Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Internal Doc Reveals Fired Memphis Cop Snapped, Texted Cell Phone Photos Of Bloodied Tyre Nichols To Several People; Alex Murdaugh's Defense Questions Forensic Expert On Gunshot Residue; Interview With Rep. Michael Burgess (R-TX): President Biden's Goading Republican In State Of The Union Address. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 08, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And among other claims it says that the officers never told Tyre Nichols why they were pulling him over. It also says that they used excessive force which we all saw in the video. And it says that these officers tried to turn off or otherwise obscure their body worn cameras while later laughing and bragging about the incident while misleading investigators. These documents say that the accounts given to investigators by these officers contradicted one another and otherwise omitted or distorted the violence used against Nichols during his stop -- Bianna, Victor.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, HOST: So, I understand you also spoke with a man who says that he is a victim of the now disbanded SCORPION unit and assaulted just days before Tyre Nichols was beaten. Tell us what you know.

VALENCIA: That's right, Victor, 22-year-old, Monterrious Harris, he's a U.S. Navy veteran, and he said just three days prior to the Tyre Nichols stop, he was beaten up by members of the SCORPION unit. In fact, the same five officers now charged with murder in the death of Tyre Nichols, he says were the same officers that beat him up. Just listen to him describe to us what it was like when he realized that the same officers involved in Nichols' incident were involved in his own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONTERRIOUS HARRIS, CLAIMS HE WAS ASSAULTED BY MEMPHIS SCORPION UNIT: It was really scary. It was devastating. Because when I was released from jail, my dad, he could see me like punched up and stuff. And he was like, you know, what happened, you know, anything could have been worse. So, a couple days later, he sent me a link with Tyre's face, how beat up he was in the hospital with the pictures of the officers under it. And I was just reading the article and the names kind of struck a bell. So, I was like these are the same officers that beat me up, you know. Just days before this happened to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Harris says that the officers jumped out wearing ski masks. He actually thought he was being car jacked because the officers did not initially identify themselves as being the police. He has filed a federal civil lawsuit and is seeking $5 million from the city and from this Police Department here in Memphis -- Victor, Bianna.

BLACKWELL: Nick Valencia in Memphis, thank you for the reporting.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Let's bring in John Miller, CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst. So, John, we're learning more and more about this incident and this is just extremely disturbing the fact that you have a police officer now having seen Tyre there fatally injured, taking pictures and then texting it to other people. What is your reaction and how should law enforcement -- or what legal ramifications can there be, knowing that this happened?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well I mean, the legal ramifications for Demetrius Haley are that he's charged with murder in the second degree, kidnapping. This is the least of his problems. But it is a very significant sign of a disease, a sickness, a cancer within that unit where they could as a group administer a brutal beating for someone who by all articulations had not committed a crime and was not resisting arrest. And then glorify it by basically turning it into a personal social media moment by saying look what I did. That's a real problem in terms of culture and psychology within that unit.

BLACKWELL: John, let's broaden the question to what fixes this. The funding of body cams, many thought would make it less likely to happen. They were wearing body cams. There was a pole camera. They were in a neighborhood where anyone could just open the blinds and record on their cellphones. So, if this's culture and psychology, what changes it?

MILLER: Well, lot of it has to do with the selection process. The fundamental problems with the SCORPION unit, if you had to do a doctors diagnoses, the patient was inexperienced officers. Only one officer of that entire crew had six years on the job. Everybody else was two or three, lack of supervision. The first supervisor arrived there six minutes after gets all over. They should have had a supervisor on that team who was there and should have intervened.

But this is the larger problem, Victor, which is currently, to quote Ken Corey, the chief of the NYPD who ran the training division before he was chief, we ask our police officers to think like lawyers, speak like psychologists, perform like athletes, but we pay them as common laborers. A New York City cop is making 42 thousand dollars a year to start. That's about $21 an hour. That's about five bucks more than you'd be making at McDonald's. So, you know, you got a two year college requirement, it's a time when very few people want to go into policing because of a lot of the negative outlook there.

Memphis in particular was offering a $15,000 bonus to sign up for the department. $10,000 moving fee if you were coming from out of town. And they had lowered standards, gotten rid of the college requirement.

[15:35:00]

And waived a lot of the prohibitions on having a prior criminal record. So these are chickens that are coming home to roost. Not just right now because when you hire somebody who may be in that job for 20 years, lowering these standards is going to follow you in bad ways as we're seeing for a long time. The fundamental question is how do you turn it around on a national level.

GOLODRYGA: Do you think this is just a one-off case or are you worried that there are maybe other units -- other police officers who act so on appropriately and unprofessionally?

MILLER: It's a really interesting question. Because it's definitely not a one-off case when you see from the George Floyd incident to the Eric Garner incident to this incident that these things happen. And they often happen within these high-end plain clothes units. It comes back to supervision.

On the other hand, American cities are struggling with crime. And these units properly supervised and properly trained with officers who have the requisite experience, things that we're seeing lacking in this case, can be very effective on reducing violent crime. It's just got to be done the right way.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, it shouldn't be a binary choice. I mean, at this point you've got to be able to address the crime while also addressing the policing situation.

MILLER: Yes, and there are studies by PERF -- the Police Executive Research Forum show, you know, that recruitment is down slightly, but retirement and resignation is right up. So, something has to be done to attract the right people.

BLACKWELL: A conversation that will continue. John Miller, thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, is Congress on the same page when it comes to Social Security and Medicare?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, folks, as we all apparently agree, Social Security and Medicare off the books now, right? They're not to be touched? (Applause.)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: And that's what it sounds like to President Biden. We'll have more reaction from his "State of the Union" address after the break.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: An unexpected moment in the double murder trial of Alex Murdaugh today. Just after noon, authorities evacuated the courthouse due to a bomb threat. Now before the incident a forensic scientist returned to the stand for cross-examination. She previously testified that she found gunshot residue on the clothes of the former South Carolina attorney was wearing the night his wife and son were shot dead.

BLACKWELL: A blue raincoat is of particular interest. She told the court yesterday it was found with, quote, a significant number of gunshot residue particles. CNN's Randi Kaye is live outside the courthouse in Walterboro. Has the trial resumed?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor it has. Just about a half an hour ago. Everybody went back inside. We had the bomb threat about 12:25 this afternoon. Someone calling into the general sessions office here in court so the judge evacuated court as a safety measure. They did a sweep and then they eventually got court back under way.

But one of the key witnesses at trial so far today is a woman named Megan Fletcher. She is a gunshot residue expert for S.L.E.D., that's the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, and she was talking about that blue rain coat you just mentioned. That coat was recovered from Alex Murdaugh's mother's home shortly after the murders took place. And she said that she found significant gunshot residue particles on that rain jacket, 38 particles on the inside I should say and 14 particles on the outside. Here's what she told the jury as well as how the defense pushed back on her.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you has gun inside that rain jacket that had recently been fired and you were taking it somewhere to hide it or transport it, would the 38 particles inside, inside, the rain jacket be consistent with transfer from a recently fired firearm?

MEGAN FLETCHER, GUNSHOT RESIDUE EXPERT, S.L.E.D.: That is a possibility, yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only thing you can tell us is what you saw under a microscope.

FLETCHER: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't tell the jury how it got there, right?

FLETCHER: That's correct.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: And as you heard it there, the defense trying to make the point that this witness could not say how or when the gunshot residue got on that rain jacket. Also, I should note the gunshot residue, according to this witness, is not biodegradable, so it would stay on there for a very long time as long as somebody doesn't aggressively try to wash it off, as she put it. And keep in mind, this was a hunting property, there's a lot of guns being transferred in and out of cars. The defense was quick to make that point as well. But she did note that it was very odd to have so much gunshot residue on the inside of a coat -- Victor, Bianna.

BLACKWELL: All right, very interesting. Randi Kaye for us in Walterboro, thank you. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy says that the president was trying to

goad Republicans last night. I'll ask a GOP lawmaker if that's how he sees it. That's next.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: During his "State of the Union" address last night, President Biden had to regain control over a rowdy chamber especially when it came to his comments about some Republicans' plans for Social Security. But today House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is accusing the president of trying to bait his members into bad behavior and he issued this warning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: The president was trying to goad the members. The members are passionate about it. But the one thing the president is saying is something he knew was not true. I just spent an hour with him. I've said it many times before. Social Security and Medicare are off the table. He tries to use it for a political employ. We need to be smart, don't take the bait, stay with the American public about what we want to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Joined now by Republican Congressman Michael Burgess. He represents a district there in Texas. Congressman, good too have you.

REP. MICHAEL BURGESS (R-TX): Hi Victor, thank you for having me on.

BLACKWELL: So, let's start with the Republicans behavior last night during the speech. Do you regret the way that members of your conference behaved there during the "State of the Union" address?

BURGESS: Well, we're all responsible for our own behavior. It's not the response that I put forward last night. But I do think the Speaker is absolutely correct.

[15:50:00]

I mean, the president has made -- he's made it a habit since the middle of October in saying that Republicans want to cut Medicare and Social Security. That's just absolutely not true. In fact, I would just point out to people that the only cutting to Medicare that has occurred in the last two years has been at the president's hand. It's been at his agencies, at his Secretary of Health. So, the policies that they put forward, in the American Rescue Plan, and the Inflation Reduction Act, seriously, seriously adversely affected physician payments in Medicare. You talk to any doctor in the country, asked them how they've done in the last two years. And in the face of inflationary pressure, they've had pay cut after pay cut. And it's not sustainable. But that's not Republicans. That is the president. That is Congressional Democrats. BLACKWELL: Let's talk about what got the huge reaction from the

president -- from Republicans there to what the president said. I'm going to play what the president said about some Republicans' plan for Social Security and Medicare. And then, we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIDEN: Instead of making the wealthy pay their fair share, some Republicans -- some Republicans want Medicare and Social Security to sunset. I'm not saying it's a majority --

AUDIENCE: Boo --

BIDEN: Let me give you --

AUDIENCE: No!

BIDEN: Anybody who doubts it, contact my office. I'll give you a copy. I'll give you a copy of the proposal.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Liar!

BIDEN: That means Congress doesn't vote --

Well, I'm glad to see -- no, I tell you, I enjoy conversion. (Laughter.)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURGESS: I don't know what conversion is.

BLACKWELL: We saw -- we saw Congresswoman -- we saw Congresswoman -- I think he meant converting from wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare to now not. But we saw Marjorie Taylor Greene there twice call him a liar.

Let me read to you from Sen. Rick Scott's plan to rescue America. This is page 36. Ail federal legislation sunsets in five years. If a law is worth keeping, Congress can pass it again. Of course, Medicare and Social Security would be under that. Senator Ron Johnson said that entitlement should be made discretionary. Those would have to be voted on every year. Where is the lie?

BURGESS: Well, look, here's the simple truth -- Social Security and Medicare are both Pac stopped by trust funds. Those trust funds according to the trustees responsible, are in serious trouble. Medicare in 2026, Social Security in 2030. When those trust funds are exhausted, there are things that happen to beneficiaries. And those things are the benefits are reduced. That's just a fact. That's not a law that anyone is putting forward.

BLACKWELL: But you do acknowledge there's Republicans who do want to sunset every federal legislation after five years and that there is a Senator who want that after a year to turn it to discretionary.

BURGESS: This is important because -- BLACKWELL: Yes, it is.

BURGESS: -- because if Congress does not work together. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Senator Monahan, back in the -- I think it was 1983 or '84, got together, and came up with a plan to save Social Security. It affected people my age because then when I get to age 65, the retirement age now is 67. Also, it was a long time in phasing in. But they came together and worked out a problem because they saw what was dead ahead. And what was dead ahead was a reduction in benefits for people who are depending on those programs. So, there's no reason in the world we can't have those types of discussions. But we can't have them if people are just talking from political talking points.

BLACKWELL: I understand what you're saying, Congressman. There's a distinguishment between my question and your answer, but you have answered. One more here on fentanyl. The president pointed out the 70,000 people a year who die from a little -- the tiniest bit of this lethal drug, here's a moment from last night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIDEN: Fentanyl is killing more than 70,000 Americans a year. Big -

(CROSSTALK)

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Order!

BIDEN: Big -- you got it.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: (INAUDIBLE) China!

AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's your fault!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: You heard there a Congressman from Tennessee shout, "it's your fault."

BURGESS: Yes, that wasn't me, I'll just point out. But I heard it.

BLACKWELL: Is it the president's fault?

BURGESS: Look, the problem is, with the absolute erosion of control at the border in Texas, the southern border, and I get it. The Democrats say, oh, it's coming at points of entry, it's not illegal immigrants bringing this stuff in.

The problem is the number of people, the customs and border protection, DEA officials, are required to, in their custodial care, they can't keep up with what's coming across in the points of entry.

[15:55:00]

So, the fact of the matter is, that because of loss of control of the southern border -- and I lay that precisely at the feet of President Biden and Secretary Mayorkas, because of their policies they have created this crisis. Look, I worked really hard on the support act back in 2018.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

BURGESS: Getting control of the opiate crisis. I thought it was important. We made some important strides. But now, fentanyl is a different disease. And it is so deadly. And it's pervasive on social media. I didn't understand this until just the other day in one of our roundtables and Snapchat and how that is delivering fentanyl to the doors of 16-year-olds who are then overdosing and dying. That's wrong we've got to stop it.

BLACKWELL: Congressman, you make a good point that it has to be stopped. I will make this point though as we wrap up here. You say that the policies of the president and the Homeland Security Secretary created this. If we look at the trajectory of fentanyl coming into the country, this started to really take off in 2019. So, just to put the numbers on the screen and add them to the conversation. Congressman Michael Burgess, thank you so much for your time.

BURGESS: Yes, thank you.

GOLODRYGA: The conversation we'll continue to be having, a very important one.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts after a short break. Thanks for watching.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)