Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

The Killing Of Tyre Nichols; Biden: Outraged And Deeply Pained By Nichols Death; Gunman Wounds Two in Jerusalem Attack Today; Medical Experts: Tyre Nichols Probably Died from Internal Injuries; Pence Takes Full Responsibility for Classified Docs at Home; Court Releases Audio, Video of Assault on Paul Pelosi. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired January 28, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:30]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me in Washington, D.C.

I'm Jessica Dean in for Fredricka Whitfield today.

And we begin with a city and a nation in shock just hours after Memphis police released videos of the brutal killing of Tyre Nichols. The full videos released last night show five former Memphis police officers repeatedly beating the 29-year-old.

And I want to warn you, what we're about to show you is extremely graphic. The videos document Nichols being pulled over earlier this month for alleged reckless driving. Police are then seen yanking him from his car, chasing, kicking him, using pepper spray and batons.

Nichols, who is unarmed, crying for his mother at one point. He died from his injuries three days later in the hospital. And those videos are sparking largely peaceful protests all across the country overnight and into today.

Earlier this week the five officers involved were charged with second- degree murder and now after this video has come out, two officers from a different department who were also on scene that night have been put on leave pending an investigation into their conduct.

CNN's Boris Sanchez breaks down the newly-released videos. And again, a warning for you, the video very graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tyre Nichols screamed for his mother as Memphis police officers struck him multiple times, including in the face, while his hands were restrained.

The city on Friday night released body camera and surveillance video of the January 7th traffic stop and beating that led to the 29-year- old's death in the hospital three days later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're going to see a disregard for life.

SANCHEZ: After officers pulled Nichols over and pulled him out of his car, a struggle ensued and he ran away. Minutes later officers would catch up with him and hit him numerous times, video shows.

During the initial encounter after the stop, body cam video from an officer arriving at the scene shows that Nichols sounded calm. As the officer approaches the scene, an officer is yelling at Tyre Nichols --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) car.

SANCHEZ: Officers then pull him out of the car. Nichols responds.

TYRE NICHOLS, VICTIM: I'm on the ground.

SANCHEZ: Officers yell at him to lie down and threatened to tase him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands behind your back.

NICHOLS: You guys are really doing a lot right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lay down.

NICHOLS: I just want to go home.

SANCHEZ: A struggle ensues. Nichols gets up and runs and the officers chase him.

A different body cam video shows some of what happens when officers catch Nichols on a neighborhood street just minutes later. Nichols screaming for his mother as the video shows an officer arriving at the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give me your hands.

SANCHEZ: Officers tell Nichols to give them his hand as a struggle ensues on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to be restrained?

SANCHEZ: Two officers hit and kick Nichols as he is on the ground.

NICHOLS: Mom.

SANCHEZ: Nichols continues calling for his mom. An officer is eventually heard yelling at Nichols.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of you.

SANCHEZ: A remotely operated pole-mounted police surveillance video in the neighborhood gives the clearest view of the blows. This shows officers hitting Nichols at least nine times without visible provocation.

When the camera first turns towards the scene an officer shoves Nichols hard to the pavement with a knee or leg. Nichols is pulled up by his shoulders and then kicked in the face twice.

After being pulled up into a sitting position, Nichols is hit in the back with what appears to be a nightstick. After being pulled to his knees, Nichols is hit again. Once pulled his feet, the video shows officers hitting Nichols in the face multiple times while his hands are restrained behind his body, after which he falls to his knees.

Less than a minute later an officer appears to kick Nichols again. More than three minutes after the encounter is first seen on this camera, officers let go of Tyre Nichols and he rolls on his back.

One minute later Nichols is dragged along the pavement and propped up in a sitting position against the side of a car where he is largely ignored by officers for the next three and a half minutes.

[11:04:52]

SANCHEZ: Some ten minutes into the video a person, who appears to be a paramedic, finally engages with Nichols. The U.S. Department of Justice has said it is conducting a federal civil rights investigation of Tyre Nichols' death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: The release of those videos drawing swift reaction.

CNN's Sara Sidner is in Memphis this morning.

Sara, that is very hard to watch. We know that emotions are running high after people now have seen the videos. It was enough to hear what was likely on them, but to actually see them and have to absorb what happened.

Last night you stood at that exact intersection that we just saw where the beating happened. Describe the feeling for us in Memphis right now.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, it's calm. People had their say last night. We know they are planning to come out and have their say again today, potentially Sunday, potentially Monday.

But what they have done is come out in a way, especially the local Memphians. They have come out in a way that is in conjunction with what the family has asked for.

They have been peaceful while they protest. But they are very, very disturbed by what they've seen. And not just disturbed, but hurt by what they've seen because they know that this could have been prevented. They believe that, you know, in the past if things had been done differently in the past and officers had been held accountable who have been complained about to internal investigations in the past, we would not be here today.

That's what they have been telling us. So they feel like there is more accountability that needs to be, and more reform that needs to be put in place.

I want to let you hear from one of the young ladies that we spoke with last night. This is her hometown and she is part of the activist community as well.

And she was really saying, look, I know a lot of people are praising the police and the police chief, particularly -- not the police, but the police chief -- for swiftly firing these officers and the district attorney for swiftly charging these officers with murder, which is what the family had asked for, but many in the protest community and many of the residents who have come out to decry what has happened in the past say that's just not enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Are you satisfied with what has happened so far?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not. How many more families have to hurt before something legitimate is done? Heads need to roll about this and that starts with the top. That's our city mayor. That's Chief Davis who was hired by the city mayor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: And that was Sharon Bond (ph) who has been out in prior protests. There was just a few years ago a protest on another bridge. The protesters have gone to the I-55 bridge last night. They did so peacefully but they did stop traffic for some time.

And you know, that is a thoroughfare that goes north and south and they decided that that is where they would get the attention that they wanted to let people know that this can't stop here with just the firings and the charges. That there has to be more going forward. So that is what we have heard from the community.

We've also, by the way, we heard that from the family and their attorneys. They believe that this Scorpion Unit that was involved in this, the undercover crime suppression unit, needs to be disbanded right now because several of the members who are indicted now or who have been charged now were a part of that group and they said that they have heard from others who have had real serious problems with the way that they were treated by that unit.

So there is a lot to unfold here. But people have done so peacefully -- just what Tyre Nichols' family has asked for.

DEAN: Absolutely. All right, Sara Sidner in Memphis for us. Thank you so much, Sara. We appreciate it.

And let's get some more insight into all of this. Joining us now is civil rights attorney Areva Martin and CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia police chief Charles Ramsey. Good morning to both of you. Thanks for being with us.

Areva, let's start with you. There are still so many questions left to answer in all of this, including kind of this basic one, which is why Tyre Nichols was stopped in the first place. We know that the Memphis police chief is saying there was no evidence that he was driving recklessly. Why did any of this happen?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, that's the unanswered question, Jessica. It does raise a question about racial profiling and about policies in that police department that go beyond these five officers.

We heard that resident that Sara spoke to saying that there needs to be accountability all the way to the top. And I am in agreement with that.

[11:09:47]

MARTIN: I, too, have praise for the police chief in terms of how swiftly she acted but I also have questions about her leadership because this unit was formed under her direction. And we now know that there have been complaints about the very men who've been charged with murder. There have been complaints about them from other residents in terms of their aggressive behavior.

So it's unlikely that those five men woke up on the day that they killed or the day that they brutalized Tyre Nichols and said this is going to be the day that we cast aside all of the training that we have been taught.

It appeared from that video, from the videos that we were able to see, that they were very comfortable with the brutality and the way in which they treated Mr. Nichols.

It seemed to be something that was very familiar to them. So I think there are lots of questions about what has been going on inside that police department and if there should be others who lose their jobs because of the policies of that particular department.

DEAN: Yes, such a good point. And looking at what the pattern was before all of this.

Chief Ramsey, we see in the videos Nichols acting calmly. The officers pulling him from the car. Then you see the ensuing chase, the beating. It is a very rapid escalation there on the part of the police officers.

You advise police departments around the country as a consultant. It's my understanding police are trained to de-escalate situations, not escalate them. Is that correct?

And to Areva's point, why do you think something like this happened, because it didn't seem like this was the first time something like this had happened, they went right there, escalating the situation.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean it is true that officers are trained in de-escalation. But in this particular case, there was escalation on the part of the officers from the very beginning. I mean they were far too aggressive.

And even if they legitimately thought that this individual engaged in reckless driving or some other traffic violation, there is no excuse for the way in which they behaved.

If anything, Mr. Nichols was the one trying to de-escalate the police officers instead of it being the other way around. So they were acting outside of their training, outside of policy, outside of anything that even makes sense from the very beginning. And it only got worse from that point forward.

And so, you know, that's the problem. If you start off at that high level, where do you think it's going to go, you know? It becomes very difficult to de-escalate when you start at the top and then have to pull back, which is why de-escalation is so important.

You know, you don't start at that level. You can always escalate. That's not a hard thing to do. De-escalation, not so easy.

DEAN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

And Areva, the Memphis police chief called what happened to Nichols inhumane. That was her word. How could words like that be used in the coming criminal trials of these officers?

MARTIN: Yes, I think the police chief herself is going to be a critical witness in their trials because she was their supervisor. And one big question is where was the supervision on the ground?

As we watch those five men and we now know that there may have been up to eight or nine officers at one point involved in this altercation with Mr. Nichols, but we never saw anyone that appeared to take control of the situation.

And I think that's going to be a big question for her. And as she called out the behaviors inhumane, I think the question she is going to have to answer is how is it that they were allowed to be in that position to use those aggressive escalation tactics that the chief just spoke about without anyone there causing them to pull back to restrain themselves and to respect the rights that Mr. Nichols has, as all citizens have.

DEAN: Right. Not one of them stopping the others at all. It's just like that pack mentality.

Chief, after the beating we also see that it takes about 20 minutes before any medical aid is rendered. Is that typical in a case like that? That seems atypical.

RAMSEY: It is atypical. I mean you know, you have a duty for care. Even if you are not an EMS, those officers had a duty to tend to that individual. I have seen videos and I know for a fact it occurs. Officers involved in shootings, for an example, shoot a suspect, you are trained to immediately render aid right away.

The goal is to save a life. Not take a life. And you know, the fact that they failed to do that, the fact that they failed to even intervene when it came to seeing officers that are acting in an inappropriate manner and no one stepped in to do anything, Areva is absolutely right. I mean I look to try to see if there was a sergeant or some supervisor

on the scene now. There may have been. It was dark. I didn't see it. And you know, again, that's critically important, especially when you have units like Scorpion -- which by the way, why would you name a unit Scorpion? I mean that's -- a scorpion is predator with a deadly sting.

And even though the officers acted that way, that's not what you want to call it. But that's a different issue.

[11:14:54]

RAMSEY: You have to have careful screening of individuals that are being chosen to go into these units. That means looking at their history. You know, do they have excessive force complaints and so forth?

The supervisors, you have to pick the best supervisors to go into that unit because your span of control in a unit like that has to be tighter than in a normal patrol function.

And so that way you can avoid problems and avoid issues. You have to have units that are flexible, that can go into areas experiencing upticks in crime.

But you can police constitutionally and reduce crime at the same time. One is not sacrificed for the other. And so you have to have people with the right mental attitude, the right supervision, and take strong action if they operate outside those boundaries.

DEAN: And Areva, the officers are being charged with second-degree murder, kidnapping, other charges. Based on what we have seen in these videos, what do you think about those charges sticking and getting a conviction here?

MARTIN: Oh, I think the charges Jessica, are absolutely correct. Second-degree murder in the state of Tennessee is a knowing killing and clearly those officers were trained and they know that when they kick someone in the head and they kick them repeatedly in the head, they know that the chances of that person dying is great.

So they understood the consequences of their actions but yet they continued to engage in those actions. The kidnapping, again absolutely correct charge. They had no probable cause of what we're hearing to even stop Mr. Nichols in the first instance. And they definitely didn't have any probable cause to continue to detain him.

The aggravated assault, the obstruction of -- well not obstruction of justice, but the failure to follow policy that has been put in place by that police department -- all of those charges -- I think are dead on and I would not be surprised if we didn't start seeing some of these ex-cops starting to give evidence against the others and start turning on each other, trying to cut deals with the prosecutor to lessen the time that they could spend in jail because they are all facing what could basically be life in prison.

DEAN: That is a very interesting point.

All right. Chief Charles Ramsey, Areva Martin -- thank you so much both for your expertise and analysis this morning. We appreciate it.

MARTIN: Thank you.

DEAN: President Biden is speaking out about the horrific videos saying he is outraged and deeply pained by the brutal violence he saw against Tyre Nichols.

CNN White House reporter Jasmine Wright has more for us this morning. Jasmine, walk us through what else the president said about this.

JASMINE WRIGHT, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, Jessica. President Biden reacted very emotionally to the live video, releasing a lengthy statement about 30 minutes after it went up online and the president said he was outraged and he pained.

And I want to read you a line from the statement because it was so strongly worded. The president said, it is yet another painful reminder of the profound fear and trauma, the pain and the exhaustion that black and brown Americans experience every single day.

With a nod there to something that Sara was just talking about, really how folks in that community feel over police and really face excessive policing.

Now White House officials told us over the day, Jessica, that President Biden hadn't seen the video in advance but he was doing other things to really signal to Americans that this was a top of mind issue for him, which included a daytime phone call to Tyre Nichols' family.

Now, a "Washington Post" reporter was in the room while President Biden made that call, so we were able to see a rare glimpse into something that folks tell us all the time, that President Biden when trying to console people who are grieving, uses his own trauma that he's experienced, those loved ones close to him that have died over the last years to really try to connect to Americans' trauma. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your comments today were moving. I don't know how you did it but Rodney, I know as Tyre's dad, this is devastating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

BIDEN: I know people say -- will say that to you but I do know. I lost my son in a war, a consequence of the war in Iraq being there a year. I lost my daughter when a tractor-tailer broadsided and killed my wife and daughter.

And I don't know how you stood there. I didn't have the courage to do what you did. (END VIDEO CLIP)

WRIGHT: So there we heard from the president there in a call that the White House later said was deeply personal.

Now hours later, the president told reporters before leaving for Camp David that really what was at stake here was the image of America and whether or not we actually can uphold law and order.

Now President Biden also joined the Nichols family in calling for peaceful protests which is of course what we largely saw last night, Jessica.

DEAN: Jasmine Wright, White House reporter, thanks so much for that reporting.

Still ahead this morning, Secretary of State Tony Blinken is preparing a trip to Israel after an outbreak of violence-fueled tensions in the region. We're going to go there live, next.

[11:19:51]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Two people were wounded in a shooting attack in Jerusalem earlier today. Police say the gunman was a 13-year-old who was, quote, "neutralized and injured" by passersby. That shooting coming just a day after a gunman killed at least seven people near a synagogue in the city.

CNN's Hadas Gold is in Jerusalem. Hadas, what's the latest?

HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes Jessica. It's been really three days of bloodshed here in this region in Jerusalem and across the West Bank. 17 Israelis and Palestinians have been killed in the last three days. And it's prompting concerns from around the world this could possibly erupt into an even greater conflict.

Let me break down for you exactly what happened. So as you mentioned, this morning there was that shooting just outside the old city of Jerusalem. A 13-year-old apparently shot at two -- shot at a group of people, two men were injured, nobody killed. The 13-year-old himself was shot and injured.

That came just 15 hours after that attack in northeast Jerusalem outside of a synagogue. It was Friday night, Shabbat, likely lots of worshippers there.

[11:24:57]

GOLD: And as they were leaving the synagogue an attacker began shooting at them, seven people have been killed. At least three more injured, including a 15-year-old who was in hospital.

The shooter then got into his car, tried to flee, but then just a few minutes later police encountered him after a brief shootout. He himself, was shot and killed. He was identified as a 21-year-old Palestinian resident of east Jerusalem.

The Israeli police are calling both incidents acts of terror. And the attack on the synagogue is one of the worst attacks that Israelis have experienced in recent memory.

And this is coming -- that came just a day after the deadliest day for Palestinians in the West Bank in over a year if not longer. Ten Palestinians were killed during an Israeli military raid in Jenin and then later clashes.

And it just goes to underscore the tensions and the violence right now in this area. So many concerns this could only potentially get worse after that raid in Jenin that killed nine people and then another Palestinian killed.

The Palestinian Authority canceling the security coordination with the Israelis. This is something the U.S. State Department said they do not necessarily agree with.

And the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is coming here. He is expected to arrive on Monday. This was a preplanned visit. But obviously, there will be a lot on his plate as he meets both Israeli and Palestinian officials, Jessica.

DEAN: No doubt about that. Hadas Gold for us live in Jerusalem tonight. Thanks so much.

The video of the deadly police beating of Tyre Nichols revealed in horrific detail the violent attack he sustained and the agonizing amount of time that passed before he appeared to receive any medical treatment.

Up next, a medical expert's assessment of that incident.

[11:26:39]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: After watching the newly released videos of the violent police encounter with Tyre Nichols, medical experts tell CNN he likely died from internal injuries caused by blunt force trauma. They say that video also shows that it took many crucial minutes for medical help to arrive. At this point we still don't know the specific cause of death.

CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has more on the possible injuries. And again, a warning to you that these images are graphic and disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is just horrific to watch, even as a trauma neurosurgeon myself. I have never seen anything quite like that. You don't -- you often see patients who are brought into the hospital, but you don't see that sort of just horrific beating that he took over those several minutes. When you look at this sort of thing there is obviously so many

different injuries that he could have sustained at the time. I think one of the areas that people probably paid a lot of attention to was just all these blows he took to his head and to his face.

He was restrained at one point, taking fists to the face and he was being kicked in the face when he was on the ground.

What can happen sometimes is that the brain is the one organ in the body that when it's starting to swell, it really has no place to go because it's encased by the skull. Every other organ in the body can swell a little bit more easily.

Brain swelling can start to take place and one can start to lapse in and out of consciousness as seemed to be happening with Mr. Nichols. I watched the videos alongside medical examiners from around the country, and that was the area they really pointed to was these blows to the head.

But it's also worth noting that he is a pretty skinny guy from what we understand, and there were kicks to the body, to the torso, to the chest as well. And any of those organs may have actually sustained damage and started bleeding as well. Could have been suffering from internal bleeding at the time that all of this was happening.

And that brings us to the next point which I think is critically important. When you look at sort of the timeline of what was happening, around 8:33 or so -- 8:34 when you see this last kick that he sustained and then he is handcuffed and dragged over to the car.

And then it's eight minutes later before we see EMS even arrive. But it's not until around 9:02, so 20 minutes after that, 21 minutes after that -- almost half an hour in total before you see a gurney arrive.

So you have a critically ill man who's lying on the sidewalk, sustained all these injuries. Hard to say the extent of the injuries or even how serious they are at that point. Obviously they are serious but what exactly is the most serious is difficult to ascertain.

And it's a full half an hour before he is really assessed. You hear at various times that it's going to take a while for the ambulance to get there and that's, obviously, very problematic.

He needed to be in a hospital, whether or not it would have made a difference ultimately, that's hard to say. And we will get more information, you know, probably over the coming few days as to exactly what caused his death.

We don't have a firm cause of death yet from the county medical examiner. But watching that video, looking at that timeline, you can really get a sense of what happened to him and what happened to him in the days that followed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much for that reporting. Former vice president Mike Pence says he takes full responsibility for

the classified documents ending up at his home. How this might effect the ongoing investigation. That's next.

[11:34:23]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Details just coming in now from Los Angeles where an investigation is underway following an overnight shooting that killed three people and injured four others. The L.A. Fire Department responding to a call for assistance on a residential street northwest of downtown Los Angeles around 2:30 this morning.

When firefighters got there they found three people dead and multiple people with injuries. At this point a motive for that shooting is unknown.

Former vice president Mike Pence now says he is responsible after classified documents were discovered in his Indiana home this week. About a dozen documents marked as classified were found at Pence's home after he directed his lawyer to search his home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's actually been a very humbling week for us. But I know we did the right thing.

Look, the proper handling of classified information is very important to the national interest. Throughout my career in the Congress and as your vice president, we always sought to take great care in the handling of the nation's secrets.

At the close of our administration, we did a thorough review of all of the documents in the possession of the office of the vice president, and in the residence of the vice president. And I'm confident that was conducted in a professional manner.

[11:39:53]

PENCE: But with news in recent weeks of repeated disclosure of classified documents in the personal residence of President Biden and documents dating back to his service as vice president, I simply thought out of an abundance of caution it would be appropriate to review my personal records kept at our residence in the state of Indiana.

And we initiated that process. Along the way we determined that there was a small number of documents marked classified or sensitive interspersed in my personal papers.

Upon making that discovery, we secured those documents immediately. We alerted the National Archives. We turned them over to the FBI and soon thereafter, communicated to Congress.

Now while I was not aware that those classified documents were in our personal residence, let me be clear. Those classified documents should not have been in my personal residence. Mistakes were made. And I take full responsibility.

And I directed my counsel to work with the National Archives, with the Department of Justice, and with the Congress to fully cooperate in any investigation.

Our national security depends on the proper handling of classified and sensitive materials. And I know that when errors are made, it's important that they be resolved swiftly and disclosed.

And my only hope is that, as the American people look at our conduct in this matter, and that they see that we acted above politics and put the national interests first and I pledge to each and every one of you and to the American people that we will continue to do so.

So help me God.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: That discovery comes after Pence repeatedly denied having any classified documents and follows the discovery of classified documents at the homes of both President Biden and former President Donald Trump. The FBI, DOJ and a special counsel are investigating.

And joining me now to discuss this further, Michael Zeldin. He's a former independent counsel who's investigated a president and a former federal prosecutor.

Michael it's great to see you. What do you make of Pence's explanation and his full admission of his responsibility here?

MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, good for him. I think that the investigation has to determine three things. One, was these -- was the removal these documents inadvertent or intentional as he says it was inadvertent. They could verify that.

Two, once they were mishandled and taken to his residence, were they shared with any third party, were they altered or destroyed.

And then finally, once they were discovered, what did he do about returning them? And he said they promptly returned them. And all of that stuff, if verified, is good for Mike Pence and I think it bears comparison to both Biden and to Trump.

Biden seems to have done the same thing, though there was a bit of a delay between notification of the American public of these findings, but not to DOJ and the Archives.

Trump, on the other hand, seems to have resisted notification of anybody and then when the documents were requested appears to have obstructed the request for their return.

DEAN: And do you think it's likely at this point that the attorney general Merrick Garland, appoints a special prosecutor for Pence's case? We have seen him do that, of course, with Trump and Biden. ZELDIN: I don't think one is required. I don't think one was required

for Biden, save for the political optics of it. I think in the case of Mike Pence, this is something that the DOJ can look at by itself and determine whether there was any wrongdoing along that three-part analysis that I just laid out.

And I think that they will determine he didn't do anything that was criminal and that mistakes happen and then what has to happen Jessica, is they have to figure out why all of this stuff is happening.

What's going on with these documents? Why do we have so many paper documents? Why do we have electronic documents that we don't have good -- you know, controls over. That's the bigger issue because I expect that if the chairmen of the Intelligence Committees over the past years went to their files they'd find documents there, too.

DEAN: You know, it's an interesting point you make because we have heard from the chairman and the ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committee this week. We've heard from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, they all want somebody to look at and believe that there should be a new protocol for how these classified documents are handled and you're talking about that as well because clearly, something is going, that these things are leaking out or ending up outside of where they need to be.

What do you think could be done differently and how do they begin to kind of get at that to change that process and protect this information?

[11:44:52]

ZELDIN: Well, first and foremost is we have to look at the classification process. My years in government showed me that there were so many documents that were classified that there was no need for classification.

So the default here in the government is classify if uncertain and that leads to overclassification. They have to figure out why that is the case still and what they can do to mitigate that problem.

And then secondly, they need better chain of custody controls of these things. They need to have a person in charge in each office who is responsible for the chain of custody of classified documents who can certify that as documents are removed, they are returned and as people change office in the end of an administration, that this certified security officer has made himself or herself a thorough investigation and that these documents are all in their safe place.

I think that's a good start point.

DEAN: It's time to try and reform all of this.

I also want to ask you about former President Trump. We know he is hitting the campaign trail today looking to reinvigorate his 2024 presidential campaign. Do you believe he runs any risk of impacting the current special counsel investigation into his documents that were found at Mar-a-Lago if he decides to lash out on the trail or talk extensively about all of this?

ZELDIN: Well, I think we can say it's foregone that he will talk about all of this stuff. He never really has shown an interest in listening to his lawyers who always tell him don't talk about ongoing cases. So he is going to talk about this.

So what he says will determine whether he is putting his foot in his mouth legally or not. I expect that he's going to continue his mantra of he did nothing wrong, he declassified, they belong to him and that he was entitled to them and that the search of his residence was, you know, part of the ongoing witch hunt that he has been subject to all these years.

I think we will hear that. Whether the prosecutors investigating this think that there is some admissions or other things that impact negatively his legal liability remains to be seen.

I think that they will make that determination quite apart from what he says on the campaign trail because I think he's already said everything that needs to be said from his point of view, which is I did nothing wrong, I declassified before thinking about it or otherwise, and they are mine and you can't have them back.

That's his storyline. And I don't think it holds up legally and I expect we will hear a lot of that in South Carolina in the coming months.

DEAN: Yes. Michael Zeldin, thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

ZELDIN: My pleasure.

DEAN: Still to come, disturbing body camera footage of the attack on the husband of former house speaker Nancy Pelosi, including audio of what the suspect intended to do to the former speaker.

[11:47:44]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: The San Francisco superior court has released the video and audio of the October attack on Paul Pelosi, the husband of former house speaker Nancy Pelosi. And we do want to warn you, this video is disturbing.

CNN's Veronica Miracle has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the hammer.

DAVID DEPAPE, PAUL PELOSI'S ASSAILANT: Um, nope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey, hey. What is going on?

Whoa. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Body camera video shows police struggling with Paul Pelosi's assailant after witnessing the assault.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give me your hand. Give me your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hand.

MIRACLE: Police responding to the Pelosi home around 2:30 a.m. on October 28th after to Paul Pelosi called 911 reporting an attacker had broken into their San Francisco home.

PAUL PELOSI, HUSBAND OF NANCY PELOSI: There's a gentleman here just waiting for my wife to come back, Nancy Pelosi. He's just waiting for her to come back, but she's not going to be here for a day so I guess we'll have to wait.

MIRACLE: The 82-year-old husband of then house speaker, Nancy Pelosi appears to try to signal the 911 dispatcher that he needs help without upsetting the intruder.

P. PELOSI: Is the Capitol police around?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. This is San Francisco.

P. PELOSI: They're usually -- they're usually here at the house protecting my wife.

He is telling me to put the phone down and do what he says.

MIRACLE: Then before he hangs up the phone, the intruder interrupts.

DEPAPE: I'm a friend of theirs.

MIRACLE: The intruder David DePape has been charged with assault and attempted homicide among other charges and has pleaded not guilty on all counts.

After his arrest, DePape told police he was out to get then house speaker Nancy Pelosi and, quote, other targets and repeated baseless conspiracy theories about Pelosi and Democrats spying on the Trump campaign.

DEPAPE: This is just like an endless (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Like the whole (EXPLETIVE DELETED) four years until they were finally able to steal the election.

MIRACLE: Reporter: he said he woke Paul Pelosi and was looking for his wife.

DEPAPE: Well, I was basically going to hold her hostage and I was going to talk to her and basically tell her what I would do.

If she told the truth, I would let her go scot-free. If she (EXPLETIVE DELETED) lied I was going to break her kneecaps. MIRACLE: DePape had previously posted conspiracy theories about the

January 6 attack at the U.S. Capitol on his Facebook account. He told police --

DEPAPE: When I left my house, I left to go fight tyranny. I did not leave to go surrender.

MIRACLE: Nancy Pelosi spoke with CNN's Chris Wallace about the attack one week ago.

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST: How is your husband, Paul, doing?

NANCY PELOSI, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: He's doing ok. It's going to take a little while for him to be back to normal.

I feel very sad about it because the person was searching for me. And my dear husband, who is not even that political, actually paid the price.

[11:54:48]

MIRACLE: Paul Pelosi underwent surgery after the attack for a skull fracture and serious injuries to his right arm and hands. And he has been seen wearing a hat at events with his wife in recent months. She said she would not watch the video showing the attack.

N. PELOSI: And I have absolutely no intention of seeing the deadly assault on my husband's life.

MIRACLE: The audio and video was made public because a group of news organizations including CNN pushed for its release citing transparency reasons.

DePape's lawyers did not want that to happen. In fact, they argued against it saying it would irreparably damage his right to a fair trial. The court sided with the news organizations allowing for its release.

Veronica Miracle, CNN -- San Francisco.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: Veronica, thanks so much.

There is renewed scrutiny of the Memphis police department's Scorpion unit, that specialized group that some of the officers charged with the death of Tyre Nichols belong to. And it's not the first time the group has come under fire for its tactics.

What exactly is the Scorpion Unit. We'll explain ahead.

[11:55:51]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)