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U.S. Shoots Down Suspected Spy Balloon; Technical Failure Cuts Power to Much of Odessa; Over 28 Million in Afghanistan Will Need Humanitarian Support in 2023; Chile Wildfires. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired February 05, 2023 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hello and welcome. Coming to you live from Studio 4 at the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Michael Holmes.
Coming up, the suspected Chinese spy balloon's journey ended by a single missile by a U.S. fighter jet.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just shot it.
See the smoke coming from it?
HOLMES (voice-over): Recovery efforts underway at this hour. The incident heightening already tense relations between Washington and Beijing.
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HOLMES (voice-over): And we have all of the angles covered right here. Oren Liebermann has the view from Pentagon. We have reports from the White House and our Ivan Watson is live in Hong Kong with China's angry response.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Center, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Michael Holmes.
HOLMES: We are about to show you the dramatic moment a U.S. Sidewinder missile took out that suspected Chinese spy balloon that caused such havoc this week. The balloon was so high up, nearly 12 miles or 20 kilometers, that it took a few seconds for the shock wave the reach the ground. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES (voice-over): The shootdown happened Saturday off the coast of South Carolina near Myrtle Beach. It was a sensational ending to a saga that had been unfolding for days, as the giant craft drifted silently above the American heartland.
China loudly protesting the shootdown, accusing the U.S. of overreacting. Beijing continues to insist it was merely a civilian scientific balloon that blew off course.
After studying its movements and patterns for several days, Pentagon officials say they're confident it was conducting surveillance. For now, many answers will have to wait until the balloon and its payload are recovered and analyzed.
At last report we're told the wreckage is lying on the ocean floor about 50 feet down, about 15 meters. And salvage efforts are underway. U.S. President Joe Biden said he issued the order to shoot down the balloon last Wednesday as soon as possible. Here he is.
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JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On Wednesday, when I was briefed on the balloon, I ordered the Pentagon to shoot it down on Wednesday as soon as possible.
They decided -- without doing damage to anyone on the ground. They decided that the best time to do that was, as it got over water, outside -- within our -- within the 12-mile limit.
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HOLMES: CNN's Oren Liebermann explains what the U.S. plans to do with what's left of the balloon.
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OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: What has been an effort to track this Chinese surveillance balloon for days, as it made its way across the United States and out over the ocean, is now a recovery effort to bring up the wreckage of the Chinese surveillance balloon and the payload it was carrying from the ocean floor.
Not all that deep, according to the Pentagon, a senior Defense official said the wreckage landed in 47 feet of water, so relatively shallow there. And there were Navy and Coast Guard assets onsite to begin establishing a perimeter and a salvage vessel on its way to start bringing up the wreckage.
It may be difficult to see what's left; it did fall from a height of 60,000 feet, nearly 12 miles, and impacted the water. That may have done serious damage to the technology on board.
That's what the Pentagon and the U.S. government will figure out, what condition it's in, what is salvageable, what can you learn from this and what can you glean about the state of Chinese technology and what they put on the surveillance balloon. A senior Defense official said it didn't just start now; over the
course of the last several day, the Pentagon made an effort to make sure this balloon couldn't gather as much information as they were looking for.
They wouldn't detail exactly what those efforts entailed; instead, they tried to flip the scrip, monitoring the balloon constantly and trying to learn what they could about it as it traversed the United States.
In terms of what went into this beforehand, there were days of planning to figure out what was the best time to shoot it down. In fact, it was decided not to shoot it down over the continental United States because of the risk to people and property.
Instead the decision was made to shoot it down over the water.
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LIEBERMANN: The Pentagon and Northern Command launched F-22s from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia as well as support aircraft, F-15s and tankers.
In the end, it was a single F-22 that fired a single AIM-9 Sidewinder, a short-range heat seeking missile, that pierces the balloon, one shot, one kill, bringing down the surveillance balloon as it made its way across the U.S.
That's the military side. The diplomatic side as well, the U.S. making it very clear they found this unacceptable and considered a violation of U.S. airspace and now we have seen the military's response -- Oren Liebermann, CNN, at the Pentagon.
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HOLMES: CNN's Ivan Watson is standing by in Hong Kong with the latest from there.
China is saying U.S. is overreacting, violating international practice. A lot of people saying how so, when it was flying over U.S. territory. You imagine China would have brought down a U.S. balloon over its territory.
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's hard to see what kind of a leg the Chinese government has to stand on here, Michael.
On Friday, the Chinese foreign ministry surprised a lot of people when it announced that it regretted the fact that what it described as an air -- as a balloon, effectively, used primarily for research, flew off course and it was working with the U.S. to deal with this.
Now after you've seen the F-22 shoot down the balloon off the coast of South Carolina, the Chinese foreign ministry changed its tune to anger. Take a look at this. Quote, "China expresses its strong dissatisfaction and protests
against the U.S. use of force to attack unmanned civilian aircraft. The Chinese side has repeatedly informed the U.S. side after verification that the airship is for civilian use and entered the U.S. due to force majeure. It was completely an accident."
There are a lot of questions here, though.
Which company or branch of the Chinese government did this balloon come from?
As you rightly pointed out, what would China have done if a U.S. balloon or drone was just kind of drifting through Chinese airspace, forcing the grounding of commercial air traffic periodically for days at a time?
The Chinese government frequently accuses the U.S. of violating its own sovereignty when warships are operating in international waters in the South China Sea.
This was directly over U.S. airspace, visible to the naked eye of ordinary Americanism citizens for days. It's going to be very interesting to see how China tries to explain the existence of this balloon in the days to come.
HOLMES: Absolutely.
I wonder, is anything being said about the reported second balloon over Latin America?
WATSON: We have reached out to the Chinese government in writing, asking about this, because we have sightings now from aviation officials in Costa Rica and from the Colombian air force, which put out this statement in Spanish, of course, saying they're also seeing an object that looks like a balloon.
The Colombians saying it's above 50,000 feet, which is similar to the altitude at which the balloon over the U.S. was operating, and that it's being monitored. It does not represent a threat to national security and defense at this time.
We have senior Biden administration officials telling CNN that they believe that this also is a suspected surveillance balloon from China.
So that raises more questions, what is Beijing going to say about this?
Will it concede it is also one of its own aircraft?
And how is it going to explain, if that is true, why these things are flying over other countries' sovereign airspace?
It's hard not to see this as being somewhat embarrassing to the Chinese government right now. I would be -- I would pay a lot of money to be in the halls of power, to see who might be getting yelled at right now for this remarkable display involving these suspected balloons now.
HOLMES: Yes, yes, and the timing of it as well. Ivan, appreciate the reporting there.
Ivan Watson in Hong Kong for us.
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HOLMES: Douglas London is a former senior CIA operations officer. He's also the author of "The Recruiter: Spying and the Lost Art of American Intelligence," somebody well equipped to have this discussion.
Good to see you, Doug.
What are U.S. and military intelligence officials going to be looking for now that the balloon's payload is down?
How valuable might that payload be in an intel sense?
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DOUGLAS LONDON, FORMER CIA OPERATIONS OFFICER: Well, the equipment they discover is going to allow them to do the forensics and deconstruct what the Chinese were collecting, what sort of equipment they had.
It will be questionable in terms of the take what they actually get but it will give them a sense of the equipment.
The ability for Chinese to use aerial devices like this is pretty much significant if you think about it. Imagine 120 feet -- that's like three buses in length -- and imagine what we put on these unmanned aircraft, these reconnaissance craft.
Now consider the amount of forward motion video, radars, environmental samplers that can be looking for chemicals, signals collection pods. It's an array of equipment that has a great opportunity to collect, that's at relatively low altitude compared to satellites.
HOLMES: The U.S. said that they assessed it would have limited added value from an intelligence perspective compared to satellites.
Why do it, then?
Were they looking for different things, communication intercepts, perhaps?
LONDON: You think about their ability to register callers that are associated with sensitive military installations, they could start building up a log of what phone numbers operate there, who the phone numbers belong to.
And that allows for operational targeting and also operational and intelligence analysis. So besides the ability to perhaps actually collect conversations, which is possible, they're certainly at least collecting numbers and registrations.
They're also able to loiter over important installations, is of great significance because satellites are always moving. And even when we use UAs, unmanned aircraft, they have to circle. Here's something that's pretty much on station and the information is a significant complement to that which they're acquiring by satellite.
HOLMES: The U.S. did know this thing was coming.
What would be the U.S. capability to block it from doing what it was doing?
LONDON: There is some capability if you think about the jamming ability we have, where we put up our aircraft to try to jam enemy radars. So without getting into details, there's some capacity there. I just don't know that we could exactly block everything that might be getting relayed in real time back to China.
HOLMES: Interesting. To broaden out the issue, just how big is the Chinese spy machine in terms of its breadth and capability?
This is sort of what you did for a living.
LONDON: It's fairly massive and I'll tell you why. You don't just have the principal intelligence services, the ministry state security, their civilian service, and what we call 2PLA, the People's Liberation Army, Second Department. It's now called the Intelligence Bureau.
But beyond that, it's sort of a cottage industry in China. They use every ministry, every aspect of Chinese society, public and private, to collect intelligence. You've probably seen in the press, reports of civilians from various agricultural institutes in China, getting arrested for stealing seeds.
Their industrial espionage program alone is absolutely massive. So it's different in terms of how we operate, even different in terms of how the Russians operate, because they really go for a lot of quantity and they're addressing not just strategic intelligence but industrial espionage, cyber activity, influence activity. It's quite an operation.
HOLMES: There have been intel reports of so-called unidentified aerial phenomena, which could well be aerial surveillance of some kind. The Pentagon's already said there have been these kinds of balloons before.
I guess it's fair to say, the average person, whatever country they're in, have no idea what's being done above their heads.
But how common do you think cutting edge technology is being used surreptitiously overhead?
LONDON: Well, I don't know how surreptitious it is. I think in this case, certainly the Chinese made it very unsurreptitious by (INAUDIBLE) these platforms have the capacity to maneuver, limited as it is. Certainly if they really wanted to, they could bring it down if they
had to in a peaceful way. But it's possible this was a version of reciprocity for their perception of us flying in space that we consider international waters in and around Taiwan but they consider their territory.
So there might have been a bit of messaging here as well. And certainly equipment that, you know, they could take a risk on losing, in a worst case, because, as you said, the Pentagon report shows that these balloons, they're not unusual.
They just generally stay outside of our borders and if you look at the track of this, it managed to fly totally around Russia, over the water. And only when it got to the continental United States, it suddenly made landfall. So I don't think that's coincidental.
HOLMES: Yes, good point. Thank you for the analysis. Thank you.
LONDON: Thank you, Michael.
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HOLMES: Quick break. When we come back, the balloon that went across the U.S. is now underwater. When we come back, we'll take a closer look at the efforts to retrieve its payload.
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HOLMES: We'll be right back.
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HOLMES: Welcome back to CNN NEWSROOM, a quick recap of our top story.
The U.S. has shot down a suspected Chinese spy balloon over the Atlantic Ocean after it drifted across America for several days. Onlookers near the coast captured the moment it was struck by a single missile from a fighter jet.
One official says debris from the large balloon and the platform it was carrying landed in about 47 feet of water. That's about 15 meters and that should make it fairly easy to recover the debris.
The operation was approved by President Biden earlier in the week but authorities wanted to carry it out after the balloon was safely over water and away from civilians.
A South Carolina man witnessed the moment the balloon was shot down near Myrtle Beach on Saturday afternoon. Local photographer Travis Huffstetler said he saw what appeared to be a missile strike from the 15th floor of a hotel.
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TRAVIS HUFFSTETLER, PHOTOGRAPHER: I come out to get video and photos of it and I didn't realize that they were going to shoot it down until almost right before it happened.
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HUFFSTETLER: And you could see the rocket or whatever it was that they shot from the plane.
You could see it start to separate from the plane and, as soon as it hit the balloon, you could hear a pop. I couldn't get it on video. I can't catch it actually hitting it. But you just seen the balloon just kind of explode. And you know, it just popped.
And like above, it was like confetti. I mean it just looked like confetti and the rest of it just collapsed and just started like floating down. I'm not sure how fast it went. But it looked like it was falling pretty slow, honestly.
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HOLMES: Divers from the U.S. Navy are working to recovery the debris of the suspected spy balloon from the Atlantic. Sources telling CNN it will then be taken to the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, for analysis. CNN's Tom Foreman with more on what they will be doing.
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TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the portion of this balloon investigators want to get their hands on, the payload, central core and what looked like a couple of solar arrays on either side.
When the balloon was destroyed, you could clearly see it falling away below. Now if this had the mass of a human, like a sky diver, it might be falling at 100-150 miles an hour, something like that.
If it had the mass of a couple of cars, its terminal velocity might have been more like 500 miles an hour or up from that. What that means is, when it got to this area just off Myrtle Beach, the water would be essentially like concrete.
It would hit it with tremendous force and be absolutely misshapen, torn apart and broken up by this impact.
What does that mean to recovery?
What it means is the first thing they have to do when they get settled out there, to get divers down, 47 feet down, that's good. That's a good, workable depth. There they have to look at this, figure out how many pieces it's in, where they are, assess it, figure out if some of it is buried down in the muck below.
And then come up with a list of priorities.
What do they want to bring up first? How do they want to bring it up to protect all of this as much as they can?
And how long will it take?
These operations typically are longer than most people expect, even though they believe this one could be pretty fast. Think of it this way: this is like an underwater crime scene now and they have to protect their evidence as best they can if they want to learn all they can about this balloon.
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HOLMES: Tom Foreman there for us.
U.S.-China relations are suffering one of the most bruising disputes in recent memory. As more is learned about the downed Chinese balloon, the political implications could be significant for the White House. We'll discuss with Ron Brownstein after the break.
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HOLMES: After drifting silently for days above the American heartland and causing a great deal of consternation on the ground, a U.S. fighter jet blew a suspected Chinese spy balloon out of the sky on Saturday.
The balloon had finally drifted out over the Atlantic when President Biden's standing order to shoot it down was executed. The U.S. Navy and Coast Guard are actually looking to salvage it and its payload from about 50 feet or 15 meters of water off the coast of South Carolina.
Those materials will then be take on a FBI lab for analysis. President Biden said he approved the plan to shoot down the balloon down earlier this week. He says the Pentagon wanted to wait until it was over water in order to avoid damage to anyone on the ground. CNN's Arlette Saenz with the details from the White House.
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ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: President Biden told his top military leaders on Wednesday to shoot down the Chinese spy balloon transiting over the U.S. as soon as possible.
The president heard advice from military leaders, who warned that shooting anything down over land, over ground, could pose a risk to American lives. So ultimately the president heeded their advice and waited to have this balloon shot down until it was over the waters on Saturday afternoon. President Biden was briefed on those final plans Friday evening and
ultimately Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin gave that final go-ahead shortly after noon on Saturday. The president was flying on Air Force One from Syracuse, New York, to Maryland and was on the phone with his top officials as this operation was underway.
Here's what he had to tell reporters about the considerations given.
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BIDEN: On Wednesday, when I was briefed on the balloon, I ordered the Pentagon to shoot it down on Wednesday as soon as possible.
They decided -- without doing damage to anyone on the ground. They decided that the best time to do that was, as it got over water, outside -- within our -- within the 12-mile limit.
They successfully took it down. And I want to complement our aviators who did it. And we'll have more to report on this a little later.
Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, what does this say about China?
What's your message to China?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were saying the recommendation from your -- was from your national security --
BIDEN: I told them to shoot it down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Wednesday?
BIDEN: On Wednesday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the recommendation from them --
BIDEN: They said to me, "Let's wait until the safest place to do it."
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SAENZ: Republicans were quick to criticize the president for not taking it down sooner. They said it's a sign of weakness. The White House pushed back, saying this was a responsible action for the president to take. He was trying to save American lives. There are lawmakers on both sides of the aisle calling for briefings and hearings in this matter.
The so-called Gang of Eight will receive official information from the president next week as there are so many outstanding questions about how this unfolded. Arlette Saenz, CNN, the White House.
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HOLMES: Let's discuss more with our senior political analyst Ron Brownstein, also senior editor of "The Atlantic." Good to see you, Ron.
Politically, what does President Biden do now?
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HOLMES: Is this a political gift or a burden?
How does he handle this domestically, politically, diplomatically and so on?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think diplomatically, it is going to be an issue. It's just another turn of the screw in the several-year process we've seen, of both parties moving toward more skepticism of China and harder line positions toward China.
But I think in domestic politics, the impact is likely pretty slight over time. A lot of things can go wrong between now and 2024 for President Biden. But the idea there's a meaningful number of voters who would really otherwise be open to voting for him are going to conclude that he doesn't deserve a second term because he waited so long to shoot down a Chinese balloon. Seems to me kind of a small number there.
What it will do is provide today's fodder for the kind of the outrage machine that Republicans will have going full-time, 24/7, between now and November 2024.
HOLMES: Yes. Yes. Even though we now know these balloons were out there under Trump as well and were not shot down.
Does that blunt their argument?
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, clearly. Like I said, there is a demand side -- I kind of look at this as an example of the dynamic we're in, is there is more of a demand side than a supply side call for the kind of outrage du jour, especially once you have control of one chamber of Congress.
There is constantly going to be something, always going to be something, between now and Election Day 2024, that is going to cause congressional Republicans to erupt in outrage.
It just kind of -- there's a demand. Something has to fill that spot on any given day. And right now this is the thing that will fill it for the next few days. But I suspect it will not dominate political conversation any longer than the balloon itself lasted over the U.S.
I do think it is going to kind of advance that debate -- and it isn't a debate at this point; it's really more of a movement in both parties toward a harder line toward China. But I think this is more about providing this week's example for the existing conservative audience for why Joe Biden is a failure as president.
HOLMES: Yes. China is sticking with the civilian craft story. That might be true. Doesn't look like it, according to the experts.
But regardless, how important is it for the Biden administration politically and otherwise to prove the Chinese story wrong, to get that stuff out of the water and to a FBI lab and say, see, we were right about this?
BROWNSTEIN: That's a really good point. Look, again, I think the implications are more significant for international relations than for domestic politics. And I think that will be a very important point that they will want to underscore.
There are obviously issues. And I'm sure you've talked to other experts, who said, exactly why did they need a balloon traversing the U.S. when they have a satellite system that can -- satellite surveillance?
They can presumably achieve many of the same goals. This was a provocative act. It was not something that they had to do. You know, they can argue they're responding to our own spyplanes and so forth.
But the reality is that, in a context in which we have seen both parties move away from where they were, under Bill Clinton and certainly even Barack Obama, toward believing that we could coax China into becoming more of a model -- or at least a kind of participant in the international system or a responsible participant.
Both parties are extremely skeptical of China. We see it in all sorts of ways. Even the Inflation Reduction Act and all efforts to move critical materials and production of EV batteries out of China back toward the U.S.
And I just think this is something that is going to give more momentum to that cooling toward China, which really now has become almost a fully -- there's still a difference of degree between where Republicans and Democrats talk about China. But both are moving toward a harder line.
HOLMES: Also, the timing of the balloon's journey seems even more extraordinary, given Antony Blinken was about to visit and that was a meeting the Chinese wanted.
You've got to ask, why do it now?
How big of a blunder is this for China?
And is it leverage for the Americans?
BROWNSTEIN: First of all, one-party states, closed systems, as we are learning again -- with -- or as Putin is perhaps learning -- are not always the best predictors of how their actions are going to be received outside of their borders.
They really have no experience in trying to manage any kind of political debate. They're used to doing what they want and not hearing anything back.
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BROWNSTEIN: So it is hardly surprising, I think, that China miscalculated as fundamentally as this.
And yes, I do think -- you know, Joe Biden is not Bill Clinton or Barack Obama. He did not begin his presidency looking for ways to enhance China's integration into the global system.
In many ways, he echoed the skepticism of China -- in a less bellicose fashion than we heard from Donald Trump. And this, you know, gives him more reinforcement in that direction.
I think it further marginalizes -- I don't think there's a faction in either party, a kind of substantial faction in either party, that's looking to reverse course on China. And this is the kind of thing that will make that even -- reinforce that basic trajectory of our policy.
HOLMES: Great points as always. Ron Brownstein, always a pleasure. Good to see you.
BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.
HOLMES: Dozens of formerly captive Ukrainian troops are back home again. We'll tell you what Russia got in return for setting them free.
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HOLMES: Ukraine says around 500,000 people are without power following a technical failure. Officials say an Odessa substation suffered a malfunction on Saturday after being damaged in Russian strikes. The city's heat and water system are still up and running.
But officials are rushing in emergency generators as well. In the east, pro-Russian officials say one person was killed in an artillery strike on the occupied part of Ukraine. They say the victim was found under debris after a Ukrainian attack hit an apartment block in the city of Donetsk.
Meanwhile, Canada says the Leopard tanks it promised to Ukraine are on the way. Canada's defense minister posted video of these tanks being loaded on transport planes. On Saturday Portugal became the latest country to pledge Leopards to Ukraine while France and Italy are now promising a new air defense system to be delivered this spring.
The pledge came as Ukraine's president made this morning --
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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Over the 346 days of this war, I have often said the situation at the front is tough and that the situation is getting tougher.
Now it is such a time again, the time when the occupier is throwing more and more of its forces at breaking down our defense. It is very difficult now in Bakhmut and other directions.
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HOLMES: Ukraine says more than 100 of its prisoners of war are back home after the latest prisoner exchange with Moscow. It says the remains of two British aid workers killed in the east of the country were also returned.
A Russian state news agency says more than 60 Russian troops were freed by the Ukrainians in a deal mediated with the United Arab Emirates.
For the fifth straight weekend, protesters filled the streets across Israel.
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HOLMES (voice-over): Now this was the scene in Tel Aviv. Thousands more demonstrated in the Jerusalem, Haifa and other Israeli cities. Protesters objecting to the right wing government of Benjamin Netanyahu and a series of planned judicial changes. Opposition leaders attended the rallies, including the former prime minister, Yair Lapid.
In the next hour, Pope Francis will celebrate mass at a mausoleum. It's the pontiff's final day in South Sudan. Saturday he met with some of the millions of South Sudan's internally displaced people.
Delia Gallagher is in Juba with the story.
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DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: On Pope Francis' final evening in South Sudan, he was able to meet with several hundred of the some 4 million internally displaced people and refugees of this country.
He gave a message which he had given to political leaders on Friday evening, that the peace process must be taken seriously, the conflict must end. The future of South Sudan, he said, does not lie in refugee camps.
The civil war, which began in 2013, has created the third largest refugee crisis in the world, according to the U.N. Over half of those refugees are children. And Pope Francis heard from a young girl who lives in one of the camps. She thanked him for coming.
She said we'll remember this day forever. And she also asked for a special blessing, which he gave together with the two other Christian leaders traveling here with him. Later in the evening, the three participated in a joint prayer service for several thousand here in the capital city. They represent the three churches to which most South Sudanese
Christians belong. On Sunday Pope Francis will say mass for Catholics in Juba before returning to Rome in the afternoon -- Delia Gallagher, CNN, Juba.
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HOLMES: The U.N. estimates millions in Afghanistan will need humanitarian assistance this year. Coming up, Save the Children tells us what's needed and why the Taliban crackdown on women's rights needs to be changed.
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HOLMES: A recent U.S. report says more than 28 million children and adults in Afghanistan will need humanitarian support this year. It blames the country's economic collapse after the Taliban takeover.
The Taliban also banning women from universities and working for nongovernmental organizations. After meeting with U.N. officials, a foreign ministry statement said Afghan officials blamed international sanctions on Afghanistan but added that women could work in some areas of health and education.
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HOLMES: Janti Soeripto is the president and chief executive officer of Save the Children U.S..
It's great to have you on. I was talking with an Afghan activist recently about the U.N. delegation which met with the Taliban. She was hugely pessimistic that talks with the Taliban achieved much of significance.
What do you think was achieved?
JANTI SOERIPTO, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, SAVE THE CHILDREN US: Well, thank you for having me, Michael. Look, it's always -- look, we went there last week -- two weeks ago now. We met with nine Taliban leaders.
Most of the ministries that oversee a lot of the humanitarian activities that are happening in the country -- health, education, livelihoods, rural development, et cetera -- and we also met with the deputy prime minster and the minister of foreign affairs.
Look, the talks went as well as they could go. I think we made it very clear that we abhor this ban, that this ban is not only wrong in principle but is also making our work completely impossible. We cannot do humanitarian activities without women. [00:50:00]
SOERIPTO: Almost precisely because of the cultural sensitivities that prompted this ban. Most of the vulnerable people we're trying to reach in Afghanistan are women and children. We cannot reach them with men for obvious reasons.
So we tried to make that clear. We asked for a reversal of the ban. If that wasn't forthcoming, we've asked for more of these exemptions of this ban that we've already gotten from the ministry of health and education.
HOLMES: I know you said there were encouraging signs and some you met with said they'd look into it and were considering things.
How difficult is it dealing with the Taliban, where you do have some senior officials, who might be less hardline than others, that there's not universal agreement on how women and children should be treated?
How does that complicate things?
SOERIPTO: It is complicated. It was always ever thus. We've worked in Afghanistan since 1976, under the previous Taliban regime. The Taliban also controlled a lot of the provinces before the fall of Kabul 18 months ago.
So we've seen this movie before, right?
It was always very different, depending on which province, sometimes within a province, in which district you were working. So that local level negotiation and engagement was always incredibly important.
By the way, as it is in a lot of other countries, too. And that's always what we've seen. So we've gone back to work where we've received assurances that not only was there an exemption but also the assurance that our female colleagues would be safe going back to work, that they would be of help.
Now in a lot of cases, particularly in our health care work, that has been achieved and we've been back to work for the last two weeks there. In almost half of the education activities, that has also been achieved, primary schools for boys and girls. We've run over 3,000 of those before the ban.
So we really would like to get back to those. And there it's been a little bit more difficult, depending on which province you were.
HOLMES: Right.
SOERIPTO: So it is hard. Let there be no mistake. We're not, I think, naive about this, right?
We never expected to just go there and resolve everything, because that was never, I think, in our mind.
HOLMES: Right. SOERIPTO: But you do want to send a signal that the international
community is united about this, that we abhor this ban and that we'd like to get back to work but that we will only do so with men and women.
HOLMES: What if that doesn't happen?
As things stand right now, can Save the Children do its job unless things are turned around?
You know, I'm just reminded, I've been to Afghanistan several times myself, I'm reminded, the Taliban notoriously say one thing -- they've promised a lot, before they retook the country and delivered on not much of that.
What are the real-world impacts of being limited in what you can do?
SOERIPTO: Oh, it is massive. Let's not forget, this was already and is still the largest humanitarian crisis in the world and that's saying something for today's world, there's stiff competition for that title.
There are 28 million people in-country in need of humanitarian assistance; 6 million essentially at famine's door, high levels of food insecurity; 15 million of those 28 million are children.
So yes, it is massive, a massive impact. Malnutrition treatment, if you stop that for two weeks, children, people die. So it is massive. And we've gone back in health care, in some of our education work. But that's nowhere near enough. So we need those exemptions to be expanded and upheld and reliable.
HOLMES: We're right out of time but I did want to squeeze this in. The Taliban has banned women from pretty much all education at the moment in a country where women have to see women doctors, as one example.
What's going to be the long-term implication of women not being educated to do those crucial jobs?
SOERIPTO: Exactly.
HOLMES: That even the Taliban says only women can do?
SOERIPTO: Again, that's the message we gave. If you want female teachers, doctors, midwives to deliver babies, you have to have girls go to school. So we raise that point, too. Again, we were told, we're working on it.
We said, you've told us this before. We haven't seen action. Words are not enough. We do have to see those actions. Otherwise, we can't go back to work.
HOLMES: Yes. I wish you well. And you do amazing work. Thank you so much.
SOERIPTO: Thank you, Michael.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Such an important story.
Dozens of wildfires are burning in Chile and the weather certainly isn't helping. The temperatures are in excess of 100 degrees Fahrenheit, around 40 degrees Celsius. There are high winds also fanning the flames. An area the size of Philadelphia has already been charred. The cost in human lives continues to rise. At least 23 people have now died.
[00:55:00]
HOLMES: On Friday, an emergency support helicopter crashed, killing its pilot and a mechanic.
A massive fire near the Ohio-Pennsylvania border followed a train derailment that happened nearly 24 hours ago. Evacuation and shelter in place orders were put into effect for nearby residents in northeast Ohio.
No injuries reported but the train was hauling some 20 cars with hazardous materials, according to a transport official. But environmental authorities say they have not detected any harmful releases as of now. The cause of the derailment is unclear.
The arctic blast that gripped the northeastern United States for a few days is beginning to taper off. The wind chill alerts have ended as the gusting winds die down. Temperatures expected to rebound to around 5 to 10 degrees above normal in the coming hours.
Across New England, officials opened warming centers for people experiencing homelessness during what was life-threatening cold. In Boston on Saturday, they hit a low temperature of -10 degrees Fahrenheit. That's around -23 Celsius.
The coldest place was at the Mt. Washington Observatory in New Hampshire. They recorded a new U.S. national wind chill record of -108 degrees Fahrenheit, -77 Celsius for those outside the U.S.
The new world record would beat what most meteorologists believe to be the old wind chill record of -105 degrees, which was set in Alaska.
Thanks for spending part of your day with me. Follow me on Twitter and Instagram @HolmesCNN. I'll be back with more news in a couple of minutes.
