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Biden Ordered Downing Of Another "High-Altitude Object" Over Alaska; Pentagon Briefs After Shooting Down High-Altitude Object. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 10, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: And you're right, last week is a good example of that. We take that seriously, whether that's terrestrial related or whether it's from the air. And I think I'll just leave it at that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you be working, perhaps with Congress, to put in place legislation to prevent that kind of (inaudible) ...

KIRBY: We are always willing to work with Congress to address our national security interests and our - and threats as best we can.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: A couple more. We're actually running out of time. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Karine - thanks, Karine. Thanks, Admiral. So ...

JEAN-PIERRE: Oh, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, me? All right. Thank you. Thank you, Karine. Admiral, just real quick, is there a timeline for recovery of this object?

KIRBY: You'd have to talk to the Pentagon. I don't know. Again, guys, this just happened within the last, now, hour and a half. And they're still assessing where this thing landed and the degree to which they can get to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And on the Poland visit, I know in the statement that you put out, Karine, it says that the President is going to meet with leaders of the eastern flank NATO countries. Are any other European leaders, NATO leaders expected to join the President on this trip?

KIRBY: We're still putting the agenda together. The predominant reason to meet with them - the Bucharest Nine, as we call it - is to really talk to those nations who are literally on the eastern flank of the NATO Alliance, but I can't rule in or rule out that there may be additional attendees or additional meetings that the President might have.

JEAN-PIERRE: Go ahead, Sebastian.

SEBASTIAN: Thanks very much. Hello, John. Over here.

KIRBY: Yeah, thanks.

SEBASTIAN: Back to Lula - if can remember him - is there going to be any commitment to the Amazon Fund by the United States during this visit?

KIRBY: I think I'll - let's have the visit occur here shortly, and we'll be - provide you a readout. I don't have anything specific on that.

JEAN-PIERRE: Two more. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. So, John, the U.S. Special Presidential Coordinator for Global and Infrastructure Energy is in Angola. So he met with President Lourenco. Can you elaborate a little more on this visit?

KIRBY: I don't have any information on that. We'll take the question and see if we can get you a better answer.

JEAN-PIERRE: Go ahead, Karen.

KAREN: Just a quick one on the timeline. Was the President briefed on the object last night when the track first came to the ...

KIRBY: Yes.

KAREN: ... administration's attention?

KIRBY: He was. He was as soon as the Pentagon had enough information to provide him, they did that.

JEAN-PIERRE: Last question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ukraine?

JEAN-PIERRE: Go ahead. Go.

GOYAL: Thank you, madam. Thank you, John.

As far as Russia's war against Ukraine is concerned, one year now, does the President believe that when Prime Minister Modi of India told President Putin to 'stop the war' and 'this is not the way', that this time - that war should go like this? And do you think there is still time for Prime Minister Modi to stop the war or convince President Putin?

KIRBY: I think there's still time for Mr. Putin to stop the war. I think there's still time for Mr. Putin to stop the war.

GOYAL: Do you think Prime Minister Modi can convince?

KIRBY: I'll let the Prime Minister speak to whatever efforts he's willing to undertake.

I want to stress it again, Goyal: I mean, certainly, the United States would welcome any effort that could lead to an end of hostilities in Ukraine that are in keeping with President Zelenskyy's objectives and his leadership, his determination of what is acceptable to the Ukrainian people.

Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. So, President Biden has said this - gosh - dozens of times. We think this war could end today; it should end today.

The single person responsible for what the Ukrainian people are going through is Vladimir Putin. And he could stop it right now.

Instead, he's firing cruise missiles into energy and power infrastructure, and trying to knock out the lights and knock out the heat so the Ukrainian people suffer even more than they already have. He could end it right now.

And since he's not willing to do that, clearly, we've got to make sure we can help the Ukrainians succeed on the battlefield so that when President Zelenskyy determines it's time to negotiate - and he's the only one that can make that determination - he can do it with the strongest hand possible.

GOYAL: And finally, sir, 1.4 billion people in India are waiting for President Biden to welcome. When is the next trip or --

KIRBY: I don't have any travel, other than the travel that Karine talk to you today. I don't have any travel to announce.

JEAN-PIERRE: Thanks, Admiral.

GOYAL: Thank you, sir.

KIRBY: Thanks, guys. Have a good weekend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

JEAN-PIERRE: Thanks, Admiral.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: All right. There is a lot there. The breaking news that the President ordered the downing of another, as its described, high altitude object, the description from John Kirby there at the White House much smaller than the Chinese spy balloon of just a few days ago.

Remember that one was the size of three buses. This described as the size of a small car. Right now, they don't know if this is owned by China or state owned by some other country privately owned, owned by a corporation, but they say that the fighter jets got close enough to determine that it was unmanned. It was non-maneuverable, but flying at about 40,000 feet.

[15:05:00]

There's a lot to talk about. Let's bring in CNN's Chief International Anchor Christiane Amanpour; CNN Chief White House Correspondent, Phil Mattingly; CNN National Security Reporter, Natasha Bertrand; CNN National Security Correspondent, Kylie Atwood; and CNN Military Analyst retired Colonel Cedric Leighton. He's also a founding member of the CYFORIX global security consulting firm.

Let me start at the White House with you, Phil.

This breaking news was not in the prepared remarks from John Kirby. He went through the trip to Poland and the president of Brazil coming and other details about support for Turkey and Syria, but only in response to a question about a rumor was this disclosed.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor. The confirmation the trip to Poland was supposed to be the breaking news of this press conference. And you laid it out, this was not in prepared remarks. I think to some degree, that underscores just how quickly this came to pass over the course of the last hour and I think the timeline here is important as well.

When you track back, they said that they received information about this unidentified object. Last night the President was briefed shortly thereafter, fighter jets ended up flying next to this object first last night, then again this morning. And the big difference here between - well, there are a lot of differences here between what we saw with the alleged Chinese spy balloon and this unidentified object, also a significant number of questions was where it was flying.

And it was flying at 40,000 feet, the spy balloon had been at 60,000, 65,000, 70,000 feet. The 40,000 foot mark, according to John Kirby, the National Security Council spokesman, posed a threat to air traffic in the area. Once that was determined and as you noted, they determined that it was an unmanned flight, the Pentagon recommended and President Biden gave the order this morning to down the object.

It was downed about an hour, maybe 90 minutes ago. They do not have a lot of details on what that object is, besides the fact that it is significantly smaller than the alleged Chinese spy balloon. They do not know if there is any intelligence collection equipment on that.

They did assess that it poses no imminent military threat to individuals on the ground. But they also do not know who owns it. As you noted, I think that's a really critical point here. They don't know if it was a state actor, if it was private owned, if it was commercial.

So the big questions that are still outstanding, we'll hear from the Pentagon shortly, will need to be answered and likely won't be answered until recovering. I think that's another key piece of this, is it was shot down over water - where the water is frozen. They're in the process - just starting the recovery process now.

So a lot of unanswered questions, very clear differences from the balloon that was shot down literally just six days ago. But it's hard not to draw some comparisons here, particularly given the fact that it was almost immediately ordered to be shut down unlike the Chinese spy balloon, Victor.

BLACKWELL: We, of course, are standing by for that news conference from the Pentagon. We'll bring that to you live.

Christiane, up to you next.

Of course, the first potential culprit you look at is China after the balloon that crossed the U.S. just a couple of days ago. John Kirby says that he knows of no outreach to China and the latest reporting CNN has is that calls to China, outreach to China is going unanswered.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Yes, he did say that particularly about military to military outreach. He said, the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin had tried very hard to reach his Chinese counterpart over the previous object, which was actually a surveillance balloon, but to no end. He never got through and could not discuss.

But Kirby also said that, yes, they do have an embassy there, obviously. And diplomatic outreach is something that does happen. I was struck by how for almost an hour, Kirby gave almost no information, was not going to be drawn on any comparisons from this high altitude object to the one that they shot down over - off the East Coast of the United States.

Clearly the Pentagon is going to be able to recover the debris because as we've said over and over now, the one thing we do know is that it was shot down over frozen water: ice. It is not going to sink to the bottom of the sea and it will be easily recoverable. I think that's really important.

But I would also say that at a time when there is very high tension when this is all highly politicized as well within the United States, it's - it needs a little time to try to figure out exactly what it is. President Lula of Brazil is coming right now in the next 20 minutes to be received by President Biden here at the White House.

And in an interview with me, he told me that he wants to reach out to his fellow brick presidents i.e. China, Russia and the others, mostly on Ukraine. But clearly, he would have if President Biden talks to him about this, an opening to do so about this as well. So I think that's going to be interesting to see whether President Lula is sort of deputed if you like to try to bust through some of these unanswered phone calls.

BLACKWELL: Certainly. Let's go to Natasha Bertrand.

[15:10:00]

There's certainly a difference in the reaction from the White House from the military to this high altitude object as it's described, and the Chinese balloon several days ago. And the explanation we received from John Kirby was that - well, this one is not maneuverable, so that in part justifies also the height at which it was flying 40,000 feet, the threat to civilian aircraft.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, Victor. And it's also unclear whether they would have been able to track the path of this particular object as they have been with the surveillance balloons. As we reported earlier, the U.S. has developed a method to track the Chinese surveillance balloons in a way that would allow them to kind of monitor the path they take, but unclear whether they have the same kind of system for an object like this. It doesn't even sound like they are completely sure what the object is.

And also, this object, according to John Kirby, was at the mercy of prevailing winds. So it was very unpredictable. And it was unclear where it was actually going to go. And interestingly, he also mentioned that this object had a very small payload. That is compared to the payload of the Chinese surveillance balloon, of course, which was about the size of three buses, this one is only about the size of a small car.

So it sounds as though the U.S. is, of course, concerned that this could pose a risk to civilian aircraft just because it was flying at 40,000 feet, which is exactly really the height that the civilian aircraft flies at, but also because they couldn't communicate with the object in any way and tell it to move in a certain direction or have a clear idea of where it was going to go and so it seemed like this was the only option.

Now there were a lot of questions, of course, in that briefing about whether this is the new policy, right, if something unidentified enters U.S. airspace, is the President going to just automatically kind of ordered the Pentagon to develop options to shoot it down. And Kirby said we should not draw any particular conclusions from the way that these two past incidents were handled, but obviously, it is hard not to (inaudible) ...

BLACKWELL: Natasha, let me interrupt here. Let's go to the Pentagon.

BRIG. GEN. PAT RYDER, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Thanks very much for your patience while we were delayed a little bit. I have a few things to talk about up top and then we'll get right to your questions.

So first of all, to add to information already provided earlier by the White House, at the direction of the President of the United States, fighter aircraft assigned to U.S. Northern Command successfully took down a high altitude airborne object off the northern coast of Alaska at 1:45 pm Eastern Standard Time today within U.S. sovereign airspace over U.S. territorial water.

On February 9, North American Aerospace Defense Command detected an object on ground radar and further investigated and identified the object using fighter aircraft. The object was flying at an altitude of 40,000 feet and posed a reasonable threat to the safety of civilian flight.

U.S. Northern Command is beginning recovery operations now. U.S. Northern Command's Alaska Command coordinated the operation, with assistance from the Alaska Air National Guard, Federal Aviation Administration, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

We have no further details about the object at this time, including any description of its capabilities, purpose, or origin. The object was about the size of a small car, so not similar in size or shape to the high altitude surveillance balloon that was taken down off the coast of South Carolina on February 4. Separately, U.S. Northern Command continues their recovery operations in support of the recent takedown of the Chinese high altitude surveillance balloon. Recovery teams have mapped the debris field and are in the process of searching for and identifying debris on the ocean floor. Debris that's been recovered so far is being loaded onto vessels, taken ashore, catalogued, and then moved onwards to labs for subsequent analysis.

And while I won't go into specifics due to classification reasons, I can say that we have located a significant amount of debris so far that will prove helpful to our further understanding of this balloon and its surveillance capabilities. Of note, due to less than favorable sea states right now, teams will continue to conduct underwater survey and recovery as conditions permit.

The department wants to thank our interagency partners from the U.S. Coast Guard, the FBI, and state and local authorities for their continuing assistance and partnership.

In other news - and I think this is important, that we remember a lot of folks and people in Turkey and Syria right now are suffering. We want to, again, express our support for the people of Turkiye and Syria as they respond to the deadly earthquakes that struck there earlier this week.

In support of ongoing U.S. assistance efforts spearheaded by the U.S. Agency for International Development, U.S. European Command has positioned personnel, equipment, and a range of assets to aid the government of Turkiye in its continued search and rescue efforts. This includes the U.S. Navy's George H.W. Bush carrier strike group repositioning to the Eastern Mediterranean Sea to provide logistics, medical, and rotary air lift support if required.

[15:15:08]

Additionally, U.S. Army rotary wing aircraft began flying missions out of Incirlik Air Base in Turkiye on February 7 to transport first responders to the most affected populations, and on February 8th, UH- 60 Black Hawks transported injured civilians to a local medical facility.

U.S. European Command has designated U.S. Naval Forces Europe and Africa as the lead component command overseeing the EUCOM humanitarian assistance and disaster relief efforts within Turkiye. To aid in that coordination, U.S. Marine Corps Brig. Gen. Andrew Priddy, U.S. Naval Amphibious Forces Europe Commander and Second Marine Expeditionary Brigade Commanding General arrived in Turkiye February 9 to lead military coordination efforts with U.S. agencies involved in the humanitarian aid and disaster relief efforts.

We'll continue to provide you with updates as we receive them. EUCOM will be issuing a press release with further details, but again, we offer our thoughts and prayers to the people of Turkiye and Syria during this tragic and difficult time.

And finally, Secretary Austin welcomed Canadian Minister of National Defense Anand for a bilateral meeting here in the Pentagon today. The Secretary expressed his thanks and appreciation to Minister Anand for the cooperation rendered by Canada in tracking the PRC high altitude surveillance balloon that violated the sovereignty of both of our countries. During the meeting, both leaders reaffirmed the close defense relationship between the United States and Canada and a readout will be available later today on defense.gov.

And with that, I will take your questions. We'll start with Associated Press, Tara Copp.

TARA COPP, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Hi, thank you for doing this. A couple of questions on this latest shoot down. First, what type of U.S. fighter aircraft were used and what type of munition did they fire? And do you already have Navy assets or Coast Guard assets out involved in the recovery process? And then I have a few more.

RYDER: Thanks, Tara. So the aircraft that took down the object was an F-22 flying out of Joint Base Elmendorf in Alaska and employed an AIM- 9X to take down the object.

In terms of assets that are currently involved, in terms of recovery, we have HC-130, HH-60 and CH-47 aircraft participating in that recovery effort.

COPP: Okay. You mentioned there was a reasonable threat. Was there also a threat to potentially this object detecting some of our more sensitive radar capabilities that are based in Alaska? And then what hasn't been said is where this object has come from, is there any indication that this was also a Chinese surveillance balloon, object, whatever it is?

RYDER: Yeah, so at this point, we don't know the origin of the object. Again, we will know more once we're able to potentially recover some of those materials, but the primary concern, again, was the potential hazard to civil flight. And so again, we'll know more later. Thank you.

COPP: So no perceived threat to any of the radar installations that we have based in Alaska?

RYDER: Again, right now, we'll know more once we assess it. I'll just leave it at that. Thank you.

Liz?

LIZ: What made this ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) ...

LIZ: Thank you.

Thanks for taking my question. What made this threatening enough to shoot down? What is different about this object than the last object that was over Alaska? Because it was chosen not to shoot the last one down over Alaska. RYDER: Yeah, so, the important thing to understand here is anytime we detect anything, we're going to, first of all, observe it and then make a decision and take appropriate action. So you have to look at each individual case on its own merits.

In this particular case, given the fact that it was operating at an altitude that posed a reasonable threat to civilian air traffic, the determination was made and the President gave the order to take it down.

LIZ: Was there a specific threat - specific civilian air traffic incident that could have happened?

RYDER: Again, out - as you well know, civilian aircraft operate at a variety of ranges, up to 40,000 to 45,000 feet. So again, there was a reasonable concern that this could present a threat to or a potential hazard to civilian air traffic.

So let me ...

LIZ: ... just one more question.

RYDER: Yep.

LIZ: Has Secretary Austin reached out to his Chinese counterpart or any other counterparts at all since this has been tracked?

RYDER: Since this particular object? No.

Let me go here and then I'll come over to Oren.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now that the (inaudible) things from the previous balloon had been recovered, what additional information you have now about the capabilities of that balloon?

RYDER: Yes, so we're continuing to assess that.

[15:20:02]

Again, I'm not able to go into more detail, other than in addition to learning a lot about the balloon and the capabilities that it has while it was over the continental United States, we have identified or located a significant amount of debris on the ocean floor that will be very beneficial to us learning more about it, but at this point in time, I'm not going to have more details.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) manufacture label on these equipments or the balloons indicated they're all manufactured in China and sourced from China?

RYDER: Again, I'm not going to have details to provide at this point in time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It also say that 39 ...

RYDER: Last question. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... yeah, 39 other countries have indicated they have seen balloons in their territory. Are you sharing those information from the Pentagon to these countries on the capabilities, how you shot them down?

RYDER: So in terms of what we're learning about these balloons, I know the State Department has talked to this, in terms of our international outreach. Certainly, the Department of Defense plays a role in those relationships. And so we will continue to work with our allies and partners to share information, along with our State Department colleagues.

Let me go to Oren.

OREN: Two questions. First, did this object show any signs of maneuverability or propulsion?

And then you and other Pentagon officials made a big deal about how much intelligence was gathered by letting the other one float across much of the United States, and yet you shot this one down before it enter the United States. Is that the Pentagon bowing to political pressure? Was there nothing to gain from this one?

RYDER: Yeah, so again, we're going to judge each of these on its merits. No indication at this time that it was maneuverable, but again, we'll know more.

And in terms of entering the United States, it did enter U.S. airspace and we took it down.

OREN: Did you gain intelligence from this one as you did from the previous one?

RYDER: We're going to recover what we can from this, and more to follow.

OREN: And was the decision to shoot it down before it entered too far into the air - U.S. airspace the Pentagon bowing to political pressure from the Hill?

RYDER: Look, again, we're going to judge each of these objects on its own merits. It entered into U.S. airspace on February 9th. We sent up aircraft to assess what it was. The decision was made that it posed a reasonable threat to civilian air traffic. The President gave the order to take it down and we took it down. Thank you.

LAURA (ph): --and then I'll go to Dan.

DAN: Can you - oh, thanks. I'm sorry. Thanks for taking my question.

So a couple of questions. First of all, has anything like this happened before with a object of this size, this shape, in this particular height for - the 40,000 foot range? Has that - has it happened before?

And then second of all, how - why did you - can you say more about why you knew the - that last balloon or object was from China, whereas this one, you don't know?

RYDER: So in terms of this particular object, again, as I highlighted, we don't know where it's from. It posed a reasonable threat to civilian air traffic and so the determination was made to take it down.

In terms of the other balloon, as I mentioned in our previous briefing, we have learned a lot about the Chinese surveillance high altitude balloon program. We've gathered a lot of information over the last couple of years, and so we were able to - based on that information - detect at a very early stage as it approached U.S. air space we had a good understanding of what it was.

As I mentioned, we were able to monitor that closely, track it while it went over the continental United States, learn a lot about it and take it down at the appropriate time.

DAN: So would you urge us to put this in a different bucket than that or should we (inaudible) ...

RYDER: Yes, I think I was pretty clear. This was traveling at about 40,000 feet, which posed a potential - a reasonable threat to civilian air traffic and the decision was made to take it down.

So Dan.

DAN: When the pilot - when the pilots approached it and they've determined, I understand, that it was not manned, how did they determine that and at that point wouldn't it be possible to at least described what they were looking at? Did it resemble a balloon or an airplane or what?

RYDER: Again, we'll know more and have more information once we've recovered this. I - we'll give credit to our pilots, that they are very capable in terms of looking at an object, assessing whether or not this had the potential to be manned at that altitude, something that small, very, very unlikely that it was manned, and so again, no indication that it was manned, presented a potential reasonable threat to civilian air traffic, and we took it down.

DAN: What speed was it traveling at, by the way?

RYDER: I don't have that information.

DAN: On the Chinese balloon, if we could go back ...

RYDER: Mm-hm.

DAN: Is it still, in the Pentagon's view, plausible or maybe even likely that it was not necessarily intentional when that balloon turned and blew eastward, that it seemed to have not lost some - had some technical problem?

[15:25:04]

RYDER: Yes. So Dan, what I would tell you is based on the information that we have. It was being maneuvered and purposefully driven along its track.

Again, recognizing that winds do play a role because of the maneuverability of the balloon, it's our assessment that this was a purposeful mission.

In terms of the Chinese motivations, again, I'd have to refer you back to China to talk about that.

Ma'am and then I'll come to Nancy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Sorry, got it.

We emailed you police body camera footage showing a National Guard General in Ohio pushing my colleague and having to be escorted away from him this week.

We asked the Ohio National Guard for comment, but do you as a spokesperson for the Department of Defense condone such conduct by a commissioned officer of the U.S. Military against an American journalist?

RYDER: Yes. So let me be clear, the answer is no. That's not acceptable behavior. The Secretary of Defense, the Department of Defense absolutely supports - strongly supports a free and independent press.

So again, I'd refer you to the Ohio National Guard for any comment about that particular incident, but I can assure you that that is not acceptable behavior.

DAN: Is - any kind of conduct unbecoming charge under the UCMJ or ...

RYDER: Again, I'd have to refer you to them. I'm not going to make those kind of policy comments here from the podium in terms of what they may or may not be doing to address it. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on that.

Let me go to Nancy.

NANCY: I just had a couple clarifying questions. You said that the pilots were able to see it, that it wasn't the same shape or size as the balloon. Can you say definitively it was not a balloon?

RYDER: I don't - at this point considering the fact that we're still assessing the object, I don't want to get into characterizing it, so I'll just leave it at that.

NANCY: You mentioned you didn't know how fast it was traveling. Can you say if it was traveling faster or slower than the balloon?

RYDER: I don't have that information in front of me, so I don't want to make it up.

NANCY: I'll try a couple more. Did anyone try to, within the administration, contact their Chinese counterparts before the decision was made to shoot it down? RYDER: In terms of when you say the administration, if you're referring to the White House, I'd have to refer you to them. The Department of Defense to my knowledge did not. Again, we don't know the point of origin of this object, so. Yes.

NANCY: And was there any effort to jam or somehow disable this object before, such that it posed less of a threat?

RYDER: I don't want to get into the specific tactics or techniques that we may or may not use when observing these types of things. Again, NORAD sent up aircraft to observe, to see what it was, and then the ultimate decision was made based on the reasonable threat to civilian air traffic to take it down. So thank you.

Tony (ph)?

TONY: A couple things. You mentioned you've recovered a significant or located a significant amount of debris. Is it fair to say you've located a significant amount of the payload?

RYDER: You're talking about the PRC high altitude balloon?

TONY: This one today.

RYDER: So Tony (ph), at this point, I'm not able to go into more detail other than we've - what I would describe - we've discovered or located a significant amount of the debris associated with the balloon.

Again, we'll have more details to follow, but I'll just leave it at that.

TONY: You've located, but you haven't recovered and took - pulled it out of the ocean for forensic analysis, is that right?

RYDER: Yes, so good - great point. So the way that - the way to understand how this is unfolding is as we map out the area where the debris field would be, it enables us to figure out where are the places that we need to prioritize the search, recognizing that we're talking a wide area.

And so as that happens, divers are able to go down and depending on the size of the debris, they're able to tag it.

So debris that can be brought up quickly is brought up, put on a vessel, taken ashore. Debris that's going to take more time, and again, especially given the current sea states, it may take a little longer. We know where it is, so we tag it, and then we'll go back and eventually recover all of that and bring it up.

TONY: (Inaudible) the equivalent is you've found the Titanic but you don't - you haven't started pulling up the debris yet from it.

RYDER: Exactly. Exactly.

TONY: I'm going to ask you about the overall program. You said you've been learning a lot about this balloon program over the last couple years, yet the annual China report doesn't have a peep about balloons in there.

[15:30:00]

You've spent a lot of money and effort, but no balloons.

RYDER: Yes.

TONY: We learned about Taiwan and China's balance of power against them, and satellites and jets, but no balloons.

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