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WH: Latest Objects Didn't Appear To Be Communicating Or Maneuvering; Rep. Josh Gottheimer (D-NJ) Discusses About Recent Objects Shut Down In The U.S.; McCarthy Looks To GOP's "Five Families" To Avoid Debt Default; NATO Secy. General Warns New Russian Offensive Has Begun. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 13, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: We're starting with CNN's Phil Mattingly at the White House, though. Tell us more about what came out of that briefing, Phil?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: There are still a number of unanswered questions, particularly about those two payloads that you guys referenced. We don't know what they were. We don't know what their actual construct is at this point and U.S. officials have been pretty clear, they don't believe that it had any type of significant intelligence collection capability or what they might have been intended for.

But at this White House briefing, what you did hear from National Security Council Spokesman, John Kirby, is there is very clearly a shift into a robust kind of all of government approach to try and get more answers not just to the three objects that were shut down over the course of a three-day period, but just more broadly about what they're seeing in the skies.

Now, the widening of the aperture in terms of the radars that clearly has had an effect is at least one element of why we've seen this over the course of the last couple of days. But the bigger question right now is, as you noted, Victor, this is unprecedented in terms of U.S. fighters, taking out objects above us skies. So I asked, is there a new threshold, not just with the radar aperture, but also in terms of use of force, this was John Kirby's response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Where do we go from here, I think we just don't know right now, in terms of whether there needs to be threshold changes, as you put up.

I think it's important to just take a step back here. And what the President did was order these actions with the safety and security of the American people foremost in his mind. And there were very good reasons to do it. The military then, once given an order, determines how they're going to execute that order. General VanHerck decided that the best way to do this was with Sidewinder missiles and fighter aircraft.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: And John Kirby rejecting the idea that there might have

been any political pressure in the wake of the Chinese spy balloon A week ago, a little bit more than that, it's been a long couple of days here. But he also noted that at the same time, this is all going on as it relates to the Chinese spy balloon.

The U.S. is rejecting allegations from China that the U.S. has balloons floating over Chinese airspace, saying unequivocally that is not the case. So still kind of both of these issues somewhat intertwined, as separate as the objects in the balloon may be still drawing significant resources and focus from this administration.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Yes. Well, understandably, four objects shut down in just a matter of days raises a lot of questions we still don't know answers to.

But Kylie, I know you are learning more about these objects from U.S. officials, what are they saying?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes. So U.S. officials are giving us an early read on what these objects are believed to have looked like with U.S. officials saying that the object that was down over Alaska is believed to be a metallic object that broke into several pieces when it was downed on to that sea ice because those waters obviously have frozen around Alaska.

They're also telling us that both of the objects that were down over Canada and over Alaska are believed to have had payloads. Now, we don't know what's in those payloads as Phil was saying. And the other thing is that all three of the objects are not believed to have propulsion, meaning that they were going in the wind stream, they didn't have any control over the direction that that wind stream was taking them or how quickly they were traveling. They're all believed to have different appearances, so still a lot of questions here, Bianna.

But we heard from John Kirby trying to be very clear in saying that the three objects that were taken down Friday, Saturday and Sunday are very different than the Chinese spy balloon that was taken down last weekend. And one of the reasons for that is because the Chinese spy balloon was traveling at about 60,000 feet elevation, these three were flying - two of them at 40,000 feet, one at 20,000 feet, meaning that all three of them pose some threat to civilian aircraft.

And the Chinese spy balloon was something that the Biden administration, U.S. intelligence officials were tracking before it came into us airspace. For these other objects, it's not clear that they were tracking these at all. And so they don't believe that they have surveillance capabilities or intents, but they don't know that.

And so due to the threat to civilian aircraft and due to the possibility that they were surveilling what was below, on U.S. grounds, those are the factors that led to them taking down those objects. I do want to address the question of aliens here, because that has come up. And we heard yesterday from a top U.S. general saying that he wouldn't take that off the table as a potential relation to these objects. But we heard very clearly from John Kirby today at the White House podium, saying that he doesn't think that the American people have any reason to be concerned about aliens with respect to these craft.

And we heard also from the White House spokesperson saying that there's no indication that - with aliens when these were taken down, so they are trying to take that question off the table right now.

GOLODRYGA: Conspiracy theories have been running wild and I know a lot of alien, I guess, believers were sort of let down deflated.

[15:05:03]

BLACKWELL: Well, with so many questions that have been answered ...

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: ... this is where a lot of this metastasizes.

GOLODRYGA: Exactly. Phil Mattingly and Kylie Atwood, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Democratic Congressman Josh Gottheimer is on the House Intelligence Committee. He's also co-chair of the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus. Congressman, good to see you. Thanks for being with me.

Have you learned more about these three most recent objects that have been shot down and you can add to what we've learned this afternoon?

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Well, we were briefed, of course, on the balloon over South Carolina and, obviously, China's unacceptable provocative actions there. And what we learned, of course, administration in terms of the intelligence gathering, we have not learned anything additional on what's been in the public space on these last three objects, so - Alaska, and Canada and Michigan, so we should be getting a classified briefing, I presume, and we've asked for it in the coming days, but that's where we are right now.

BLACKWELL: On the point of disclosure, I want you to listen here to the ranking member on the House, Intel Committee, Democrat Jim Himes on the disclosure, what we're hearing and not hearing from the administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): I have real concerns about why the administration is not being more forthcoming with everything that it knows. In the absence of information, people's anxiety leads them into potentially destructive areas. So I do hope that very soon, the administration has a lot more information for all of us on what's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: We learned a little more today, but we also learned more about the process, not the actual objects. How do you assess the degree of transparency, the disclosure from the administration on these objects?

GOTTHEIMER: I mean, I agree with Jim. I mean, I've spoken to him, I think that what would be constructive here and as you pointed out, we've heard more from the administration today. We've heard from the Secretary of Defense, and from the White House National Security Council, those are good steps. It'd be good to hear from the White House more or the President about exactly what's the - what the process has been here and what we're learning and what their strategy is.

Because the point is when you don't give information, there's lots of misinformation out there and I think the public, obviously, and I've heard from a lot of my constituents, they want to know what exactly is going on here, what threats are out there. And these are obviously different instances, but the military has taken action. I'm glad we've taken action. I really commend the military and the guard for being decisive. I think that's the right steps. But I think we need to hear more and learn more.

BLACKWELL: And you don't think that putting Admiral Kirby out is enough. You think the American people need to hear from the President about these objects?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, I think it's good action that we heard from the Admiral and that we're hearing from the Secretary Defense, those are all good steps. I haven't heard the full briefing yet from the Secretary of Defense if there's any more details out there and I heard him cut off a minute ago on your program.

But the bottom line is this, whether it's the President or the White House or others, we need more information out there because it'll - people are concerned. But the bottom line is this, I think it's good that we took action against - decisive action against China. I think it's good that we're taking action here, especially if aviation's threatened. Obviously, that's the right steps, but we need to know more information.

BLACKWELL: So after the balloon was shot down which China claimed after denying and then they eventually asked for it back, the question is, are these other three items of Chinese origin - Bianna just spoke with former Defense Secretary Mark Esper, who says his hunch is that these are not Chinese spy drones that maybe they are weather balloons, more than a hunch. Do you have an expectation based on what we know about them not having any propulsion to reportedly had payloads, the third shot down yesterday does not - that these are or are not Chinese?

GOTTHEIMER: I mean, I've - as I mentioned, I've asked for a briefing to learn more and in the meantime, unless the administration makes that information public, I - we haven't learned anything more and specifically where they're from. But the bottom line is, we know this. What they have said is they were - at 40,000 feet or below threatening aviation, so I think that's - we clearly made the right decision. But obviously we're going to and I'm sure they're learning more as they collect the debris and figure out exactly where they're from and what was involved in those payloads. BLACKWELL: We heard from the President through a PBS interview last

week that he said that this episode does not hurt U.S.-China relations. What we heard from John Kirby today is that and I wrote it down, that this certainly is not helpful in moving in the direction that the White House was hoping to move. How do you think that this episode impacts the relationship between the U.S. and China?

GOTTHEIMER: I agree that it's unhelpful, but I think it's really important that we keep channels open. I think dialogue is critical. But we have to understand if they took an - they take an aggressive action here, unacceptable and provocative with the balloon.

[15:09:57]

And - but it's important that we keep talking and - but make it clear to them and I think it was the right decision that Secretary Blinken canceled his trip. We make it clear to them that this is unacceptable. And when - and I'm sure that that's the dialogue that's going on right now.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you one more on a different topic, but we're not going too far. This is on TikTok, you know that there are plenty of states that have either started or enacted bans are working toward potentially banning the use of TikTok by state employees on state devices. The Senate majority leader was asked over the weekend about potential national ban of TikTok and he said that it is something that should be looked at. Do you support a national ban on TikTok?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, I agree with them that it's something we should look at. I mean, I'm - I've had legislation on this where clearly they're using TikTok to both - there's no protection, there's not a lot of protections for kids. There's a lot of information we know they're stealing, the Chinese government, through TikTok and so - and a lot of privacy concerns overall and especially with our children.

So I think we need to aggressively look at and make some decisions here with TikTok and I don't disagree with the actions and states and federally to ban it from devices, I think that's the right move.

BLACKWELL: Congressman Josh Gottheimer, thank you so much for your time.

GOTTHEIMER: Thanks for having me.

GOLODRYGA: Turning to Capitol Hill, the debt ceiling showdown is reaching a boiling point as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy desperately tries to avoid default.

BLACKWELL: And a judge in Georgia will make public some of the report from the special Grand Jury investigating Donald Trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election, could charges be coming?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:01] GOLODRYGA: Well, just moments ago, Defense Secretary Austin landed in

Brussels and spoke about shooting down three unidentified objects flying over U.S. airspace.

BLACKWELL: He specifically addressed the decision that was made to shoot them down and whether there is a new threshold for shooting down objects.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Our policy hasn't changed. We will evaluate each and every event on its own merits and we'll make decisions based upon the recommendations of that NORTHCOM NORAD commander, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and they'll make recommendations to me and I'll evaluate and make recommendations to the President.

Again, these three events presented a - each of them presented a risk to safety of flight and we don't know if they were actually collecting intelligence, but because of the route that they took out of an abundance of caution, we want to make sure that we have the ability to examine what these things are and potentially what they were doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: The Defense Secretary is in Brussels to meet with NATO defense ministers about Ukraine tomorrow.

BLACKWELL: Let's go to Capitol Hill now where the White House and Senate Democrats say they've done the math, and they don't believe House Speaker Kevin McCarthy has enough votes to raise the national borrowing limit. In short, they expect they may have to cave or he may have to cave to their demands in order to avoid an unprecedented debt default.

GOLODRYGA: Now, CNN has learned McCarthy is in talks with the so called five families, a Godfather reference there ...

BLACKWELL: I see.

GOLODRYGA: ... of the Republican Party as they search for some sort of consensus.

Joining us now our two CNN Political Commentators, S.E. Cupp and Mondaire Jones. He's a former Democratic congressman, good to see you both.

So S.E., let's start with you, because everything seems like it's just going dandy, if you were to take their word for it, these five families and let me quote from South Dakota Congressman Dusty Johnson who was chairman of the Main Street Caucus, and he said, "There is a level of trust and engagement within the five families that I have not seen in previous four years. We are working really well together." Do you buy that?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, they have - the, I think, advantage they would have is to actually say the opposite, so that there was pressure on McCarthy to give each of the capos of the five families what they want. I'm Italian, I can say that.

But - and also I do believe that they are - they're enjoying having some empowerment, what Kevin McCarthy did was say, look, you guys come up with the things that you want and let's all talk about them together so that we have a plan to present to Biden.

Now, I think that comes directly off of the State of the Union where Republicans were caught a bit flatfooted, accused of not having a plan for the debt ceiling and then Biden went ahead and spoke for Republicans where it came to entitlements. They didn't like that. So they're coming - they're cobbling together a plan and they're trying to - Kevin McCarthy is trying to get these five families to strike a deal and come to some kind of agreement.

BLACKWELL: Mondaire, it took 15 rounds to give McCarthy the gavel, what's the degree of confidence that they will come to some overlap where all the families can say, all right, we'll agree on these cuts?

MONDAIRE JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, to quote a famous line from Jay-Z, no one wins when the family feuds and we see with this Republican Caucus in the House that there is a lot of feuding going on.

It remains to be seen whether there will be, let's say, five House Republicans who would - if all else fails - join a discharge petition - what's called a discharge petition, join with 213 House Democrats and force a floor vote on a clean bill because the White House is signaling and Democrats in Congress is signaling that they are not willing to agree to the demands of these Republicans to simply - especially as part of a process that would simply honor our commitments.

[15:20:04]

I think people widely conceive of the budget negotiation as the more appropriate vehicle for getting some of these cuts that folks are talking about. And until they articulate what they actually want to cut, you can best believe that Democrats are going to refer to prior statements from people in the House and in the Senate on the Republican side, about their intentions to cut Social Security and Medicare.

GOLODRYGA: Okay. Mondaire, so sticking with you, because assuming that there is some sort of plan that is agreed upon among these five families, do the Democrats then risk looking like they're the unreasonable party or the administration specifically, because they have said from day one, they will only take a clean bill and nobody wins, regardless of which party if the country does default?

JONES: Look, I think given that this is something that should not be controversial, that we're talking about people, this country, just honoring the commitments that has already made paying its debts, that it's really a high - a tall order to put the blame on Democrats for something that should be a routine negotiation or not much of a negotiation at all so to speak.

So look, part of this is what are Republicans going to propose cutting, that's a big part of it in terms of how reasonable its demand - the Republican Party's demands are going to be perceived. But I really think that Democrats have the better posture in this situation. I think you see it in terms of how vehement the response was when the President alluded to plans by certain Republicans to cut Social Security and Medicare. They're very sensitive about this and they know that they may have asked for - they may have gotten more than they bargained for.

BLACKWELL: So S.E. on what Republicans will propose, Social Security is about 21 percent of federal spending, Medicare, Medicaid chipped the Children's Health Insurance Program, ACA, they're another quarter percent about, defense and national security, 13 percent. Is defense off the table for Republicans to cut do you think?

CUPP: I mean, that depends on how much sway people like Marjorie Taylor Greene in the House Freedom Caucus have, right? I mean, these are the folks that are saying, America first, no more money for Ukraine. We'll see how empowered they feel.

But to Mondaire's point, listen, I think Republicans will have a good case to make to the American people that look, we put a deal together, we have a plan and if you want to raise the debt limit, it needs to come with some cuts, American families all over the country are making cuts at home. I think they'll understand that. But Victor, as you say, I mean, the devil is in the details, it's what they want to cut and if that's going to be entirely palatable to American voters.

BLACKWELL: All right. S.E., Mondaire, thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Thanks.

Well, the head of NATO says Russia's new offensive is beginning, with shelling in eastern Ukraine already intensifying. We'll have a live report from Kyiv up next.

BLACKWELL: And later, just six weeks after suffering cardiac arrest on the field, Damar Hamlin took in the big game ...

GOLODRYGA: Look at him.

BLACKWELL: ... as a fan. And even there he met LeBron James, what he's saying about a potential return to the field ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:53]

GOLODRYGA: NATO's chief is warning that Russia has already started a new offensive in Ukraine. Ukrainian officials are already seeing a high tempo of Russian attacks, what they fear is a prelude to a massive new assault.

BLACKWELL: One Ukrainian official says there was record shelling in the east this weekend. But these drone videos also show heavy losses for Ukrainian tanks.

CNN's is David McKenzie is in Kyiv.

So David has Ukraine believe a new Russian offensive has begun, now it's underway now.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, you can't really set your watch to it. But what you have seen is this very significant uptick in attacks in certain parts of that eastern front. And according to the NATO Secretary General, at least, he believes that this has already started.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: We have seen the start already, because we see in what Russia does - now President Putin do now is to send in thousands and thousands of more troops accepting a very high rate of casualty, taking big losses, but putting pressure on the Ukrainians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKENZIE: And the pressure is being felt most around that eastern front around Vuhledar where you this extraordinary footage of Russian troops being sent in wave after wave often in mechanized units and just getting obliterated must be said by Ukrainian forces, at least based on the evidence we've reviewed, they have been hitting minefields, attacked by drones and artillery. Even the Russian supporters on that military blogosphere are criticizing the Russians for throwing a huge amount of resources without much gain.

One of the biggest issues that Ukrainians face at this point though is that they are running short of basic, large caliber ammunition and that's something that NATO will be discussing into tomorrow to try and ratchet up production to get them to the front.

[15:30:00]

GOLODRYGA: Yes, the delivery time to deliver that ammunition is actually increasing, we heard from Stoltenberg to 28 months from 12 months.