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President Biden Delivers State of the Union Address; Rescuers Race Against Time to Find Survivors. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired February 08, 2023 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[03:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us here in the United States and all around the world. You are watching "CNN Newsroom" and I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Some Republicans want Medicare and social security to sunset. I'm not saying it's a majority.

(APPLAUSE, BOOS, HECKLING)

BIDEN: Let me give you -- anybody who doubts it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Decorum goes out the window during President Biden's state of the union address as some Republicans openly booed and heckled him mid-speech.

And rescuers racing against time to find survivors after the devastating earthquake that has left more than 8,700 people dead across Turkey and Syria.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Live from CNN Center, this is "CNN Newsroom" with Rosemary Church.

CHURCH: Thanks for joining us. The U.S. president has delivered his first state of the union address with a republican majority in the House of Representatives. He brought an energetic and optimistic message to the country despite facing some open hostility. One of Joe Biden's big themes was working across the aisle, and he made a huge push for bipartisanship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I signed over 300 bipartisan pieces of legislation since becoming president. From reauthorizing the Violence Against Women Act to Electoral Count Reform Act, the Respect for Marriage Act that protects the right to marry the person you love. And to my Republican friends, if we could work together in the last Congress, there is no reason we can't work together and find consensus on important things in this Congress as well.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: But later in the address, Mr. Biden took a few swipes at Republicans for plans that would reportedly slash beloved entitlement programs like social security and Medicare. And despite the House speaker's request that Republicans be respectful, things got unruly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(APPLAUSE, BOOS, HECKLING)

BIDEN: Let me give you -- anybody who doubts it --

CHURCH: His accusations seemed to trigger some Republicans who yelled "liar" from their seats and the president seemed to enjoy that, responding and engaging with his hecklers. He quipped, I enjoyed conversion, suggesting that both sides now agreed on protecting programs for senior citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: But his main theme of the night was, let's finish the job, and he repeated it multiple times during his speech. Those three words are what the White House wants the American public to take away from his remarks, the idea that so much has been achieved already, but the job isn't done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Let's finish the job and ban these assault weapons. Let's finish the job and give more families access to affordable quality housing. Let's finish the job and make these savings permanent.

(APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: Expand coverage on Medicare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: Meanwhile, Republicans are trying to bring in some new blood and highlight a generational difference. They chose Arkansas Governor Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who at 40 years old, is America's youngest governor. Several times, she called democratic policies "crazy."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS (R-AR): The dividing line in America is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal or crazy. It's time for a new generation of republican leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: All right, I want to bring in our panel now. John Phillips is a talk radio show host at KABC in Southern California. Caroline Heldman is a Democratic strategist and professor of critical theory and social justice at Occidental College in Lost Angeles. Appreciate you both joining us.

CAROLINE HELDMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, PROFESSOR OF CRITICAL THEORY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE AT OCCIDNTAL COLLEGE IN LOS ANGELES: Good to be with you, Rosemary.

CHURCH: All right, so, in his state of the union address, President Biden listed his accomplishments so far, taking advantage of the largest audience any U.S. politician will have all year. He powered through some unruly heckling, didn't he, from some Republicans, explaining how he had turned the economy around despite the pandemic and laying out his plan ahead for the economy, police reform, gun control, bipartisanship and, of course, abortion rights.

[03:05:07]

CHURCH: So, Caroline, big picture, how did it go?

HELDMAN: It was really unusual to have this kind of collective heckling. We've never seen this before. We saw Joe Wilson heckled Obama in 2009. Lauren Boebert heckled Biden the last time around. But this kind of collective heckling, we've never seen before. I think Joe Biden handled it really well.

I'm not a big fan of political speeches or the state of the union. I'm not a big fan of listening to Biden talk. He trips over his words a lot. He did not do that tonight. He was engaged. He pushed back. I think he handled the situation precisely how he should have.

And I love that he opened the state of the union with a very classy nod to Mitch McConnell, to Kevin McCarthy, joking about how it would hurt McCarthy's brand, but he was looking forward to working with him.

The bipartisan team did come through, and I thought that Biden did a remarkably good job at convincing Democrats and centrists that he is up for the job come 2024.

CHURCH: All right, let's go to you, John, because, of course, you've got a very different opinion. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy had earlier warned Republicans to behave during the address. Not everybody did, as we saw. What is your reaction to the heckling of the president and what about the substance of his address? What do you say to that?

JOHN PHILLIPS, KABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, as someone who sat in the peanut gallery for many baseball games in Southern California, the heckling is something that is not new to me.

But what you saw tonight was you saw a man who is highly vulnerable for reelection, a man who clearly plans on running for reelection in 2024, but vulnerable in both the democratic primary and in the general election. And he is trying to establish himself tonight as the Democratic candidate who is most likely to be able to rack up a victory in November of 2024. He does not want to be Dianne Feinstein in the democratic primary. He does not want to be beaten by someone who is much more vulnerable in a general election scenario.

He harped on traditional democratic themes. He harped on abortion, he harped on race, he harped on entitlements, subjects that will get Democrats to rally the troops, but not put him in a category that makes him (INAUDIBLE) to a general election audience.

That's his play for political survival in the next couple of years, to make himself the one who is most likely to keep the presidency and the democratic column. And clearly, that is how he is trying to frame this and that is what he tried to frame tonight.

CHURCH: And as we heard, President Biden emphasized his economic accomplishments, saying jobs are coming back, pride is coming back. But according to recent polls, his economic and pandemic accomplishments are not resonating with the American people.

Is that a failing on his part as a communicator because anyone who understands economics, of course, knows that the economy is in pretty good shape despite the pandemic and, of course, the supply chain issue? So, Caroline, why is that message not landing?

HELDMAN: Well, I think it's a couple of things. I think you're right, Rosemary, that Biden has not done a good job of communicating this. It's important to point out that 62% of Americans do not think that he has accomplished much in the past two years.

Meanwhile, empirically, setting partisanship aside, this man has actually gotten some major legislation through the Infrastructure Act, CHIPS, COVID-19 bailout, and the Inflation Reduction Act. I mean, these are major pieces of legislation, and he's not getting credit for it. Fine, he hasn't done a good job of communicating that.

But I also think there's another component here which is that the aggregate economic indicators, the big economic indicators, you know, adding 500 jobs a month, having the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years, is not necessarily translating to everyday Americans in the sense that there are still high prices at the gas pump. It's coming down, but high food prices, eggs, et cetera.

So, while some sectors are thriving, there are working class Americans who are still hurting and that message that Joe Biden is sending about the economy is not something they are feeling in their everyday lives.

CHURCH: And John, I'm guessing you are reluctant to admit that the economy is in good shape despite all the challenges. But why do the American people not grasp that jobs are growing and inflation is gradually coming down? And what is the GOP's economic agenda? They're not really telling us much apart from let's cut spending.

PHILLIPS: Well, I mean, go to the grocery store. Look at the price of eggs. Here in Southern California, people are having their natural gas bill increased exponentially. You look at the business page of the newspaper and you see layoffs in various aspects of the tech sector and across the board. Municipal budgets are starting to be blown.

[03:10:00]

PHILLIPS: The city of San Francisco here in California, I mean, could have a budget that is blown by over a billion dollars in not too far down the road. So, people are aware of what's going on around them.

Joe Biden, I think his Achilles heel for reelection will be the economy. That is the reason why Republicans took control of the House of Representatives. People are very upset about inflation. They are very upset about the state of the economy.

And for him to just say, everything is okay, you just don't understand, isn't the sales pitch that the Democrats need to win the issue over. There needs to be serious improvements. There needs to be serious change that is felt all the way from Wall Street to Main Street. That is not happening right now.

CHURCH: And, of course, this was the president's second state of the union address. His first, in front of the GOP-dominated House. But wasn't an attack speech as such, was it? President Biden tried to offer a path to bipartisanship, but Republicans don't appear to be responsive to that. And the big fight ahead will likely be over the lifting of the debt ceiling.

And when Mr. Biden and Kevin McCarthy met last week on the issue, they both seemed to think that they could find common ground. So, Caroline, how likely is it that that will happen given the daunting economic consequences if they don't get this done?

HELDMAN: Well, it will absolutely happen. The question is, how bloody the battle gets towards the end? There is not really an option. We have to raise the debt ceiling. It is (INAUDIBLE) for, you know, 400 years. We have raised it over 100 times. It was raised three times under Trump's presidency. It's being weaponized now by the Republicans.

But at the end of the day, the consequences are such that it could cause not just a global recession, but a global depression if the U.S. defaults on its debt. We have until June to figure this out.

And so, it's really a matter of what Kevin McCarthy is willing to or what he can get from the more extreme members of his party. And it's not simply on him. I, of course, have faith that it will happen. He is using budget cuts that he wants to put forth, more extreme members of his party want to put forth, to put pressure on Biden.

But at the end of the day, this is definitely what we incurred under Democratic and Republican presidents. We can talk about spending, we can talk about spending cuts, but that is actually a distinct and separate topic from paying the debt that we've already signed up for.

CHURCH: Let's hope they can get it done. Caroline Heldman, John Phillips, many thanks to you both for joining us. Appreciate it.

HELDMAN: Thanks, Rosemary.

PHILLIPS: Thank you.

CHURCH: Now to that devastating earthquake in Turkey and Syria where the death toll has risen above 8,700. For two days on and despite freezing temperatures, rescue crews are still finding survivors buried in the rubble.

In Northwest Syria, heavy equipment is in short supply, leaving people to dig through the debris with their bare hands. And these are live pictures from Gaziantep in Turkey where residents are complaining about the slow pace of rescues and what they call an inadequate response from the government.

Turkey's president has declared a three-month state of emergency in 10 provinces. He is expected to visit disaster areas near the epicenter.

So, let's go live now to CNN's Becky Anderson, who joins us in Southern Turkey. So, a lot of people, they want to see the president there on the scene, don't they? They're feeling like they've been abandoned here.

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, here in Gaziantep, I'm sure that anybody wants to say anything but some extractions of live people. Politics aside, what you are witnessing behind me here -- and apologies, there's a lot of smoke around -- people are standing in front of fires to try and keep warm. It is cold here.

What you're seeing behind me is the possibility, Rosemary, that this search and rescue team and the volunteers are about to bring out a family alive. They have been calling for silence now regularly over the last couple of hours. We know that there is a gentleman with his two sons who, until a couple of hours ago, was communicating with the team.

I'm going to go quiet again because they've called for silence. They've been communicating with the team until about two hours ago. The team believes that they are very close to getting to this family. Let's just pause for a moment.

[03:15:00]

ANDERSON: Let me just explain for our viewers, Rosemary, that this has been 52 hours in the making now. It is 11:00 in the morning here in Turkey on Wednesday. This earthquake struck, this massive earthquake struck at 4:15 a.m. on Monday morning. Those caught under the rubble may certainly be alive. They've been there now for 50 hours. It's minus six and there's, obviously, a significant risk of hypothermia.

This search and rescue team has got to what they believe is the fifth floor. And they believe this family is trapped on the fourth floor. So, they are hoping against hope that they will be able to bring this family out alive. Heartbreaking stories all over this region. Heartwarming stories about the way the people are coping, are helping, providing support for each other in what are desperate times, Rosemary.

CHURCH: Becky, thank you for bringing us that report. And we all hope and pray that that family is extracted from under that rubble.

And we are unfortunately getting word that there has been an update in the death toll. It's more than 9,000 dead across Turkey and Syria in the aftermath of this massive earthquake in Turkey and Syria. That was a 7.8 magnitude quake that hit Monday morning. People were asleep in their beds at 4:17 in the morning.

But those rescue efforts continue and we do hope that this is a happy ending in this particular incident.

Just ahead, President Biden talks Ukraine, Russia, and China in his state of the union address. We will look at global reaction with CNN's Nic Robertson. Back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[03:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: U.S. President Joe Biden's state of the union also addressed two pressing foreign policy issues his administration faces, Ukraine and China. And just days after the U.S. Military shot down a suspected Chinese spy balloon that had slipped into American airspace, Mr. Biden touched on America's relationship with China.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I'm committed to work with China where we can advance American interests and benefit the world. But make no mistake about it. As we made clear last week, if China threatens our sovereignty, we will act to protect our country, and we did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: And Ukraine's ambassador to the U.S. was present for that speech as President Biden strongly reaffirmed America's support for the war-torn nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Putin's administration has been a test for the ages, test for America, test for the world. Would we stand for the most basic of principles? Would we stand for sovereignty? Would we stand for the right of people to live free of tyranny? Would we stand for the defense of democracy?

(APPLAUSE) BIDEN: For such defense matters to us because it keeps peace and prevents open season on would-be aggressors that threaten our prosperity.

(APPLAUSE)

One year later, we know the answer. Yes, we would, and we did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: And for more on the story, I'm joined now by CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson who is in London. Good morning to you, Nic. So, what has been the international reaction so far? President Biden is reaffirming his commitment to support Ukraine in his state of the union address.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, with little surprise, President Zelenskyy has been the first European leader to respond, thanking President Biden of the United States for his leadership, thanking the American people for their solidarity, saying that they have a common goal, that goal is victory.

What President Biden was talking about in his speech there was the building of alliances, making that strong support, making NATO stronger, and the United States leading the way there. That something certainly that partners and NATO will recognize.

I think perhaps, you know, part of President Biden's message there, of course, for the international community (INAUDIBLE) really on the China and Ukraine issue that I think reached for the domestic audiences as well because this was a big issue with President Trump when talking about NATO.

President Biden is saying that United States allies are contributing more, are spending more. And he talked here a lot about the importance of spending on defense, that the strong defense is very important at this time, investing in defense, and also working with allies and partners to make sure that the U.S. technologies in their hands don't fall in the hands of enemies.

[03:25:03]

ROBERTSON: More broadly speaking, the reaction from European leaders, we have not heard that yet. It's still early in the day here. But very clearly, this will be something a message that they understand because the United States has led the way to build this coalition of military support, in particular for Ukraine.

And the tanks issue getting in line with Germany as well and other European nations coming on board, that has been very clear, a part of the sort of diplomatic process going on in the background.

CHURCH: And Nic, what about Mr. Biden's comments on China? What has been the international reaction to that so far?

ROBERTSON: China, of course, awake (ph) much earlier than Europe, and the reaction to what President Biden has said specifically, we have not heard yet in detail.

But what we do know is he referenced the balloon, the Chinese suspected spy balloon flying over the United States. China, as we know, has protested already about the United States shooting that down, now saying that the balloon is its property and the United States essentially should return it.

And a strong message coming from China's (INAUDIBLE) in the United States to both the State Department and the National Security in the United States, protesting, again, the downing of the balloon.

But what President Biden has talked about here is building alliances and strengthening those alliances, particularly the bridge between the Atlantic and Pacific partners. We've certainly seen that in the growing links between European NATO partners and countries like Japan, South Korea.

As we know, Secretary of State Lloyd Austin very recently in the Philippines, Indonesia, building up strength and support there. Perhaps, no surprise that China has refused to take a phone call from Lloyd Austin to discuss moving forward in the diplomatic relationship since the downing of that balloon.

CHURCH: All right, our thanks to Nic Robertson joining us live from London. Appreciate it.

You're watching "CNN Newsroom." Just ahead, President Biden hits back at a handful of Republican hecklers during his state of the union address. We'll have more on that.

[03:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: We are getting new information on Ukraine's president. We want to go to CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson now to bring us up to date on what the situation is. What are you learning?

ROBERTSON: Rosemary, we're learning that President Zelenskyy is due to arrive here in the U.K. today, Wednesday. That he is expected to meet with the prime minister. He's expected to address parliament. He's also expected to go and visit Ukrainian troops doing training here in the U.K.

Of course, we've heard from the British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace over the past week or so saying that the Ukrainian troops that are doing training here in the U.K. on the U.K. Challenger 2 tank. The U.K. of course. the first to give tanks, offer tanks to Ukraine, modern main battlefield tanks.

Ben Wallace has said that those Ukrainian troops are really doing well in the training. So, President Zelenskyy will be, we understand, visiting them. So, I think in the speech to parliament, not getting ahead of myself here, but the U.K. has been one of the countries that has received a lot of praise. Prime Minister Boris Johnson received a lot of praise, or former Prime Minister Boris Johnson received a lot of praise from President Zelenskyy.

So, I think the speech to parliament today we could expect to hear gratitude from the Ukrainian president. But obviously, whenever he speaks, he does like to talk about what else he wants. He wants jet fighters for Ukraine forces. We understand at the moment that the British may expand their current training program for Ukrainian forces, to include training for jet fighter pilots.

There is no commitment for the U.K. or any other nation yet to give Ukraine modern fighter jets. But the British are -- will be, we understand, offering that training to the Ukrainian forces so that their fighter jet pilots can in the future fly modern NATO fighter jet aircraft.

Now, of course, this is not the whole of what President Zelenskyy would want, but this is certainly a step in the direction. As we've seen before, Britain leads the way on tanks. So, is this opening the door for other partners of Ukraine to step up and step in the direction of fighter jet support for Ukraine?

But this is a very big moment for President Zelenskyy. He's only stepped out of the country once since (inaudible), since the war began almost a year ago, and that was a very quick visit to the United States. Here he is arriving in the U.K. today.

We know that he has an open invitation from the European Union who are having a key meeting tomorrow, Thursday, in Brussels, but today, his visit here in the U.K. speaking with the prime minister, speaking to parliament, visiting Ukrainian troops who are in training here.

CHURCH: It is extraordinary. So, just getting that news. President Zelenskyy of Ukraine will visit the United Kingdom today. Nic Robertson, many thanks for joining us. We'll take a short break. Back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[03:35:00]

CHURCH: President Biden was hitting back at Republican hecklers during his State of the Union Address. This was Mr. Biden's chance to speak directly to millions of Americans, listing his administration's accomplishments over the first two years in office and repeatedly saying let's finish the job.

The president also appealed to Republicans to work with the White House and find agreement through compromise. Ron Brownstein is a CNN senior political analyst and senior editor for "The Atlantic." He joins me now from Los Angeles. Great to have you with us, Ron, as always.

RON BRWONSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Rosemary.

CHURCH: So, lots of heckling, but the president seems to enjoy hitting back and listing all his accomplishments, even though most Americans don't appear to appreciate what he has achieved so far. [03:40:04]

So, how do you think he came across overall?

BROWNSTEIN: You know, this state of the union comes at a very interesting moment because on the one hand, obviously, Democrats dodged a bullet in the midterm election where they performed much better than expected, in fact, much better than Barack Obama or Bill Clinton did in their first midterm elections.

But as you note, President Biden's job approval rating still remains below 50 percent. Most Americans say they're dissatisfied with the economy and over 60 percent in that Washington Post/ABC poll this week says they do not believe he has accomplished much or anything.

I thought tonight he did a very effective job of blending conciliation with confrontation. You know, Obama in 2011 and Clinton in '95, in those first speeches after those bad midterm elections, really went out of their way to kind of reach out to Republicans and to signal to voters that they were going to make a course correction.

Joe Biden didn't have nearly as bad a midterm as they did and he didn't -- he clearly didn't feel nearly as much pressure to suggest that he was going to find a different direction. I thought he was very confident in starting by where he would work with Republicans. But as you know, as the speech went on, he put more and more emphasis on what he would not give up or concede to them.

Cuts in social security and Medicare, a nationwide ban on abortion, an increase in the debt ceiling that requires other spending cuts. So, I thought he set himself up pretty effectively for the contrast and the battles that are coming in the months ahead.

CHURCH: So, Ron, why has the president failed then to get the message across to American voters, particularly if the economy is moving in the right direction? We're seeing job growth, we're seeing inflation going down, but presumably people aren't feeling that.

BROWNSTEIN: Right. You know, there, historically, is a long lag time between the economy turning around and Americans agreeing that the economy has turned around. At this point in 1983, with unemployment beginning to steadily decline, Ronald Reagan was trailing Walter Mondale and Gallup polls. Reagan ultimately won 60 percent of the vote in 49 states.

Biden's overall approval and the sense that he has accomplished things is probably not going to be affected enormously by the selling job that they go out and do in the coming weeks. It's really going to be affected by continued improvement in inflation, a sense of voters that they are lifting their heads above water.

But Rosemary, what I think he did tonight was begin to frame the contrasts that could be effective for him if that predicate is reached. I mean, when voters are dissatisfied about the economy, it's always a headwind to the incumbent president. But if that dissatisfaction begins to fade (ph), and even if it doesn't, the ability to draw contrast with Republicans are going to be critical to his fate.

CHURCH: Right. And Ron, was this address essentially the start of his re-election campaign? And how will that go, given most polls seem to be, well, they're pretty much tired of Joe Biden and they're also tired of Donald Trump.

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. Well, look, I thought it was incredibly revealing of what 2024 is going to look like. Not only because of his speech, but because of the Republican response from Sarah Huckabee Sanders. I mean, she went out and she really pressed hard at all of those culture war buttons that are so critical to mobilizing the modern Republican coalition.

And when she talked about a woke mob and the radical left's vision for America is teaching children to hate each other because of their race, I think she actually previewed a lot of what we are going to hear in the 2024 if the Republican nominee is either Donald Trump, who obviously has kind of played in these waters throughout his career, or Ron DeSantis, who is betting his potential candidacy on convincing America that there is this kind of woke mob out to transform the country.

What Biden did in contrast was very interesting. You know, he did talk about abortion rights and LGBTQ rights and the threat to democracy. But pretty deep into the speech, the heart of his speech, was trying to convince working class voters that he would improve their economic prospects, both by creating good paying jobs through his big bills like infrastructure and the semiconductor bill, but also by supporting programs designed to basically help them make ends meet, you know, fighting junk fees, protecting Medicare and social security, cutting prices for drugs.

[03:44:47]

So, in some ways, the two sides we're talking past each other, but in a very revealing way that I think Republicans are going to, in all likelihood in 2024, stress kind of cultural grievances and resentments while Biden tries to just slightly improve his working-class support in the key states by emphasizing economic opportunity.

It really was a little bit of a fast forward preview of what we may be hearing a lot more of in a year or a year and a half.

CHURCH: Always great to get your analysis. Ron Brownstein, thanks for joining us.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

CHURCH: Still to come, the parents of Tyre Nichols are recognized during the State of the Union Address as President Joe Biden calls for police reform. But did he go far enough? Our guests weigh in. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[03:49:55] CHURCH: An emotional moment during the State of the Union Address, as cheers and a standing ovation welcome the parents of Tyre Nichols, who died after being beaten by police in Memphis last month. U.S. President Joe Biden spoke about gun violence and the need for police reform, saying we need to rise to this moment.

Joining me now, Matthew Littman and Cheryl Dorsey. Matthew is a former speech writer for then senator and presidential-candidate Joe Biden. And Cheryl is a retired Los Angeles police sergeant and author. Welcome to you both.

MATTHEW LITTMAN, FORMER BIDEN SPEECHWRITER: Thank you.

CHURCH: So, President Biden was expected to talk about police reform in his State of the Union Address, and he did exactly that, honoring the parents of Tyre Nichols, who was brutally beaten to death by Memphis police. But Cheryl Dorsey, did the president go far enough in calling for police accountability and reform?

CHERYL DORSEY, RETIRED, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT: No, he really didn't. And you know, the only thing he did do was, you know, honor these parents, rightfully so. He mentioned, and you have to pay attention to the words that are being used. Every time he talks about reform, he said that he's going to ban federal officers from doing certain things. But understand this. Federal officers did not murder Tyre Nichols. Federal officers did not sit on the neck of George Floyd, did not choke Eric Garner, did not shoot Breonna Taylor.

And so, all of what he might propose would stop nothing from happening on the local level. Police officers need to be deactivated in terms of certification on a local level like we do here in California, SB2, Police Deactivation Act of 2021, to get these officers off your police department and prevent them from moving over to another. That would be a great start sinc they won't end qualified immunity.

CHURCH: And Matthew Littman, you and I have spoken many times about America gun violence and of course the shocking number of mass shootings in this country, already at 69 this year. Do you think the president went far enough on the issue of better gun controls, which most Americans say they want to see more of?

LITTMAN: Well, I think most Americans want to see more of that. But, Rosemary, when the president talks about, for example, community engagement, yes, that's popular and it's proven to be successful so far. And assault weapons ban, I think your international audience may be surprised to know, does not have the majority support of the American people, according to "The Washington Post" this week.

Will not pass Congress, and the way that the courts are now, probably wouldn't get through the courts either. So, I think that there are other ways to reduce gun violence and I don't think we hit on a lot of them tonight.

CHURCH: Interesting. And Cheryl, you say that local police need to be deactivated. Talk to us about what more needs to be done in terms of better accountability for those police officers who use this excessive force, particularly when it comes to young men of color.

DORSEY: Well, certainly it's important. We understand, having seen what happened in Memphis, Tennessee, to have an appropriate number of supervisors out there managing and monitoring these officers who are on patrol and particularly assigned to special units, like the SCORPION Task Force.

You can't have officers out there were you've got citizens purportedly complaining about excessive use of force that go ignored, and then not have them properly supervised. They should be, those officers, very concerned about a sergeant like me rolling up on a stop like they did with Mr. Nichols. And so, when you don't have proper supervision, young officers who are not deterred from behaving badly, then it's a recipe for disaster.

CHURCH: Right. And Matthew, you mentioned that the public, the American public, are not behind the banning of assault weapons, which is very shocking. And as you say, our audience, certainly across the globe outside of the United States, would be shocked by that. So, what specific gun control legislation is working right now, and what is the smartest way to make sure that these guns, particularly assault weapons, don't end up in the hands of the wrong people, and particularly those with psychiatric issues?

LITTMAN: So, with my organization, it's 97 Percent, and we came up with a roadmap to reduce homicides with a gun by 28 percent and suicides by 6.7 percent. And the ways to do that, one of them is working a bit now, that's called red flag laws. We need more of them. We need them nationally. State background checks are better than federal background checks.

But for the president, when he's talking about an assault weapons ban, we can't get universal background checks passed through Congress. That has the support of anywhere from 89 to 97 percent of the country. So, if we're not getting that passed, we're definitely not getting assault weapons passed.

[03:54:58]

And what I would like to see is a more realistic assessment of what can be done, which is better gun training, for example, state background checks, red flag laws. And also, Rosemary, this is really important, people who commit violent misdemeanors are still able to get a gun. And most gun owners would say that they should not be able to get a gun. Most people in this country agree that if you've committed a violent misdemeanor, as opposed to a felony, which for that you can't get a gun.

A violent misdemeanor, you should not be able to get a gun. If we are able to do those things, we will reduce gun violence significantly. And I want to hear from people in a realistic sense like this of what can be done to reduce gun violence. Not ideas that are never going anywhere.

CHURCH: All, right we should watch to see if there is the political will when it comes to police reform and of course, gun control. Cheryl Dorsey, Matthew Littman, thank you to you both for joining us.

LITTMAN: Thank you very much.

CHURCH: And thank you for your company. I'm Rosemary Church. Stay with us, we'll have more news after a short break.

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