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Blinken Calls For Calm Between Palestinians And Israelis; Officials: At Least 88 Killed, Dozens Injured In Blast; Two More Memphis Police Officers Relieved Of Duty. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired January 31, 2023 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[02:00:38]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead here on CNN NEWSROOM. High stakes diplomacy. The U.S. Secretary of State visiting Israel and the West Bank amid soaring tensions and a series of violent attacks.

And scenes of devastation in Pakistan after a bomb ripped through a crowded mosque leaving dozens of people dead. We will have a live report from Islamabad.

Plus, escaping from one of the world's most notorious mercenary groups, one man says he managed to flee Russia's Wagner group after fighting in Ukraine.

ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center. This is CNN NEWSROOM with Rosemary Church.

CHURCH: Thanks for joining us. Well, the U.S. Secretary of State he is on the final day of his trip to the Middle East where he is trying to help defuse tensions between Israelis and Palestinians. Any moment now, Antony Blinken is expected to hold talks with Israel's opposition leader Yair Lapid. It comes a day after he met with the country's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem.

At a joint news conference, Blinken reaffirmed America's commitment to Israel as well as its support for a two-state solution with the Palestinians. He also called on both sides to deescalate a wave of deadly violence in the region. And in the day ahead, Blinken is expected to deliver a similar message to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas at a meeting in the West back.

CNN's Hadas Gold has more now on what Blinken hopes to achieve.

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HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As the U.S. Secretary of State's plane landed in Tel Aviv, so did hopes that Antony Blinken visit will dial down the raging temperature on the ground here. After days of some of the worst bloodshed for both Israelis and Palestinians in years from the occupied West Bank, to Jerusalem.

ANTONY BLINKEN, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: We're urging all sides now to take urgent steps to restore calm to deescalate.

GOLD: Blinken meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was already set to be prickly. The top U.S. diplomat's first visit Israel since Netanyahu is new government came into power, largely considered the most right-wing nationalist and religious government in Israeli history. Now reaching an even greater urgency.

BLINKEN: We continue to believe that the best way to achieve it is through preserving and then realizing the vision of two states. As I said to the Prime Minister, anything that moves us away from that vision is in our judgment detrimental to Israel's long-term security, and its long-term identity as a Jewish and democratic state.

GOLD: Blinken seemingly alluding to Israeli moves in the week of attacks, including demolishing homes of attackers and even pushing draft legislation that would revoke the Israeli residency cards of the families of those deemed terrorist. Netanyahu facing his own internal pressures from the more extremist members of his cabinet to go even further in response to these latest attacks.

The Israeli leader barely mentioning the recent wave of violence, arguing that it is through expanded normalization agreements with Arab countries that will ultimately help bring peace on the ground here.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I also believe that expanding the circle of peace, working to close finally, the file of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I think would also help us achieve a workable solution with our Palestinian neighbors.

GOLD: Blinken heads to Ramallah on Tuesday to meet with Palestinian leadership, where he will likely be pushing for them to restore the security coordination with Israel, the Palestinian authority cut last week, seen as one of the few tools available to help prevent an escalation of violence.

Hadas Gold, CNN, Jerusalem.

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CHURCH: Joining me now is Shibley Telhami. The Anwar Sadat Professor for Peace and Development at the University of Maryland. He's also a nonresident senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Thank you, sir, for being with us.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, ANWAR SADAT PROFESSOR FOR PEACE AND DEVELOPMENT, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: My pleasure.

CHURCH: So, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken will meet with the Palestinian leadership in the coming hours, this after already meeting with Israel's Prime Minister, president and foreign minister on Monday. Now he sent an urgent message to all sides to deescalate the current spike in deadly violence. But when you look at this cycle of violence in the region is that deescalation at achievable under the current circumstances?

[02:05:03]

TELHAMI: Not only is it not achievable but I think the focus on status quo and maintaining the status quo will only fuel the violence. And I think it mischaracterizes the reason for the violence. Of course, one reason is that you have a new Israeli government. That is far right. That has made it clear how it would deal with the Palestinians in the West Bank under Israeli military control. And clearly, that is something that worries the administration in Washington.

CHURCH: And during his first trip to the region since Benjamin Netanyahu returned to power Secretary Blinken emphasize that the most important thing is to keep alive the idea of a two-state solution. He added that any move away from that goal would show the world that Israel was losing some of its democratic values. How was that blunt message likely received by Mr. Netanyahu do you think?

TELHAMI: Well, of course, you know, for Mr. Netanyahu, that's not the issue. The question is how it's going to be received on the ground, because the Israeli government clearly has no intention of relinquishing control and always spent and made that clear. And the idea that to keep the two-state solution open when most people don't think, nowhere near possible in any foreseeable future.

And again, you know, you're talking about 5-1/2 decades of military control which by definition, is violent. We only look at the violent actions that take place that are visible, such as the horrible shootings that we see and Israeli actions and in places like Jenin and the horrible shooting in East Jerusalem. All of these things obviously matter. And he and the administration wants to maintain sort of access of escalation.

I wouldn't say de-escalation because de-escalation means the end of violence, but violence is intrinsic to the structure of military control every single day. And so, the idea of just promising something that's not on the horizon, as if that is going to pacify people. I just don't think that works.

CHURCH: Right. Of course, it's important to emphasize there is violence on both sides here and Secretary Blinken is calling for calm on all sides so that conditions are right to restore a sense of security to both Israelis and Palestinians. But what all do you expect he will actually achieve on these high stakes visit to the Middle East? Is it just a first step in perhaps many?

TELHAMI: Well, look, let's look at it from terms of -- from the point of view of the administration's priorities. Obviously, the administration in some ways doesn't want anything to disrupt it other priorities. First and foremost, of course, it's effort in Ukraine and anything that will disrupt that but (INAUDIBLE) especially to escalation that might not only draw a wider conflict in Israel and the Palestinians, but also possibly spread into some parts of the Arab world.

That obviously, they don't want that and clearly, they want to try to find a way to keep the lid on that. Number two, he obviously is worried about the proposed changes of Israeli legal system. That clearly would weaken the Israeli courts in the Supreme Court and give the Israeli government far more ability to act most in -- under all the charges that go including inside Israel itself. That worries a lot of Israelis, you see all the demonstrations by Israelis who are worried about it.

But it also would affect minorities, Palestinian citizens of Israel, as well as post Indians in the West Bank and Gaza. Those are the sorts of things that are on the Secretary's mind and I think that he's going to have a tough time with it.

CHURCH: Shibley Telhami, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

TELHAMI: My pleasure.

CHURCH: In Pakistan, the death toll is rising from a deadly bombing in the northwestern city of Peshawar. Hospital officials now say at least 88 people were killed after a bomb rip through a mosque located inside a police compound Monday. Pakistan's Prime Minister has condemned the attack and so far, it's still unclear who's behind the blast.

CNN's Ivan Watson has details.

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IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Dazed worshippers pulling themselves out from the rubble. A deadly blast hit this mosque during afternoon prayers partially collapsing the building. The suspected attack targeting a police compound in Pakistan's northwestern city of Peshawar.

[02:10:03]

The victims likely mostly law enforcement caught off guard in a place of worship.

HAJI SHAHNAWAZ, WITNESS (through translator): We took out the injured and sent them to hospital. The dead bodies should all be inside the mosque buried under the rubble.

WATSON: Dozens are confirmed dead, Pakistani police say with more than 150 injured.

Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif condemned what he's calling a suicide blast saying, "The brutal killing of Muslims prostrating before Allah is against the teachings of the Quran. Terrorists want to create fear by targeting those who performed the duty of defending Pakistan."

Monday's blast was the worst the city has seen since March of last year when a suicide bombing that ISIS later claimed responsibility for killed at least 61 at a Shiite Mosque during Friday prayers.

Leaders of Pakistan's rival political parties condemned the latest mosque bombing. A country with a long history of deadly political violence, now bracing for the threat of more possible suicide attacks.

Ivan Watson, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: And for more we want to go to CNN's Sophia Saifi who joins us live from Islamabad. Sophia, what is the latest on this deadly blast?

SOPHIA SAIFI, CNN PRODUCER: Rosemary, like you just said earlier the death toll has increased overnight. People have been burying their dead overnight. We're seeing more funerals take place in the Peshawar. Now we have to understand what's caused this increase in militant attacks in Pakistan. I mean, the attack of the shelter is the worst in many years in this country. And it had been a relative period of calm for the past couple of years here in Pakistan until the fall of Kabul in 24 -- in 2021.

I've been speaking to analysts, and they've told me that ever since the ceasefire between the Pakistani Taliban and the Pakistani state fell apart in November of last year, there has been an increase in militant attacks in the north of Pakistan. Peshawar is in the province of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. And that borders of Afghanistan in the northwest, you know, basically what we're being told by different analyst and these accusations are being made and have been made for the past couple of months is according to the Pakistani government, the Pakistani Taliban have found safe havens within Afghanistan.

And that the current Taliban are showing a blind eye towards the activities of the Pakistani Taliban on Pakistani soil. And it is a very depressing and sad day here for Pakistanis, for -- the people of Peshawar specifically who have seen many, many deadly, bloody depressing attacks take place in this city. And it is a horrible sense of deja vu for the people of that city. And as we continue to hear from government officials to find out what -- who is actually behind this attack.

Of course, you've got conflicting reports from the Taliban about whether they have or have not been behind this horrific attack at a mosque in the afternoon on Monday. We just have to have to wait to see what more is shared by Pakistani authorities. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right. Sophia Saifi joining us live from Islamabad. Many thanks for that report.

Well, back here on the United States. We have learned two more police officers in Memphis, Tennessee were removed from duty after the beating death of Tyre Nichols. Only one, Preston Hemphill has been publicly identified. It's unclear why their punishments were not announced sooner. He was seen on body cam footage firing a taser at Nichols at the initial traffic stop. But his attorney says Hemphill was not at the second site where Nicholas was beaten.

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PRESTON HEMPHILL. MEMPHIS POLICE OFFICER: One of them prongs hit the bastard. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) my taser.

HEMPHILL: I hope they stomp his ass. I hope they stomp his ass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Five former Memphis police officers are facing second-degree murder charges in the fatal beating. And the district attorney says more charges are possible. Three fire department personnel have been fired for their inaction as well. Video of the beating led to protests and a number of US cities over the weekend. Funeral Services for the 29-year-old Nichols will be held on Wednesday.

Peru's congress is debating a bill to bring forward elections in an effort to end weeks of protests. The country's president wants the election to be brought forward to 2023 after demonstrations paralyzed parts of the country and left dozens dead. If congress refuses to advance elections Dina Boluarte says she will put oppose a constitutional reform to allow a first round of voting in October and a runoff in December.

[02:15:07]

According to a recent survey, 73 percent of Peruvians want elections this year.

A second day of nationwide strikes will soon get underway in France. Workers are furious over the government's plans to raise the retirement age by two years. And the country is preparing for closures and chaos throughout the coming day.

CNN's Melissa Bell has this report from Paris.

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MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The last protests against pension reform so more than a million people take to the streets of France according to official figures. Just over 10 days later, unions are hoping to top that. They're also calling for strikes across the public and private sectors like the ones that paralyze so much of the country on January 19th. But for now, the government hasn't budged.

OLIVIER VERAN, FRENCH GOVERNMENT SPOKESPERSON (through translator): We're not asking everyone to agree with the reform we're carrying out. What we want is, first of all, to explain that this reform is essential, and that we must do it.

BELL: Currently, the French can retire at 62 or even earlier in some cases, with a minimum monthly government pension of around 1000 euros. Earlier this month, the French Prime Minister announced plans to raise the retirement age from 62 to 64 with a full pension raised by an average of 100 euros a month.

STEPHANIE RIST, GOVERNMENT M.P. (through translator): The reform is necessary because the accounts are in deficit from this year. Our pension system is no longer balance and by 2027. We are looking at a deficit of roughly 12 billion euros.

BELL: Pension reform has been derailed in the past in 1995. Under then President Jacques Chirac, it also faced stiff resistance under Macron's two predecessors.

FRANCOIS HOMMERIL, PRESIDENT, CFE-CGC UNION (through translator): This reform comes at a time when there's a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, a lot of fatigue. In fact, it comes at the worst time with living standards down and the cost of living up. For some people, shopping bills are up by 20 or 30 percent and rent hasn't fallen. And all of that creates a climate of defiance.

BELL: Largely peaceful defiance so far, but also anger. With more than 70 people detained last time.

Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.

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CHURCH: Coming up next. Ukraine is urging its Western allies to supply more weapons and equipment including fighter jets. Hear what the U.S. president is saying about that request.

Plus, an exclusive interview with a former Wagner mercenary group fighter. Hear his chilling account of how reluctant recruits were treated.

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BELL: Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy says it's critical that these strong decisions taken by his country's allies are followed by quick action just days after pledges of more military equipment for Ukraine.

[02:20:14]

And he offered this stark assessment of what Russia is up to now.

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VOLODYMR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): I think Russia really wants its big revenge. I think it has already started.

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CHURCH: President Zelenskyy was joined Monday by the Danish Prime Minister on a visit to the Mykolaiv region. Meanwhile, the British defense secretary says 14 Challenge 2 main battle tanks from the U.K. should reach Ukraine by May. But when it comes to Ukraine's request for fighter jets, U.S. President Joe Biden is making it clear the U.S. will not be sending any.

The French president and the Dutch Prime Ministers say they have not received any requests for fighter jets, but that nothing is off limits in principle. He is fighting there in the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut, that one Ukrainian commander calls a living hell. He told Ukrainian T.V. the country's troops are doing an incredible job as Russian forces tried to take control of a key highway. He also said the Wagner mercenary group is almost completely destroyed and being replaced by Russian paratroopers who also suffer losses almost daily.

This comes as the battle between Russia and Ukraine continues to intensify on the frontlines in eastern Ukraine.

And CNN's Scott McLean is following developments for us. He joins us live from London. Good morning to you, Scott. So, what is the latest on fighting on the frontlines in Bakhmut?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, Rosemary, Bakhmut is a town that before the war few people outside of Ukraine would have even heard of. In fact, even if you were living in Ukraine, you may not have even heard of it. And yet, in the last few months, this has become such a strategically important town that the Russians have thrown a heck of a lot of troops, heck of a lot of equipment at trying to capture so far, though, with no luck.

Part of the reason why Ukraine has been so successful and actually defending this place is because it has a lot of natural fortifications, hills, valleys, sort of forested areas, waterways that make it very difficult for the Russians to make inroads. It is also extremely well defended by the Ukrainians as well. The head of the Wagner private military group said that every house there is like a fortress and that there's defenses up every 10 meters or so.

But now it seems that the Russians are starting to make inroads, at least in surrounding and encircling the city making some progress and cutting off some of the routes to the north and to the south and some of the last remaining roads in and out for the Ukrainians have come under heavy fire over the last week. According to Ukrainian commanders in the town, one Ukrainian commander said that volunteers can no longer come in and out and that those civilians who remain are essentially living in their basement.

And he said that if Ukraine does choose to withdraw from Bakhmut at some point, it will be only to preserve the lives of its soldiers so that they can live to fight another day. Something that we've heard previously from Ukrainians ahead of withdrawals in places like Soledar, a town about 10 miles north, Rosemary.

CHURCH: And Scott, President Putin's former speech writer says a military coup is becoming a possibility in Russia. What more are you learning about that?

MCLEAN: Yes. This is a pretty remarkable prediction coming from an ex- speech writer, his name's Abbas Gallyamov. And he told CNN yesterday that, look, if Vladimir Putin is having difficulty winning the war, say a year from now or so he's going to have some problems holding on to popular support back home. And so, he's up for reelection in March of next year. But Gallyamov predicted that perhaps if things are not looking good at that point that Putin instead of declaring his candidacy for reelection may instead opt to declare martial law and cancel the elections altogether.

And he says that, so if the economy is not doing well, if more and more Russian troops are being repatriated to the country in caskets, then he described the national psyche, perhaps looking something like this. Listen.

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ABBAS GALLYAMOV, FORMER PUTIN SPEECHWRITER: Russians will be coming across more and more difficulties (INAUDIBLE) and they will be trying to find the explanation why this is happening to us. And in this situation, they'll be looking around in politics and to the political process and they will be answering themselves. Well, this is because our country is governed by an old tyrant and now dictator.

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MCLEAN: And so, Gallyamov says at that point, that is when there is a real possibility of a military coup or a coup of elites or some combination of civilians and military elites working together to take control of the country because Vladimir Putin, he says has really carved out. This reputation of course as being this strong leader.

[02:25:03]

And if Putin can't be strong, can't get things done in Ukraine then suddenly Russians really have no use for him. Rosemary?

CHURCH: All right. Let's see what happens there. Scott McLean, joining us live from London. Appreciate it.

Well, former fighter with the Wagner mercenary group is describing the brutality he says he witnessed on the frontlines in Ukraine, including the ruthless treatment of reluctant Russian recruits. Wagner has emerged as a key player in Russia's invasion. One of its former commanders, Andrei Medvedev escaped to Norway, where he's now seeking asylum. And he spoke exclusively with CNN's Anderson Cooper about what he experienced and why he chose to defect.

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ANDREI MEDVEDEV, FORMER WAGNER COMMANDER (through translator): I plan to leave Wagner for a while, but I didn't have the opportunity. I was afraid I will be captured and shot as a traitor. I am ready for serious action. But I also want to live. By the end, I knew they won't let me go. I will return as part of the dead or the wounded. It was time to make a radical decision. If it wasn't for my guys, my comrades, I would have been buried at some training ground.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You escaped into Norway. And the spot where you crossed over, where you said that you crossed over into Norway, it's very heavily guarded on the Russian border. And some people have raised questions about how you were able to even get to the border because it's so heavily -- there's so many checkpoints on the way there. Why cross at that place where it was so heavily guarded? MEDVEDEV (through translator): I will say that the border with Norway where I crossed is not as protected as much as the border with Finland. But in this case, I am honestly very grateful for the training I received with the Ministry of Russian defense where I did military service and grateful to Wagner. The training I received there came in useful and I gladly put it to use.

COOPER: Did you have help getting across? Because aren't there many checkpoints even to get close to the border?

MEDVEDEV (through translator): I was helped by workers of human rights groups in Moscow and elsewhere. Even just civilians who heard my story. When I was approaching the last post next to the border, I was helped by a man from Murmansk, who found a passport of a man who looked similar to me. I am very grateful to him, but cannot disclose his identity for his safety. The passport helps me to get past the control post and I was able to get closer to the border.

COOPER: Why have you agreed to talk? Why do you -- what message are you trying to -- want people to know about Wagner, about your experience?

MEDVEDEV (through translator): My idea was to tell the people what was happening there, and my mates who died there. They died under orders. So, my aim is that the people who are guilty of these crimes should be brought to justice.

COOPER: And when you say the people who are guilty, who do you mean, and what are they guilty of?

MEDVEDEV: You know, I would like to take this opportunity of stating publicly, maybe other folks have different views about this. But the first culprit is Prigozhin because he is the top leader.

COOPER: Prigozhin runs the Wagner group. He's in charge of it.

MEDVDEV (through translator): Yes, him absolutely. And the whole coordinating Wagner lot, and everyone knows it's subject to the Russian government's commands, the whole lot of them.

COOPER: Does that include Vladimir Putin?

MEDVEDEV (through translator): Well, everyone knows that what is happening there is his decision. Of course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Medvedev also told Anderson Cooper he saw courage on both sides of the war, including among Ukrainian forces.

New Zealand was already reeling from record rainfall and flooding over the weekend. Now residents are being told to brace for another storm. I'll speak to a climate researcher in Wellington coming up.

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CHURCH: The global economy is looking slightly less gloomy this year than in previous forecasts. According to the International Monetary Fund, the IMF now projects a nearly three percent growth in 2023, just a few percentage points higher than predicted last year. It's by no means a strong year of growth, but the new numbers show some promise. The IMF says China's sudden reopening after scrapping its zero-COVID policies has paved the way for the rapid rebound, especially given the resilience of multiple countries in the second half of 2022. The IMF's chief economist says a large demand for workers in some of the world's biggest economies is keeping numbers in the positive no matter how small that growth can be. CNN's Richard Quest spoke with Pierre-Oliver Gourinchas, about the IMF's new forecast.

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PIERRE-OLIVER GOURINCHAS, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, IMF: This year 2023, and next year we're going to have relatively low growth numbers to start with. So, this year in particular 2.9 percent, this is not a super high number. But you're right, that this has been revised upwards. And this is the first time in quite a while that we've had sort of good news in that -- in that sense.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Are you surprised that after so many interest rate hikes with such ferocity and speed that the economy's all withstanding the shock of the monetary tightening? I mean, to have this level of tightening, and still be registering this sort of growth, is remarkable.

GOURINCHAS: The economy has been very resilient, not just in the U.S. also in other parts of the world including the European economies, many of them have been quite resilient. And you're right, so, there have been this massive tightening. Now, why has it been so resilient with one point is -- well, I've already mentioned the labor market, we're coming out of the pandemic and crisis of the last two years. And there is an enormous demand for labor, and -- that some of that demand is not yet met in the U.S.

QUEST: So --

GOURINCHAS: And we still have very elevated levels of vacancies. And then on top of that, households have accumulated a lot of savings through this last two years thanks to policy, and also thanks to the -- you know --

QUEST: Right.

GOURINCHAS: -- precautionary behavior. And they're looking to spend some of that. So, that's supporting the economy.

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CHURCH: And, you can see Richard Quest's full interview with the IMF director of research later today on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" at 8:00 p.m. in London, 3:00 p.m. in New York. And still to come, how a Nigerian artist is using artificial intelligence to prove that style has no age limits?

[02:35:00]

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CHURCH: Parts of New Zealand's North Island are already feeling the impact of a new storm system. This, as the country tries to clean up from record rain over the weekend, more thunder and rain are forecast through Wednesday. And as the new storm approaches at least four people are reported dead after dangerous flooding and landslides. Prime Minister Chris Hipkins calls this a one-in-a-hundred-year weather event that he attributes to climate change.

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CHRIS HIPKINS, NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER: Climate change is real, it's with us, it's having an impact on our weather. We are seeing more of these extreme weather events, we're going to have to deal with more of these extreme weather events in the near future. We need to be prepared for this. And we need to do everything that we can to combat the challenge of climate change.

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CHURCH: And for more on this story, I'm joining by James Renwick. He is a Professor of Physical Geography at Victoria University of Wellington. Thank you, Professor, for joining us.

JAMES RENWICK, PHYSICAL GEOGRAPHY PROFESSOR, VICTORIA UNIVERSITY OF WELLINGTON: Hi, and thank you for the invitation to speak.

CHURCH: So, more heavy rain is forecast in parts of New Zealand already dealing with major flooding and landslides after days of torrential rain. Prime Minister -- Prime Minister Hipkins, says that these floods are a result of climate change. Do you agree with that assessment?

RENWICK: Well, I'm sure that the intensity of the rainfall and floods is partly due to climate change. Climate change doesn't cause storms to happen, they've always been going on. But a warmer climate has more moisture in it, so, you tend to get heavier rain when it falls. So, in that sense, yes, climate change played a role, for sure.

CHURCH: And, Prime Minister Hipkins also says that New Zealand needs to be prepared for more of these extreme weather events. You have written about this saying, one way to prepare is to adapt the country's stormwater drain system. What is the best way to do that? And should other nations be considering this, do you think?

RENWICK: Well, that is one part of the response. I think if you don't have big enough drains, then the water is going to run over the ground rather than be channeled away. But I think that there are other options as well, just changing the nature of the land surface. And I think this was seen -- I think it was in Houston or Dallas with the big flooding there. There was so much concrete and asphalt, the water didn't have anywhere to go. And it was the same story in Auckland really, we don't have a lot of open space in the -- in the city. We could have exposed streams instead of streams and culverts, we could have wetlands, green spaces, more trees planted. And that allows the rain when it falls on the ground to be soaked up more readily, and so less of it flows down the road. So, those kinds of urban planning responses are at least as important as the size of the drains. But I think we have to do all of these things because it's true that these heavy rains will only get heavier as the climate warms up. And we're going to see more of this kind of grief in Auckland and around the country as time goes on.

CHURCH: Yes, it is an interesting concept, isn't it? Because you talk about the fact that we should be preparing infrastructure for the next 50 years, and it needs to be working in with these extreme weather events.

[02:39:55]

RENWICK: Well, exactly, I think I said that the -- the stormwater infrastructure was built for the climate we had 50 years ago. We've already got a different climate, and it will be different, more different than 50 years from now. So, yes, we need to be thinking about what the future will look like. And it's not going to look like the past. So, if a council for instance, is digging up the drains for some reason been putting in bigger drains is a very sensible thing to do. And I know that some of the regional authorities are already doing this. We need to be consistent around the country, and make sure that we're taking this kind of action, when it makes sense and where it makes sense.

CHURCH: And of course, as you have been speaking with us, we've been looking at images from across Auckland, it's just extraordinary. Talk to us about the impact these floods and landslides have had on New Zealand's largest city, Auckland, how people are dealing with this?

RENWICK: Yes, well, it was extraordinary. I mean, I was watching images on social media on Friday, as this event unfolded, and I was amazed. I've never seen anything like it. In any New Zealand city, I (INAUDIBLE) so, it was really remarkable. And hundreds of houses were damaged, a lot of roads, infrastructure were damaged. And I think there's -- I don't know, a few dozen houses that are going to have to be pulled down and possibly rebuilt somewhere else. So, you know, even the international airport had to be closed because of water in the terminal, and water on the runway, something again, I've never seen before. I've been through that airport many times, and there's never been a problem. So, just the intensity of the rain, really, got on top of all of the infrastructure, and it'll be months if not years before some of the damage is repaired.

CHURCH: And we're looking at people wading through this water. I mean, in some instances, it's up to people's shoulders. How long will it likely take for these waters to subside, to find another location?

RENWICK: Well, I'm not exactly sure, but I think a lot of the water has subsided, although as you say, there's another event -- another rain event happening in the Auckland region now and through tomorrow. So, there'll be more water to drain away very soon. But I think it is just the question of time, and it's been a few days now since the big rainfall event last Friday, and I think a lot of the water has drained away.

CHURCH: All right, Professor James Renwick in Willington. Many thanks for joining us, appreciate it.

RENWICK: Sure.

CHURCH: A Nigerian artist is generating buzz with his computer- generated works. Malik Afegbua used three different artificial intelligence programs to create a series he calls fashion show for seniors. It depicts grey-haired men and women modeling on a catwalk, which is something the artist said he has never seen. He did it to challenge perceptions around aging because he says many elderly people have been marginalized in society. The images have gotten hundreds of thousands of likes on social media, and for good reason. They look great.

Well, as NASA orbiter turned its camera towards Mars, here's what they found looking back. The face of a bear, a circular fracture pattern on the Martian surface shapes the head, while two craters resemble eyes, with a V-shaped collapse structure completing the illusion with a nose. The University of Arizona which developed the camera shared the image last week. Great stuff. Thanks for joining us. I'm Rosemary Church. "WORLD SPORT" is coming up next. Then, I'll be back in 15 minutes with more CNN NEWSROOM. Do stick around.

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