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Source: Former VP Pence To Fight Special Counsel Subpoena; Inflation Still Hot In January, But Some Prices Are Cooling Off; Nikki Haley Announces She's Running For President; Sen. Tim Scott To Hold Events In SC, Iowa Amid 2024 Speculation. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired February 14, 2023 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:32:55]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Former Vice President Mike Pence is expected to fight a subpoena from the special counsel investigating Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

Sources tell CNN the move is tied to "legislative privilege," not executive. They say Pence argues his former role as president of the Senate shields him from testifying.

The argument raises the Constitution's Speech or Debate Clause, which protects legislators from certain law enforcement actions if the conduct in question is related to their legislative duties.

With us now to discuss is CNN legal analyst and former White House ethics czar, Norm Eisen He served as a House Judiciary special counsel in President Trump's first impeachment trial.

Norm, great to see you.

What do you make of this rather novel strategy from the former vice president and his lawyers?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Bianna, the executive privilege argument to resist testifying has failed so they are pulling another arrow from the quiver of constitutional defenses.

But it is not going to work because there is no absolute speech or debate immunity for a vice president or anyone else from showing up and answering the kinds of questions we have here.

GOLODRYGA: Well, he is going to argue, I would imagine, that this was not during his time as vice president but specifically as a president of the Senate.

What is your response to that?

EISEN: First, if you look at the Speech or Debate Clause, it says, senators and representatives, not presidents of the Senate or other constitutional officers. So it is limited, Bianna, by its own terms to senators and representatives. He was not a senator. He was not a representative. So he loses on that

ground.

And then the clause is also limited to speech or debate in either house. So if he were saying, well, I don't want to be questioned about what I was thinking when I was sitting in the chair presiding over the chamber, that's one thing.

But it is dubious whether that blocks all questions about everything that happened in the runup.

[14:35:04]

Now the courts have held that some things are considered legislative acts. But I just litigated this issue in the Lindsey Graham case where he similarly tried -- and he is a senator -- and he similarly tried to say, I don't have to show up for questions at all.

He lost. And so will Mike Pence.

GOLODRYGA: So if you were to advise Mike Pence, which you are not, you say the better solution would have been to follow the Lindsey Graham path, and that is just to show up and answer each question by question and take it from there.

EISEN: Well, if I were advising Mike Pence, I would have to give him not only legal advice but political advice.

This is the advice Lindsey Graham got, too. He fought furiously. He lost in multiple courts and multiple states and at the federal level and at the Supreme Court before he finally gave up.

So Pence is in a political pickle not just a legal one. Because he doesn't want to look like he is cooperating with this investigation.

He did the same thing, Bianna, with the January 6th investigation. He has to put up a show of resistance.

I think that might be the right thing for him with the Republican primary electorate. It is not the right thing for America, however.

And so I do think from a legal perspective he should say, I'll show up. I'll answer questions. If some of them are constitutionally prohibited, I'll object.

That would be the legal and the proper thing to do and the patriotic thing.

GOLODRYGA: He has been willing to speak out and give interviews and write a book. How do you think that prosecutors, DOJ, will respond to this?

EISEN: I think they'll fight him as they have fought and won all the executive privilege arguments in the post-Trump presidency.

That is why Pence is not leading with executive privilege because those arguments failed like this one is going to do.

I think they'll push back, just like the prosecutors in the Lindsey Graham case where Graham was wanted for the state prosecution that is possible in the Georgia investigation.

And prosecutors will fight it. They have to fight it because that there is no blanket immunity of this kind for a vice president under the Speech or Debate Clause.

GOLODRYGA: This has prolonged this investigation. That we do know.

Norm Eisen, great to see you. Thank you.

EISEN: Thank you, Bianna.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, makes it official and enters the 2024 presidential race. Hear how other potential GOP candidates, like Governor Ron DeSantis, are reacting to the announcement.

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[14:42:01]

BLACKWELL: The Consumer Price Index, a key indicator of inflation, is out today and it shows Americans are still spending a lot on everyday goods.

GOLODRYGA: Last month, the rate of inflation surged by the most it has in three months. But year to year, it dropped to just over 6 percent.

Here is what the president had to say about today's numbers.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today's report on inflation shows the good news is that inflation in America is continuing to come down. It has fallen seven straight months with more to go. Food prices at the grocery store are coming down. Gas prices are down $1.60 since their peak.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Joining us is Mark Zandi, the chief economist with Moody's Analytics.

Always good to see you, Mark.

So is the president right to highlight, listen, on the one hand, inflation is still stubbornly high. On the other hand, and perhaps more importantly, it continues to decline?

MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MOODY'S ANALYTICS: Yes, Bianna, that's right. Inflation is still painfully high. The typical American household spends about $400 more a month to buy the same goods and services they did last year because of high inflation. That is painful for the typical household.

It is coming down. Go back to last summer when inflation peaked, the same household would shell out well over $500 more a month to buy the same goods and services.

We are moving in the right direction. Obviously, for many Americans, painfully slow.

BLACKWELL: So on the back side of a quarter point Fed interest rate increase, since then, we've gotten the jobs report. More than 500,000 jobs created in January. Huge number there.

This report, how does the Fed interpret what they've seen since the last meeting?

ZANDI: Well, I think they're taking this in stride. You know, Jay Powell, the chair, said inflation is coming in, but it is not going to be a straight line to use the words bumpy. This is a bump.

Inflation is improving. It is not a straight line. It is going to take some time.

I think, all in all, you can take a step back and look at the inflation data, we are moving in the right direction.

And with another one or two rate hikes each time, pretty much what the Fed said they'd do, I think that will be sufficient to slow the economy down enough to quell the inflationary pressures by this time next year.

So it is not exactly what you would write on a piece of paper, but it is close enough.

GOLODRYGA: Mark, are you still optimistic we can perhaps avoid a soft landing and avoid recession all together?

ZANDI: Yes, Bianna, I am actually more optimistic. This feels like we're moving in the right direction. The economy is amazingly resilient.

Yes, the job market is strong. But, you know, that shows resilience of the labor market and businesses.

[14:45:03]

They are very reluctant to layoff and with good reason because they know on the other side of this their biggest problem will be finding workers and retaining workers.

If you don't have lots of lay-offs, I don't see how you have recession.

I don't want to be Pollyannish. It is not going to be easy. It will be tough and feel bumpy at times.

But I think we'll navigate through with a little bit of luck, assuming nothing else goes wrong, like a debt limit reach or something else.

I am optimistic we make our way through without a recession.

BLACKWELL: The debt limit threat is still out there. Somebody could screw it up.

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BLACKWELL: Mark Zandi, thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Well, more than a week after the devastating earthquake and still stories of survival are emerging from the rubble, including this 18-year-old. More on the ongoing rescue efforts on the ground, ahead.

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[14:50:26]

GOLODRYGA: This just into CNN. Longtime Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein says she will not run for reelection in 2024.

BLACKWELL: She's 89 years old, first elected in 1992. She says she plans to serve out the two remaining years of her term.

The retirement of Senator Feinstein will, no doubt, set off a major competition for her seat. Two house Democrats, Adam Schiff, Katie Porter, they've already announced they are running.

GOLODRYGA: We'll continue to follow that breaking story.

But here's another story we're following. Nikki Haley is officially in the 2024 presidential race. The former South Carolina governor is the first declared Republican rival to Donald Trump after serving as the U.N. ambassador while he was in the White House.

BLACKWELL: She'll kick off her campaign tomorrow in Charleston and visit two early voting states, Iowa and New Hampshire, earlier this week.

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NIKKI HALEY, (R), FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR & FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: You should know this about me. I don't put up with bullies. And when you kick back, it hurts them more if you're wearing heels.

I'm Nikki Haley. And I'm running for president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Alyssa Farah Griffin is CNN political commentator former Trump communications director.

Welcome.

She's made the announcement earlier than expected. First thoughts? ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I am excited, for the

first time since 2016, there are other credible Republicans challenging Donald Trump, so, I'll start there.

Listen, it's a tough uphill battle. You've got Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump pulling exceptionally high for this section of the race, in the 30s. But she does have the qualifications to do it.

I don't know Nikki Haley well. I've spent time with her in the U.N. I've seen her take on dictators and despots face-to-face. If she wants to win, there's a lane for her.

I'm going to see how the next few months pan out.

She hit the right tones with this announcement, so she threw some red meat in the conservative base.

She was talking next generational aspiration. She wasn't leaning into cultural wars, not that much. At least not making that front and center. Differentiating herself from DeSantis.

I'm curious to see what the future holds.

GOLODRYGA: Talk about the timing. Because it is rather early. I mean, I understand it is early. And with Trump going in early, there may have been political reasons as to why. With her, she's a well-known one.

Is this because of fundraising. Is that one of the reasons?

GRIFFIN: That was my guess, to get a jump on fundraising. Especially because DeSantis gets in, and he, as a sitting governor, has the benefit of the sideline.

He can command media attention, he can raise his name I.D. while still not being declared. So there may be some strategic junction there.

What I also think is the Trump factor is the wildcard. She's going to go low. And that's always a challenge.

But DeSantis has done extremely well so far while not having major opponents against him.

This is another two-term governor, a U.N. ambassador, and someone to show something different than what he's offering.

I'm curious how she navigates that. She's a got a two-fold job, defeat Donald Trump. That's different than what's held.

BLACKWELL: Right now, there is the Trump and Not Trump. Those are the lanes. She's going to do some work to explain where she is on Trump and where she's been.

She was against him in the primary in 2016, then went to work for him. Then came back into the fold when she saw his political life wasn't over in 2021. And now she's running against him again. How do you reconcile that?

GRIFFIN: That's going to be her biggest challenge if she had stayed where she was after the RNC 2016 meeting after January 6th, which was, it's time to move on, it's time to define the future of the part, I think she'd be polling higher than she is.

She's going to need a full answer on that, someone who has walked away from Trump, that's where you lose a lot of people like me. I'm curious how she runs on that.

The worst thing she could if run on Trump lite and not distance herself. At that point, you're not defining a lane. You're not going to get a big enough plurality of votes.

GOLODRYGA: Now, DeSantis, possibly, right, the legislature just began. This is going to start in the spring. Probably a few more months before they hear any decision from him.

But there are others in the wings who have expressed some interest, Governor Hogan, Sununu.

What does her announcement today mean in terms of their potential?

GRIFFIN: Sununu, I would keep an eye on. Again, a popular governor of a purple state who knows how to work with a Democrat legislature. One of the most popular governors in the country actually.

I think they're going to watch and see what lane she stakes out. Because if she truly is going to be -- there's going to have to be someone to take Trump straight on. If that's the lane she's running in, perhaps they throw support behind her.

[14:55:06]

If not, I think we should expect some of those names to get in.

But again, this is so early in the primary. I keep telling people, don't declare it Trump's party or DeSantis' party. We saw it with Bobby Jindal, we saw it with others --

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GRIFFIN: -- with Scott Walker.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GRIFFIN: So there's a long way to go. And there's an appetite for changes and an appetite for next generation leadership.

BLACKWELL: Senator Tim Scott was on television today sounding like he's going to jump in. He's going to early primary states soon.

What do you think about his potential?

GRIFFIN: He is beloved. I think donors love him. Republicans love him. He's got a great personal story that I think appeals to the empathy

and the compassionate conservatism that we didn't see under Donald Trump.

I think being a Senator is always a much more uphill battle than being a governor. It's just baked into that experience and the donor base you could have. But he could be formidable.

I'd love to see him get in. Again, we don't need a giant lane where you've got a dozen people running because that only benefits Donald Trump. There's got to be a coalescing.

GOLODRYGA: As you said, it's early.

Alyssa, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you.

With three objects hovering over North America in just three days, the White House says the theory on the objects is they're benign balloons. Much more on what we're learning, ahead.

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