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Memphis to Release Video of Fatal Nichols Arrest. Aired 10:30- 11a ET

Aired January 27, 2023 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:33:59]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, all but one of the five officers charged with second-degree murder among other charges in the beating of Tyre Nichols is out on bond. Tonight, of course, the nation is bracing because they will -- anybody in the country will have the opportunity to see that video, to see why the police chief took immediate action after watching videos of what happened to Tyre Nichols.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: It's going to be quite a moment. CNN's Don Lemon spoke to Tyre's parents in their first interview since charges were announced against those officers. His mother says she was not able to watch any of that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROWVAUGHN WELLS, TYRE NICHOLS' MOTHER: And I know I didn't see it. But from what I hear, it's horrific. And the humanity of it all. Where was the humanity? They beat my son like a pinata. My son weighed a buck 50. He was 6'3" and he weighed a buck 50.

[10:35:01]

And those men, if you combine their weights, they all -- it was over a thousand pounds, beating and beating 150-pound person to death because that is what they did. They beat my son to death.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: He cried out for his mom?

ROWVAUGHN WELLS: Yes. Yes, he cried out for me. Because I'm his mother. And that is what he was trying to get home to safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A mother's grief there. Well, Tyre's father did watch that video. He described to Don what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RODNEY WELLS, TYRE NICHOLS' STEPFATHER: I saw officers hitting on him. I saw officers kicking him. One officer kicked him like he was kicking a football a couple of times. And -- but the most telling thing about the video to me was the fact that it was maybe 10 officers on the scene and nobody tried to stop it or even after they beat him, and they propped him up against a car, no one rendered aid to him whatsoever. They walked around, smoking cigarettes like it was all calm and like, you know, bragging about what happened.

LEMON: An hour of video?

RODNEY WELLS: Yes.

LEMON: And you saw him just sitting there?

RODNEY WELLS: He was sitting there and then he slumped over. And officer walked to him and said, sit back up. Mother -- MF, you know. And while he's handcuffed. So he had -- they pop him back up and he's slumped over again. And they pop him back up again. But no one was rendering aid.

I saw some fire department people come out there. And they just walked around and nobody showed him any aid and they're supposed to be trained in first aid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: With us now, Memphis mayoral candidate and school board member Michelle McKissack, and Justin Hansford, he's a law professor at Howard University, executive director of the Thurgood Marshall Civil Rights Center.

Good to have you have both on. Listen there are so many things to digest. I mean, first among them is a family's pain here. I do want to get to some of the legal issues if we can. And Justin, a consistent feature we have seen in deadly police encounters is the traffic stop. I mean, you go back to Daunte Wright, for instance, stopped for having an air freshener on his rearview mirror. Here, the police chief openly questioning the idea that he had been recklessly driving prior. Is that a broader problem? The police traffic stop itself?

JUSTIN HANSFORD, PROFESSOR, HOWARD UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Yes, well, first, thanks for having me. The D.C. Police Reform Commission here in the nation's capital where I live, last year recommended that we take police out of traffic stops in this city for that very reason. We have other ways to be able to enforce traffic violations without having people with guns and with the ability or the training of using violence and deadly force to subdue people who are simply out trying to get from one place to another.

So those are some serious proposals that we need to weigh the pros and cons of. I know that the phrase abolish the police has been so controversial, but we have to get past our emotional responses to particular phrases and really find solutions that are going to be based on the merits of our proposals, the pros and cons.

HILL: Yes. It's important to actually sit down and look at the facts and look at what would and would not work based on experience. It's such an important point.

Michelle, as we look at this, you are a member of the community and have been for some time there. Both as a journalist, you're now in the school board. You recently threw your hat in the ring -- in the race for mayor. Your sons were also part of the skate community as I understand it. You have a son who is close in age to Tyre Nichols.

When you look at how this is being handled by the police chief, by the D.A. who we know has met with members of community, how is that being received in the broader community in Memphis? Is it what people need? Is it enough?

MICHELLE MCKISSACK, CHAIR, SHELBY COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD OF EDUCATION: Well, first of all, thank you for having me and the police chief, from what I've heard in the community and certainly what I've seen personally, we want to applaud Chief Davis for her swift action and answering -- actually making it more calm in the city because she didn't wait until the video to come out. And as far as our district attorney, Steve Mulroy, he's being very forthright as well. That is what people want.

When you give them information instead of having them to wonder in their heads and the rumors that they're referring, it helps keep the facts out there and to let them know that they're being listened to.

[10:40:07]

SCIUTTO: Justin, it was interesting to me and notable to me to see the police chief repeatedly bring up duty of care. That the officers involved, she was saying, did not exercise, did not abide by that duty of care. I believe legally, is it true that the duty of care supersedes even a duty to arrest, right? Is that right? In other words, that that is the primary responsibility in many of these interactions?

HANSFORD: Yes, well ultimately this is not just a civil rights issue, it's a human rights issue and everybody has the human right to be treated with dignity as the police chief said and the duty of care, the idea that the government has you in their custody at that moment, and there is a duty to handle the citizen with the type of human respect any of us would expect is something that was actually in the Memphis Police Department's new procedures from what I understand, that they've changed their procedures to include a more robust duty of care.

Now of course that doesn't mean you're able to change the culture. You may have been able to change the procedures but not the culture and that culture change is what has to be explored, especially as you're talking about the justice and policing act and some of the reform efforts that are really geared toward changing the way people behave in the police department. So this doesn't happen in the first place.

SCIUTTO: Michelle, Justin, listen, we're just beginning to scratch the surface. There's so many issues we have to cover. Please do stay with us. We're going to continue this conversation after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:46:00] SCIUTTO: As we wait for the release of videos that show the violent and ultimately deadly encounter between Memphis police and Tyre Nichols, as well as what led up to it, so many questions, Erica.

HILL: So many questions. And we're joined, by if you weren't with us before the break, they've stayed with us, Memphis mayoral candidate Michelle McKissack and Justin Hansford, he's a Howard University law professor.

It's good to have both of you back with us. So, Michelle, we were talking briefly during the break, your three sons who are grown men now but as we know our kids are always our kids, they were -- would frequent the same skate park that Tyre Nichols did. You were there for a vigil last night and you spoke with RowVaughn Wells, Tyre Nichols's mother, and I know that was a really powerful moment for you especially in terms of the message that she had. What did you two discuss?

MCKISSACK: That's right. It was very emotional. After the vigil, I summoned to her. I wanted to share with her, it's like, Mrs. Wells I'm a mom of four kids. I have three sons, two of whom skated at this very same park that your son skated at. I wanted to let her know I was praying for her and that the community would support her, and as mayor I wanted to have some laws put in place in Tyre's name.

And then at that moment, she grabbed my hand, and she said, Michelle, she's like, I feel like I'm living in a movie. I just don't want his death to be in vain. And we connected on that because I can only imagine what it was like for her. I can't even begin to imagine, my oldest son is almost 25, just a few years younger than Tyre. And just being -- to lose your life over a traffic stop. And so we connected that moment. She said she wanted to stay in touch with me and I said I would do everything that I could just to make this safe for every child, for every young adult, for every person in our community. So it was a powerful moment. I will never forget it.

SCIUTTO: Justin, our Don Lemon asked the police chief a question in effect, does the race of the officers here matter in this case. I want to play her answer and get your thoughts on it. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CERELYN "CJ" DAVIS, MEMPHIS POLICE: It takes off the table that issues and problems in law enforcement is about race. And it is not. It is about human dignity, integrity, accountability, and the duty to protect our community. And as this video will show you, it doesn't matter who is wearing the uniform, that we all have that same responsibility. So it takes race off the table. But it does indicate to me that bias might be a factor also in, you know, in the manner in which we engage the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I wonder, Justin, if you agree with her view there?

HANSFORD: Yes, well, I think that the end of that statement there is telling, we are already knew that oftentimes police officers, when they come into a police department, they're asked to choose to either be black or blue, and once they become blue, bias could still be present. I think many of us are skeptical as to whether if it was not a young black man, if it was a white civilian or other race, would they be treated the same.

But I really wanted to say very briefly that on the question of the mental health of children and others who have to see this footage, Cory Bush has interest the Helping Families Heal Act in Congress which -- it talks about how there are over 50 million additional poor mental health days that black Americans experience every year as a result of police violence. Both from dealing with that in their communities and seeing this footage over and over again.

I know over the next few days, this footage will be shown, if not on live air but on social media and replayed over and over again. And that is going to have a dramatic impact on youth around this country. And we do need to start to think about the mental health of our communities in these situations as well.

HILL: Look, it's an excellent point to take into consideration. How and when that video was shown and how and when people choose to see it as well. But it is an important part of it.

[10:50:07]

You know, Justin, from a legal perspective, what I find interesting is how very candid the police chief was in her interview with Don this morning. Our colleague Sara Sidner also spoke with the district attorney who I'm not sure we have time to -- we don't have time to run the full sound. But one of the things that the D.A. told Sara was, yes, they beat him, they beat him to death. And also noted when he was asked about the police report, he said there is not a perfect overlap between the police report and the events. Having these very candid comments about what they have seen and what they believe happened, does that in any way compromise the case or give anything to the defense moving forward, Justin?

HANSFORD: You know, I think that we've seen -- if you think back to the Derek Chauvin case, when you have this gap between what is reported as what happened and the police reports and what is shown on footage, oftentimes that itself is a telling piece of evidence. So I'm not as concerned about her ability to be clear and transparent in this moment in terms of the case itself. But ultimately it does come back to this question of this how often we take those police reports on face value when we report those incidents in the media and talk about what happened in our daily lives.

SCIUTTO: And sometimes you mentioned the George Floyd case, they were found to be at a minimum misleading, perhaps outright false.

Michelle McKissack, Justin Hansford, thanks so much to both of you, and we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:56:09]

HILL: Today is International Holocaust Remembrance Day which also marks the day that Auschwitz death camp was liberated 78 years ago is an important moment to honor the six million Jews and the millions of other victims killed by the Nazis. Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff is visiting key locations across Poland and Germany this week including Auschwitz.

SCIUTTO: President Biden released a statement saying, in part, quote, "As we join nations around the world in bearing witness to this dark chapter in our shared history, we also honor survivors and their stories. Pledging to always remember and to keep faith with that sacred vow never again.

HILL: And so important too in light of what we have seen in terms of a rise in hate crimes and antisemitic violence that we remember that. And may the memories of those who perished be a blessing.

Thanks to all of you for joining us today. I'm Erica Hill.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. "AT THIS HOUR" with Kate Bolduan starts right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)