk. And certainly, the balance of power in the United States of America House of Representatives could have been changed that morning if Steve Scalise wasn't there and Capitol Police wasn't there.

So, if we can learn from what was not in place and what needs to be in place to protect our beautiful Capitol, and all of those of us that work there, I would like to do that. I want to do include the events of June 14, 2017, at the baseball field with the January 6 Commission. I went to rules and offered that because I thought it was important that we look at all aspects of how we are protected. And that was voted down and ruled in a partisan fashion. So, you know, I think -- look, a little -- get a little sunshine on everything but I have no idea what Matt Gaetz said to Kevin McCarthy. I'm just speaking from, you know, where I sit.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

WENSTRUP: And I think we deserve to know what happened and how we can do better in the future.

CAMEROTA: Yes. But I'm thinking your last point is also an interesting point, which is do you know these ideals at this point that were made with some of the holdouts that Kevin McCarthy struck with them?

WENSTRUP: If there's a one-on-one deal of some type, that is outside of my realm, I have no idea.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Brad Wenstrup, thank you.

WENSTRUP: You're welcome.

BLACKWELL: Deadly tornadoes ripped through the south causing significant damage along the way. We are live in Alabama with the latest.

CAMEROTA: And the only child of Elvis Presley has died, what we know now about Lisa Marie Presley's sudden death.

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[14:28:49]

CAMEROTA: The National Weather Service says that a tornado that moved through Selma, Alabama was at least an EF2. Nine people are dead following yesterday's severe storms.

BLACKWELL: The Birmingham National Weather Service also says that officials have found EF3 tornado damage in hard-hit Autauga County, Alabama. That's the same spot where authorities said they're now finding more bodies today. CNN's Ryan Young is there. Ryan, what have you found?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, that's tough news when you hear about the people who lost their lives in these. But you understand how quickly the storm hit and the destruction that are left behind. Look at this right here. This was one of those large awnings outside almost a gas station. And you can see how the storm pulverized this area.

We've been talking to folks all day long, who talked about the loud sound and all the power of the wind that came through here. Look at this twisted metal as I walk out here, you can see how the storm just really threw this all to the side. And this is something that everyone has been stopping and looking at. This is Broad Street here in Selma. And look at what the storm was able to do to this rooftop. It blew it all the way over.

Back in this direction, there were people who were inside the stores that were over here. They were running for their lives. They were terrified by what was going on. They ran into closets. Some of their cars are still frozen in a position because the roof was on top.