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WH: Latest Objects Posed "Very Real" Threat To Air Traffic; Death Toll Surpasses 36,200 in Turkey And Syria. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 13, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The one in Canada occurred overland. So, is it effective U.S. policy to not shoot down these objects over land for safety concerns?

JOHN KIRBY, NSC COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: I wouldn't read into this some kind of policy decision. We will always in deciding whether something should be taken down or not considering the impact on the ground.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the Chinese ruling came down, the Chinese Foreign Ministry indicated they would respond in the way that they were prepared to do. If it turns out that the other objects are also Chinese in origin is the -- is there a menu of options prepared for the president for how we'd react?

KIRBY: Terrific hypothetical. We're just not there yet.

JEAN-PIERRE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, I'd like a relationship issue. You have the Chinese spire ship that went through you. You got China buying more oil from Russia, you've got China you know opening up cases in the U.S. trying to steal U.S. technology from universities.

Now, the -- Xi -- President Xi is going to be meeting with the Iranian president, at what point you were review -- a big review of the U.S. relationship with China, and what one point does the president ask for a call from President Xi?

KIRBY: Again, I don't have a call to talk about today. Let me just -- again, level set here. And I know I'm running close on time, but --

JEAN-PIERRE: Yes.

KIRBY: -- sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we will always laugh here.

KIRBY: But the president met with President Xi at Bali, at the G-20. The whole purpose of that discussion was to move this relationship forward in a better way. The most consequential bilateral relationship in the world, the president knows that. And he wanted to move that relationship forward in a better way.

And Secretary Blinken was dang near wheels up trying to head to Beijing to have those kinds of conversations to get some of these communication vehicles and venues back on track, whether it's climate change or military to military.

We were willing to do that. We were looking forward to doing that. And then the Chinese decided to fly a surveillance balloon over the continental United States. And it wouldn't be an appropriate to have that meeting.

When these -- when are those discussions going to get back on the calendar? I couldn't tell you. As you -- as Secretary Blinken has said it will happen at the -- at the -- at the appropriate time. Now is not that time.

It doesn't mean, and people shouldn't take away from this that all communication has been severed between the United States and China, that Beijing and Washington aren't talking. We still have an embassy there. We still have an ability through Secretary Blinken's good offices to communicate with senior Chinese leaders.

Unfortunately, the Chinese military is not interested in talking to the Secretary of Defense, Austin but there are still ways to communicate. And the president would tell you that now's exactly the time to at least preserve some of those lines of communication so that we can avoid miscalculation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that was a setback the relationship.

KIRBY: I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has this all, this list of things that back the relation?

KIRBY: It is certainly not helped us move forward in the way that we want it to move.

JEAN-PIERRE: All right, last question in the back, and then that's going to be the last question for the evening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much --

JEAN-PIERRE: No, sir. No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Perhaps --

JEAN-PIERRE: No. Right here -- right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Al, (PH) thank you. Listen, last Friday, you answered my question about President Biden's message during his trip to Poland. But I'm wondering why he specifically chose Poland for this trip since so many countries are helping Ukraine and he visited Poland 11 months ago.

KIRBY: The president's really looking forward to this trip. Certainly not lost, I'm sure on any of you that it's time to round what sadly is going to be a year of war in Ukraine.

Poland has been a strident ally, a tremendous supporter of Ukraine, and a generous host not only to American troops but millions of Ukrainian refugees who have fled there in safety. The Poles are, pardon the pun, but they're punching well above their weight, and we very much appreciate all the support.

The president wants to thank President Duda in person. He wants to thank the Polish people in person. He wants to make broader points about how it's important for the kind of courage and unity we're seeing out of Poland and so many NATO allies continue sadly into what will now be a second year of war.

JEAN-PIERRE: All right, I think we have the last question.

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(INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. thank you very much. Thank you, Karine. And thank you, Admiral. Naturally, I have two questions. one on the unexplained aerial phenomena and the second will be on the Russia- Ukraine war.

My understanding is that the top officials of the Pentagon when asked explicitly if they were ruling out any kind of extraterrestrial presence, said they weren't ruling anything out, and yet at the beginning of today's briefing, albeit with her usual winning smile, Miss Jean-Pierre seem to rule out any extraterrestrial activity.

KIRBY: I don't think the American people need to worry about aliens with respect to these craft, period. I don't think there's any more that needs to be said there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the Russia-Ukraine war, as we approach the anniversary.

[14:05:02]

In the days immediately after the commencement of the conflict, we heard from senior U.S. officials such as the CIA director in a congressional testimony that President Putin had been observed by U.S. officials to have constricted his decision-making circle during the pandemic, that he was making erratic decisions, and these were seen to have played out in what happened on the battlefield.

As we approach this year anniversary, what do we observe about President Putin's decision-making now, the caliber of his decision- making, and also his grip on power in his own country? Is any of that changed over the course of the year? KIRBY: I can't speak to the way Mr. Putin gets advised and how he -- you know, who's advising him and what they're saying. I couldn't begin to get inside Kremlin decision-making processes. Clearly, Mr. Putin is not making good decisions. He shouldn't have invaded in the first place. This is a country that poses no threat to anybody, let alone Russia.

Clearly, he hasn't made sound decisions, nor has his military with respected our performance on the battlefield. They're still suffering some of the same problems they were a year ago, logistics, sustainment, integration of joint fires, manpower, personnel, unit cohesion, I could go on and on.

The Russian military is still struggling. They have not surmounted these problems. And it's borne out by the fact that you know, he continues to change generals the way I changed socks. So -- I mean, he's still struggling.

JEAN-PIERRE: All right, guys, we have to end the briefing. I got to go into the Oval, but I will see you tomorrow. And thank you for the compliment on my smile. I appreciate that.

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We just heard there from John Kirby there at the White House. Hello, I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

We got a bit more detail as to what these flying objects were and some more information about them that had been shot down over the past few days, just three alone over the weekend. Moments ago, the White House responding to the national security mystery unfolding miles up in the skies.

Now, in just three days, as we noted, the U.S. shot down three unidentified flying objects, actions America's military has never taken before until this past Friday. Now, the White House just explained the U.S. made the move as a precautionary step.

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KIRBY: Because we assess that they weren't manned and weren't being controlled, therefore left to atmospheric conditions, the real risk to the safety of flight was a problem. Even though we had no indications that any of these three objects were surveilling, we couldn't rule that out. And so, they're -- you know, you want to err on the side of safety here in terms of protecting our national security interests.

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GOLODRYGA: And in the last hour, we are learning new details about the latest object that was shot down Sunday afternoon. It was the smallest and lowest flying to date. An onlooker recorded this video of a fighter jet scrambling over the skies near Lake Huron. BLACKWELL: A senior administration official said Sunday's object was 20,000 feet, shaped like an octagon with strings attached. Just a day earlier, an F-22 took down a cylindrical object at about 40,000 feet over central Yukon in Canada.

And then on Friday, another F-22. down another object at the same altitude over Deadhorse, Alaska. Now, national security officials say all three mystery objects are smaller than the spy balloon from China. The U.S. brought that one down a little more than a week ago.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond, Natasha Bertrand, they're here with us now. Jeremy, we'll start with you. And what we learned -- although there are still plenty of questions, but what we learned from the White House about these objects?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think first of all, what's important to note here is that this was a clear effort by the White House to try and address the public's concerns after we saw three additional unidentified foreign objects shot down over the last three days, to try and address those concerns, but also to show that this is an issue that the White House was not caught flat-footed about.

And John Kirby made that point repeatedly by noting that going back to 2021, the U.S. discovered this surveillance -- a high-altitude surveillance program by the Chinese and also that the president had received a briefing back in June of 2021 about this broader phenomenon of unidentified aerial objects.

Now, what we got a little bit more of today was a sense of why President Biden chose to give the order to shoot down these objects over the weekend, making clear that public safety was the top concern here.

John Kirby denied that there were any kind of political pressures at play here when asked by our colleague, Phil Mattingly, saying that it was a question of safety. And what he also said was that it's clear that one of the reasons why the U.S. is perhaps discovering more of these objects is that they're also looking for them more, tweaking some of the settings on us and NORAD radars. Listen to that portion from John Kirby.

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KIRBY: One of the reasons that we think we're seeing more is because we're looking for more. As you heard, General VanHerck mentioned last night they have -- they have modified the filters and the gains, as we call it, of the -- of the radar capabilities to look more discreetly at high altitudes, small radar cross-sections, and low-speed objects.

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DIAMOND: And John Kirby also said that these objects were shot down out of an abundance of caution here, but these were decisions that were made directly by the president on the advice of his top military advisors. Kirby also said that they are not actively tracking any additional objects today.

And then we also heard from the White House press secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre off the top after a U.S. General suggested -- said that they hadn't ruled anything out when asked about the possibility that these objects could be a sign of some kind of extraterrestrial activity, Karine Jean-Pierre is saying that she wanted to make clear that while there have been questions about this, there is no evidence linking any of these objects to any kind of extraterrestrial activity.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, we know one of these objects was shot down in coordination, I guess with approval with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as well over the weekend. Natasha, you were part of a team that gathered new details on these downed objects. What exactly are you learning from your sources?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Bianna. So, what we're learning is that the objects that were shot down over Alaska and northern Canada over the weekend, that's the object shot down on Friday and Saturday, they actually had similar characteristics in that they both had payloads.

Now, what does that mean? That essentially is a small kind of metal cylinder that goes underneath the main kind of structure of the object that is potentially able to collect information or surveillance, but it's unclear whether they actually had those capabilities.

And then we're learning that the object that was shot down over at Lake Huron, Michigan, which happened yesterday, that was octagonal with strings attached, and it had no discernible payload. So, that's a kind of differentiating point from the other two objects.

But importantly, all three of these apparently had no propulsion systems. They were not self-propelling. And it was not clear that they were able to be controlled by any external force. Rather, they were being controlled, more likely just by the wind currents. So, these are interesting details, but still, obviously, don't get us any closer to understanding what these objects actually are, or importantly, who sent them.

I think the point that Jeremy made is really important, though, that the Biden administration is now insisting that the reason why they are learning more about this is because NORAD, after that Chinese spy balloon transited the U.S. last week, changed its filters to widen the aperture of the kinds of objects that it's seeing in U.S. airspace, and because of that, that could be one reason why they're detecting more.

However, officials have also cautioned that it could just be the case that more of these objects are also just popping up right now and being sent into U.S. airspace. So not necessarily mutually exclusive here, but obviously, a new kind of policy that the US is employing with regard to whether or not to take these objects down.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Natasha Bertrand and Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

And joining me now is Mark Esper, who served as Defense Secretary during the Trump administration. Secretary, thank you so much for joining us.

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Good to be with you.

GOLODRYGA: So, given what we know to date about these objects, and that at least two of them we know had payloads, and obviously the lower altitude at which they were flying. Do you think it was the right call to shoot them down?

ESPER: I think it was. I think whenever you have unidentified aircraft entering your airspace, you have to put your sovereignty, your security first, and you also had the safety of civilian air flight that the White House has talked about. For those reasons, I think that makes sense that they did this.

GOLODRYGA: The administration thus far, says there's no indication of a connection between these three downed objects and the initial Chinese surveillance balloon. What is the basis, in your view, for that conclusion as preliminary as it may be right now?

ESPER: I don't think you can make that conclusion yet. I think we need to see from the wreckage and from the forensics of the wreckage what it is and where it came from. That said, my hunch is that these are probably not Chinese surveillance balloons. I mean, the axis of advance if you will, came from the north as compared to the South -- West with the initial Chinese spy balloon.

My gut tells me these are probably weather balloons or scientific research balloons or something like that. But boy, if it is a Chinese -- another Chinese balloon, this really says a lot about what's going on in China and what we're up against if indeed that is the case.

GOLODRYGA: So, how would you rule that out?

ESPER: I think, again, we have to do the forensics. We have to find out what's going on. I'm glad to see that the administration is taking a more proactive approach. They're clearly discriminating what's happening earlier, they've recalibrated their instrumentation, and they're making decisions quicker. I think that's a good thing when it comes to airspace and our sovereignty. And I suspect many other Western countries, NATO allies are doing the same.

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GOLODRYGA: So, do you think -- do you believe what Admiral Kirby said one of the reasons why we are seeing more of these is just perhaps we're looking for them more, and even this change in a filter and enhanced technology? Do you think it's as benign as that?

ESPER: Yes. Absolutely. I think, look, the administration was caught off guard last week or so with the Chinese spy balloon. There was a political backlash to what happened, so DoD went back, recalibrated what it's looking for, adjusted its filters. The reporting was probably beefed up as well, and so you have a lot more folks at NORAD, and in other surveillance, places looking more closely at our airspace.

And we're identifying things that may be in the past, we either ignored or overlooked or disregarded and now we're seeing a lot more of these things pop up. It is really going to drive, and we see it happening now, a review of our policy and then the protocols and procedures by which we act on aircraft entering our airspace, whether it's manned or unmanned, military, civilian, research, non-research, you name it, I think it's going to drive a big policy review that seems to be overdue at this point.

GOLODRYGA: Well, it seemed to be overdue even way when you were in the Trump administration because as you now know, you had been on our air and said that you had not been aware of any Chinese surveillance balloons. Subsequently, we found out that there had been at least three that have traveled across U.S. territory, and it had been attributed to a domain awareness gap.

Have you been briefed on that gap? And it -- does it concern you at all when you hear from Admiral Kirby saying that while China may still be behind technologically with these balloons, and they have more sophisticated satellites orbiting the Earth, that this may be sort of something that they are planning to do in the future, enhance these types of balloons?

ESPER: Yes, a few questions. First of all, I have not been briefed yet. I did get outreach from the DNI and I've -- we've yet to schedule something for me to get the top-secret briefings that they have. You know, as you rightly said, when I was secretary of defense, we didn't have this awareness.

Nobody came in rushing saying that we had Chinese surveillance balloons over us. And I think, as the administration is fairly said, we learned later going back and looking at the data is that this was indeed happening. So, my sense now is that they've closed that awareness gap with regard to adjusting their filters.

We do know, we need to modernize our ground-based radars up along the NORAD line and do some other stuff. I think we need to enhance it with artificial intelligence machine learning. But all these things are going to really help us better surveil our airspace. And look, with regard to the Chinese, clearly, they found a gap, if you will, in our surveillance and exploited it with these high-altitude balloons.

The State Department reported last week that they've been doing the same type of thing in over 40 countries and five continents. And balloons do give you some benefits that overhead satellites don't most notably persistence over a target area. And we saw that in Montana.

GOLODRYGA: What do you make, finally, of the fact that the Chinese military does not have any intention of speaking to or reaching out or responding to requests to speak with Secretary of Defense Austin?

ESPER: You know, the Chinese response on this has been all over the board. They began with denial and then they said it was a balloon, and then they played the victim card, and then they got angry, and then they threatened us.

Look, we need to keep the lines of communication open. I think they should be reaching out to us, not us to them to kind of resolve this and get over this. The relationship is going downhill right now. We need to find a bottom and we need to build a backup.

But we the American people, our Western allies, democracies of the world should not be disabused of the fact that the Chinese have a grand strategy, and that is to dominate the Indo-Pacific and really changed the international rules and global order to suit the needs of the Chinese Communist Party. And that's what we're up against here in the 21st century.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Secretary Mark Esper, thank you for your time.

ESPER: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: The number of those killed across Turkey and Syria is now above 36,000. And while hope is fading to find survivors, some are defying the odds like this 25-year-old woman who was pulled from the rubble 178 hours after the earthquake. More of these stories, ahead.

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BLACKWELL: It's now been a full week since that catastrophic earthquake hit parts of Turkey and Syria, the number of people killed about 36,200 now. So, it's astounding that today, we are still seeing rescues like this one, a 25-year-old woman recovered alive after 178 hours buried under that rubble.

GOLODRYGA: It's just unbelievable. And hours later at that very same rescue site, a 13-year-old boy named Khan was pulled from the ash and rock onto a stretcher and then carry down to an ambulance.

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GOLODRYGA: Just sharing at that miracle right there, that boy being alive. The Turkish health minister just posted this video where rescuers place an oxygen mask over a young girl's mouth after she spent 178 hours under the rubble of a building and asked if she'd like to eat a bagel.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Speaking in a foreign language)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in a foreign language)

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GOLODRYGA: She also wants strawberry and milk as well, the least that they can give her at this point given what she's been through.

BLACKWELL: Give it to her.

GOLODRYGA: CNN's Nada Bashir is in Istanbul. So, Nada, seven days presumably without food or water, what more are you learning about how these rescues are being carried out?

NADA BASHIR, CNN REPORTER: Well, look, Bianna and Victor, these rescues have been a remarkable feat. And it was not just Turkish search and rescue to use, of course, it was a team from across the globe flying into Turkey to take part in that rescue effort. And as you laid out there, it is still continuing. And we are still seeing these miraculous rescues a week on since the devastating earthquake.

In fact, just in the last hour or so we've learned from CNN tech that a 10-year-old girl was pulled out of the rubble after 185 hours of being buried there. So, these remarkable feats are giving many people in Turkey hope. And that rescue effort is continuing but it has to be said that the sad truth is, this rescue effort is very quickly now shifting to recovery effort.

[14:25:04]

And for those still waiting for news of their loved ones hoping that they are still alive beneath the rubble, that hope is dwindling fast. And, of course, the real focus now is shifting to those who survived the earthquake but have lost absolutely everything.

And I'm here at one of two key distribution centers in Istanbul where donations of aid and humanitarian assistance have been coming in for the last week. And there are around 20,000 volunteers working around the clock over the last week at these distribution centers to sort through that aid and humanitarian assistance and to deliver that to the affected southeast region of Turkey.

So far, more than 200 trucks have left this distribution center heading to South East Turkey, there were two ships as well they've arrived in Hatay with that urgent medical care and aid that was sent from their city.

And I have to say it's a real groundswell of support here. People here are so happy to be part of that effort. Every time a truck leaves this building, the beats allowed and the cheers and clapping can be heard around this huge hangar-like warehouse. But there are concerns still.

Of course, the coordinators here say this isn't enough. They need more support, more aid, more donations, not only from people in Turkey, not only from the Turkish government but also from the international community.

And, of course, it has to be said that the aid that we're seeing being sent around to southeast Turkey is far more robust than the aid and the humanitarian assistance that has crossed over into northwest Syria, an area where more than 4 million people were already so heavily dependent on humanitarian assistance. The UN says it's not working with the government in Damascus to get

aid across the rebel-held territory in the northwest, but volunteers there say it's simply too little too late.

BLACKWELL: Nada Bashir with the story for us from Istanbul, thank you so much. Let's bring it now Stephen Allen. He's a Disaster Assistance Response Team Leader currently working with crews in Turkey. Stephen, thank you for your time.

Let's start where Nada left off, the ability to get the resources, get the aid to the people, the areas that needed in both Turkey and Syria. Talk to me about the challenges of getting what's been promised to where it's needed.

STEPHEN ALLEN, USAID DISASTER ASSISTANT TEAM LEADER: Yes. Look, that's a great question. It's a -- it's a really important thing to highlight and something I'm glad that's coming up. So, at USAID, we are working to get things for the people of Turkey and the people of Syria, really where they need to go. We've been involved in the search and rescue effort.

We brought two teams out from the United States to work under USAID who are highly trained teams from Fairfax, Virginia from Los Angeles County, working alongside and with their Turkish counterparts to try to save as many lives as possible.

And you saw that footage, you know, it really does give them hope when they see that there are still people being pulled alive from the rubble. But it's amazing this far in into the tragedy that that is still happening. You know, the next phase of what we are doing is providing additional assistance to the people of Turkey and the people of Syria.

In Turkey, you know, we're waiting -- sorry, not waiting, we're working with the government to determine what their needs are. Now, we have pledged $85 million as USAID for Turkey and Syria. And we are working with partners to deliver much-needed assistance as we speak.

In Syria, we have been working on humanitarian relief in Syria, as USAID for the past 10 years. We have a very robust network of partners, many of whom were able to pivot the resources they had to immediately respond to earthquake assistance. But we recognize it's not enough.

We've worked with our UN counterparts and our other partners to make sure we are sending assistance in. But this is an area that has been fraught with access challenges for years. It's only compounded by the tragedy of this earthquake.

GOLODRYGA: And that Syria and obviously, sadly, the war can help explain some of the difficulties in getting those goods in. But you have in Turkey, a severe shortage of tents, housing, medical supplies, as an organization like yours that is used to rescuing and conducting these operations around the world, what do you think is to blame for the delay in getting some of these supplies in now? ALLEN: You know, I have to tell you, being on the ground here in Turkey, I've been an Adiyaman, which is a town that was really hard hit by the earthquake. That's where we've had our rescue crews.

It's really hard to explain the extent of the destruction and just the scale of the tragedy that we're dealing with here. I think it's important to note that Turkey, in particular, has a very robust national response infrastructure for crises like these.