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Memphis Police Department Permanently Deactivates Scorpion Unit After Videos Of The Deadly Beating Of Tyre Nichols; Interview With Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN); Tyre Nichols' Death Raises Complex Questions On Race And Policing; Trump Makes Presidential Campaign Stop In New Hampshire And South Carolina; Court Releases Audio, Video, Bodycam Of Assault On Paul Pelosi; Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT). Aired 7-8p ET

Aired January 28, 2023 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:01:14]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. The top stories for you on this Saturday night.

Protesters rally across the nation one day after the city of Memphis releases the horrific video showing the violent arrest of Tyre Nichols.

Plus new strikes in Ukraine. The country claims Russia is pounding a key town near Donetsk with nearly 300 rocket and artillery strikes.

And President Trump meeting with voters in key states -- two key states as he jumpstarts his third push towards the White House.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And we begin tonight in Memphis, where the fallout from the killing of Tyre Nichols is leading to a major move by the police department there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIARA HILL, VISITOR TO MAKESHIFT MEMORIAL: Tyre Nichols did not deserve this at all whatsoever. Moving forward, I just don't know what can help this city.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Today peaceful protests have been unfolding in Memphis and other American cities outraged by the killing of Tyre Nichols by five police officers now charged with second-degree murder. And we really want to warn you. The police video you are about to see is graphic and deeply troubling. Three weeks ago Nichols led officers on a foot chase after a traffic stop. A surveillance camera captures officers striking him, punching him and kicking him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey. TYRE NICHOLS, VICTIM: Mom!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch out. Watch out.

NICHOLS: Mom!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Nichols screams for his mother who was just at home just blocks away. Officers continue to hit Nichols and use pepper spray as you see. Nichols eventually slumps over unconscious, but for 21 minutes no one on the scene appears to render the aid that might have saved his life. We'll never know.

Last hour I spoke with Benjamin Crump, attorney for the family of Tyre Nichols. He predicts more people will be held accountable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TYRE NICHOLS' FAMILY: I think there's going to be more fallout. Whether that's going to lead to charges, criminal charges, we have to see. But we do think there were some other officers there that should have been charged, not just these five, because they definitely should have been charged, but we think the other officers there -- how heartbreaking was it when he was handcuffed there on the ground moaning and everybody was walking around so nonchalantly as if this is just business as usual.

That's why we said the Scorpion Unit had to go because I believe the citizens, this was business as usual, how they trampled on the constitutional rights of these citizens in this community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN's Shimon Prokupecz joins us now from Memphis.

I know, Shimon, you have been asking for days questions about the Scorpion Unit. You have been told by sources that perhaps these officers were in the unit. They were. A short time ago we learned that unit that these officers belonged to, it has been deactivated. What more can you tell us?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And certainly this is a significant move here by the police chief in Memphis to do this. And this was something that community members wanted. And of course, Ben Crump and the family of Tyre Nichols wanted it. And today the police chief granting them their request, their wishes.

Let me read to you what the police chief said in her decision to do this. She says that in the process of listening intently to the family of Tyre Nichols, community leaders and the uninvolved officers who have done quality work in their assignments, it is in the best interest of all to permanently deactivate the Scorpion Unit. The officers currently assigned to the unit agree unreservedly with the next step. Now, some people in this community will probably take issue with her

saying that some there are doing quality work or that the unit as a whole has been doing quality work.

[19:05:06]

People here in the community have been complaining about the work that this unit has been doing. You know, you heard Ben Crump in your interview with him tell you that they have heard from people in this community who have raised issues. So look, at least for now, the police chief granting the wishes of the community, of these family members in disbanding this unit.

Now the Scorpion Unit was created to basically target violent areas of Memphis. And what it stands for is the Street Crimes Operation to Restore Peace in Our Neighborhoods. And the mayor and the police chief here launching it in November of 2021 and mostly intended to focus on homicides and robberies. They drive around in unmarked cars. And as we saw in the video, very aggressively what they did to Tyre Nichols, pulling him out of the car, throwing him to the ground.

And Ben Crump, of course, talking a about the culture of this unit. And that very much is in focus now as all of these investigations continue -- Pam.

BROWN: Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much.

Well, mostly peaceful protest marches are playing out across the country for a second day. I want to check in with Polo Sandoval in New York.

You've been tracking everything, Polo, and keeping the pleas made by Nichols' mother. People have refrained from the kind of response we saw after the George Floyd video was released. What have you been hearing?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And based on what we're hearing from police departments throughout the country, a majority of these demonstrations that we've seen from coast to coast, we're talking Boston, at Atlanta, Los Angeles, they have remained relatively peaceful except for perhaps a few isolated incidents that have taken place.

But really what those 21 minutes of inaction that you just mentioned, Pamela, that's certainly fueling that outrage for so many people. And they're echoing Benjamin Crump's call to basically expand the scope of charges beyond those five officers. And that is why tonight we are preparing to see yet another wave of these demonstrations in cities throughout the United States, one happening as we speak here in New York City, in Washington Square Park where a group of individuals are peacefully assembling with a long line of speakers.

Our affiliate at WCBS had an opportunity to speak to one of the leaders of that event that's taking place right now, just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISAIAH FENICHAL, NEW YORK CITY ACTIVIST: So we are here to fight and call for justice once again and continuously because the work did not stop in 2020, it didn't stop in 2021 and it did not stop in 2022. We are still here and we are still fighting until justice is done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: you know, having covered this former or similar situations before, it is a very similar message to what we've heard from demonstrators in the past. But we're also hearing that something is certainly different, that swift response that we saw from officials in Memphis when it comes to the charges, that this is certainly something that many demonstrators are accepting and also police departments from around the country joining in that outrage, not just because of the actions of the officers but of course the inaction as well.

BROWN: Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

And joining us now is Tennessee Congressman Steve Cohen, whose district includes much of Memphis.

Congressman, good to see you. You're the fourth generation of your family to call Memphis home. How is your city doing today?

REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): I think the city is doing pretty well. It's been an unnerving experience to see one of our fellow citizens who was such a nice, innocent, free spirited young man murdered by the Memphis Police Department.

My first job out of law school was working as a civilian attorney for the Memphis Police Department nearly 50 years ago. And I taught officers in the academy, I worked on cases that were disciplinary actions. And so I know the police department. At least I knew it 50 years ago. It's much better than it was. It still needs a lot more work.

We've got a new U.S. attorney. We've got a new district attorney general and a new chief of police. And they've done an excellent job of getting on this early and showing that the city and the federal government with its location here in West Tennessee want to bring about justice. And the federal government wants to help and will help. I know that. But it's unnerving and it's terribly sad.

BROWN: Certainly. And just picking up on what you mentioned there, you used to be an adviser, a legal adviser for the department. I'm curious if you were still advising the department, what would you suggest? Do you think the other officers who were on that scene should also be let go and possibly charged? What do you think?

COHEN: I'm not sure if they should be let go or not, but I know they should have an administrative hearing and possibly be reprimanded in some manner. There were at least four other officers on the scene that stood around and did nothing. The duty to render aid is a major part of a police officer's job to protect and serve. And those officers did not do that. [19:10:03]

There were probably other officers involved. There was an officer back at the scene who was, I think, a sixth member of the Scorpion Unit who didn't go to the scene. He was the person who drove up in the first video that had his body camera -- camcorder working. And he said, I hope they stomp him. I'm afraid what he said was indicative of the attitude of the Scorpion Unit and maybe police in general, but more likely the Scorpion Unit specifically to take their aggressions out and take the law into their own hands. And this is always wrong.

So I think -- I don't know how they've been trained. I'm sure they've been trained well, but I don't know if this group particularly learned their lesson and they acted on basically blue testosterone and ego. But it started with that. When they grabbed him out of the car, it wasn't, excuse me -- excuse me, but show us your driver's license. And why did you run that light or why did you run out of the lane or whatever?

We saw them all giving what probably were George Santos type descriptions of what occurred earlier when they were saying we did out of traffic, he was in the wrong lane, he reached for my gun. These were alibis that they were posting knowing they were videoing and they were laying out their defense. And I couldn't trust any one of them because they didn't take their oath of office to heart and they just beat him to hell.

And there were three of them, two of them, one kicked him, one punched him and one hit him with a stick, a baton, and the other two helped. All five are rotten apples. And I commend the police chief for doing what she did. But she and Mayor Strickland, both of whom, want to do right. They had the toughest job of coming forward. They need to clean the department of bad apples. They need to get intensive training. They need to make sure de-escalation comes first.

I've had a bill for about eight years in the Congress that George Floyd saying that we need to have training of officers in other ethnic differences and to look at de-escalating intense situations. The Memphis Police Department trains, but they need to make it more of a regular part of the curriculum that is undertaken and observed, and protocol taken out by the officers to deescalate. There was no effort to deescalate.

BROWN: No, not at all. How do you change the culture? I mean, as you said, you were an adviser there 30 years ago. You said it's better now than it was. I can't imagine how it was back then if you were saying it's better now. What can actually be done to change policing and the culture?

COHEN: Well, one thing is you can get more money. The federal government has monies available starting this next spring with grants the Memphis Police Department should apply for to hire officers in high population areas. We need to have more money to pay officers so we can get a better grade of officer. And we had some differences with the police association over compensation, over health benefits, over retirement benefits. And a lot of police officers left Memphis and went to higher paying

jobs in Dallas and other cities that could afford to pay more. We need to be able to pay more and compete with other cities to get the best and brightest. I don't know if these five guys, they certainly were hired more recently when the benefits were the least. So we may not be getting the cream of the crop. Obviously they were not the cream of the crop. That's one.

And then secondly, you just have to have more intensive training and you have to have better supervision. Your commanders have to stress this. I'd like to see a return of the old community oriented policing where the neighborhoods know the policemen. The police people, women and men, are in the communities making friends, helping people and getting tips. And we don't do enough of that. Rather, we have Scorpion Units out to pounce on people.

I mean, they pounced on him when he got out of the car. Throwing him. They were so nervous, you wonder if they were hyped up on something. They were out of control and not very professional at all. But we need to have officers the neighborhood knows, and who know the neighborhood. And I think that's a more effective manner of policing.

BROWN: Really interesting to hear your thoughts, Congressman Steve Cohen. Thank you so much for sharing some of your time with us about your city Memphis.

COHEN: Memphis is a great city.

BROWN: Thank you.

Now that it has shut down the Scorpion Unit, will the killing of Tyre Nichols have a bigger impact on policing in America? I'm going to talk about that with my next guest, and carry on the conversation we just had with the congressman there.

And still ahead, a police body camera shows the chaotic moments when a stranger broke into the California home of then House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and assaults her husband.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:18:56]

BROWN: Beyond the brutality we saw on these Memphis videos showing the attack on Tyre Nichols, there are so many lingering questions. How could something like this happen after the George Floyd murder? How could black police officers exact such deadly punishment on a black suspect?

Joining us now with more is Marq Claxton, director of the Black Law Enforcement Alliance.

Marq, you are also a retired NYPD detective. The Memphis PD has now deactivated that Scorpion Unit that these suspects were a part of. What do you think about that? And do you think these kinds of specialty teams increases the danger of police overreaction? MARQ CLAXTON, DIRECTOR, BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE: I think the

deactivation of the Scorpion Unit is a good move. It's a necessary move. It really is a no-brainer when you actually consider, you know, what we're dealing with right now. As far as these plain clothes units that exist in many agencies across the nation, I'm sure they will continue. There seems to be a continued desire by police agencies to have these specialized units theoretically addressing issues of violent crime in communities across the nation.

[19:20:08]

And just as much as they desire to have these units, there are many problems that communities of color in particular face with these particular units who operate oftentimes under the cover of darkness in plain clothes and with less and less supervision. So when you balance out whether or not they are effective with the possible infractions of breaking of law, there are some serious questions that people should have about these units.

BROWN: You say this is less about color and more about a toxic police culture. Tell us more about that.

CLAXTON: The toxic police culture subsumes all other cultures. So you talk about these individual black police officers. Well, toxic police culture, their own culture, their own life lived experiences are subsumed by the larger police culture, and they tend to want to live up to what the police agency that they're involved with has set as the standard and what will make them acceptable, and what they can get away with, and what is allowed time and time again for them.

So this is -- it's always relevant to talk about race as it relates to law enforcement, the enforcement of laws in communities across the nation. It's always relevant to have the discussion. Race plays a major part in policing, and there's no doubt about that. But what we have seen with this beating is the manifestation of toxic police culture and a mob mentality.

And I have to agree with Atticus Finch in "To Kill a Mockingbird," a mob is a place where people go to take a break from their conscience. And that's what we witnessed on video.

BROWN: The criminal case against these officers has moved very quickly compared to similar police brutality cases against white officers. What do you make of that?

CLAXTON: The tone, the tenor and the tempo in this particular case was really set early on by Chief Davis, who up to this point has done a tremendous job. She is a well-respected law enforcement professional, and she is a highly respected black law enforcement professional. She was past president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, the premier public service organization for black professionals in this nation.

And she really set the tone by taking relatively quick action. Now it's not quick action when you're talking about in civilian life. Normally a person would be arrested much quicker. But when you're talking about law enforcement community and policing, this is a relatively quick set of circumstances and she, by her actions, has really set the tempo that the prosecutors appear to be following right now.

BROWN: Do you think this is turning the tide on how these investigations are handled? Because previously it would take months and months and there would not be transparency from the police. Often police would use the investigation as cover to stay silent, to cover themselves. This is certainly a change. Do you think that that will be the pattern moving forward?

CLAXTON: Frankly no. Toxic police culture is very resilient and stubborn. And we've had instances of periodic accountability, if you will, increased accountability. But for long-term fixes and change, you really have to deal with and address the issues of that toxic police culture. And these singular incidents, absent the corrective legislation, absent, shifting the entire enforcement model away from traditional policing into public safety where you incorporate the different disciplines, you have social work, you have issues, you address the issues of poverty in communities.

Absent those changes, it will be business as usual, unfortunately, as we move forward. Once the emotion dies down and the outrage dies down in this particular case, unfortunately toxic police culture will dominate the scene.

BROWN: In a lot of these cases these are low threat situations or potentially no threat. I mean, there's still a lot of questions about whether the traffic stop for Tyre Nichols was even justified. How do you think the procedure should change for those low threat situations that often escalate because police are using excessive force and in some cases that results in the death of the person as we have seen.

CLAXTON: There are many places throughout the nation that are now restricting their police officers from even making car stops and making these innocuous stops and interactions, and realize in that the police don't have to be involved in every aspect of society.

[19:25:05]

And these relatively innocuous sort of interactions tend to have these kind of fatal encounters all too often. So there's some jurisdictions that are saying now their police officers will not be stopping you for equipment violations on the vehicle because you just increased the risk that something will turn drastically wrong. But most importantly, we have to begin and insist that we shift away from the run, catch, lock them up, throw away the key type of mentality that is traditional policing, and move towards that comprehensive public safety model.

That will have the most significant impact. And that should be supported by creative, progressive legislation and a revamp of the training strategies and clear well-defined national standards for law enforcement.

BROWN: Marq Claxton, really interesting to hear your insight and perspective on this. Thank you for your time tonight. And still ahead on this Saturday, Donald Trump back on the campaign

trail and saying he is angry and ready to run for the White House again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They said he's not doing rallies. He's not campaigning. Maybe he's lost that step. I'm more angry now and I'm more committed now than I ever was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:30:32]

BROWN: Former President Donald Trump is back on the campaign trail tonight for the first time since announcing his third run for the White House.

He held events in a couple of key early voting States and shared some sharp comments about two of his potential GOP rivals.

CNN's Gabby Orr is in Columbia, South Carolina for us. So what did he say -- Gabby.

GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: Well, Pam, a big day for Donald Trump as he made his return to the campaign trail after a two-and-a-half month hiatus doing traditional campaign events that felt very different from his previous two presidential campaigns, including stopping at a burger joint here in South Carolina just moments ago.

Now, the former President did have moments throughout the campaign trail visits today that did feel like vintage Donald Trump, one of those took place on his campaign plane earlier today when he talked to reporters and took a shot at Ron DeSantis, the Governor of Florida and potentially his chief rival in a Republican presidential primary, but also said that he is encouraged at least one of his possible challengers, former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley to run if that's what she wants to do. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So Ron would have not been Governor if it wasn't for me. So, then when I hear he might run, you know, I consider that very disloyal.

I talked to her for a little while, but I said look, you know, go by your heart if you want to run. She has publicly said that, "I would never run against my President. He was a great President."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ORR: So the former President saying that he is actively encouraging potential rivals to jump in, though he is of course the only Republican presidential candidate in the GOP primary field at the moment.

Today was all about trying to instill confidence in Republican allies who have been wondering if the former President's heart is really in this third campaign of his.

He said that he has never been more angry, never been more committed to retaking the White House and in his speech in South Carolina, he also tried to show support by rolling out endorsements from key Republican allies -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Gabby Orr, thanks so much.

The San Francisco Superior Court has released the video and audio of that October attack on Paul Pelosi, the husband of then House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. The disturbing footage includes police bodycam video revealing the moment the suspects hit the 82-year-old with a hammer and they also released a phone call that Paul Pelosi made to 9-1-1.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: This is San Francisco police. Do you need help?

PAUL PELOSI, NANCY PELOSI'S HUSBAND: Oh, well, there is a gentleman here just waiting for my wife to come back, Nancy Pelosi. He is just waiting for her to come back, but she is not going to be here for days, so I guess we will have to wait.

911 OPERATOR: Okay, do you need police, fire or medical for anything?

PELOSI: I don't think so. I don't think so.

There is the -- is the Capitol Police around?

911 OPERATOR: No, this is San Francisco.

PELOSI: They are usually here. They are usually here at the house protecting my wife.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROWN: Paul Pelosi calmly dropping hints there for that 9-1-1 operator who didn't pick up on it at first and then seemingly did later on in that conversation.

What more can you tell us -- Camila.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Pam. So thanks to the police body cameras who were essentially able to go inside the Pelosi house right here behind me and that video showing exactly as you mentioned the moment when that hammer hits Nancy Pelosi's husband's head.

I mean that is the part that is extremely difficult to watch, even Nancy Pelosi saying that she is not going to watch that. I want to get right to that video, but also warn you that it is graphic. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's going on man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything's good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the hammer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey, hey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is going on right there?

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATIONS.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:35:09]

BERNAL: Now, we had read a lot of these details in documents, but it is one thing to read about it, it is another thing to watch it and to hear it.

We have a lot of new video and audio. We have video of David DePape trying to get into the house. We know that after he broke into the house, Paul Pelosi tried to make that 9-1-1 call, it was sort of balancing this conversation with the dispatch trying to tell her that someone that he didn't know was in his house, while also being careful because David DePape was listening in in that 9-1-1 call, and even part of the conversation in the call after that 9-1-1 call, police officers come to the house here behind me and then they witnessed the attack, again, thanks to that bodycam video.

After the attack though, they are able to interview David DePape and that is when he admits and confesses to hitting Paul Pelosi and then of course, he is able to tell officials what happened there, saying that he wanted to hold Nancy Pelosi hostage, a lot of those disturbing details we are now able to hear and to see them -- Pam.

BROWN: Camila Bernal, thank you.

Still ahead for you on this Saturday, the plan is to send more than 300 tanks for Ukraine just as North Korea weighs in on the latest move by the West. Plus, growing tensions in Israel and the Palestinian territories, a 13-year-old is accused of shooting two men in Jerusalem just one day after an attack on a synagogue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:40:39]

BROWN: The President of Ukraine is adding to his wish list, now asking for long-range missile systems. That is in addition to the heavy tanks already promised to his country in its fight against Russia.

So far, the US has been reluctant to agree to all of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's request, but that could change.

CNN's Sam Kiley is in Kyiv.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pam, all of the Ukrainian focus in terms of the publicity that they are trying to draw to what the Russians are doing in this war is currently being focused on the town of Vuhledar. This is a few miles south of the City of Donetsk, itself captured by Russian-backed forces back in 2014.

It is not very far from the frontline there, and it has been pounded, they say with more than 300 artillery and other aerial attacks on that town, on their forces based in that town. They believe, partly perhaps as a campaign to draw their forces away from the other focus of Russian violence, which has been the City of Bakhmut, and also part of that ongoing campaign to try to capture what remains in Ukrainian hands of the rest of Donetsk Province.

So this will come in at a time when the Ukrainian Ambassador to France says that, in his estimation, there's now some 300-plus tanks that have been promised by NATO and other Western allies to the Ukrainian war effort.

Now, some of these may arrive in a matter of weeks. Many of them, though, will be months away, and it is not yet clear whether they are going to be able to come and bring them in quickly enough to make a significant difference, either to Ukrainian potential plans to conduct a counteroffensive, to try to retake territory captured by Russians in the last 11 months, or indeed to defend against what is expected to be a new Russian offensive in the spring -- Pam.

BROWN: Sam Kiley in Ukraine, thanks so much.

Well, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is vowing a "strong, fast and accurate response" after two shootings left seven people dead and five others wounded in Jerusalem. Both attacks took place in your places of worship; one at a synagogue, the other at a mosque.

The suspect in the second attack is a 13-year-old boy. A local community leader says he was neighbors with the 16-year-old who was shot and killed by Israeli Police earlier this week.

And still ahead for you on this Saturday, my conversation with the US Surgeon General and Senator Chris Murphy together, why they are worried about the erosion of community in our country and how they believe it is fueling loneliness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): We have lost something as a society as so much of our life has turned into screen to screen communication.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:47:52] BROWN: Followers just aren't the same as family. It is something we all know, but it is easy to forget with all the time we spend online. And as we spend more time on screens and less in our communities, the cost is becoming more apparent.

I sat down with Senator Chris Murphy and Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy, to address how this loss of connection is something that may be fueling the in America.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you say that the erosion of community is contributing to loneliness? Tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that?

MURPHY: Well, I think what Dr. Murthy is talking about is this question of where your value comes from, right? In the end, that's what every human being is looking for, right, value, meaning.

And I think in this country, maybe more so than anywhere else and in today's moment, more than any other time in history, we are telling kids, especially that your value comes from your personal achievement, right? Your individual success or lack of success.

I think that's not really consistent with our history, sometimes your value. Often your value comes through your communal success, right, how you do as part of a group, the success of your community, of your sports team, of the social club you're joined to.

And so I think part of addressing loneliness, but part of also attacking this question of meaning and value is to build healthier communities, healthier organizations, right, to allow people to join things and see their success through the prism of the success of a group.

Youth sports participation is down. Churches are vanishing. Local social halls are closing -- all of those places where we would join something, and we could see our success in that group's success. Those opportunities are drying up as more and more of our kids and adults spend their social time on a computer on a screen.

I think that that's the conversation here: How do you sort of rebuild communities, community groups, and rebuild people's sense of value in those collectives?

DR. VIVEK H. MURTHY SURGEON GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: I mean, you look at the data, it tells us that according to some studies including one from 2021 that over 50 percent of people, of adults in America are struggling with loneliness, but it also has important implications for our mental health, increasing our risk of depression, anxiety, and our physical health because loneliness increases the risk of heart disease, dementia, sudden death, as well as a host of other physical health conditions.

[19:50:23]

BROWN: You have said loneliness, you've described it as a biological signal. For our viewers, what should they look out for? And why do you describe it that way?

MURTHY: Loneliness is like hunger or thirst. It is a signal or body sends us, a natural signal when we are lacking something that we need for our survival, and that is exactly human connection. It is something we need for our survival.

Many people have felt lonely, and many may not feel comfortable admitting it, but almost all of us have had that experience and some people may manifest it as sadness or withdrawal. In others, it may manifest is irritability or anxiety. It shows up in different ways. Many of us often know when something is off.

What I would recommend people do is a couple of things. One is to remember that small doses of human connection can make a big difference. Even spending two minutes, three minutes on the phone with someone you love, just to say I'm thinking about you, I want to know how you're doing makes a difference, picking up the phone, when somebody calls, even if you don't have time to talk to them, even for 10 seconds to say, you know what, I don't have time right now, but I'll call you back.

BROWN: I feel horrible about that.

MURTHY: Hearing their voice alone --

BROWN: That's good advice.

MURTHY: But it turns out, it makes a huge difference in how you feel, and one last thing which is often underappreciated is the power of service. It turns out when we help other people, that helps strengthen our sense of connection, not only to them, but our connection to ourselves.

You know, as Senator Murphy was mentioning, when we lose our sense of self-worth, when we don't think we have value, that is when we start becoming disconnected from who we really are.

But when we serve other people, we remind ourselves that we have value to bring to the world. So that is why kindness and generosity and service and love are really the bedrock upon which we have to rebuild connection in our lives and in society.

MURPHY: Just to build on one point, I often get into an argument with my staff, because they want to do everything, you know, via text, right, and I say, just pick up the phone and give the other person that you're talking to a call.

I think what we've learned is that online connection and text connection is not the same as in person connection, or voice to voice connection. We have lost something, as a society, as so much of our life has turned into screen to screen communication.

It just doesn't give you the same sense of value and the same sense of satisfaction as talking to somebody or seeing someone.

And so I think that is just a really important reminder is that you've got to make sure to the extent you can that you build into your day, time to spend in person, preferably even on the phone with people that you work with, with people in your family.

I just think we're learning that it's not a coincidence that we are a lonelier society, the more and more of our time that we're spending online or looking at screens.

BROWN: Right. I mean, the pandemic taught us a lot of that. And yet now, so many of us are working from home and, you know, so we don't even unfortunately, have time to get into all the fallout from the pandemic.

But I appreciate both of you for sharing this time and for being so open and honest in a way that we don't often hear from public officials. So thank you both.

MURPHY: Thank you.

MURTHY: Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Noticing signs of withdrawal in our peers could be the catalyst for healing? Our conversation with Senator Murphy and Dr. Murthy continues as we dive into social media's ironic part in the loneliness epidemic and how it is impacting kids in particular.

We're going to have more next hour.

Still ahead tonight, what the growth of urgent care centers and dollar stores may tell us about the true state of the US economy.

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We will be back.

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[19:58:09]

BROWN: Concerns about inflation are easing and our country may avoid a recession, but that doesn't mean much for Americans who have trouble making ends meet every day.

And companies, they are aware of that distress and finding ways to adapt to it. CNN Business reporter, Nathaniel Meyersohn joins us.

So, Nathaniel, one trend we're seeing in the economy right now is the growth of Urgent Care Centers. What's behind that?

NATHANIEL MEYERSOHN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Right, Pam. So there are more than 11,000 Urgent Care Centers around the country, they've been popping up everywhere, and that's because it's much easier to get an appointment at an Urgent Care Center than it is that your primary care doctor and some folks don't have primary care doctors and hospitals and health insurers are building out Urgent Care Centers to try to prevent people from going to the emergency room, which is super costly. Plus, you have all of the demand for COVID-19 tests and treatment.

So the Urgent Care Association says that patient volume at these Urgent Care sites was up 60 percent from pre-pandemic levels.

BROWN: And another business surging around the country is Dollar Stores. What have you learned about that?

MEYERSOHN: So there are 35,000 Dollar Stores around the country. To give you a sense of that number, that is more than the number of McDonald's and Starbucks around the country. And then you have some new research from Tufts University in the last couple of weeks that shows that Dollar Stores are the fastest growing food retailers in the country, and there are some serious implications of that because Dollar Stores don't really sell much healthy food, not much produce or fresh meat, so more cities are restricting their growth.

Cleveland, Birmingham, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, they've all passed legislation to try to curb the number of Dollar Stores.

BROWN: And meanwhile, we are seeing some big name brands starting to sell secondhand clothing and furniture. What is that all about?

MEYERSOHN: Secondhand clothing and furniture is hot right now, Pam. Some of the leading brands are jumping into it. J. Crew, Nordstrom, IKEA, Lululemon, they are all offering ways for customers to buy and sell secondhand goods, and it is being driven by millennials looking for lower prices and they are trying to be more ecofriendly.

BROWN: Hey, I think that's great. Big fan of secondhand goods right here. I was just at a consignment store today.

Nathaniel Meyersohn, thanks so much.

Well, the next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

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