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Fox News Stars And Executives' Text Messages Trashing Trump's Election Fraud Claims; Court Documents Exposing Fox News; Fox News Refused To Put Trump On Air For Capitol Attack Interview; Judge Rejects Kari Lake's Election Challenge; National Security Council's John Kirby Joins WH Briefing; Biden Meets With NATO Allies In Poland; NSC's Kirby Comments On Downed Flying Objects; NSC's Kirby Comments On Riad On ISIS, 4 U.S. Troops Wounded. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired February 17, 2023 - 13:30:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Oliver, walk us through some of the details from this court documents.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Yes. This is really stunning court document that exposes Fox News as really dishonest media organization. What these documents show is that behind-the-scenes, the highest-ranking Fox executives, people like Rupert Murdoch, and the highest profile Fox News stars, they knew behind-the-scenes and acknowledged Donald Trump's claims of election fraud were bogus, that they were not true, but they continued to push or allow some of these claims to gain a foothold on the channel's air.

I want to read to you just to underscore some of what these Fox stars were texting behind-the-scenes. In one case, Tucker Carlson texted, Sidney Powell is lying by the way. I caught her. It's insane. Sean Hannity, in a deposition, that whole narrative that Sidney Powell was pushing, I did not believe it for one second. Rupert Murdoch, after the January 6th attack, all very well for Sean Hannity to tell you he was in despair about Trump, but what did he tell his viewers?

These messages underscore that Fox knew exactly what was going on behind-the-scenes but they were not honest with their viewers, and that was because they were afraid that their viewers were going to rebel against them if they told the truth. I think this is really highlighted in a couple more messages.

I want to read to you from Fox executives. Suzanne Scott in one message said, the Arizona call, that call that Fox made declaring Biden winner of Arizona, was damaging but we will highlight our stars and plant flags letting the viewers know we are here for them and we respect them. And then, Washington managing editor, Bill Salmon, he had said, it's remarkable how weak ratings make good journalists do bad things.

This is really damning admissions behind-the-scenes from Fox executives, from Fox stars, really painting a bleak picture of how this network operates.

HUNT: We also saw, Oliver, a pretty interesting tidbit about then President Trump trying to call into the network to try and do an interview during the Capitol attack. Can you explain that?

DARCY: That's right. Apparently, according to this dominion filing, and this wasn't even exposed during the January 6th hearings, but according to this dominion filing, Trump tried calling in to Lou Dobbs' show during the January 6th attack and Fox refused to put him on air with an executive saying that it would have been irresponsible given, I think, what the rhetoric that we heard from Trump during that day, to allow him to go on and address viewers.

So, it shows here that they had some editorial judgment at some points in time to the point where they were, you know, not allowing the president of the United States to go on air.

HUNT: That is pretty remarkable, considering the story that was woven by the January 6th Committee about the president watching TV on that day. Pretty interesting information to add to the narrative. Oliver Darcy, thanks very much for your reporting on this.

Let's discuss it all with our CNN Legal Analyst and former White House ethics czar Norm Eisen and the CNN Political Commentator and the host of the "You Decide" podcast, Errol Louis.

Norm, let me start with you. It is one thing to disagree with something that your network airs, but do you think examples in this court filing show that something beyond that was going on? I mean, legally, do they show a disregard for the truth in a way that people could be held accountable for in court?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, HOUSE JUDICIARY SPECIAL COUNSEL IN FIRST TRUMP IMPEACHMENT TRIAL AND FORMER WHITE HOUSE ETHICS CZAR: Kasie, I think they do. In order for dominion to recover damages, and they are potentially looking at billions of dollars of them, they're going to have to show actual malice, that people were going on air and on Fox News and knowingly telling lies or acting with reckless disregard for the truth. And when you see these behind-the-scenes communications from Tucker Carlson, Sidney Powell is lying, from Laura Ingraham to Tucker and to Sean Hannity, Sidney Powell is a bit nuts. Rupert Murdoch, really crazy stuff, but saying the opposite on air, that is legally actionable and it's also just plain wrong. I think it will anger a jury, large potential damages here.

HUNT: So, Errol, what does this mean in the sphere of public opinion, especially with Fox viewers, will they care about it?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICALCOMMENTATOR, POLITICAL ANCHOR, SPECTRUM NEWS AND HOST, "YOU DECIDE" PODCAST: Well, I think they will. The most damaging things that I thought came out in this latest filing is that you have these executives and even some of the hosts talking over and over again about "respecting our audience." And what that meant, according to this filing, is what that really meant was telling people the story they wanted to hear even knowing that the story they wanted to hear was false. Telling people over and over again and giving their very powerful platform over to conspiracy theorists who wanted to spin the most insane ideas, which the producers and the anchors and everybody knew was completely out to lunch, but doing it allegedly in the name of "respecting the audience."

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It is a terrible practice. It is really almost a case study in how not to run a news organization. There is a place to be concerned about the size of your audience and whether they are going off to an even more far-right wing rival platform but that place is not in the newsroom. That is not where you are supposed to be crafting your coverage of one of the most important stories of -- in American history, and that is exactly what they're being alleged to have done and there is no reason to think it's not true.

HUNT: So, Norm, Tucker Carlson is still sowing doubt about the 2020 election results to this day, as of course is Former President Donald Trump. I mean, we cover it when he says those things. Is what is said today, will -- can that become relevant to the lawsuit?

EISEN: It can be because it shows a continuing pattern of disregard. And, Kasie, this filing is going to take its place historically and exposing what has gone on and the continuing danger. I think next to other landmark documents like the January 6th Committee report. And the way to stop this ongoing pattern of lies is to have a trial and force Fox News to pay damages, potentially billions of dollars in damages that could make that company sit up and take notice.

I know these lawyers at Susman Godfrey who are going to try the case. I have worked with them. They are the ones who can really impose a lesson here. A great co-counsel at Clare Locke. So, that is going to be the best remedy for the ongoing misrepresentations by Tucker Carlson and by Fox News.

HUNT: Interesting. And, Errol, we do see -- I mean, obviously, the Murdoch empire extends beyond just Fox and occasionally, we will see signs or reports that there is a split between the Murdochs and Donald Trump, that they're looking for somebody else, there will be a headline in the "New York Post" for example. Is there any reason to believe that the Trump-Fox alliance is actually in a different place? Is it weaker? And would a $1.6 billion verdict affect it?

LOUIS: Regardless of the verdict, I think the trouble that they've been in, the enormous cost, the reputational cost and the financial cost of just defending themselves in this lawsuit, I think, has really sort of sobered up the Murdoch organization.

Rupert Murdoch himself comes across in the filings almost like Dr. Frankenstein. They've created this monster and it has now spun out of their control. There's a very interesting "New York Post" editorial from November 7, 2020, cited in the documents, where he pleads with President Trump -- then President Trump, to accept the results and simply move on and not tarnish his own legacy. That didn't -- it was unheeded. It was unheeded by his audience. It was unheeded by his organization. Ultimately, it led to this disastrous point where -- that they've arrived at. I think Rupert Murdoch himself understands very well that they need to go in another direction. The question is whether or not this financial beast that he has created, this organization, that is so dependent on catering to a select audience, whether or not they are willing to change and go back to basic news gathering. If they can do that, they may be able to survive this.

HUNT: Interesting. So, Norm, I want to ask you about -- there's, of course, another legal battle going on over election conspiracies. There are several across the country. But let's zero in on Republican Kari Lake. She lost the Arizona governor's race by about 17,000 votes, and she was just handed another courtroom defeat in her quest to try and overturn those results. Here is part of the ruling. "The evidence presented to the superior court ultimately supports the court's conclusion that voters were able to cast their ballots, that votes were counted correctly, and that no other basis justifies setting aside the election results."

She says that she will take this to the State Supreme Court. How do you see this playing out? I mean, we do seem to see the system kind of rising up and beating back some of these conspiracies.

EISEN: Yes. That is exactly right. Just like in the Fox News case we were talking about. By the way, the damages -- the base damages are potentially 1.6 billion, that could be multiplied many times over for punitive damages. The courts in Arizona have slapped down Kari Lake's 2022 edition of Trump's election denial. Just like the courts did in those 60 plus cases that Trump lost.

Kasie, Democratic and Republican appointed judges rejecting this hogwash, so anti-Democratic, so dangerous. She is not going to win at any level of the Arizona courts. Sanctions and potential bar discipline are on the horizon for her lawyers. She had a tough time getting lawyers. She said she would even take "Better Call Saul" at one point. And that is the level that she is sinking to. And that's a good thing --

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HUNT: Norm, I am so sorry to have to cut you off. And thank you both for this discussion. But we have to go live to the White House where national security council official John Kirby has joined the White House briefing. Let's listen in.

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ADM. JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN AND COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, NSC: Thanks, Karina (ph). Appreciate it. And thank you all for giving me a chance to come up here and talk on Friday. But as Karina (ph) just mentioned the president is very much looking forward to his trip to Warsaw next week, which is ahead, of course, of the one-year anniversary of Russia's brutal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.

After he lands on Tuesday morning, he will meet with the President Duda of Poland to discuss our bilateral cooperation as well as our collective efforts to support Ukraine and to bolster NATO's deterrence.

Poland, as you know, is a close NATO ally and has been a critical supporter of Ukraine over the past year. President Biden will thank President Duda and thank the Polish people for the $3.8 billion in military and humanitarian assistance that they have provided to Ukraine over the past year and for all the efforts that the Polish people have done to generously welcome more than 1.5 million refugees in Ukraine.

The two leaders will discuss Poland's important logistical role as well in helping the U.S. facilitate deliveries of military humanitarian assistance to Ukraine from not only the United States but from our allies and partners. The president will also have a chance to thank Poland for how they hosted now an increased number of U.S. forces, including those that are permanently stationed and those who were deployed to Europe as part of our force posture adjustments, the ones that we announced last year following Russia's invasion, are some 10,000 American troops in Poland right now, most of them on rotational orders.

On Tuesday evening local time, President Biden will deliver remarks in Warsaw on how the United States has rallied the world to support the people of Ukraine and as they defend their freedom and democracy. President Biden will make it clear that the United States will continue to stand with Ukraine, as you've heard him say many times for as long as it takes.

And on Wednesday, President Biden will get a chance to meet with the leaders of the Bucharest 9, otherwise known as the B-9, and these largely the group of eastern flank NATO allies who are basically and quite frankly, literally on the front lines of our collective defense right now. And he'll do so to reaffirm the United States' unwavering support for the security of that alliance and Transatlantic unity.

The leaders will discuss our efforts over the past year to strengthen NATO, which is stronger now, more united than it was -- than it has ever been, and how each of our nations will continue to work together as allies to continue our unwavering support for Ukraine.

This is an important trip for the president and it comes at an important moment. It also follows days of diplomacy at the Munich Security Conference where the vice president, the secretary of state, the senior director here at the NSC for Europe, and many other cabinet members, administration officials, members of Congress are all meeting with our allies and partners to discuss our enduring support for the people of Ukraine, as well as our Transatlantic unity and our iron clad support for our NATO allies in light of all of the changes to the European security environment over the last year. And as the president believes, that security environment has changed. Not is changing, not will change, has changed.

In fact, Vice President Harris is meeting with foreign leaders, including Chancellor Scholz of Germany, President Macron of France. Tomorrow, the vice president will deliver a keynote address about our support for Ukraine and the atrocities that Russian forces continue to commit against the Ukrainian people. As you all know, close coordination with our allies and partners has been a priority for President Biden since taking office and throughout the past year, as we support Ukraine. In addition to his engagements in Poland, President Biden is looking forward to hosting Chancellor Scholz at the White House on March 3rd, and the president will be speaking with a number of our allies next week on the phone, including Prime Minister Sunak of the United Kingdom, President Macron of France, Prime Minister Meloni of Italy.

As we approach the one-year mark since this invasion, we can proudly say that our support for Ukraine remains unwavering and our alliances and our international coalition in support of Ukraine remain stronger than ever.

With that, I'll be taking some questions.

I beg your pardon? On, no. We're back to my age again. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, I actually have a brief follow up on the balloon incidents earlier this week.

KIRBY: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen the story in Aviation Week that an Illinois hobby club feels like their balloon might have been a candidate for the balloon shot a week ago?

KIRBY: I have seen that (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any response to that? Because it is very particular location in the last set of data that they got?

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KIRBY: Yes. We just can't confirm those reports or what the remains of that balloon might actually end up being. And we haven't recovered it. So, it's very difficult until you get your hands on something to be able to tell. And because of where it is, over Lake Huron, I mean, we all have to accept the possibility that we may not be able to recover it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quickly following up what the president said yesterday. He said that it was out of an abundance of caution. But an anecdote like this, does it make any sort of reconsideration that perhaps this was an overreaction at any point over the past week?

KIRBY: So, I'd ask you to, just for a second, put yourself in his shoes. Certainly, in light of the Chinese spy balloon and what was a very real, certainly very sizable and tangible security threat, surveillance threat to the United States in the wake of that.

So, the military fine tunes their radar parameters to see more. And of course, they're finding more. And you've got these three. And they are unidentified, they're not responding to any kind of communication. So, we don't know who owns them or what their purpose is. You know, and they are flying in sovereign U.S. air space. They are also at altitudes that could affect the safety of civilian air traffic. And based on the flight path and the prevailing winds, potentially moving over sensitive military sites.

And the military leaders come to you and they say, Mr. President, we don't know what these are. We're concerned about what they could be and about where they could be going and what the purpose might be. And we recommend that you take these down in the safe -- you know, in the interests of safety and security of the American people and out of an abundance of caution. And the president acted on that recommendation because he takes so seriously his responsibilities to protect this country, our secrets, our interests, and our people.

So, the short answer to your question is, absolutely not. You know, given the situation we were in, the information available, the recommendation of our military commanders, it was exactly the right thing to do at exactly the right time.

Now, going forward, and you heard the president talk about this yesterday, we're going to make sure we've got some new rules in place for how we make decisions in future circumstances. That doesn't mean -- and it doesn't mean -- and you heard the president say this yesterday, it doesn't mean that there won't be additional shootdowns if he believes there is a legitimate threat to our safety and security. But it does mean that we're going to put a new set of parameters on the decision-making process going forward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But just last, following on that, everything you've just said, can that co-exist? Please, let me rephrase. Was there any feeling of frustration of perhaps this was a $12 hobby balloon from a group of kids in Illinois after the fact?

KIRBY: Again, given the information that we had at the time and the legitimate concerns about potential surveillance in the wake of the Chinese spy balloon, you make decisions based on the best information that you have. And ultimately, you have to come down to some core principles when you're making decisions as commander-in-chief.

Of course, the most core principle of all is safety and security of the American people and our interest. So, again, I say to you, the short answer to that is no. And frankly, given the circumstances in light of what happened with this spy balloon, wouldn't that be a better outcome if it turns out they were in fact civilian or recreational use or weather balloon and therefore, benign, which is what the intelligence community thinks, isn't that a better outcome than to have to think about the possibility of greater threats to our national security?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, John, I take that to mean you guys don't have any plans to reimburse the Bottlecap Balloon Brigade?

KIRBY: I don't know of any plans to reimburse. We honestly don't know what this is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More generally speaking, what can you tell Americans about what they should expect in the future understanding that these new parameters are going to be classified, if they see something in the air, should there be any concern that a missile is going to follow it?

KIRBY: Again, we are not going to rule anything out, in or out, in terms of how we're going to treat additional potential unidentified aircraft. I thought the president did a terrific job yesterday of putting this into some context and making it clear to the American people that their safety will always come first. That these are likely -- we're going to find out that they were likely of a benign purpose and not a threat at all. So, there shouldn't be any overarching concern by the American people that the skies are somehow full of attack balloons or that they're at greater risk.

If anything, look back at how we dealt with this, again, with information that we had that wasn't complete but yet legitimate concerns about a threat and dealing with that threat safely and efficiently. Nobody hurt. Nobody hurt as these balloons were taken down. And I think that that should give the American people a measure of comfort and confidence.

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But the president wants to make sure that as we go forward, we do so smartly and we do so effectively. And that is why he wants a set of new rules determined so that we can now deal with these in a -- perhaps a different way, you know, in the future.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While we have you here, what can you tell us about this ISIS raid in Syria.

KIRBY: Yes. So, I think you saw Central Command put a statement out that -- last night, U.S. military and SDF partner forces conducted a helicopter raid against an ISIS senior leader, a man named Hamza al- Homsi. And he was overseeing the group's deadly terrorist network in Eastern Syria before he was killed in the raid.

As the Pentagon has reported, an explosion during the raid also resulted in four U.S. troops and one of the working dogs suffering some injuries. The troops and the working dog are in stable conditions, are being treated at a U.S. medical facility in Iraq, and I think the Pentagon will have more information on that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. In the back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks, Karina (ph). Thanks, John. So, first two questions. First, will the American public eventually find out what these three unidentified objects are, including which companies they belong to or which specific benign purposes they have?

KIRBY: We would like nothing better but I can't promise you that we will get to that level of fidelity of detail. A lot of it is going to depend on inability to recover these three objects. And just to remind you, one is on sea ice in the north of Alaska in arctic conditions, extremely bad winter weather up there. They have not been able to really mount anything on the ice to find them now. The other in the Yukon territory, thick wilderness. And as of today, I don't believe the Royal Canadian Mountain Police or their investigative organizations have been able to get to it. And then, the other one fell over Lake Huron, again, in very deep water. I think the Canadians have decided that they are not going to look for it anymore. I don't believe that the United States has made a call on that yet.

So, pretty tough conditions, going to be very difficult to find them let alone, once you find that debris, to be able to do the forensics to identify it. So, I can't promise you that we'll know definitively one way or the other.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a question on President Biden's talk with Xi Jinping. So, as the administration is trying to ease tensions, the House Select Committee on China trying to focus on human rights abuses by the regime, by planning hearings, et cetera, on that topic. Will President Biden bring up human rights issues with Xi Jinping?

KIRBY: The president never fails to bring up human rights concern. And when he met with President Xi in Bali, he brought it up then. And it's not just with President Xi, the president believes that you have to lead with your values, particularly in foreign position. He's never shy about bringing that up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John, what's the likelihood that President Biden meets with President Zelenskyy next week?

KIRBY: There's no meeting -- you mean, talking about on the trip? There's no meeting with President Zelenskyy scheduled for the trip right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And related to President Xi in that call with President Biden as well, have tensions cooled enough to where the two leaders can jump on the phone together right now?

KIRBY: There is an open line of communication. And I'm not denying that there aren't still tensions, particularly in the wake of the spy balloon. We don't believe it's the appropriate time right now for Secretary Blinken to travel to Beijing. And you heard the president that he will want to have another conversation with President Xi, as you might expect that he would. But we don't have anything on the schedule right now and we'll have to do that at the time when the president believes it's appropriate.

What's really important here -- and I know the question was about President Biden and President Xi is that the lines of communication with the PRC remain open. I recognize that there are tensions, but Secretary Blinken still has an open line of communication with the foreign minister. We still have an embassy in Beijing with a terrific ambassador, Nick Burns. And the State Department also can communicate directly with PRC's embassy personnel here. So, the lines are open.

Unfortunately, the military lines aren't open. And that's really what we would like to see amended and it was, of course, curtailed after Speaker Pelosi's trip to Taiwan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that preconditioned for a call? KIRBY: There's no preconditions for a call. The president will want to have a conversation with President Xi at the appropriate time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thanks, Kirby. Just a quick one on the president's trip --

HUNT: You have been listening to John Kirby there in the White House briefing room, talking a little about President Biden's planned trip to Poland to mark the anniversary of the Ukraine war, as well as answering some questions about the Chinese spy balloon. We're going to keep listening to that and bring you any news as it comes. But that's going to do it for me this hour. Don't go anywhere. We'll have so much news coming up right after this.

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello there. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

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