Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Pentagon: Object Just Shot Down Alaska Appeared Unmanned; Pentagon: Object Over Alaska Posed Threat to Civilian Aircraft; FBI Removes One Document Marked Classified from Mike Pence's Home. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 10, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You spend a lot of money and effort but no balloons. We land Taiwan and China's balance of power against the satellites and jets but no balloons. Why not?

BRIG. GEN. PAT RYDER, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: So, what I would say on the unclassified China power report, right. There's going to be certain elements, intelligence aspects in the unclassified version that may not be included in that particular report. In terms of what's in that report and what's not in that report, again, we can go back and look at that, but I can tell you, I can assure you that there are a lot of activities that we continue to monitor to include this balloon program, and we've learned a lot the last couple of years. Okay I'm trying to hear a press conference with people speaking to all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the classified version has balloons in it --

RYDER: I'd have to go back and look. I do not know the answer to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

RYDER: Thanks. Let me get a couple other folks here. Mike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only reason the American people know about the first balloon is because a couple of guys in Montana spotted it and it leaked out. My question is if it had remained secret and did not become a spectacle and arguably an embarrassment to the White House, would you have shot it down or allowed it to continue on its way.

RYDER: You're asking me to speculate? So, Mike, I'll kind of just push back a little bit at the assertion there. So first of all, again, what made this balloon different was the length and duration that it was over the continental United States.

Look, we track activities all over the globe on a daily basis. Some of which will remain classified because, again, we don't want to reveal sources and methods. In this particular case I can tell you that there were efforts under way to make that public. You know, Montana journalist reporting notwithstanding. All that to say, look, there's going to be times when there's activities happening that we're monitoring that we're not going to go public, especially if it doesn't present a particular -- or pose a significant threat to the American public.

But again, as we monitored that balloon, there was an effort under way to ensure that folks understood what this was, especially given how visible it was. I'll just stop there. Thank you. Yes, ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, general. First, a really quick follow- up on Tony's question. At this point is the Pentagon reassessing the need for counter-balloon or counter-object capabilities at that altitude at this time?

RYDER: So, what I would tell you is not, you know, -- in the Air Force sometimes we talk about don't get platform specific, right. So, what we're talking about is monitoring the domain and having domain awareness. And again, as I highlighted -- it seems like a couple of days ago, probably last week -- we're continuing to learn more and more about this program which enables us to identify and track objects. And so -- and thus ensure that we're continuing to protect our skies and our airspace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then real quick, first, do you and Admiral Kirby know the shape of this new object? And if so, what is sort of the reason for why you can't share its shape before it was shot down? And then separately, how is the recovery efforts of this new object downed over ice different from the one used over the coast and water and are you guys using unmanned systems for this new object as well?

RYDER: Yes, thank you, so in terms of the shape, I don't know. I have not seen any imagery of it. I'm just telling you the verbal characteristics as was described to me. In terms of the difference in the recovery effort. I mean, again, so this was literally was -- what -- an hour and a half, two hours ago, so that's under way right now, so more to follow on that front.

Right now, I think they're moving to the site. We'll have more to follow in the days ahead. Let me go to a few other folks here, sorry. Some new folks back here and then over here to mike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned that the object was spotted yesterday. Is that the first that we saw it? Or did we see it coming in a couple of days before?

RYDER: No, it was spotted yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And follow up, did what we -- what we learned about the first balloon last week, did that help us detect this object?

RYDER: I would say that, again, we detect -- when we detect objects -- let me just back up. What you're asking is did what we learned from the PRC balloon help us track this. Kind of a little bit of apples and oranges, right. In terms of NORAD NORTHCOM maintains the ability to track objects. So again, they tracked this as it approached and entered into U.S. airspace. Again, we're still assessing what this object was.

[15:35:00]

So, I don't know that we learned anything new as a result of that other than, again, I think we're all, to include the media and the public, very attuned to balloons at the moment. So, thank you. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir. And just to clarify, so this was first identified when it flew into U.S. airspace, is that correct? Or was it identified before?

RYDER: It was detected yesterday, and again NORAD sent up aircraft to observe it, see what it was, and the decision was made to take it down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you have any information whether this object flew over any other sovereign nations or countries?

RYDER: I do not. Do not. I have time for a few more. Let me go to Joe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Question about the recovery effort. I think you had mentioned at the outset that it was going to involve rotary wing aircraft. That's because it landed on ice as opposed to water, that's why there's watercraft being used is it?

RYDER: Yes, Joe, we'll get you more information on that front. You know, again, this happened just a short while ago, and so according to NORTHCOM, these are the assets that were being used to go out and do the initial recovery. But we'll have more information in terms of the various roles and responsibilities of those.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to get down in the weeds for a second, any idea what units are involved in the recovery effort the F-22 that shot it down?

RYDER: We can get you that information. Thanks. Phil.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey there, just a couple of clarification questions. First off, when you first identified it, was it traveling at the same altitude, around 40,000 feet? Did you at that point know its velocity? And secondly, doesn't NORTHCOM have the authority on its own to shoot down unidentified objects entering U.S. airspace if they pose a threat to civilian air traffic? And if so, then why was the president's authorization required in this case?

RYDER: Yes, thanks. So, my understanding is that it was at 40,000 feet when it was detected and ultimately taken down. The NORAD NORTHCOM commander does not have the authority necessarily to take down an object if it's not posing a potential hostile intent or actions. However, given the fact that this aircraft was -- excuse me -- this object was operating at an altitude that posed a reasonable threat to civilian air traffic, after consultation with the secretary and the president and of course the president on our advice gave the order to take it down and we took it down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To clarify, is his authorization required in a situation like this? RYDER: Again, it's kind of a moot point at this point because the

president gave the order. But he has the authorization to take action against anything that presents a potential threat to the American public or people on the ground. In this particular case it was determined that this posed a reasonable threat to air traffic. Again, I'll just leave it at that. Thanks. Tara.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a couple of clarifiers. Was it a single F-22 or a pair that were up today for the shot? And then when the -- when NORAD sent the initial aircraft up to see, was there any sort of hailing or any type of warning given typically when an aircraft makes an incursion protected airspace, there's a whole lot of procedures that have to be followed before it would escalate to something like this.

RYDER: OK, so this was an object, right, so it wasn't an aircraft per se. And to answer your earlier question, it was a two ship of F-22s but one aircraft took the shot. We've got time for one more. I'll go to Liz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really quick. When it was started to be tracked last night, were you able to tell what direction it was coming from?

RYDER: This was travel in a northeasterly direction when it was taken down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then one more. The aircrafts that were observing it, what type of aircrafts were those?

RYDER: I'll have to come back to you. I think I know but I don't want to make it up from the podium so we'll come back to you on that one. OK, thank you very much, everybody. I appreciate it.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Brigadier general Pat Ryder there, the spokesman at the Pentagon. I think we learned some important details there about this high-altitude object that was just shot down. The first one I highlighted in my notes is that it was shot down at 1:45 p.m. So, under two hours ago this at the president's order was shot down near Alaska.

[15:40:00]

We also learned some details about when it was first discovered. First discovered last evening and then they decided that this object -- they're not calling it a balloon and not saying it isn't a balloon -- was taken down just about an hour and 50 minutes ago.

Let's bring back Natasha Bertrand, Kylie Atwood, CNN Military Analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton and also join us retired U.S. Army Major Mike Lyons. Colonel, let me start with you. The details that we're getting do not answer the big questions, what exactly it is? Who is the owner of this object? Considering that they knew about it last night, only shot it down less than two hours ago and they have not yet retrieved that. Should we know more now? Should they know more than they do?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Victor, it's in this particular case probably not. You know, there's always the fog of war and in this case the fog of the incident. And what we're dealing with is a situation where in the wake of the balloon incident that happened, you know, just six days ago or so, now we're looking at something that's very, you know, perhaps a little bit different but what similar. And so, out of an abundance of political caution, the craft was taken out because it posed -- as General Ryder said, it posed a threat to civilian aircraft and could possibly have also been some type of a collection platform. We don't know that yet, but they decided they didn't want to take this chance again. And as a result, we have what we have at the moment.

BLACKWELL: Kylie Atwood to you. The question of who's responsible. The words that still stick with me are from John Kirby and he said I have no idea who owns this. What do you know about the efforts happening right now potentially to find that out? Of course, the first country that most people think of is China, considering that balloon that just passed over the U.S. a couple of days ago.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. I would think it's fair to say that there is a widespread effort to figure out where this came from and who owns it. Because as you said, you know, multiple officials saying today from the White House and the Pentagon, the U.S. doesn't know if this is state owned or this is privately owned. So, they're really trying to figure out who owns this and where it came from. Because they first detected it just yesterday when it came, you know, close and then into U.S. airspace.

I do think that there's one significant thing to point out here, which is that with the Chinese spy balloon, there was a number of contacts between U.S. diplomats and Chinese diplomats before the Biden administration took the move to shoot it down off the coast of South Carolina. The fact that there hasn't been any back-and-forth with China -- according to the White House on this -- does indicate that perhaps they don't think it is Chinese owned. But of course, they aren't counting out anything right now.

And what we'll be watching for is the contacts, particularly on the diplomatic front, to inform allies about what happened here and try and work with Five Eyes -- those are partners that we share intelligence with to figure out what those countries might know that could help us, in addition to what's going to be this effort on the ground. This obviously went down over -- this was over, you know, frozen water, so it's going to be a very different excavation effort. But that will probably be their best shot at figuring out the answers to many of these questions we don't know right now.

BLACKWELL: Let's bring in Oren Liebermann our Pentagon correspondent who is there in the briefing. Oren, the Pentagon -- also at the White House there -- very careful not to describe this balloon. In part General Ryder said simply because he does not know. But we're learning that it is not similar in size or shape to that Chinese surveillance balloon that was shot down last week. What stood out to you from what we just heard from the Pentagon?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Correct. Significant differences simply in how they describe this. Obviously, we said many times the previous object was about the length of three buses. The balloon itself some 200 some feet tall. Nothing near that size in terms of the object that was shot down. And Pentagon press secretary Brigadier General Pat Ryder was very careful not to describe this in any way other than saying, it was a small car size object and it was unmanned.

There wasn't much beyond in terms of how it was moving, did it have any propulsion or any sort of moveability. So, there are obviously a tremendous number of questions in what this was. Frankly what it looked like despite the fact U.S. fighter jets and fighter pilots had eyes on this since it was first spotted and then what it was doing. Right at the end of the press conference, the Pentagon said it was moving in a northeasterly direction. It had been spotted yesterday and they kept an eye on it since then.

Eventually the decision was made to shoot it down. It had been roughly at the same altitude throughout the time the U.S. had eyes on it, so with 40,000 feet. Which is the upper edge of commercial air traffic. And that Brigadier General Pat Ryder said is why the decision was ultimately made to shoot this down.

[15:45:02]

One of the key questions we asked is -- the Pentagon made a big point of this, Ryder himself and others as well, that there was a benefit to having the other balloon fly across much of the continental United States in terms of intelligence gathering. If that's the case, why was this one shot down so quickly before there was any attempt at intelligence gathering? Because the Pentagon described in great terms how much intelligence they gained from the previous balloon.

In this case the Pentagon simply said that every decision on every individual object or every scenario like this will be decided on an individual basis. And in this case partially because of the threat to civilian aircraft, the decision was made to shoot this one down.

Right at the ending we also got into question of the authorities to carry out something like this. The NORTHCOM NORAD commander would generally have the authority to take out or call a fighter jet to take out an unidentified balloon over U.S. airspace. But Ryder said because this doesn't pose an threat to anybody below or an imminent threat to national security, the decision went up to the president. Well, President Joe Biden gave his approval in that case.

Also, worth noting -- as I suspect others have noted before if you were listening to the press conference -- it was the same type of aircraft and same type of missile that was used to shoot this object down.

BLACKWELL: Major Lyons, certainly we're trying to get as many details about this object, about the decision to take it down as possible. But can we just zoom out for a minute. This is the second time in, what, ten days now that an object has been discovered in U.S. airspace. The first one a Chinese spy balloon shot down. Still so many questions about this one. What's your reaction to the breaking news that we just learned minutes ago, and now just two hours ago this thing was shot down?

MAJ. MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, Victor, it tells me that they have changed their protocol. And the fact that they're going to notify the administration or put the message out up front and quickly decide and engage these targets. And in a post-9/11 world that's really the only thing they can do.

You know, that comment the Pentagon makes about, you know, we wanted to see the last spy balloon travel across the United States and get intelligence from it just frankly doesn't pass the red face test. So, I think this is a message that they're sending out to the world that we've got domain capability now to see this. It was at 40,000 feet, that was commercial airliners. But when the NORAD commander last week said, you know, the last balloon showed some, you know, domain weaknesses, that's a problem. We usually don't tell our enemies where those gaps are. So I think this is a message that was sent by the Pentagon. They changed their protocol. They're going to do this from now on. This is going to be normal course of business if things violate our airspace.

BLACKWELL: Colonel, back to you. I'm going to ask you a question that I assume maybe is tough to answer. But based on the description we have, this is the size of a small car. It was about 40,000 feet. Non- maneuverable. And when people hear small car, don't think of the dense of the car, think of just the size of it. Is there anything that you think that this could be, likely is, we can rule out that this item was?

LEIGHTON: Yes, that's a great question, Victor. I think that, you know, one of the possibilities might be that it is actually a weather balloon so we can't rule that out completely. The key thing that I focused on was that apparently this object did not have the kind of connective capability that the balloon did. So that becomes a very different issue. And you know, to what Major Lyons was saying, this -- there is a big difference from an intelligence collection perspective. It actually is OK in some cases to collect the information, see how it actually talks to other entities.

In this particular case you have a bit of a different situation where it didn't talk to anything, but you don't know what kind of a threat it poses except for the fact that you know it is a threat to commercial aviation.

BLACKWELL: Natasha, to you and the intersection of the military and politics here. I think Oren's question is fair, considering that the argument to let the Chinese balloon go across the country and then shoot it down, you can collect something from it, one has to question the potency of the criticism of the administration for not shooting it down early on when it was discovered, that Chinese balloon, and if that influenced the decision today.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: It's an absolutely fair question, Victor. And I think we should recap a little bit all of the furor that's happened over the past week from Republicans mainly who have wanted to know from the Biden administration why they didn't shoot down that first Chinese spy balloon when they saw that it was on a path towards entering U.S. airspace.

[15:50:00]

We know Alaskan lawmakers in particular have been pretty angry with the Biden administration for allowing this balloon to cross over Alaska and then just deciding that they were going to watch and monitor it because they did not think that it would actually enter the lower 48. So that obviously has been taken by the Biden administration. They have been listening to that criticism. It is completely unclear at point of course, whether this was a decision was made with that criticism in mind.

But it's also important to note here that we still do not know whether this item or this device actually has any kind of intelligence value. It was unmanned, so it didn't pose any kind of risk to any human being inside the object to shoot is down. But also, you know, it didn't pose any threats to -- appear to pose any threat to anyone on the ground. And it was traveling at an altitude that, you know, could have posed a threat to civilian aircraft.

So, there really was not as much of a choice here in what they were going to do as they had with the balloon which was traveling at around 65,000 feet and did not appear to pose a real threat to any civilians really either in the air or on the ground. So different situations here. I think it will be clearer once we actually are able to see during these recovery efforts what this is, whether it was the correct decision.

BLACKWELL: Yes. We've also learned from the FAA that they issued a temporary flight restriction in the area of Deadhorse, Alaska, as the military took that action, we're told at 1:45 p.m., to shoot down this -- what's described as a high-altitude object.

Let's bring in David Sanger, CNN political and national security analyst. And I want to bring that question to you. We heard from the general -- Brigadier General Pat Ryder that there that these are treated independently of one another. But does it appear to you that the reaction to this -- when based on what we know, and there are still lots of questions -- the reaction to this object is potentially a correction by the White House for its reaction to the Chinese spy balloon?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think there probably was. It's hard to imagine that they necessarily would have shot this down had they not been through that experience.

You know, think the most important thing we heard was that they didn't hear or see the kind of transmissions going on between this new object, you know, back to satellites and so forth, that they did a week ago with the balloon. And that tells you it may well not have been a spying operation. It may well have been something else, a weather balloon or something else. So, their rationale for taking it down is threat to the aircraft. I'm not sure the rationale is the same as the reason for taking it down. BLACKWELL: Well, let's talk about the rationale, I'll bring in Tom

Foreman. And this was flying at 40,000 feet. I talked about the FAA temporary flight restriction. Talk about the importance of that elevation as we hear the justification for shooting it down.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's 10,000 and above where you would normally find a commercial jet flying. So, yes, it's sort on the edge there. Flights are changing altitude for any reason. There can be concern about that. Also, based on what we heard a short while ago, moving northeast would have been moving out of U.S. air space, possibly into Canadian or international airspace depending on exactly where it was, we don't know.

We do know this, if they shot it down at the time they say that would have been around the time you really had early morning up in this area. Remember you're far up in the arctic there. You don't have terribly long days. But they would have been shooting it down around first light. That would give them five, six hours or so, maybe longer when you consider the sort of twilight light that you get when you're up in the area this time of year, to actually look for it on the ground there.

And they say on the ice, on the Beaufort Sea, ice is the condition much of the year that goes out pretty far. So, assuming they have a good idea where it came down from that 40,000, they do have several hours to get out there and track it down. Although one caution in all that, it's minus 21 degrees Fahrenheit right now. Challenging conditions no matter how you look at it.

BLACKWELL: All right, challenging indeed. Tom Foreman, thank you for that. Thank you, everyone.

We've got more breaking news -- another classified document found at former Vice President Mike Pence's home. We got the latest ahead.

[15:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: This just in -- an FBI search of former Vice President Mike Pence's Indiana home turned up one document marked classified. The FBI agents there spent several hours searching Pence's house in Carmel, Indiana today. A Pence spokesperson also said six additional pages without nose classified markings were also removed from the VP's house. CNN Katelyn Polantz is with us now. So, what more are you learning about this document?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Victor, right now this document, we don't know what it is exactly, we don't know what level of classification it is. And we don't know why it wasn't discovered before in Mike Pence's Indiana home. But we do know now that the FBI after an unrestricted search of that home outside Indianapolis, they were there for five hours, and they did remove one classified document that was found today, plus an additional six pages of documents without classified markings on them. The FBI has taken that back and will be looking at it. But right now, all of this is coming because there is a lot of

attention being paid to former high-ranking officials of the federal government, why they may have documents in their possession after leaving office. Obviously there's a criminal investigation around Donald Trump and documents kept at Mar-a-Lago after his presidency. Joe Biden having classified records in his private home in an office from his vice presidency. Then the Pence team, an attorney for Mike Pence had gone into the home out of abundance of caution and looked for documents found, about 12 in January.

And so the FBI was expected to do a search like this today to make sure whether or not there were other classified records there, they went in, did the search, and did find an additional record now. The Justice Department at this time is going to have to make some decisions about what this means. Is everything secured now? Are they going to be doing another search of an office of Mike Pence in Washington, D.C.? That is expected in the coming days.

And then of course what do they do now that they have found additional classified material? Is there going to be a criminal investigation here just as there is now with Donald Trump and as there is with Joe Biden, with special counsels looking at both of those situations.

Today we did get a statement from Governor O'Malley, a spokesperson for Mike Pence.

He said: The vice president has directed his legal team to continue his cooperation with appropriate authorities and to be fully transparent through the conclusion of this matter.

So, they are putting out that information, and we are learning this has been a really big week for Mike Pence. He had some grandchildren born, and he also has been subpoenaed in a January 6th criminal investigation.

[16:00:00]

A lot going on, Victor.

BLACKWELL: A lot, yes, there is. Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for the reporting.

President Biden just weighed in on the unidentified object shot down over Alaska. He says it was a success. Earlier this afternoon the White House announced that the president will be going to Poland ahead of the one-year anniversary of the war with Ukraine, between Russia and Ukraine.

"THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.