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Renewed Calls for Federal Police Reform After Deadly Beating in Memphis; Biden and Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) to Meet Wednesday Amid Debt Limit Debate; Trump Takes Early Aim at Potential 2024 GOP Rivals. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 30, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour this Monday morning. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

Urgent renewed calls this morning for federal police reform following the fatal police beating of Tyre Nichols and the release, of course, of those videos on Friday night. The Congressional Black Caucus is asking for a meeting with President Biden this week to push for negotiations. The question, of course, can any real change get through this Congress.

Here is Nichols family Attorney Benjamin Crump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TYRE NICHOLS' FAMILY: We said that it is going to remind people of the Rodney King video in 1992. And that was a watershed moment for America. And I believe that this video is a watershed moment for America.

And what are our national leaders going to do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Over the weekend, the Memphis Police Department took one step. It terminated the so-called SCORPION Unit. That's the task force those officers belonged to and at the center of Nichols' death.

Joining me now is Karen Camper. She's the Tennessee statehouse minority leader, a candidate as well, we should note, for mayor in Memphis. Good to have you on this morning. Thanks for taking the time.

STATE REP. KAREN CAMPER (D-TN): Thank you so much, Jim, for having me. I appreciate it.

SCIUTTO: You saw the decision about disbanding the SCORPION Unit, and many have said that's a step in the right direction, I wonder, though, in your view, is this a problem with a particular police unit or do you fear there is a larger cultural problem given all the steps, the horrible violent steps we saw that cops take in that video?

CAMPER: Thank you, again, for having me on your show to talk about this very important issue. I believe, just like many in the community that had expressed to me, just even this very weekend, I held some small group session with community leaders and people in the community, that it is a deeper problem than just the one unit we saw, the one team within the unit.

We have got to begin to look more comprehensively at the entire system, and that is from the community to the cops, to the courts. Because, you know, Ben Crump said himself that we were a blueprint for what could be in terms of how swiftly we acted, but we also need to think about being a blueprint for what is possible and changing the culture of the entire criminal justice system.

SCIUTTO: You mentioned the police chief is very quick, very critical comments about what you saw in the video, of course, the district attorney working very quickly to charge these officers here. Do you see some progress in the speed of those responses?

CAMPER: I do feel that there is progress even with the fact that the mayor disbanded the units shortly thereafter afterwards. But sometimes when things are cultural or systemic or deeply institutional, it is going to be taking more time to make the shift.

I think about it in terms of my military career where we would say how long it takes to shift a battleship. It takes time, but the smaller boats can move very quickly. So, I do feel that they've moved quickly with this one particular incident, but it is a bigger shift that we have to look at taking.

SCIUTTO: I wonder if I could bring your metaphor along, when you look at national police reform legislation as opposed to the city level, where, arguably, there could be more freedom to make changes, but do you believe to make events like this less likely nationally, that Congress really has to move and come to an agreement in a way it was not able to after George Floyd?

CAMPER: I agree with you. We have been having conversations with the White House on this very issue, and he is expected to be meeting with McCarthy, which I think is a good thing. The opportunity is before us. But we have to begin to think about the impact qualified immunity has had on this situation overall. And so I do think that there is opportunity, we just have to have the courage to do it.

I have a meeting, myself, today with the governor. And in his inaugural speech, and throughout the entire inaugural weekend, the theme was Tennessee lead in the nation. This is an opportunity for Tennessee to lead on something like this. And so that is why I think this comprehensive review, at least at our state level, is something that we need to begin to do and I'm going to be pushing forward to do.

[10:05:04]

But I do agree with you, if we will deal with it at the national level, it can have a huge impact on communities across the country.

SCIUTTO: Steering that ship. State Representative Karen Camper, we do appreciate you joining us this morning.

CAMPER: Thank you so much.

SCIUTTO: Erica?

HILL: The attorney for Desmond Mills Jr., who is one of the five ex- Memphis police officers charged in the beating of Tyre Nichols, is now calling for caution and patience, releasing a statement which notes, some of the questions that remain will require focus on Desmond Mill's individual actions, what he knew, what he was able to see when he arrived at the scene. As the attorney points out, he arrived late to the scene, and also after he was pepper sprayed. It goes on to say, whether Desmond's actions crossed line that were crossed by other officers during the incident.

Joining me now, Chris Stewart, he's managing partner and the Stewart Miller Simmons Trial Attorneys, and Todd Axtell, former chief of police there at St. Paul, Minnesota Police Department. Gentlemen, good to see you both this morning.

Chris, the attorney is basically saying here, look, this should be about individual action. All five officers who were fired, of course, fired officers, have been charged with second-degree murder along other charges. Do you see that this could change based on even what we are hearing from him and what you saw in that video?

CHRIS STEWART, MANAGING PARTNER, STEWART MILLER SIMMONS TRIAL ATTORNEYS: Absolutely not. It may have been -- he is trying to say, look at the individual actions, but it makes up the collective. America really needs to pay attention to the audio. That is just as important as the vicious beating we saw. You listen to them concoct the story afterwards, say he reached for my gun, he threw a punch. That is what happens all the time. They try and justify a brutality with unjustified use of force. Pay attention to the audio. That is why this keeps happening.

HILL: Chief, you actually, in the wake of George Floyd's arrest and George Floyd's death, you asked all of the officers to watch that video, and you challenged them to try to put them in George Floyd's shoes, and to think about that as they go about their jobs. Did anything change after that?

TODD AXTELL, PRESIDENT AND CEO, THE AXTELL GROUP: You know, we have in the St. Paul Police Department -- I'm not the chief anymore -- but we have to get into the conversation about the culture of agencies and policies really mean nothing without a good, solid culture.

I remember in the wake of George Floyd having conversations with the officers, seeing tears in their eyes and having conversations now almost three years later, the same conversations are happening. We are absolutely disgusted by what we have observed on the video and heard on the audio. It absolutely has to change. But there are things that can be done. And I guarantee you that this is not -- it was not a surprise by other members, good members of the Memphis Police Department, who saw this happen, because officers don't come to work on any given day and decide to act in this egregious way. They have done this before, and what is monitored is managed.

HILL: So, to that point then, just to follow up on that point, how do you weed that out, right? Is that part of the training? I mean, how do you look out for -- you know, the chief in Memphis was very clear and calling this inhumane, right, among other adjectives to describe this behavior. How do you weed that out based on what you saw you believe that behavior, that instinct was already there?

AXTELL: Yes, you have to hire the heart, first and foremost. Somebody who has humanity, who understands the job of a police department is to build trust with the community. You have to operate under the philosophy of the bank of trust, making positive deposits each and every day, each interactions you have with your diverse communities across the country, because we know it takes one incident, one incident to wipe out the entire bank deposit out, and that is what has happened.

Now, every police officers, 1 million police officers in this country are again suffering as a result of a few people who went out there and decided to kill another human being under the color of law. It is absolutely disgusting, and it could be changed. It does not have to be this way. There are things that we can do to make sure that this does not happen.

HILL: So, when you talk about the things that need to be done, Chris, there's a lot of focus this morning on what didn't happen in Washington. Could this be a moment for some more action? And the question on whether legislation is the issue here or is it more hiring for the heart, as we just heard, is it more about the training and how the two work together? What do you see is the path forward, Chris?

STEWART: I don't know, because I sat there with Ben in Washington, D.C. in a lot of these politicians' private offices trying to get the George Floyd bill passed, and nothing happened.

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The moment passed.

And, once again, we also have to realize that people cannot look for their own motives. You cannot just listen to just the union. You can't just listen to options (ph). You have to actually know at the local level also. They know, Erica, the departments know who the problems are, they just don't hold them accountable before someone is killed.

HILL: So, I wonder then, as we just heard from Karen Camper, who was just speaking with Jim, currently in the Tennessee statehouse, she was saying that, on a national level of things could be done, that would have a massive impact on a local level in terms of the trickle down. But I think you also hear from people, look, if we can do more stuff on a local level, maybe that will trickle up. So, I wonder, as you are looking at this, Chief, and you're looking at the way things are playing out, is there a blueprint that you see that could to more actions, specifically on a legislative level that would keep this conversation going?

Sorry, Chief, that was for you, Chief.

I think that we may have lost that audio. But, Chris, as we are looking at that, right, and you have been there in these meetings, as you point out. And there's always this back and forth of where things need to happen, where they don't need to happen. And I noted this earlier by we heard over the weekend from lawmakers, you have Congressman Jordan saying, yes, I think there are things to be done, but there is nothing in the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act that would have changed things for Tyre Nichols. It's this, well, I am throwing up my hand because this one bit of legislation is not solve all of problems. Do you see a way of breaking through that barrier?

STEWART: Yes. It is so simple. Local level also, internal affairs, supervisors that get these reports. I have had so many cases where the officers did exactly what they did in this video, they made up a story that clearly was a lie, and they were not reprimanded, not reprimanded, not reprimanded and ended up killing somebody.

It is clear. It is right there. You just have to do your job. That's why we need independent boards along with some police enforcement to review use of force incidents. They need independent prosecutors. We have to be watching.

Chris Stewart and Todd Axtell, I appreciate you both joining us today, and I appreciate the work that you are doing. Thank you.

STEWART: Thank you.

AXTELL: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: New this morning, CNN has learned that the parents of Tyre Nichols will attend President Biden's state of the union address next week. They will be guests of the Congressional Black Caucus.

HILL: Also expected to be in attendance that evening, Brandon Tsay, who was the man who disarmed the Monterey Park Gunman, as he attempted to attack a second dance studio near Los Angeles. He was invited by California Congresswoman Judy Chu.

Up next here, President Biden and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy set to meet on Wednesday to discuss the stalemate in terms of -- over raising the debt ceiling. What the White House says here about the possibility for compromise.

Plus, police now warning women about a man who could pop up under dating apps. A man who is already accused of kidnapping and torturing a woman in Oregon, why they think he could be using these apps to find his next victim.

SCIUTTO: Goodness, that is frightening. Later, Florida has banned high schools from teaching A.P. African- American studies. One pastor, however, is now offering his church as a classroom for the course.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to know our history, and so that we can do better as a community.

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SCIUTTO: The debt ceiling battle is entering a critical new phase with high-stakes, frankly, for the economy. President Joe Biden and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, they will meet face-to-face for the first time this week aiming, at least work out a plan to keep the U.S. from defaulting.

HILL: Some Republicans want spending cuts first, something Speaker McCarthy seems open to the White House, though, has said, it is a nonstarter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEV MCCARTHY (R-CA): I don't think there's anyone in America who does not agree that there is some wasteful Washington spending that we can eliminate. So, I want to sit down together, work out an agreement that we can move forward to put us on the path to balance, at the same time not put any of our debt in jeopardy at the same time.

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HILL: The CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill. So, I mean, is there a path forward? A meeting is a good first step, but is this really going to be about any negotiating?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That is really the question. They cannot even agree what they are meeting on. Speaker McCarthy believes this is the opening salvo of negotiations, horse trading, to try to agree to raise the national debt ceiling. The White House says there is no room for negotiation. In fact, they say that this is a typical meeting that the president has with new leaders of Congress, with the incoming leadership team. He met with Democrats last week. He is meeting with Speaker McCarthy Wednesday. They say the debt ceiling is nonnegotiable. They are calling on Congress to raise the national debt limit, avoid a first ever debt default and do that without any conditions, whatsoever. That is a nonstarter for Republicans who are demanding this to be tied to some level of spending cuts.

Now, McCarthy has not been precise on exactly what they are talking about, but he did indicate over the weekend that their cuts to social security and the Medicare, issues that Democrats, for a long time, have hammered Republicans over, McCarthy said that that was not going to be part of the discussions. There will be the talks, he believes, over discretionary spending cuts, potentially to even some defense programs. But how much spending cuts? What programs specifically Republicans want to propose to cut is still something that they are talking about behind the scenes. But, again, the White House is saying, they don't want to even entertain any of those cuts, whatsoever.

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So, at the moment, we will see where this talk comes, where the Wednesday meeting ultimately leads, whether these are actually real negotiations, but at the moment, both sides posturing ahead of a very risky standoff, one that could potentially lead to the first ever default, something that we saw in 2011. It did not lead to a default, but it led to a downgrading of the U.S. economy brinksmanship on both sides, but can they avoid that? They probably have up until about June to avoid it, but right now, the posturing phase in full force. Guys?

SCIUTTO: Manu Raju on the Hill, thanks so much.

Here now to speak more, CNN Political Director David Chalian. And, David, I mean, there are budget negotiations in Washington. They follow elections where you count the votes on each side and negotiate the bottom line. This is different and that the budget has already been passed. These issues have already passed through Congress, and, in effect, you have a threat here from Republicans to default on the debt if they don't get new cuts to the deal. I mean, is that the essential framework of what is happening here?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. I love that Manu referred to what we're in, as the posturing phase right now. That phase lasts longer than anything else in Washington, the posturing phase. But I do think, Jim, what you are saying here is important here, and I think it's important for us to understand the nuance here.

The White House's position is that we cannot negotiate on the actual raising of the debt limit, that that piece business has to be done cleanly. That's from the White House perspective, because it's dealing with paying our obligations on money already spent.

Now, the White House also clearly says, when you talk to folks there, they are more than happy to have a conversation with Kevin McCarthy and Republicans about overall government spending going forward and reducing spending, and what have you. So, you see, or at least I think you can see where they become sort of semantics here. The White House is going to engage on discussions about reducing government spending and looking at discretionary programs, just like the House speaker would like them to. They're just looking to have it not directly tied to the business of raising the debt ceiling.

HILL: Because they're two different things, right, and that's what's trying to be separated is, let's be clear here, this money has already been spent in terms of the debt ceiling, let's talk about spending going forward. So, there's also -- as we look at it, there's a lot of discussion last week, of course, about the intelligence committee, Speaker McCarthy, as he can do, unilaterally removing Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell. Now, there's a real focus on the foreign affairs committee and Ilhan Omar, as we know. But that would require -- removing her from the House Foreign Affairs Committee would require a full vote in the House. And Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal has said, she believes there are at least five GOP members who would not support that removal. Where do things stand this morning? Does Kevin McCarthy actually have the votes to remove Congresswoman Omar?

CHALIAN: Yes. I don't think we know the actual answer to that question yet, Erica. But, first of all, I don't think Pramila Jayapal, who is like the head of the progressive caucus, should be the vote counter for how many votes Kevin McCarthy has on the Republican side.

HILL: New bipartisan work here. It is a beautiful thing.

CHALIAN: But, nonetheless, there is reason for her to be skeptical that he has the votes all locked up right now because we have seen a couple of the members of the House of the Republican conference come out and say they are not at all interested in pursuing this and they would vote against the notion of removing Omar from the committee.

Now, Kevin McCarthy has four votes to play with here, so two are declared opponents to this already. Will there be others that defect? That is something Kevin McCarthy is seeking to understand. I'd doubt he is going to bring this to the floor without knowing whether or not the votes are there. I don't think we're going to see a repeat of the speaker election, if you will, on this one. If he brings it to the floor, it's likely he knows he has the votes to bring it to conclusion.

SCIUTTO: Well, Donald Trump, he was back on the campaign trail this weekend to crucial early states, New Hampshire and North Carolina. The changed dynamic in this race, it seems at this point, is that he has real challengers, some of them quite public, some others not so public inside his own party, which he is aware of, he took aim at some of them this weekend. Have a listen.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Nikki Haley called me the other to talk to me. I talked to her for a little while. But I said, look, go by your heart to run if you want to run. She has publicly said that I would never run against my president, and he was a great president.

Florida was actually close for a great, long period of time. You remember, he closed the beaches and everything else? They are trying to rewrite history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Him talking about DeSantis getting credit for keeping Florida open. Is he worried about rivals within his own party? CHALIAN: Well, sure, he understands that he's in a different political position than he has been in the past. He understands he is a twice impeached former president, one that just had a case laid out to the American people about his role in inciting an insurrection, and his 2022 midterm campaign performance obviously has caused a lot of questions inside the party, whether or not stick with Trump is a way to ensure victory going forward.

[10:25:06]

However, what you saw there in that clip, I thought, was instructive, Jim, because you see how he treats potential rivals differently. If you just assess his comments, perhaps he does not think Nikki Haley is as direct a threat as he thinks Ron DeSantis may be. He says, sure, I tell her, if she wants to run, she should run. With DeSantis, he started just unloading on a key issue, like COVID management in the state of Florida that he thinks DeSantis is trying to rewrite history. That clearly will be a discussion point and a fault line should those two end up on the debate stage together.

HILL: David Chalian, always good to see you. Thank you.

CHALIAN: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, police in Oregon are asking women to take a close look at this man's face. He is accused of several extremely violent assaults on women. Officials are warning he could be using dating apps to look for his next victim.

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