Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Alex Murdaugh Trial Continues; Man Rushes Buffalo Supermarket Shooter in Court; Nikki Haley Announces Bid For President; Michigan State Shooting Aftermath. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired February 15, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:33]

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Good afternoon. I am Kasie Hunt here in Washington.

We begin with the deadly Michigan State shooting. At this hour, students and staff along with an FBI escort are able to return to the site of the rampage to gather their belongings, this as the heartbroken campus prepares to hold a vigil for three fallen Spartans, a fraternity president, an aspiring doctor, an all-state athlete.

Twenty-year-old Brian Fraser is being remembered for his great leadership and humor. Arielle Anderson was just 19 years old, already a junior, her family says she was known for her straight A's and her pure heart. And people who knew 20-year-old Alexandria Verner say her kindness was on display every single second you were around her.

Five other students are recovering in the hospital.

CNN's Adrienne Broaddus at -- is in East Lansing.

And, Adrienne, we're now learning a little bit more about one of the survivors.

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are.

We're talking about one of the five who was critically injured. That's Guadalupe Huapilla-Perez. She has been identified by her sister. The school has said it will not identify, out of respect for the families, the five who were physically injured.

I want to share with our viewers what we have learned about Guadalupe while we share these beautiful photos her family shared. She is a hospitality business junior here at MSU. Her family calls her a leader in the community and beyond. They say she's hardworking, focused and ambitious.

One thing they wanted folks to know is that she selected a career path no one else in her family explored. While they are happy Guadalupe survived, the family members posting on a GoFundMe account said they are devastated and they also said there is a long road of recovery ahead for her.

Meanwhile, in under six hours, people will hold vigil here outside of the Spartan statue which is known in this community and beyond as a symbol of strain, not only honoring the three whose lives ended on Monday night, but recognizing the victims who were physically injured, as well as thousands of others who are dealing with emotional grief and trauma after surviving this mass shooting -- Kasie.

HUNT: And what is the latest from the police right now on the investigation into this?

BROADDUS: We haven't heard from police today. They did let us know they will have an update for us tomorrow.

But the question still remains, why did this happen? Investigators have said the 43-year-old had no ties to MSU. They did say inside of his pocket they found a note threatening something else to happen at two other schools, not here, but at least 10 hours away in New Jersey. Investigators say that 43-year-old shooter did have ties to New Jersey.

HUNT: All right, Adrienne Broaddus in East Lansing, thanks very much for that report.

We're going to turn now to politics and a 2024 Republican presidential field that has doubled in size today. Former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. and former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley just wrapped up her first campaign rally. She is Donald Trump's sole GOP challenger for now.

Here's a little bit of her pitch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're ready, ready to move past the stale ideas and faded names of the past. And we are more than ready for a new generation to lead us into the future.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Faded names, is that perhaps a pointed reference to her former boss?

That is someone she has yet to actually call out by name in this new campaign. So far, she has pretty carefully tiptoed around the subject of Donald Trump and their complicated journey from allies to rivals.

CNN's Kylie Atwood is on the scene in Charleston, South Carolina.

Kylie, what did you hear today?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well listen, Nikki Haley clearly making the case that she is the future of the Republican Party, saying that she and she believes the Republican Party are ready to move on past the stale ideas and faded names of the past, asking folks in this room to trust her and trust the new generation. It's worth noting, of course, as she makes that generational argument,

that she's 51 years old. Both President Biden and former President Trump are older than 75 years old. Listen to what she said to voters in the room here in South Carolina today.

[13:05:09]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Today, our enemies think that the American era has passed. They're wrong.

America is not past our prime. It's just that our politicians are past theirs. We will have term limits for Congress...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

HALEY: ... and mandatory mental competency tests for politicians over 75 years old.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: She also spoke about who she is, growing up, as she said, a proud daughter of Indian immigrants.

They were the only Indian family in a small town here in Bamberg, South Carolina. She said there were challenges with that. But she extrapolated on the fact that she is a woman of color. And she said very clearly that she believes America is not racist, sort of leaning into some of those culture wars that we have seen the Republican Party latch on to.

She said that way of thinking is more dangerous than a virus like the pandemic. She was very clearly giving something there to the base, to the Republican base. And she spoke about, generally speaking, leadership failing the American people and laid out her vision for what America should look like, an America where children are no longer prohibited from going to school by politicians.

She talked about being strong, not being weak and woke,securing America's borders, making sure that policing is up. And those are all things that she's clearly making the case to try and appeal to a broad spectrum of Republicans, because she noted, as she did in a video out yesterday, that Republicans have lost the popular vote in seven out of the eight last presidential races.

And she says that's because they have failed to capture the majority of Republican support. She says that is all about to change -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right, Kylie Atwood, thank you very much for that report. Really appreciate it.

For more on this, we are joined by CNN senior political commentator former GOP Congressman Adam Kinzinger and CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp.

I can't think of two better people to have this conversation with.

And, Congressman, let me start with you.

Nikki Haley, as a candidate, she is running against Donald Trump. She has all of these sort of subtle digs at him. You have been very outspoken in how you feel and what you believe about him as a danger to the party. What is your assessment of how she is trying to walk this careful line?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, just putting on the analysis hat, I think she's probably doing the best she can kind of given her set of circumstances.

I think, tactically, it was pretty smart for her to come out right away, because she can kind of take up a little bit of the oxygen. If Trump fades away, she can claim that she was the first one with the courage to take him on. The truth is, though, I think a lot of people understand that she's trying to run for a vice presidential slot.

It doesn't mean she don't want to be president. But I think, in her mind, it's vice president that she's going for. Personally now, I have a complete lack of respect, really, for anybody that is unwilling to tell the truth to the American people and to their party. But, from a tactical perspective, she's doing the right thing, because, if you tell the truth like I did, you're probably not going to win the nominations here.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: That is a fair self-assessment, Congressman. I appreciate your honesty.

S.E., let me ask you. I want to read you some quotes from Politico. She sat down with reporter Tim Alberta for this lengthy profile. And he talked to her right after January 6, when she said -- quote -- "He," meaning Donald Trump, "is not going to run for federal office again."

"But what if he does or what if he spent the next four years threatening to? Can the Republican Party heal with Trump in the picture?" That's the question posed by the reporter.

And she says -- quote -- "I don't think he's going to be in the picture. I don't think he can. He has fallen so far."

So that is what Nikki Haley said right after January 6. Now, she got the message pretty quick, and, like, completely changed her tune and since he said that she wasn't going to run if Trump was running. Here we are today. She's running, even though Trump is running.

This seems pretty messy. I mean, how is this a straightforward argument as she enters this race?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. No, her messaging over the past few years has been very contradictory, not just about Trump, but about January 6, about wokism, about Confederate Flags. She's going to really have to reconcile sort of the messiness of her positions when she's challenged, like, for the first time by an aggressive press, a national press now that she will be on the national stage.

[13:10:00]

She will have to account for all of that, not only that, though. She will have to explain why being generationally new is actually new in terms of policy. Because, to me, she sounded a lot like Trumpism, just with a -- with bigger words and a little less anger.

So, is the is the generation the only new part, and you're going to bring a lot of Trumpism with you, the anti-wokism, some of the anti- immigrant stuff that he did? Or are you really going to bring new policies that address a new generation of Republicans and a new generation of voters that might be disaffected and disillusioned with both parties?

We will have to see what she prepares to do.

HUNT: No, it's fair points, all.

And, Congressman, let me show you. I think we also can play a little bit of kind of how she's tried to go back and forth on Trump, mostly on him as a person and less on the policy. But take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Donald Trump is everything I taught my children not to do in kindergarten. I taught my two little ones, you don't lie and make things up.

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": What about his truthfulness? Did you think he was a truthful person?

HALEY: Yes. In every instance that I dealt with him, he was truthful, he listened, and he was great to work with.

QUESTION: He still has a lot of popularity. If he runs again in 2024, will you support him?

HALEY: Yes.

QUESTION: If he decides that he's going to run, would that preclude any sort of run that you would possibly make yourself?

HALEY: I would not run if President Trump ran.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, to S.E.'s point, Congressman, how does she answer tough questions about this? I mean, does she just try to avoid them for the next six or eight months? I mean, how would you answer those questions if those words had come from your mouth?

KINZINGER: She can't answer -- yes, she can't answer those questions.

And here's the thing is, anybody that runs against her or runs in that primary will have the same questions that they can't answer. So it's kind of like either mutual assured destruction or just we don't need to touch it, because so many people, with the exception of Trump himself, and maybe to an extent DeSantis, so many people have tried to walk a line and kind of see where the wind is blowing.

After January 6, they were all against it. And then, when they saw maybe the wind is with Donald Trump, then we're all for him again, until we're against him. I mean, there is some peace, trust me, in being consistent in what you believe and just telling that.

I don't think Nikki Haley can explain that away. I think what she can do is try to bring kind of new ideas. As S.E. was saying, you didn't hear a lot in this speech. But she does have kind of a traditional foreign policy view for Republicans 2015 and prior. She can start to implement that into the conversation.

And I think she can actually play a decent role in discussion when it comes to this primary. But, man, I got to tell you, I have a really hard time seeing how she -- how she justifies being for and against Trump based on where the wind is blowing.

HUNT: Yes, that's fair.

And, S.E., let me actually follow up on the Congressman's point about foreign policy, because we're actually already seeing former President Trump and his team hit Haley on some of these questions, talking about more money -- more Americans' money going to Ukraine, for example, if she's selected.

Where do you think that issue sits right now with the Republican base? And how does that sort of develop over the course of the primary, where you have these more traditional conservatives who say, absolutely, we are going to Ukraine to defend freedom, and then some of these -- quote, unquote -- "MAGA Republicans" who say that it's a waste of money?

CUPP: Well, yes, this will depend on whose ears she has, right? Does she have the Marjorie Taylor Greene, the House Freedom Caucus wing of the party? Does she have that ear? Is she going to play to that crowd, that sort of fringy, extremist element?

Or is she going to stand her ground and sound like the neocon that she probably is, and talk about doing the right things in Ukraine and not parroting Putin?

But this is the existential question for her campaign. She has the opportunity to run a really serious, formidable, tight campaign with real surrogates, real endorsements, real donors. She could do that. And to do that, she'd have to exclude some folks. Or she could sort of open the floodgates and let any of the remora, the conspiracy theory wing of the party, the white nationalist wing of the party, let them all in, like Trump did, because he believed he needed their votes.

If she decides to let all those parasites in and attach to her campaign, I think it'll tank pretty quickly, because Trump is really the only one that can succeed doing that. I think, if she keeps her campaign clean, tight, serious, sticks to the things she knows, believes in and has experience with, I think she could run a pretty serious campaign.

HUNT: It's going to be a really interesting first test, I mean, after what we saw in 2016, with Trump taking out one person after the other, to see how people try and grapple with it this time.

And Nikki Haley certainly cuts in interesting figure as the first person to make that attempt.

[13:15:03]

S.E. Cupp and former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, thanks to both of you. I really appreciate your insights.

Coming up: chaos in court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: A stunning scene in court this morning during the sentencing of the Buffalo supermarket shooter.

Police had to intervene as a man rushed the killer. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We like our kids to go to good schools. We love our kids. We never go in no neighborhoods and take people out.

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: CNN's Omar Jimenez joins me now.

Omar, clearly a very emotional scene for many of these people. What happened?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look, we knew this was going to be an emotional sentencing hearing here in Buffalo.

[13:20:00]

And, obviously, that was the extreme of it. Emotions got the best of that person who we're told is family of family of people who were speaking today. And these were all people who were related to or knew closely those that were killed in that Buffalo shooting back in May of 2022.

And we are told from authorities that he -- there are no plans to charge him for what he did there. Now, that said, it's part of what we have been hearing from so many people again in these victim impact statements.

Take a listen to another woman who lost a cousin and an aunt back in that shooting in May.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE SPIGHT, AUNT AND COUSIN KILLED IN BUFFALO SHOOTING: I hope you spend the rest of your life, every second, every minute, every hour, rehearsing the daunting sound of the screams and the echoes of the lives you snuffed out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And in many of these, the relatives were looking directly at the shooter, really wanted him to feel the gravity of their words.

And, now, he was eventually sentenced to life in prison without parole for the state charges, which included 10 first-degree murder charges, and among them domestic terrorism motivated by hate, which is the first time that was used.

And then later, during the hearing, the shooter himself stood up and spoke. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAYTON GENDRON, BUFFALO MASS SHOOTER: I did a terrible thing that day. I shot and killed people because they were black.

Looking back now, I can't believe I actually did it. I believed what I read online and acted out of hate. And now I can't take it back. But I wish I could. And I don't want anyone to be inspired by me and what I did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And after he finished, a woman yelled out in the back that: "He doesn't mean it."

She didn't think that he meant those words. And one thing to keep in mind with this, because, obviously, this is playing out at the state level, the death penalty at the federal level is still something that's being considered. We haven't gotten a decision yet from Attorney General Merrick Garland. And so, obviously, these -- all of these things, everything that happened today is likely going into that consideration, though, of note, the shooter's team said that he would plead guilty to his federal charges if it meant that death penalty was taken off the table.

But, obviously, that's a proceeding for a later time. And, for now, these families are left trying to process what happened all over again, Kasie.

HUNT: Yes.

All right, Omar Jimenez, thanks very much for your reporting today. We really appreciate it.

Now let's go to this, a potential blow for prosecutors in the double murder trial of Alex Murdaugh. The judge is barring any testimony related to Murdaugh's alleged suicide-for-hire insurance fraud scheme. In 2021, he allegedly hired a man to kill him, so that his son could receive a $10 million life insurance payout.

CNN's Randi Kaye is outside the courthouse in South Carolina.

Randi, can you break this down for us?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. What a day in court here already.

We have just been watching, Kasie, this video. It's a third interview that Alex Murdaugh did with lead SLED agent, South Carolina Law Enforcement Agent David Owen. And this was done in August of 2021, so just a few months after the murders.

And during this interview, which is quite tense and contentious at times, Alex Murdaugh is crying at times. He's sitting there with a friend who's also a lawyer. He does get to ask his own questions about the investigation as well.

But there was a key moment when the investigator asked him about why he was wearing different clothing late at night after he had called 911 after the murders than he had been wearing earlier in the night on a Snapchat video sent by his son, Paul. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID OWEN, SOUTH CAROLINA LAW ENFORCEMENT: When I met you that night, you were in shorts and a T-shirt. At what point in the evening did you change clothes?

ALEX MURDAUGH, DEFENDANT: I'm not sure. I -- you know, it would have been...

OWEN: Before dinner or after dinner?

MURDAUGH: Well, it would have been -- what time of day was that? I would have thought I had already changed.

OWEN: So, that would have been 7:30, 8:00.

MURDAUGH: I guess I changed when I got back to the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Now, the prosecution has alleged that Alex Murdaugh killed his family and then showered and changed clothes after doing so.

But a couple of other key moments, Kasie, to point out, he did say that -- to that investigator that his wife, Maggie, wanted to come to the hunting property that night, but her sister just testified yesterday that Alex Murdaugh had asked her to come to the hunting property the night of the murders.

Also, he was asked how long he was at his mother's house that night of the murders. He said he was there for about 45 minutes to an hour. The caregiver for his mom has testified he was there for about 15 to 20 minutes. He was also asked at least four times if he had been down to that area where the murders took place, the dog kennels on this hunting estate, earlier in the night.

[13:25:07]

He said no, but we know at least six people have now identified his voice on a video recording that was found on Paul Murdaugh's phone. That video recording was at 8:44 p.m., which would have put him there around the time of the murders.

And, as I said, he got to ask a couple of questions. He did ask the investigator, was this one person, two person or -- two persons or three people that did this? He also asked, who was shot first? Did they live at all after they were shot? Did they know if the other one had been shot?

So he did ask some key questions to the investigator. But another moment was, when the investigator told him they were sure that a family gun had been used, Alex Murdaugh, Kasie, had no reaction to that, being told that for the very first time -- back to you.

HUNT: Randi Kaye, thanks very much for that update.

Coming up next: Nearly 10 days after Turkey's catastrophic earthquake, incredible rescues and stories of survival are still emerging from the rubble.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:30:00]