Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

VP Harris: Russia Committed Crimes Against Humanity; North Korea Launches Long-Range Ballistic Missile; U.S. Military Calls Off Search For Chinese Spy Balloon And Objects Shot Down; Interview With Rep. John Garamendi (D-CA); Ohio Residents Still Fearful Weeks After Toxic Chemical Spill; Mississippi Rampage; Louisiana Officer Charged In Fatal Shooting Of Unarmed Black Man; Feds Search Pence's D.C. Office But Don't Find Any New Classified Docs. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired February 18, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:52]

PAULA REID, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. Thanks for joining me. I'm Paula Reid in for Fredricka Whitfield.

Crimes against humanity. Vice President Kamala Harris not pulling any punches as she describes Russia's war in Ukraine. Speaking at the Munich Security Conference, the vice president laying out exactly where the U.S. stands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the case of Russia's actions in Ukraine, we have examined the evidence. We know the legal standards, and there is no doubt these are crimes against humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: The U.S. pledging enduring support for Ukraine as the war nears its one-year mark. President Biden is expected to visit Poland next week and the U.S. Secretary of State also speaking this morning at the Munich Security Conference.

CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson is there.

Nic, we also heard the vice president call out China for its support of Russia during this war. What did you make of that moment?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. I think it got a lot of resonance in the room. Everyone here recognizes that China is the next big threat, perhaps not in quite the same way that the United States does, but there's commonality on that. Commonality on the understanding that the way the relationship has been with Russia, sort of the world dependent on Russian oil and gas, economies tied to Russia, if you will. That cannot be allowed to exist with China. So I spoke with the European Commission President Ursula Von Der

Leyen, the European figure here about what she sees China's relationship with Russia at the moment. And as she said, China has signed a memorandum of agreement with Russia for full support. She said everyone is looking to see if that support includes military support.

She has the same view that Europe cannot be economically dependent on an aggressive China, that security comes ahead of the economy. So I think that was a message that resonated in the room here. People very keen to see exactly what China does. Does it give military support? So far, that's not seen, but it's giving a lot of other support in the meantime, like buying Russian oil.

REID: That's a great point. And Nic, it's not just the U.S. Of course France, the U.K. and others also pledging continued support for Ukraine. Will that be enough though to turn the tide of this war?

ROBERTSON: The sense here is that it could be. You know, speaking to people who are watching the Ukrainians getting training at the moment on tanks and other equipment, there's a real sense that the Ukrainians are really ready to learn super quick, that they want to get back in the battlefield with the new equipment.

And the understanding is that if that training can be coordinated, if the equipment being sent to Ukraine can be coordinated and accelerated, that even by this summer that could be used effectively by the Ukrainians, what's sort of called a combined arms offensive, where you have not only the tanks operating, but you have engineers doing demining. You have infantry troops who are sort of taking on the front lines which is exactly what Ukraine wants to do.

So there's a hope and belief here that all this support that's coming from all the allies -- from France, from Germany, from the U.K., from Sweden, from Norway, from Spain, from Portugal, from Poland -- it's all contributing. It's a matter of bringing it together effectively, and the Ukrainians -- if everyone gets it right -- could see some success as early as this summer.

[11:04:50]

REID: Nic Robertson in Munich, thank you.

And the White House is condemning North Korea's launch of a presumed long range ballistic missile Saturday, calling it a flagrant violation of U.N. security resolutions.

CNN's senior international correspondent Will Ripley joins me now with the latest. Will, what's behind this latest launch?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the North Koreans are trying to probably make -- to prove that their ballistic missile and nuclear program has now advanced to the point that these solid fuel missiles that they unveiled at their big military parade in Pyongyang last week that could be mass-produced. In fact Kim Jong-un has ordered, you know, the mass production of these nuclear-capable, solid-fuel ICBMs. And solid fuel is very dangerous because they can just roll it out of a cave or somewhere in hiding without having to set it up and fill it up with fuel well within view of spy satellites. This could be a surprise attack kind of weapon.

So we don't know if this latest ICBM is one of their new solid fuel mockups that they displayed in their parade or is it something like the Hwosong-17 which North Korea last tested back in November.

Both of these ICBMs were in the air for more than an hour -- an hour and 8 minutes to be precise. And they both traveled extraordinarily fast. We're talking something like 22 times the speed of sound.

North Korea fires these weapons, they test them on what's called a highly lofted trajectory. So they fire up, you know, hundreds and hundreds of miles above the earth, they essentially go into space.

But if they were to be launched on a flatter trajectory, theoretically these missiles could reach the mainland U.S. And that's why the United States is, not only condemning and pointing out the U.N. Security Council violations, but also urging other countries to condemn North Korea as well.

The problem is it's really difficult for the U.N. Security Council, as you know Paula, to get anything done lately with North Korea because China and Russia have permanent members and they have veto power. And they're just not cooperating with any sort of an issues that the United States has, whether it be North Korea or obviously much anything else.

REID: Will Ripley, thank you so much.

The U.S. military has called off the recovery operation for that Chinese spy balloon that was shot down off the coast of South Carolina earlier this month. Navy search teams were able to successfully retrieve debris from the large balloon in the Atlantic Ocean. They sent those pieces to an FBI lab in Virginia where they're being examined.

The military has also ended the search for the flying objects shot down over Lake Huron and Alaska after days of fruitless searches.

CNN's Jasmine Wright is at the White House for us.

All right. Jasmine, what is the Biden administration saying about these developments?

JASMINE WRIGHT, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, Paula. Well, the U.S. military issued the statement late last night announcing that they will be calling off the recovery efforts for those two objects downed over Lake Huron and Alaska.

Now, the implication here, Paula, is that now it is very unlikely that Americans will really receive a fulsome explanation about exactly it is that the Biden administration shot down.

Still though, the military said that they had used a variety of capabilities and that included imagery, airborne censors, below-the- surface sensors and ultimately they were unable to find any debris.

Now the Canadians issued a similar statement last night saying that because of the snowfall in the area that it was shot down in the Yukon region, about 100 miles from border of the U.S.-Canada, that they were also unable to find debris. And so they called off their search as well.

Now, this is important because the Biden administration for the last two weeks has really said that they needed to find the actual debris to be able to accurately identify what these objects were. And over the course of the last week, we really heard some doubts from administration officials saying that it was unlikely that they would be able to find it. Now, that doubt became reality last night when they officially called off those searches.

Now President Biden really breaking his silence here on Thursday about all of the objects that have been shot down. He tried to level with the American people. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't have any evidence that there has been a sudden increase in the number of objects in the sky. We're now just seeing more of them partially because the steps we've taken to increase our radars.

But make no mistake. If any object presents a threat to the safety and security of the American people, I will take it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WRIGHT: so there the president was talking about his main concern, the American people. Now the president also said that it was -- there was no evidence to say that those three objects downed over the last week were connected to that first Chinese spy balloon downed over the Atlantic Ocean near the South Carolina coast.

[11:09:44]

WRIGHT: And officials said afterwards that the leading theory is that those three objects downed were likely benign. But of course, we'll be looking for the president, from the White House and the Biden administration to talk more about that Chinese spy balloon as recovery efforts are -- excuse as recovery efforts are over and really the analysis part continues in Virginia, Paula.

REID: Jasmine Wright, thank you so much.

And for more, I'm joined now by California Congressman John Garamendi. He is a member of the House Armed Services Committee.

Vice President Kamala Harris, as you heard earlier, Congressman, was in Germany today speaking at the Munich Security Conference. She said that the U.S. has now formally determined that Russia has committed crimes against humanity. So what should the U.S. response be now in wake of her declaration?

REP. JOHN GARAMENDI (D-CA): Well, continue doing exactly what we're doing, continue to support Ukraine, put them in a position to win this. And that issue of a formal declaration of crimes against humanity will sit there and be ready when the time comes for Russia to sign a peace negotiation with Ukraine, and also Putin and his henchmen be held accountable personally for what they have done in Ukraine.

So it's there. It's an important step.

REID: On Friday, a bipartisan group of lawmakers sent a letter to President Biden asking his administration to send F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine. Now, they say the provision of such aircraft is necessary to help Ukraine protect its airspace, particularly in light of renewed Russian offenses and considering the expected increase in large-scale combat operations.

Do you agree with your colleagues? Should the U.S. send F-16s to Ukraine?

GARAMENDI: We should supply Ukraine with everything they need. The question of the F-16s is a very complicated one. It's a very sophisticated airplane, sophisticated technologies on it and it requires a significant maintenance program to go with it.

All of that needs to be brought together. We are moving with our allies to bring to Ukraine aircraft, fighter aircraft that they're familiar with. These are the Russian makes and various models. Those they know how to equip, those they are already prepared and trained to use. So that would be the first way to go here.

Secondly, we need to keep in mind that Russia has a very, very sophisticated air defense system, the S-400. It has a very, very long range. And so the question is would these planes be useful on the eastern front?

Probably not because the S-400s which are there along the Russian border, can easily take out those planes if they fly anywhere near the front line.

REID: The vice president also announced that the U.S. is, quote, "troubled" by China's support of Russia. China's top diplomat is expected to visit Russia later this month. How troubled are you by this seemingly cozy relationship?

GARAMENDI: It's a very, very serious matter. China is in a position to provide very significant military equipment to Russia should it decide to do so. We have to make every effort, put every pressure and make it clear to the Chinese that it would not be in their short and long-term interest to further support Russia. Certainly they're doing it with regard to purchasing oil, thereby allowing Russia to be able to finance its war.

And so there are a lot of other pieces to China here. and this is why the Ukraine war is so extraordinarily important.

If, as some of my colleagues have suggested, we pull out and not support Ukraine and Ukraine collapses, that's a signal, a very powerful signal for China that the United States will not stay the course in the western Pacific and, therefore, China will be even more aggressive.

REID: President Biden is expected to visit Poland next week, just a few days before the one year anniversary of Russia's invasion. And you just visited Poland yourself last week. What did you take away from your trip?

GARAMENDI: Well first and foremost is that NATO is all in, particularly the NATO countries on the eastern flank -- Greece, Bulgaria, Poland and then up into the Baltics. They are very, very concerned. They see Russia as a very existential threat to them. And they have reason to be concerned.

Keep in mind that before this war started the United States and NATO engaged in a diplomatic effort with Russia. Russia's demands ultimately causing the collapse, Russia essentially sent NATO out of eastern Europe, and basically Russia wants to re-establish the Warsaw Pact, gain control over those eastern European countries.

[11:14:47]

GARAMENDI: The eastern European countries look at that and say, oh, my God, we're all in. We're going to do everything we possibly can to see that Ukraine wins this war so that our security is advanced.

REID: What message does President Biden need to make with this trip?

GARAMENDI: He said it at the State of the Union. He said it again this last week, and that is the United States is all in. We're not going to back off. The administration is very, very clear that we're going to follow through with everything that is necessary and useful. And we're going to stay there for as long as it takes.

Now, a couple of my -- well several of my Republican colleagues and one or two Democrats are saying no, no, no, we've got to cut and run. Absolutely not. We have to stay with this. The president is clear, his message is clear to Congress and more importantly to Russia and China.

REID: Now, the U.S. Military says it's ending the recovery efforts of that Chinese spy balloon and the other objects shot down over the coast of Alaska and Lake Huron. Are you satisfied with how these situations have been handled?

GARAMENDI: Well, I think in many respects the president handled it as well as could be. This incident really started with the Chinese spy balloon. No doubt that was a problem. The end result of it is they probably learned absolutely nothing that they already didn't know from their satellites.

They may have been able to ground proof that the satellites were accurately assuring what was going on. The bottom line of this is we learned more what the Chinese learned.

We learned what they're up to. We learned what their capabilities are in addition to the satellites as well as communications systems back and forth.

We had a whole week to gather signals intelligence and we have their little black box. And so ultimately it was a success.

Now, with regard to these other balloons, I think we're going to find out that there are some volunteer organizations out there that do weather balloons, and they may have lost three of their weather balloons along the way.

I understand why we shut this thing down. It is winter in the Arctic. It is cold, the snows are there and maybe in the spring we'll be able to renew the search.

But right now, the president and the military has done the right thing. Back off. We're not going to get involved as the snow gets deeper trying to find these three weather balloons or whatever they are.

REID: Leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

Congressman, thank you so much for coming on.

GARAMENDI: Thank you. Have a good day.

And federal support is finally on its way to Ohio as residents of East Palestine complain of smells, headaches and sickness after a train carrying hazardous chemicals crashed weeks ago. The latest, next.

Plus, a man goes on a shooting spree in a small Mississippi town, killing six people including his ex-wife. What we know about the suspect straight ahead.

[11:17:53]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Residents in East Palestine, Ohio still frightened and frustrated in the wake of a fiery train derailment two weeks ago. Ohio Governor Mike DeWine says FEMA is deploying its regional assistance team to help after the derailment caused a toxic spill.

Residents are worried that rashes and headaches and other symptoms may be tied to chemicals from the crash. Emergency teams are still testing air, water and soil samples in the area.

CNN's Polo Sandoval joins me now with more details. Polo, what are you learning?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Paula. Good to be with you.

Here we are, over two weeks since that disaster and there are still many concerns that continue to build there in eastern Ohio when it comes to some of the sickness that some individuals are feeling. You've touched on some of it here.

Some people coming forward feeling various symptoms and the concerns are over many of these hazardous chemicals at the site here, and what we're hearing from several people on the ground, they've developed things like rashes, sore throats, nausea, headaches, after returning to their homes this week following that February 3rd incident.

And the concerns are not just here where this clean up as you can see in some of these footage continues. But also downriver as well to some of the communities.

Now, officials there on the ground including like the local, state and federal level, they're hoping to reassure people in the community saying that they have tested the water and the air quality in hundreds of homes and they don't believe that it is a threat at this point. Nonetheless, they continue to monitor it.

But as you're about to hear from at least three area residents, that is doing little to calm their concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTINA FERGUSON, EAST PALESTINE RESIDENT: We need help. We do. We need President Biden. We need FEMA housing. People are getting sick.

JAMI COZZA, EAST PALESTINE RESIDENT: The railroad sent out his toxologist (SIC) who deemed my house not safe. But had I not used my voice, had I not thrown a fit, I would be sitting in that house right now when they told me that it was safe.

JIM STEWART, EAST PALESTINE RESIDENT: I don't recommend you put anything in the ground. I mean vegetables or tomatoes or anything this year because we don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: It's a big sense of uncertainty for so many of the residents there in East Palestine. Now in terms of what's expected to happen in the coming days, the federal government sending in toxicologists and other medical personnel to assist some of these individuals with their medical concerns, wondering whether or not it's directly linked to that train derailment that we saw earlier this month. As well as FEMA announcing late yesterday that, as you said a little while ago, they will be basically adding to the assets on the ground, hopefully calming some of those concerns which are understandably still present today, Paula.

REID: Polo Sandoval, thank you so much for that report.

And next hour, the black man killed by Shreveport police will be laid to rest. Investigators say Alonzo Bagley was unarmed at the time of the shooting. We'll bring you the body camera footage of the incident, next.

[11:24:58]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: The Tate County sheriff's office in Mississippi has named the suspect in the shooting of six people Friday. Police say 52-year-old Richard Dale Crum went on a shooting spree in the small town. He is now facing first degree murder charges.

According to authorities, Crum opened fire in a store parking lot, then drove to his ex-wife's house fatally shooting her. Four other people were found shot and killed both inside and nearby the suspect's residence.

President Biden releasing a statement on the shooting saying, "Enough. Mere 48 days into the year and our nation has already suffered at least 73 mass shootings. Thoughts and prayers aren't enough. Gun violence is an epidemic and Congress must now act. We owe action to American communities being torn apart by gun violence."

[11:29:59]

REID: Of course, the shooting is under investigation at this time. And there is no clear motive.

And this hour the funeral services will be held for victims of the Michigan State University mass shooting. Brian Fraser and Alexandria Verner will be laid to rest today. These are live pictures from Brian's funeral in Grosse Pointe Ferns (ph). The third victim, Arielle Anderson, will be remembered on Tuesday.

This afternoon Michigan Athletics resume and are expected to honor the victims during the opening of the men's and women's basketball games. Three students died and five others were injured after a gunman opened fire on the campus earlier this week. It's still unclear why the gunman, a 43-year-old man with no known ties to MSU targeted the university.

And funeral services will be held next hour for an unarmed black man shot by police in Louisiana. 43-year-old Alonzo Bagley was killed earlier this month after Shreveport police responded to a domestic disturbance call at an apartment complex.

This week, Shreveport Officer Alexander Tyler was arrested on a charge of negligent homicide in Bagley's death.

CNN's Isabel Rosales is following the story. Isabel, Louisiana state police have now released body camera footage of the shooting. Walk us through what it shows.

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, the entire incident took under two minutes but it ended with a man taking his last breath on police camera footage and a police officer, the man who shot him, breaking down crying.

I will show you that police encounter, but first, a warning these images are graphic and may not be suitable for everyone.

This all started two weeks ago, February 3rd, at an apartment complex where police come up to the door of Alonzo Bagley, knock on his door but he refuses to come out saying he's got to put his dogs away.

Police officers enter the home of Bagley there, and then they start to notice that he's making a run for it. You see him right thee jumping over the balcony and running on foot.

Police officers chase him. We know that Alexander Tyler chased him with his gun out, according to state police investigators. And this is the moment frozen right before that shot is fired. You can see Bagley right there with his hands up. Investigators did not find any weapon on him.

Shortly after he is shot, we see the other police officer that's unnamed with Officer Tyler beginning to do chest compressions, calling EMS. And then you will hear in this clip the person that's crying is Officer Tyler, the man who shot Bagley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please. No, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey. Come on, come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no. Man, no. No, man, no. No. No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, dude.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dispatch, send EMS right now, 1018, 1018.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, dude. Stay with me. Stay with me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: The family attorney highlighting in conversations with CNN with us just how quickly Louisiana state police took action by arresting and charging Officer Tyler and also the importance of body camera footage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD HALEY, BAGLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY: A short flight takes place, but flight is not a death sentence. Flight does not mean shoot to kill. Flight does not mean judge, jury and executioner. That's what happened here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: Meanwhile Tyler, Officer Tyler's attorney Drew Thompson says that while Bagley was not armed, it doesn't mean that he didn't present a threat to police officers, so perhaps Paula, a preview of what is to come in court.

REID: Isabel Rosales, thank you so much for that report.

And former Vice President Pence is vowing to fight the subpoena from the special counsel looking into Trump's January 6th actions. We'll discuss with a former top DOJ official who helped to oversee the special counsel investigation into Russian meddling. That's next.

[11:34:26]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: And federal investigators search former Vice President Mike Pence's Washington, D.C. office on Friday but a Pence aide says they did not find any new classified documents. This search followed an FBI search of his Indiana home last week. This comes as Pence is now vowing to fight a January 6th subpoena from the special counsel.

CNN's Jeremy Herb is joining us now. All right. Jeremy, what more do we know about this latest document search?

JEREMY HERB, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yes Paula, that's right. Federal investigators on Friday, they searched former vice president's former Washington, D.C. office as part of a DOJ review into the former vice president's handling of any classified material.

Now, a Pence spokesman told us this latest search did not turn up any additional classified documents. Pence's Indiana home was also searched by the FBI last week, and that search found one additional classified document.

Now, of course, let's take a step back. This review here, it was launched after Pence -- a lawyer for Pence found about a dozen classified documents at his Indiana home last month. Pence asked his lawyer to conduct this search in light of President Biden's own discovery of classified material at his former office and residence.

Now Pence's aides, they've emphasized that he is cooperating fully with this investigation into for classified material. But Pence is not being so cooperative when it comes to special counsel Jack Smith's January 6th investigation as Pence is vowing to fight a subpoena for him to testify.

[11:39:59]

HERB: Listen here to his reaction earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will fight the subpoena from Biden's DOJ and I will stand firmly on the constitution of the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HERB: Now, Pence has argued that he is protected by the Constitution's speech and debate clause for Congress saying that he was acting as president of the Senate when he carried out his duties on January 6th.

Now, this is an argument he said this week he's willing to take to the Supreme Court to try to fight the subpoena, Paula. REID: And Mike Pence isn't the only former Trump official being

subpoenaed. Former chief of staff Mark Meadows has also been subpoenaed by the special counsel. What have you learned about that?

HERB: Yes, that's right. Mark Meadows has been subpoenaed and like Pence, we expect him to fight the subpoena from the special counsel just as he fought a subpoena in the Georgia, Fulton County, investigation before he was ultimately ordered to testify.

Now, remember Mark Meadows is in the middle of all of former President Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. We learned from text messages that Mark Meadows turned over to the January 6th committee that he was involved with efforts both in Congress and at the Justice Department to try to stop Biden's election win.

What we're learning now from both the stances here of Pence and Meadows is that while why the special counsel's investigation is clearly ramping up, it's going to be a difficult road for the special counsel in court to try to convince these former Trump aides and officials to testify.

REID: We also got this week some portions of a Georgia grand jury report on election interference in that state. What did these portions of the report say about possible charges?

HERB: Yes, Paula. We learned about one potential charge that could come out of this Georgia grand jury. And that's perjury. Now what was released this week was just portions of the grand jury's report on efforts to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia.

And what the grand jury recommended was that one or more witnesses may have committed perjury when they testified. We learned that the grand jury heard from 75 witnesses in all, and that's everyone from election officials and state officials to election deniers and some of former President Trump's aides and advisers.

Now, what we don't know is who exactly it is that the grand jury believes committed perjury as there were no names in this report. We also don't know what other charges were included or potentially recommended to the Fulton County district attorney. We're just going to have to bait for wait for that, including the biggest question of all, which is whether the district will ultimately charge Donald Trump, Paula.

REID: And she says her decision is imminent. Jeremy Herb, thank you so much.

And joining me now is Ed O'Callaghan. He was a top official at the Justice Department during the Trump administration. He was the liaison between the Justice Department and special counsel Robert Mueller. And prior to that he was a prosecutor in the southern district of New York for almost a decade.

Ed, thank you so much for being with us.

There are many former Justice Department officials -- I swear half of them are on TV. But have a really unique perspective to help us understand everything that's going on here. Let's start with Mark Meadows.

Obviously he is not just a witness for the special counsel investigating January 6th. He is the witness, but they're already facing some legal challenges. How do you see this playing out?

ED O'CALLAGHAN, FORMER DOJ ADVISER DURING MUELLER SPECIAL COUNSEL: Thank you for having me, Paula. It is interesting to see this playing out with the top former officials being subpoenaed now. I will say as a former prosecutor, it's not so surprising to me that these are happening now.

Jack Smith has been -- he was appointed special counsel in November, but he's only been on the ground here since January. And what I suspect has happened is that Jack Smith has met now with his team to see what has been done and what hasn't been done, and the fact that subpoenas went out to some of these top officials now seems like it's the right course to me. The other thing I would caution is that Jack Smith being the seasoned prosecutor he is, and knowing not just the track record here of some of the witnesses who have been subpoenaed in terms of asserting various privileges that may protect them from having to give testimony.

Jack Smith knows that these folks would likely assert several privileges. And that means that there's going to be some litigation over them. And so it's no surprise that Jack Smith has gone ahead and issued these subpoenas and now it's going to be a matter within the courts to determine the parameters of how he's able to enforce those subpoenas, what these witnesses will or will not have to testify to.

REID: A lot of folks have said this week because they're targeting Trump's inner circle, that they are likely in the final phase of this investigation. Is that how you read this?

[11:44:56]

O'CALLAGHAN: Hard to tell, Paula. It is -- certainly they've made progress. There's no doubt about that. But like I said, I do think it's more of Jack Smith really getting his arms around the evidence that he has -- that has already been accumulated, seeing what -- frankly, what stones have not been unturned yet and then proceeding in a somewhat orderly fashion to try to get whatever additional evidence he thinks may be necessary.

And that would include anything that he could get from some of these top officials who would assume that there were conversations with attorneys for these officials to try see whether they would come and meet with them voluntarily. And presumably those discussions did not prove fruitful leading Jack Smith to have to issue subpoenas to them.

And another subpoena issued to former Vice President Mike Pence. He has been very public this week, loudly saying that he is going to fight this all the way to the Supreme Court. Some people have suggested that it is political messaging. But the "Wall Street Journal" editorial board coming to his defense

saying the subpoena, quote, "looks like overkill" since it comes more than two years after the Capitol riot and related events that are now well known.

Going on to say, and his stand on January 6th certifying election results, earned him the benefit of the doubt about his motives.

If Jack Smith even reads this or some of his prosecutors likely will, does an argument like this hold water to prosecutors, or will they pursue him regardless?

O'CALLAGHAN: So it's an incredibly fascinating constitutional question, but in terms of just a practical prosecutor's take on it, which I would apply in my role as a former assistant, you need to try to get evidence where you believe it resides. And so, if Jack Smith looks at all of the evidence he already has, determines that there might be some additional fruitful avenue to pursue, he's going to pursue that.

I will say, again as a former line prosecutor who did a number of investigations involving congressional members and staffers, it is a very difficult effort for prosecutors to try to pierce the speech or debate protections that are afforded under the constitution to the business of both chambers of Congress. It is a difficult and high hurdle to pass. But that doesn't mean that it can't be surpassed.

And most likely what will happen is this will again be put before a judge who will evaluate the different arguments on both sides of the coin and come up with a solution as to within the various authorities that the individual is acting, either as senate of the president or as vice president giving counsel to the president where the prosecutors could actually ask questions within the parameters of the various privileges that might apply.

REID: The Trump administration just continues to yield fascinating and unprecedented constitutional questions.

But I want to pivot to another special counsel, the special counsel investigating classified documents found at multiple locations connected to President Biden. That special counsel is Rob Hur. You know him well. You worked together at the Justice Department. How do you think he's going to approach this investigation?

O'CALLAGHAN: He's going to approach it very diligently, Paula. Rob is again -- he was the U.S. attorney in Maryland. He was -- he sat in the seat I succeeded him into, within the deputy attorney general's office with regard to special counsel Mueller's investigation.

And he's just a very thoughtful prosecutor with extreme integrity. So what he's going to do, frankly, is going to follow a similar path. Again, there was some investigation that was conducted before Rob was named special counsel here. He will evaluate that and then make decisions as to, again, what stones have not yet been unturned, where he thinks avenues of evidence may still lie and pursue that. He'll have to get a team assembled as well which I know he is likely

doing. And they will ask questions of people around the current president, just like Jack Smith is asking about officials from the former president.

And we may see indeed some similar assertions of various privileges during Rob Hur's special counsel investigation as well.

REID: Great. Ed O'Callaghan, your expertise and experience is invaluable. Thank you so much for joining us.

O'CALLAGHAN: Thanks for having me.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: We'll be right back.

[11:49:50]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Hockey fans went wild in Detroit for a 4-year-old who was carrying a great big sign during the game with between the Red Wings and Vancouver Canucks.

CNN's Jeanne Moos has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was George's first hockey game and the jumbotron ate him up. Detroit Red Wing fans plans booing, opposing fans from Vancouver cheering. Every time George came up even if he didn't quite get it, the opposition -- the home team.

[11:54:53]

MOOS: George finally cracked a smile and went viral. "King George" they called him. "I see a George bobblehead night."

But it didn't give George a big head.

CHELSEA MILLER, GEORGE'S MOTHER: It's like he didn't know it was about him. And just kept saying like yes, red team is winning.

MOOS: Chelsea Miller described her four-year-old son is shy amid a whirlwind of attention.

MILLER: There were probably at least a hundred people that asked to stop to take pictures with him and high fives, and getting autographs even.

MOOS: Mom says they were hoping as sign will get George on camera but they weren't expecting this.

MILLER: Everyone just made it so special for us.

MOOS: University of Michigan hockey wondered if George, do you need a Michigan jersey for the next game?

George's grandma here, and he definitely needs a jersey.

George reminded one poster of Mikey. Remember Mikey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He likes it. Hey, Mikey.

MOOS: Now, everyone likes George. Even Vancouver fans.

Jeanne Moos, CNN -- New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

REID: Residents in East Palestine, Ohio are fearing for their health and safety after the train carrying hazardous materials crashed, leaking toxic chemicals into the air and water.

Weeks later, federal help is finally on the way. And we'll bring you the latest, next.

[11:56:16]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)