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CNN One-On-One Interview With Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu; Blinken Reiterates Support For Two-State Solution; Netanyahu Defends Far-Right Members Of His Government. Aired 2:25-3a ET

Aired February 01, 2023 - 02:25   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[02:25:50]

CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says people can get hung up on peace talks with the Palestinians. But he's banking on his past approach of pursuing peace with Israel's Arab neighbors first hoping that will lead to a workable peace with the Palestinians. His comments come in an exclusive interview with CNN's Jake Tapper. As tensions between Israel and the Palestinians are running high right now.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken paid a visit to the region to try to bring down the temperature. And joining me now from Jerusalem. Yaakov Katz is the editor-in-chief of the Jerusalem Post. And from London, Daniel Levy is the president of the U.S./Middle East project. Welcome to you both.

So, in CNN's exclusive interview with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, did you get any sense from what he said and indeed, his actions so far that Mr. Netanyahu is willing to deescalate violence in the region or commit to a two-state solution as the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken called for during his visit to the Middle East. Daniel Levy, to you first.

DANIEL LEVY, PRESIDENT, U.S./MIDDLE EAST PROJECT: De-escalation. Absolutely. His problem on de-escalation is primarily his own coalition. But then we have to understand what does de-escalation mean. That means a return to calm for Jewish-Israelis, a return to permanent occupation, no freedom, no rights, no dignity, no political horizon for the future for Palestinians. So, it's not such an attractive proposition on that side.

Of course, being able to continue occupation with no cost is great for Israel. On two states, Netanyahu was quite clear. He wouldn't endorse the term. Netanyahu gave us a vision of -- actually a Bantustan. Unfortunately, what we heard from Netanyahu is a commitment to apartheid as has been noted by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International as the regime that predominates in the areas controlled by Israel. So those were the contrast in what he offered us.

CHURCH: Yaakov Katz, is de-escalation of violence or a commitment to a two-state solution likely to happen under Mr. Netanyahu's leadership? YAAKOV KATZ, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE JERUSALEM POST: Well, I think we're looking at two different things. On the one hand, there's the de- escalation of violence. We saw horrific massacre outside a synagogue on Friday nights and then another subsequent terrorist attack outside the old city walls of Jerusalem on Saturday morning. So, as terrorism continues and Israel finds itself having to go into some of these Palestinian-controlled areas like it did in the West Bank and a city called Jenin this past Thursday to root out a terrorist or those planning a massive terrorist attack.

So that violence, unfortunately, will continue. But I would say that the ball is on the side of the court of the Palestinians to stop that terrorism. But I think that I wouldn't expect Netanyahu with the current makeup and character of his coalition to be making any big moves. That would be of the size that Antony Blinken, the Secretary of State would have wanted to see. Right. He is not going to endorse the two-state solution, that's not possible today in the political environment here in Israel and with the makeup of his coalition.

And let's also be honest, for a moment after about three decades of Israel trying together with the Palestinians to reach a resolution, starting with the Oslo Accords in the 90s until we are today in 2023. This hasn't worked and we can point fingers at who's to blame, but maybe it is time for a new out of the box approach that hasn't been tried yet.

CHURCH: And Mr. Netanyahu now leads what's probably the most far right government in Israel's history. His proposal to reform the justice system triggering massive protests in the country. Many concerned it could threaten Israel's democracy. But in his CNN interview, Mr. Netanyahu seems to suggest he is open to negotiations on his controversial proposal to allow a simple majority vote in parliament to overrule Israel Supreme Court.

Do you believe he'll negotiate on this, Daniel Levy?

LEVY: I think that's conceivable. The part of the reform that is worrying to many Israelis is not just about this override clause of a simple majority that you refer to, Rosemary, it's also how judges are selected.

[02:30:01]

But I think the struggle here is to wrap one's head around the idea that, yes, the idea of a Jewish Democratic state sounds like those things can be harmonious. But in reality, what you have is a system which privileges one ethnoreligious group. And that's why I think from the outside, I find the emphasis by the administration on this question to be somewhat strange, and I think in this respect, the Israeli government is right in saying this is a domestic situation, you worry about your democracy.

What America should be focused on, is where Israel violates -- where Israel violates international law? Where Israel violates U.N. Security Council resolutions? How Israel uses American weapons, and aid, and taxpayer money, to maintain a permanent occupation? And I think the problem for America is not Israel's judicial reform. But when you're trying to rally the round -- world around Ukraine, for instance, you have in one place, you're supporting the resistors to occupation and annexation. And then the other place you're arming and supporting those who are carrying out the occupation and the annexation.

There is no such thing as security. There's no such thing as defeating terrorism if that's the word some would use when you permanently disenfranchise and deny the rights of another people. Palestinians aren't celebrating a culture of death, which is the term that Netanyahu used, any more than black South Africans were raising their arms to resist apartheid, or Ukrainians today try and resist the Russian invasion.

CHURCH: Yaakov Katz, your response to that.

KATZ: And just like Palestinians weren't issuing -- and just like some Palestinians weren't celebrating on the streets on Friday night, after seven Israelis were gunned down outside the synagogue in northern Jerusalem. You know, listen, Daniel Levy, I have respect for --

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: I condemn that. We will not have security alongside occupation and (INAUDIBLE)

KATZ: -- is long have been obsessed with putting all the blame on Israel, for what he calls the occupation and apartheid and the tool duel (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: (INAUDIBLE) international legal --

CHURCH: Let's try not to talk over each other because it's difficult for our viewers to work out what's being said. Yaakov Katz if you can just continue with your point.

KATZ: Yes, I just think -- I think at the end of the day, we have a conflict that's been going on for decades, right? And Rosemary, as we all know, and we've spoken about in the past, this is a conflict that both sides have tried to come to the table, they've tried to come with concessions, and unfortunately, there's always some sort of escalation or an outbreak of violence. Unfortunately, that's what we've been seeing in recent weeks here in Israel. I think that, of course, Israel would want there not to be violence, right?

I think that if there weren't terrorist attacks on the other side, it would be a bigger question for Israel. OK, now that there is no terror, there's no celebration of deaths and murders of Israelis, there's no salaries that are being paid to these Palestinian territories. These two Palestinians who carried out these attacks Friday night and Saturday morning, their families are now going to get paid a stipend from Palestinian authority President Mahmoud Abbas, for the rest of their lives, essentially. Because they, one case, murdered seven Israelis, in another case, tried to murder Israelis. So, that is a culture of violence, a celebration of death. And as long as that continues, this prospect or this vision that somehow all Israel has to do is end the -- the so-called occupation, that will end this conflict. That's a pipedream.

CHURCH: All right, I think we have to be careful getting caught. There is violence on both sides here. And we really want to focus on the big picture here because Israel's Prime Minister, also said he doesn't want people to get hung up on peace talks with the Palestinians. Instead, he wants to focus first on peace with Israel's other Arab neighbors. What is your reaction to that approach? Daniel?

LEVY: Let's be clear, one, and I want to state this before referencing what you asked, Rosemary. That of course, one condemns terrible. One has to understand that an occupying power, and an occupied people is a simple equation. Until people can get their heads around that, they won't understand this conflict. Prime Minister Netanyahu did something remarkable when he was last Prime Minister. Of course, he needed the Trump administration to bribe the Moroccan government on Western Sahara and to the -- offer the Sudanese government a way out of sanctions in order to bring those two on board. But with the Gulf states, he did something which was to bring them in to an arrangement with Israel.

The idea that this was peacemaking is a little far-fetched because these countries had never so much has raised a finger in anger against each other. So, he wasn't making peace with warring enemies, what he was trying to do was marginalize the Palestinian question. He did that to a certain extent. We saw in the World Cup in Qatar, just how much the Arab public -- they had their say in that event, just how much they are committed to do the Palestinian cause. We saw the Moroccan national team waving the Palestinian flag, but one shouldn't be surprised at these arrangements.

[02:34:59]

Because what binds these countries is an opposition to democratic expression inside the Arab world of this support for the Palestinian. So, it's an authoritarian counter-revolutionary access, but what it didn't solve is the problem that Israel has in terms of its control of the Palestinians, its denial of their very basic rights. That is what threatens the future fabric security existence of a possibly democratic Israel, not what whether it -- NSO is selling cyber intelligence spyware to the United Arab Emirates.

CHURCH: Yaakov, your reaction to that?

KATZ: The -- I have no idea what that ending was about NSO. But I will just say, what -- again, we go back in time to the mid-90s, when Israel and -- Israel's Yitzhak Rabin, the Palestinian Yasser Arafat, Bill Clinton in the middle, signed the Oslo Accords at the White House. Everyone thought this was the beginning of a new era. We're 30 years later, and we're still embroiled in this conflict. I think that what Netanyahu did and what he spoke about in the CNN interview with Jake Tapper, is that what we have to try is a new model, right?

We've tried for years sitting down, concessions, we'll release prisoners, we'll pull out of this city, we'll pull out of that city, we'll do security coordination. It's not working, it's not working, and both sides are at fault, no doubt. But that's not working. So, let's try.

CHURCH: So, what's the new -- what's the better approach? What's the better approach?

KATZ: So, let's try to work from the outside in. We'll bring Arab countries like the United Arab Emirates, like Bahrain, like Morocco, like Sudan, potentially Saudi Arabia, potentially Oman and more. Bringing them to the table, show the Palestinians that there's a different model, that normalization can reap benefits for both countries as we're seeing right now. Look at the amazing ties that Israel has with these Gulf States. They are a model for how peace can exist also here in this land between two people that have been stuck in conflict for so long. And I would wish that both of us, both the Israelis and the Palestinians will be able to look at the model of this new Abraham Accords era and reality, and apply that to the conflict that we have here.

CHURCH: All right, we'll see whether that works. Sir Yakoov Katz.

LEVY: Can I speak?

CHURCH: Daniel Levy, we'll have to leave it there. Many thanks.

KATZ: Thank you.

LEVY: Thank you.

CHURCH: Well, still to come, the battle for Bakhmut ahead. The latest details on the fighting around this key Ukrainian city. We're back with that and more in just a moment.

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CHURCH: In Eastern Ukraine, intense fighting is ongoing across the Donetsk Region as Ukrainian forces battle Russian troops for control of key cities. Ukraine says the situation remains difficult in several areas, including in Vuhledar and in the city of Bakhmut. There, Ukraine says forces have managed to destroy Russian trenches on the outskirts of the city. Still, one official says attacks by Russian troops are turning Bakhmut into a total ruin.

[02:40:16]

And as the fighting rages, Ukraine is renewing its call to allies to send fighter jets in addition to long-range missiles. And CNN's Scott McLean is following developments for us. He joins us live from London. Good morning to you, Scott. So, Ukraine wants those fighter jets and long-range missiles, but the West says, no, they won't be providing those particular weapons. However, the much-needed battle tanks are on the way. What is the latest on this, and of course, other weapon requirements?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ukraine's wish list, Rosemary, is a long one. And it seems that it is constantly expanding. Of course, the West says that there are limits to what it's willing to send. But well, that also seems to be changing and expanding all the time as well. First, it was the HIMARS systems, then it was the missile defense systems, and most recently, it was tanks. And so now that Ukraine has those or at least commitments to have all of those, the foreign minister says that the priority of his diplomats in western capitals is to lobby for, as you said, fighter jets and also long-range missiles that can strike targets up to 300 kilometers away.

That kind of a range though would allow the Ukrainians to easily strike targets inside of Russian territory, not Russian-held territory in Ukraine, but Russia itself. And of course, one of the chief concerns with sending any weapons systems from the West is that they could inflame or escalate the conflict. Though the Ukrainians continue to insist that look, these would merely be for defense and for deterrence.

And it's not just fighter jets, it's not just missile systems, they are also trying to get more of the weapons that they've already gotten from Western allies. For instance, France, just committed to sending more of its howitzer artillery systems to Ukraine. France is also one of 12 countries that have committed to sending tanks which is pretty incredible, Rosemary, when you consider that it was just three weeks ago today, that Poland became the very first country to actually agree to send tanks to Ukraine. Here's what the foreign minister said about the numbers on the way to his country so far. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): I can note that in the first wave of contributions, the Ukrainian Armed Forces will receive between 120 and 140 Western model tanks. This is not a low number. But we continue to work on both expanding the membership of the tank coalition and increasing the contributions of those already pledged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: And Rosemary, in terms of fighter jets, look, the door is not completely closed. Of course, the U.S., Germany, they said pretty firmly no, but no was also the answer that Ukraine gotten a lot of weapons of their weapons systems. And those countries have since come around.

CHURCH: All right, many thanks to Scott McLean, joining us live from London. And we have this just into CNN, authorities in Australia have recovered a radioactive capsule that's been missing for the past six days. They found it on a remote highway in Western Australia. The capsule was discovered missing from a package sent from a mining site near the city of Perth, prompting a massive search. Authorities think it fell off the back of a truck. And thank you so much for joining us. I'm Rosemary Church. "WORLD SPORT" is coming up next. Then I'll be back in about 15 minutes with more CNN NEWSROOM. Do stick around.

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