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Memphis Police Disband Scorpion Unit; Renewed Calls for Police Reform; Biden and McCarthy Meet Wednesday. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired January 30, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:45]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Monday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Erica Hill.

This morning, lawmakers back on Capitol Hill facing growing pressure after the deadly beating of Tyre Nichols by Memphis police ignites renewed calls for federal police reform. Nichols' family attorney, Benjamin Crump, telling CNN Tyre's tragic death should force Congress to act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TYRE NICHOLS' FAMILY: Shame on us if we don't use his tragic death to finally get the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act passed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So, will things change this time around? The Congressional Black Caucus is calling for a meeting with President Biden this week to push for negotiations on police reform.

SCIUTTO: Yes, remember there was a push, bipartisan push, in the wake of George Floyd. It didn't make it through. Remember, just two years ago, following that death, those negotiations broke down in the Senate. Congress failed to pass those federal reforms. Now the president of Tennessee's NAACP chapter is pleading with Congress to try again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLORIA JEAN SWEET-LOVE, PRESIDENT, TENNESSEE STATE CONFERENCE NAACP: We come to call to action for Congress. By failing to craft and pass bills to stop police brutality, the blood of black America is on your hands. So, stand up and do something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Also, over the weekend, the Memphis Police Department deactivated the so-called Scorpion Unit. That is the task force at the center of Nichols' death.

HILL: And that's where we begin this hour. CNN's senior crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz joining us.

So, in terms of that decision, what more do we know about that decision and, frankly, about this unit, Shimon?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, this unit was created to fight crime essentially, right? It was -- their main thing was to prevent crime from occurring, from going into these neighborhoods in Memphis, which have saw a spike in crime. And that was their goal, attack where this crime was occurring.

And so it was a plain clothes, for the most part, unit. They drove around in unmarked cars. The Scorpion Unit is what -- the name that was given to them by the police department. And their focus, as you see there on our screen, was about robberies and homicides. And so, over the weekend, after calls from community leaders and Tyre Nichols' family to disband this unit, the police chief went ahead and announce that on Saturday.

And so now it is no longer. They have to figure out, you know, what other measures they can take now there at the police department to help fight some of the crime because Memphis is one of these neighborhoods, one of these areas in this country where there is this huge spike of crime targeting, you know, every day lives of people, car theft and burglaries.

So, this is something that the Memphis Police Department is certainly going to have to deal with. And also, you know, it's likely that the Department of Justice at some point, based on some of the complaints we're hearing from community members about this unit, that they're going to have to come in and take a look at what the Memphis Police Department has been doing and what's called a pattern and practice kind of look at what this police department and this unit specifically was doing.

So, that could happen here, guys.

HILL: Shimon Prokupecz, appreciate it. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Tyre Nichols' parents are expected to be at the State of the Union Address next week, invited by the Congressional Black Caucus. This comes as the caucus tries to jump start, really restart, negotiations on federal police reform.

HILL: CNN's senior White House correspondent MJ Lee joins us now.

So, MJ, the Congressional Black Caucus has requested this meeting with President Biden. The road to police reform, though, likely a bit more challenging given the current landscape in Washington.

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, Erica and Jim, Tyre Nichols' death and the videos showing the moments leading up to that death have obviously caused outrage around the country. And here in Washington, what that has meant is renewed calls for police reform. As you said, members of the Congressional Black Caucus, they are asking for a meeting with President Biden to discuss exactly that. The chair of the CBC saying in a statement over the weekend, we are calling on our colleagues in the House and Senate to jump start negotiations now and work with us to address the public health epidemic of police violence that disproportionately affects many of our communities.

[09:05:00]

I should say, we have not gotten the response yet from the White House on this request for a meeting. But President Biden has joined Democrats and members of the CBC in calling for the revival of the so- called George Floyd Police Act. And this is a bill that would, in part, set up a national registry for police misconduct. It would also ban racial and religious profiling by members of law enforcement. It would also ban choke holds and no-knock warrants.

But it is a bill that was introduced twice so far, once in 2020 and once in 2021, excuse me. And it was passed in the House when Democrats controlled the House, but it didn't go anywhere in the Senate. So, you can imagine what an uphill battle it would have now that Republicans control the House, but Democrats are signaling that they still want to push ahead, even given the political obstacles that exist.

Now, while all of this is going on, as you mentioned, next week we are set to see Tyre Nichols' family here in Washington, D.C. They were invited to attend President Biden's State of the Union Address. And we are told that they have accepted that invitation.

SCIUTTO: That will be quite a moment to see.

MJ Lee, at the White House, thanks so much.

HILL: Joining us now, Rashawn Ray, a sociology professor at university - at the University of Maryland, College Park, and former Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo.

It's good to see both of you this morning.

You know, Professor, as we -- as we look at where we're at, and as MJ just laid out for us, we heard over the weekend this renewed push, obviously, to revisit the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. We heard from Senator Dick Durbin who said, look, this may not solve all the problems, but it's certainly a place to start. And then you had Congressman Jim Jordan, on the other hand, was saying, look, this wouldn't have changed anything for Tyre Nichols.

When things in Washington are almost continuously approached in this manner, if there is this attitude of, well, this wouldn't have changed anything, it would not mean that this young man would be alive today, when that's your starting point, how do you get anything done?

RASHAWN RAY, SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND, COLLEGE PARK: You know, I think it's difficult and that's not what the public wants to see. My research documents that the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act would have huge implications for transforming policing in the United States. We have to keep in mind a couple of statistics that have implications for Tyre Nichols.

First, research documents that every one out of 1,000 black males can expect to die to police violence and black people are 3.5 times more likely than whites to be killed by police when they are unarmed and not attacking. That is Tyre Nichols' story. And as we look at the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, Republicans and Democrats were not all that far apart. Qualified immunity was the big thing as it relates to (INAUDIBLE) bias, as it relates to certification. That is something that should be happening across the country.

Also, when it comes to data. There is an implication that these Scorpion Units, or the Red Dog Unit that Chief Davis ran in Atlanta, some kind of way really helped. Well, when we look at crime data across time, and I know Memphis well. I'm a native Tennessean. I attended the University of Memphis. When you look over time it's question whether or not those units actually have that impact. But what we do know is that they often terrorize and brutalize communities that look like me.

SCIUTTO: Chief Arradondo, referring back to the awful tape of the beating of Tyre Nichols, when you hear the cops claim, in the wake of that, on tape, that Nichols swung at them, reached for their gun, though there's no evidence of that visible on the videos, do you see them there aware to some degree that they needed a cover story to justify the violence?

MEDARIA ARRADONDO, FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF: Yes, good morning, Jim and Erica. Thank you for having me.

And, first and foremost, I just want to give my thoughts and condolences to Mr. Nichols' family.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

ARRADONDO: I can only imagine what they're going through.

To your question, Jim, from what I saw on the video, what I can absolutely tell you is that looking at what Chief Davis -- and I - and I know her well, and she is of the utmost character, integrity and ethics, she looked at policy, the procedures of the Memphis Police Department and, at least from what I've reviewed of those policies, she was absolutely right. For Chief Davis to use the words heinous, reckless and inhumane, that is certainly what I saw. And so I think she absolutely did the right thing in terms of holding those officers accountable. There's still an ongoing investigation with her department there. And so she will absolutely do what she needs to do to make sure that that trust is there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: You know, Professor, one thing that was certainly different in the wake of this horrific beating and the ultimate death, which resulted in it for Mr. Nichols, is the initial response. And what we heard initially, including those comments, as Chief Arradondo just referred to, from the police chief there talking about how heinous this was, how inhumane it was. And yet we are back here again asking a number of the same questions. So, is there anything that you have found, both in your research, and I would say even just anecdotally, as you are looking at this country, Professor, that leads you to believe that this time will, in fact, be different, that this horrific death could lead to some change or, at the very least, sustain a conversation a little bit longer?

[09:10:18]

RAY: Well, look, I think as the chief was saying, it's important to note that Memphis is becoming a new standard for accountability up to this point in terms of how they rolled things out. Having an investigation, firing the officers, showing the family the video, preparing for some protests and showing that to the public, charging those officers criminally. I think a lot of people expect for more things to come.

As we think about moving forward, I think we simply have to look at the road to Nashville, where they have a community oversight board where civilians have votes on the police misconduct board. That creates transparency, equity and accountability. Memphis should follow suit.

The other part is dealing with data. We should have data to actually be able to track not only some of these criminalist outcomes when it comes to arrests or when it comes to getting drugs and all these things off the street. Police officers do amazing things every single day. But because our data for police are set up in a deficit manner, we never get those positive outcomes. Those are things that could actually change.

And then, as I mentioned before, that certification process is prime. And the big thing, and here we go, eventually there is going to be a large civil settlement paid out to Tyre Nichols' family. And as person from Tennessee, who has lived in Memphis, Memphis does not have money like that to be paying out this huge settlement, but it will. We need to think about restructuring that, where it comes from police department insurance policies. That is the real accountability.

SCIUTTO: Chief Arradondo, to effect change, is this primarily a legislation issue or a culture issue, that is a police culture issue, how these difficult decisions in the moment are made? You've commanded police before. Which do you think is more impactful?

ARRADONDO: Jim, that's a great question and I would say it's actually both. I think that most police chiefs and certainly Chief Davis has been working on culture change and making sure that the Memphis PD, which, by the way, overwhelmingly has great men and women dedicated each day and night for the citizens of Memphis, but culture in any organization is very difficult to change and you have to continue to stay at it and sustain it, but also legislation.

You know, Chief Davis was able to fire those officers under her employment tools immediately. There are many municipalities around the country, Jim, that that makes it very difficult, the legal laws on constraints make it very difficult for chiefs to, when they see egregious, obvious acts of clear misconduct, it makes it very difficult.

So, legislative changes are very important. We know that police unions have a role in part of that culture change as well. And so I think it's got to be a two-tiered approach, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Gentlemen, really appreciate you both joining us today with your insight. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

RAY: Thank you.

ARRADONDO: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes, so many issues to discuss going forward.

Well, the man who wrestled the gun away from the Monterey Park shooting suspect is now being honored for his heroism. The city of Alhambra and local officials gave Brandon Tsay several honors yesterday, including a medal of courage from the Alhambra Police Department.

HILL: And the 26-year-old will also be a guest of President Biden at the State of Union Address next week. The president invited him during a call last week which was made to thank him for that act of bravery.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Small moments where people make a difference.

Well, still to come, kicking off his run for the White House in 2024, again, former President Trump, he was on the campaign trail this weekend taking early aim at another Republican, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

HILL: Courts set to resume this hour in the murder trial of Alex Murdaugh. New video shows an interview with police just minutes after the bodies of his wife and son were discovered.

Plus, why Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy says 13 is simply too young for social media.

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[09:18:10]

SCIUTTO: This week, President Joe Biden and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy will meet as Democrats and Republicans continue to face off over the debt ceiling.

HILL: Well, this meeting, the first between the two since that contentious vote to elect the speaker, comes as the Treasury Department is taking extraordinary measures to keep the government from defaulting after Congress failed to act on the debt ceiling.

CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill this morning. So, Lauren, McCarthy says he wants to tie, as we know, the debt limit increase to spending cuts. Biden says, no way, no room for negotiation there. So, how are they going to work through this?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this meeting and what it really means for the debt ceiling negotiations going forward is really all in the eye of the beholder. Like you said, Kevin McCarthy hoping that this really opens the door into a broader discussion about what cuts could be negotiated as part of that debt ceiling increase.

Here's what he said yesterday on CBS.

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REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I know the president said he didn't want to have any discussions, but I think it's very important that our whole government is designed to find compromise.

I don't think there's anyone in America who doesn't agree that there's some wasteful Washington spending that we can eliminate. So I want to sit down together, work out an agreement that we can move forward to put us on a path to balance, at the same time not put any of our debt in jeopardy at the same time.

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FOX: And Democrats are arguing that there could be a discussion potentially on spending cuts in the future, but that that, in the past, has never been tied to discussions about the debt ceiling.

And the White House had a very firm statement, making it clear that this meeting on Wednesday is not going to be about negotiations over the debt ceiling, saying, quote, the president will ask Speaker McCarthy if he intends to meet his constitutional obligation to prevent a national default, as every other House and Senate leader in U.S. history has done, and as Leaders McConnell, Schumer and Jeffries have all pledged to do.

[09:20:03]

He will underscore that the economic security of all Americans cannot be held hostage to force unpopular cuts on working families.

And we do know that there are going to be a couple months before this issue really hits a major head. And that, of course, is coming in June when we know that Secretary Yellen has made clear she is going to run out of extraordinary measures to keep the U.S. from defaulting on this debt.

Erica and Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, there are budget negotiations, but not typically with the threat of defaulting on the nation's debt hanging over them.

Lauren Fox, thanks so much. HILL: Joining us now, CNN's senior political analyst John Avlon.

Good to see you this morning.

So, when we - you know, picking up there, what's interesting, as we look at all of this, I think, is that there is this call for budget cuts, right, by the GOP. The conference, though, doesn't seem to have a clear list of what those cuts would be, what the amounts would be. And, let's be honest, they haven't needed one. I think Nate Cohn (ph) pointed out well this morning, this was certainly not a rallying cry for Republicans in the midterms, right? They were focused more on perceived cultural issues.

So, how does Kevin McCarthy, then -- or can Kevin McCarthy, I guess is the question, get his caucus on one page here?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, Kevin McCarthy has struggled to do that from literally day one of his speakership. But I think you point to the right issue, which is that Republicans haven't actually set out what their spending cut goals are. And usually when you negotiate with someone, they have a list of requests, demands and you bounce it back on the other side. And, of course, as you point out, none of this is done with the full faith and credit of the United States being held hostage.

Now, Republicans have traditionally been the party of fiscal responsibility. But when presidents and their party have been in power, they have let the spending ride, right?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

AVLON: Twenty-five percent of all the federal debt was accumulated under Donald Trump.

So, this is a real issue. The Democrats are -- and Republicans are going to need to find some way to compromise their different philosophies, but Republicans need to, a, have specific plans and, b, more consistent when there's a Republican president. Don't just care about the deficit and the debt when a Democrat is in the White House.

SCIUTTO: Forgive me, John, but when we speak about regular order, how business of Congress is normally done, typically you get majorities elected in both houses, you negotiate a budget, you pass a budget with those votes. You don't hold default over the head and claim that that's a negotiation. Is that -- when we speak about regular order?

AVLON: Yes. Yes, that would be regular order. But, Jim, you know, you're right, we talk a lot about great power of politics. If the United States were to default on its obligations, it would be the equivalent of a great power lighting itself on fire. And I think there's a danger, frankly, of thinking that it will never happen. But it is being used as a constant threat, and that's got to stop if you care actually about making America strong, great power in the world. And the Republicans keep playing with this.

SCIUTTO: Yes. HILL: And as -- and as we look forward, I mean as Lauren points out, right, June, it's not until June. As we all know, June is coming at us, barreling at us like a freight train. It's going to be here before anybody knows it.

AVLON: Ye.

HILL: There isn't really a lot of time to deal with. I wonder, just, you know, from a really practical perspective, this meeting is - it's really kind of a win for Kevin McCarthy. That's a good thing ultimately for the American people. Is this meeting, in your view, a good thing for the American people that the speaker and the president are sitting down together?

AVLON: Yes, if they can reason together. You know, it is absolutely - Kevin's got a -- Kevin McCarthy has got to have a list of requests, and they have to find a way to reason together, but it can't be with the sword hanging over the nation's full faith and credit. It's always good when a speaker and the president sit down. They've got to be able to reason together. But they've got to be able to do it reasonably without threat of lighting your -- the country on fire to do -- going forward. That's not too much to ask. That should be table stakes.

HILL: No.

SCIUTTO: All right, so you've got a Republican majority in the House.

AVLON: Yes.

SCIUTTO: And they are promising and ran in part on oversight of the Democratic administration. They're planning a number of investigations through a number of committees. And they plan to expedite the subpoena process.

Where does the power of the congressional subpoena stand right now given all the challenges that Republican lawmakers and officials made to Democratic subpoenas in the last Congress?

AVLON: That's the problem. Look, we get back to the fundamental demise of the politics of the golden rule where parties were trying to impose rules that they wouldn't want imposed on themselves. So, if Republicans start going on a series of investigations and issuing a lot of subpoenas, Democrats will say, look, you ignored subpoenas when we were in power.

We need to get back to regular order and actually treating the other power - other party like you would like to be treated, but that seems a world away from where we are as long as Jim Jordan's running, you know, investigations.

HILL: Real quickly before we let you go -

AVLON: Yes.

HILL: New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu said he's considering maybe running in 2024 - AVLON: Yes.

HILL: But acknowledged this uphill battle when you look at who else is on the playing field. Definitely Donald Trump, likely Ron DeSantis. Is there room for another Republican to throw their hat in the ring?

AVLON: Absolutely.

[09:25:00]

And I think Chris Sununu has got a record of governing. He, obviously, you know, first in the nation primary in New Hampshire on the Republican side. You're going to need people who represent different wings. I think Nikki Haley is obviously looking at running. Vice President Pence.

What -- the important thing is for Republicans not to be cowed by the specter of Donald Trump running again and have the courage in their convictions. And then the process will play out. People will drop out before the primary votes are cast depending on how they're doing. But, you know, governors are traditionally a great place to look for future presidents.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

AVLON: And the center right needs a representative here. Too many people have been tiptoeing around Donald Trump while trying to convince themselves that he doesn't have a shot at winning that nomination because he's unelectable in the fall. Get in the race and let the process play out. That would be good for the country and the Republican Party.

HILL: John Avlon, always good to see you. Thank you.

AVLON: Take care, guys.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's been nearly a month since the awful story of a six-year-old shooting his first-grade teacher. Well, now students have returned just this morning to the school where it happened. They face a new, long list of safety and security measures. We'll have the details next.

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