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Biden Meets With Leaders Of NATO's Eastern Flank; China Denies Accusations It Might Give Weapons To Russia; Palestinian Officials: 10 Killed, 100 Plus Injured In Major Israeli Operation; EPA Orders Norfolk Southern To Pay For Cleanup From Toxic Train Wreck. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired February 22, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:10]

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. I'm Kristin Fisher.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Just moments ago, President Biden speaking in Warsaw, Poland, as he and the NATO Secretary General met with the leaders of NATO countries closest to Russia's borders. Right now, the U.S. and its allies are facing the daunting challenge of how to keep the momentum on Ukraine side one year after Russia's invasion.

FISHER: And this morning, Vladimir Putin meeting with a top Chinese diplomat in the Kremlin, as China denies reports that it may be sending weapons to Russia.

So Putin says Moscow and Beijing are, quote, reaching new milestones and there may be a meeting in the works between the Russian and the Chinese presidents pretty soon.

So let's begin with President Biden meeting with members of what's known as the Bucharest 9. CNN's chief White House correspondent, Phil Mattingly, live in Warsaw. Phil, we just listened to the president's fairly brief remarks. What was your big takeaway from his comments?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, I think what's most interesting about what the president's doing today, its final event before he heads back to the United States is what's going to be happening behind closed doors? This is expected to be a lengthy meeting between the President and the nine members of the Bucharest 9, as well as the NATO Secretary General.

And for context here, I think everybody obviously paid attention to kind of this stunning secretive surprise visit to Kyiv. Everybody was watching the speech yesterday in Warsaw, and these are all connected, but this meeting is critical. As the president laid out, this is the front line of NATO. This is the kind of tip of the spear, if you will, of the defensive alliance.

And these are the countries that I think when you talk to U.S. officials, they acknowledge have the most to lose, and certainly are the most uneasy about what they've watched over the course of the last year. It was an alliance essentially that was put together in the wake of Russia's attempted annexation of Crimea.

And while they are not monolithic, and what they request, what they asked for, what their positions are, even as it pertains to Russia, they have made clear that they want more assistance, they want more action from the United States.

And most importantly, I think this is why the president's meeting today is so critical. They want to very clear commitment. The president has made that commitment over and over again, verbally. We heard it yesterday in Warsaw, talking about Article Five and the sacred oath that represents when it comes to NATO and NATO members, but reiterating that in person, underscoring the commitment of the United States, and also listening to what these individual leaders and what their countries need, want, and would like to see in the months ahead is critical.

And it also gets to something that we've seen throughout the better part of the last 11 or 12 months, which you heard the president talking about, and that is the idea of keeping a western coalition together. There's a lot of trepidation about the ability to keep very divergent interests, certainly they may have a broad ideological similarity, but not necessarily the same domestic equities, political equities, regional equities, keeping that all together.

And this group of leaders, this Bucharest 9 Eastern Flank of NATO leaders is certainly a critical component of that -- perhaps the most critical when it comes to the risks that they face on a day-to-day basis.

SCIUTTO: Already, you could argue defining expectations a unity since Russia invaded nearly a year ago. Phil Mattingly in Poland. Thanks so much.

Let's go now to the Pentagon. CNN Pentagon correspondent, Oren Liebermann.

Oren, you have some new reporting this morning about what Russia was trying to do, as the Russian president was announcing the official suspension of its compliance with the START Treaty. Tell us what you're learning.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Jim and Kristin, two U.S. officials tell CNN that Russia carried out a test or at least attempted to carry out a test of its Sarmat, intercontinental ballistic missile, a heavy ICBM capable of carrying a warhead up to 100 tons and capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

But one of those officials says it's likely to test the Sarmat missile, which is known as the Satan II missile, according to its NATO nickname, likely failed. And why is that? Because it was carried out in the days before the State of the Nation speech by Russian President Vladimir Putin that we saw just yesterday.

And had the test succeeded, it's likely the officials say that Putin would have boasted about it in some way during his hour and 45 minutes speech. Instead, there was no mention of any sort of missile test. And it's worth noting that this is a missile that Putin has boasted about in the past.

In the last successful tests back in April, he said this missile would give thought to those who choose to threaten Russia. So, again, the officials say it's likely that had this test been successful, Putin would have brought it up in his State of the Nation speech. When CNN asked the Kremlin about it, Spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined to comment, saying, it's simply a matter for the Ministry of Defense.

[09:05:14]

Now, it is worth noting that the U.S. did get notification from Russia under New START Treaty obligations ahead of the launch. So the U.S. was aware and the U.S. official says it wasn't deemed a threat. But, of course, the timing here, very interesting, not only, of course, the head of the State of the Nation speech, where Putin was looking for a victory, one he couldn't get on the ground in Ukraine. So perhaps he was looking to a successful ICBM test to claim some sort of victory in the speech. And then of course, there's the trip of President Joe Biden as he was on his way to Ukraine. A trip that was carried out regardless of this missile test. Jim and Kristin.

FISHER: Great reporting, Oren Liebermann. Thank you so much.

So I want to bring in retired U.S. Navy Commander Kirk Lippold, former commanding officer of the USS Cole. Good morning, Commander.

KIRK LIPPOLD, RETIRE U.S. NAVY COMMANDER: Good morning, Kristin.

FISHER: I'd like to start where Oren left off and really get your take on this failed ICBM test. The U.S. saying that they did not view it as an anomaly or as an escalation, but I'm curious how you view it.

LIPPOLD: I think both the U.S. and Russia routinely carry out tests of their ICBMs in order to make sure that that leg of their triads, in fact, is operational and can respond to any type of threat or an emergency where they may need to use it.

The fact that the Russia tried it, especially on the eve of Putin's speech is significant, because it does show that their system did not work as designed. And that in fact, it is a failure, be up by his not being able to brag about it, so to speak, during that speech.

FISHER: Yes. But then it shows that they were at least willing to try to test it, right, before President Biden was there.

SCIUTTO: Let's talk about the treaties themselves here because --

LIPPOLD: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: -- the Russian president officially suspended Russian cooperation compliance with the START Treaty, U.S.'s position has been they haven't been cooperating already, but you have that happening. You had the end of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty a couple of years ago that there are no treaties with China in terms of their nuclear weapons totals, as they rapidly increase those.

Are we entering an era here, in effect, the end of such treaties and possibly a new nuclear arms race?

LIPPOLD: Jim, I don't think we really are. When you look at it, you are seeing a destabilization in the eyes of many people that view the nuclear weapons world. With Russia pulling out of these, they're using it more as a signal. I think back channel, you're still seeing some of the communications going on.

Clearly, Russia notified us of the attempted test of the Satan II missile, even though it was unsuccessful. We are beginning to see, however, that China is beginning to engage with the number of ICBMs that they are building, the build out of a submarine ballistic missile launch capability. They're going to continue to build, and at some point, we're going to have to re-enter into those negotiations.

I think people realize when it comes to nuclear weapons, it is a weapon that you do not use to bluff. It is a weapon of last resort. And that you have it more as a stabilizer and as a deterrent, not as an actual use weapon. But every nation that has them is prepared to use them, whether it is the U.S., the United Kingdom, France, or even Russia today.

FISHER: While President Biden meets with the Bucharest 9, you could see just moments ago, President Putin meeting with some top Chinese officials. What do you think it would mean to this conflict in Ukraine if China does indeed start to supply weapons to Russia?

LIPPOLD: I think what that would do is, in reality, it would -- it would destabilize markets worldwide, because now what you'll see is China bolstering a nation who is engaged in an unlawful action and unlawful war into Ukraine. And it also sets the tone for what might happen with Taiwan.

And while there's a whole host of issues associated with that, the fact that China would enter into this type of agreement where they would provide arms or intelligence, you know, the last thing we want to do is have that kind of access begin to form again where you see Russia, China. And even on the outskirts now, you're seeing Iran with their drone program that they're giving to Russia. That is serving as the destabilizing force.

I think China will get involved to a point, but they are President Xi is not going to do anything that interferes with his economy continuing to come out and grow as a result of the COVID over the last few years. So that's going to be his red line is, I'll play but not if it affects the economy.

SCIUTTO: We'll see. Certainly concerns in Ukraine that this would lengthen the war as we approach the one year anniversary.

Commander Kirk Lippold, thanks so much.

[09:10:01]

FISHER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So let's go to Ukraine now. Then Maria Mezentseva, she's a member of Ukraine's Parliament. Good to have you on this morning. We hope you're safe there

MARIA MEZENTSEVA, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Good afternoon from Kyiv. And good morning to you in the studio.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you about the topic we were just discussing there, and that is U.S. officials warning that China is now considering arming Russia in its war against Ukraine. There'd been a lot of hope in Ukraine that this could be the time that Ukraine breaks through those Russian lines in the East.

If China enters, what would that do to this war? Would you concern -- be concerned that it might take away Ukraine's advantage here, make it more likely Russia wins?

MEZENTSEVA: Definitely. This is a very hot topic on the news. And after the Munich Security Conference, which recently happened in Germany, we understand that the promotion of the peace plan of Presidents Zelenskyy having 10 points on it, including the nuclear threats can -- was addressed to Chinese government and Chinese MFA, who said back then that they have no intention to be directly involved in the war of Russia against Ukraine.

And I totally agree that the markets will react immediately. Markets in Europe, in the U.S., no one would -- no one would expect that would be, you know, and nothing coming out of that.

Moreover, we're approaching the so-called anniversary of the full- scale invasion of the aggression of Russia against the world as [technical difficulty] the fact that 1.7 billion people in 94 countries. So this is a choice of China, of course, but I doubt it. In my humble opinion, studying Chinese politics and speaking Chinese, I read some news, I doubt that they will go full scale openly supporting Russia efforts in terms of military sense.

And let's be blunt here, we are -- we are receiving a lot -- a lot of heavy weaponry support come in very soon to Ukrainian territories to occupy those territories which are temporary under Russian occupation.

FISHER: Maria, there have been so many moments over the last few days. President Biden walking the streets of Kyiv. His speech last night, President Putin's speech. I'm curious, out of all those moments, which one do you think left the biggest mark as we approach this one year anniversary of the war?

MEZENTSEVA: You know, I didn't have a chance, unfortunately, to watch President Biden's live address. I was in the city of Kharkiv, my home region, which today was again under the shelling of the rocket -- Russian rockets.

When I saw a repeated video when President Biden, President Zelenskyy, the leaders of the free world commemorated the Holy Heaven, so-called Holy Heaven who gave their lives back in 2014 for freedom, for our common values, for our European choice of developments, for better future for every Ukrainian. They were from different regions, different ages, men and women, business people, doctors, teachers, et cetera. For me, it was so highly appreciated, because I had friends who have given back then their lives who are given their lives today for the freedom we are fighting for.

And I think that was the most powerful, most powerful moment of this almost 12 months of a direct aggression. I can tell you not -- Ukrainians were not expecting President Biden to arrive to Ukraine. It was very powerful, very symbolic on the day of celebration of present -- their presence in the U.S.

I didn't even spend my time listening to what Putin has said, addressing the [inaudible]. I think it was very bad -- badly received in the world when he said that it's the West who launched this attack, which is absolutely not true.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's fantastical, right? I mean, Russia invaded the country a year ago. We all saw the tanks come across the border.

Maria Mezentseva, good to have you on. Please stay safe.

MEZENTSEVA: Thank you.

FISHER: Thank you.

MEZENTSEVA: Thanks so much.

FISHER: So up next former president -- up next, former President Trump headed to East Palestine, Ohio today as criticism mounts over the response to that toxic train derailment. Hear what the EPA chief is telling CNN about the cleanup.

SCIUTTO: Plus, problems on the road and in the air with seven states under a blizzard warning this morning. Already more than a thousand flights canceled. Crashes like that on the road. Places like Minneapolis preparing for more than 20 inches of snow today. We're going to take you live in Minneapolis.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:53]

FISHER: Just in, the Palestinian Ministry of Health says that at least 10 Palestinians have been killed and more than 100 others injured in a rare daytime operation by Israeli military forces. And among the dead, two Islamic Jihad commanders.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Hadas Gold is in Jerusalem right now. And, Hadas, I wonder what we know about the target of this operation, whether there were any civilian casualties. We did have that recent operation a few weeks ago where a grandmother was killed as part of the action. What do we know at this point?

HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So what we know so far is this was a very rare mid-day raid. The Israeli military, when they carry out these operations, they're often overnight or in the dawn hours. Something happening in the middle of the day is very unusual. And the Israeli military, just in the last hour or so, released a statement saying that they did so because they were under into -- they had intelligence that these people were planning to carry out an imminent attack.

We are also just now hearing from the Israeli military that one of those militants that they say they killed was somebody who they say was responsible for the killing of an Israeli soldier a few months ago.

So, so far what we know is from the Palestinian Ministry of Health is at least 10 Palestinians were killed and more than 100 injured. Most of them by live ammunition. The Palestinian Ministry of Health saying, this is a huge number for this type of operation, a huge number for the West Bank, a place that even though it's been -- it's seen a lot of violence, a lot of death and injury in the past year or so, these numbers are quite massive. I have to say.

[09:20:18]

Now, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, as well as the Lions' Den militant group are saying that some of their fighters, including some of their commanders, were killed and were part of the action, but we're still working through who were militants killed, who were potentially civilians caught in the crossfire.

Israeli military saying it was both in response to what they say was intelligence about an imminent attack, but also an opportunity, in their minds they say, to go after these militants. Nablus being one of the hotspots in the West Bank in the occupied West Bank, alongside Jenin, really a hotspot of the militant activity that we've seen in the past year.

But the numbers today bringing the number of Palestinians killed. So far this year, keep in mind, we're still in February, to something like 61. We also have had 11 Israelis killed so far this year. It's only February. But now because of the action in the West Bank, because of the target being Islamic Jihad, which keep in mind, they have quite a foothold in Gaza alongside Hamas, a lot of eyes are now going south towards Gaza.

Because when things have happened like this in the past, then often we get a response from Gaza, that may look like rockets fired from Gaza overnight, along with an Israeli military response. We had that sort of short three-day escalation last August between Islamic Jihad and the Israeli military. Keep an eye on the night sky tonight in Gaza, because we may see more of that tonight. Guys.

FISHER: Yes. More than 100 injured in the middle of the day. That's staggering.

SCIUTTO: Remarkable. Yes.

FISHER: Yes. Hadas Gold, thank you so much. SCIUTTO: Well, back home this morning, the EPA is ordering Norfolk Southern rail to cover all cleanup costs for the train derailment that spilled those toxic chemicals in East Palestine, Ohio. Here's what the chief of the EPA told CNN this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL REGAN, EPA ADMINISTRATOR: They have to design a very specific work plan that's approved by EPA. So we're going to make sure that every single step is included. No stone is left unturned. Because the fact of the matter is, they caused this trauma to the community, and we're going to make sure that they pay for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: Contaminated soil at the site of the derailment is the next hurdle in the cleanup. Norfolk Southern is already operating on the tracks again, but Ohio's governor says, that will need to stop so the tracks can be removed and the contaminated soil underneath can be taken out.

CNN's Miguel Marquez joins us live from East Palestine, Ohio. Miguel, give us an update on when we can expect this preliminary report on the wreck from the NTSB. Is it -- is it coming anytime soon?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We expect it fairly soon. And I think a lot of people are watching for that because that, especially for the governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania may inform them as to whether or not any criminal charges will be brought in this disaster. There is absolute deep distrust and people want to see something happen to Norfolk Southern and to prevent this sort of disaster from happening.

Again, I want to show you sort of the -- here's the human cost of it. This is a creek that runs right through the town of East Palestine. It's starting to rain, so the level of the creek has gone up a bit. They've just replaced that. You can see those white barriers in there. That's an absorbent barrier that they mix up the water, they pump air into the water to try to keep it mixed up so that any chemicals, any toxins in there can be absorbed by that barrier. They've just pulled out a couple of those barriers. This one right here in that plastic bag, and you can see that discoloration in it. And that's the sort of stuff that they're trying to capture.

Two streams in the middle of town that they are treating right now, but this is a very widespread area. The concern that people have is not only was there the crash or the derailment and all of those cars sort of went off the tracks and some of them spilled, but then there was that controlled, quote-unquote, controlled burn of a toxic chemical that sent a massive plume up, not only over the town, but over the farmland around it, all the way into Pennsylvania.

And then they found out that there were even more chemicals on that train than they realized, to begin with. So lots of question. The EPA now coming in to try to put their stamp on it and assure people that someone is in charge, someone is taking responsibility and that this mess will be cleaned up over the -- they're saying now years to come, in all entities, the states of Ohio and Pennsylvania, the federal government and Norfolk Southern now stepping up to say they are fully committed to the cleanup. Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Miguel Marquez, good to have you there.

Just ahead, the forewoman in the Georgia grand jury that investigated former president Trump's and his allies' efforts to overturn the 2020 election making public comments about some of the recommendations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMILY KOHRS FOREPERSON, GEORGIA SPECIAL GRAND JURY: I'm not the judge, I'm not the lawyers, but I will be frustrated if nothing happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:25:05]

SCIUTTO: Coming up, you'll hear what she had to say about criminal charges that they recommended

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FISHER: Heavy snow, ice, extreme cold, it's all part of this massive weather system stretching across 29 states. Look at that.

SCIUTTO: Airlines have already canceled more than 1,000 flights. Take a look at this video from South Dakota, near whiteout conditions, wow, as the storm blows through. In Minneapolis, as much as 20 inches of snow could fall today. That would be the most there in 30 years.

[09:30:01]

CNN's Adrienne Broaddus, she's in Bloomington, Minnesota. How's it look there? Looks chilly.

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's beautiful. It is cold. But, hey, at least the sun is shining. And that ice that you're talking about could be a bigger problem compared to the snow. But let's focus on what's happening here in my favorite state of Minnesota. They are expected to receive significant snowfall, as you mentioned, perhaps the greatest snowfall in the last 30 years, at least, up to two feet.

Right now, don't be deceived by what's happening. There's a lull in this storm. We've already gone through around one and then there's more snow on the way. And forecasters say, the roads will worsen as well as the weather conditions.

But here, the Department of Transportation is prepared to handle it. There are more than 800 snow plow trucks throughout the state and 1,600 drivers. Since 7:30 this morning, local time, there have been about 100 crashes. So if you have to go out, please, take it slow and play safe. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. FISHER: Adrienne Broaddus, thank you so much.

So the foreperson of the Atlanta-based grand jury that investigated former president Donald Trump's attempts to overturn the election, is speaking out on the panel's recommendations. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOHRS: It's not a short list. I will say that when this list comes out, you wouldn't -- there are no major plot twist waiting for you, especially if they've been following the investigation. I can't see it being a shocker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: I mean, that was an interview that was hard to stop watching. Portions of the grand jury's final report made it clear that they believed perjury charges were warranted for some witnesses in the case now in the hands of the Fulton County DA, Fani Willis.

SCIUTTO: CNN senior legal affairs correspondent, Paula Reid, here with more.

Now, listen, a lot of people were understandably looked surprised that the forewoman was speaking about this publicly. Georgia law does allow her to do this. So I wonder what the law says here about public comments like that.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, you're absolutely right. She is allowed to do this. So the judge asked her not to discuss specific deliberations and she has declined to comment on the specific charging recommendations.

But doing something, this could potentially impact the case, right? The Trump defense attorneys, one of the arguments that they have made about Fulton County, is that they argue this is politicized. They say the district attorney is elected, she's trying to appease constituents, which is why she is largely expected to mostly indict the former president. Now, they're also going to be able to point to the jury forewoman and be like, hey, she went on national television and said she would be quote, sad, or frustrated if nothing happens here.

Now, one piece of news that I did glean from this, was she talked a little bit about former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, and this is the first time it's been confirmed that he did go before they even talked. But she said that he invoked executive privilege, invoked his Fifth Amendment right, and it didn't get much out of him.

So take note, Special Counsel Jack Smith, who is also trying to get answers from him. But she also said that she believes that this was not a partisan pursuit. It was her impression that the district attorney was really trying to be fair, but when you go out and do something like this in the court of public opinion, it doesn't exactly instill trust in the process.

FISHER: Yes. And fascinating that she decided to do this and speak so publicly about it, even though she could.

Paula Reid, thank you so much.

So up next, Alex Murdaugh's double murder trial resumes after his lone surviving son, Buster Murdock, testified in his father's defense.

Plus, why the jury may be taking a field trip to the scene of the murders?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:35:04]

FISHER: Right now, testimony is about to resume in the double murder trial of Alex Murdaugh after his surviving son took the stand in his defense. You're looking at live pictures from inside the courtroom as the defense prepares to resume its case.

And then yesterday, of course, Murdaugh's son, his surviving son, Buster, testified that his dad was a loving father and husband who couldn't possibly have killed his wife and other son. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSTER MURDAUGH, ALEX MURDAUGH'S SON: His demeanor was -- I mean, he was destroyed. Just heartbroken. I walked in the door and saw him and gave him a hug and just broken down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you speak?

MURDAUGH: Not really.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He cried?

MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: Joining us now is CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson.

Joey, we just heard Buster Murdock saying that his father was devastated, heartbroken. How effective of a witness do you think he was for the defense?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, Kristin, good morning to you. I think very effective. Obviously having said that, that's his son. So what would you expect him to say? So it's important to contextualize this, Kristin, for the following reasons. The prosecution is the one with the burden of proof. The defense does not have to put on a case at all. Right?

However, having said that, they are about, the defense, reasonable doubt. What might provide that doubt? Motivation is very significant. Why? Motivation, you don't have to prove if you're the prosecutor. It's not an element of the offense charge, but inquiring minds want to know why. Why would you do this?

And so what the defense is doing here by putting on Buster, one of the significant things they're doing is to counter that motive. This was a father who loved his wife, who loved his son, who loved his family. As a result of that, what would be the motivation by which he would undertake such a heinous act? That's one thing.

What else? There was something very significant, Kristin, and that was the alleged confession. Prosecutors were saying that Alex Murdaugh said, I did him so dirty. The son, Buster, came on to say, no, my dad didn't say that. He said, they did him so dirty. Not only did he say it then, but he repeated it to me.

[09:40:14]

Again, in addition to that final thing is that you want Buster coop [ph] to add some context to his father. There was a notion that his father showered, right, after the murders because he showering to get rid of anything that was on his body. His son noted that, my father showers very regularly.

And finally, with respect to visiting his mom, the prosecution have suggested that that was done as an alibi. No, said Buster, my dad visited his mom quite often and it wasn't any on any set schedule. And so I think, to that extent, Buster really laid it out and provided the element of reasonable doubt, which was what a defense attorney always looks for.

FISHER: Joey, one other big moment in court yesterday that I want to get your take on, Alex's -- Alex Murdaugh's defense attorney getting up, pointing a gun at the prosecution and kind of laughing and saying, tempting. It was a wild moment inside the courtroom. Let's watch it and then I want to get your take on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK HARPOOTLIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So I'm not five-foot-two or five- foot-four. I think you should try five-foot-two or five-foot-four, but position me. Tempting. But...

[LAUGHTER]

I don't know how I can do this, so I'm not pointing at somebody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: So you can hear people in the courtroom kind of laughing. But, you know, Joey, I'm from Texas, I was taught that you don't ever point a gun at anybody ever. What did you make of that moment? Call me old- fashioned, but I couldn't believe it.

JACKSON: So, Kristin, two things, right? The optimist of me really believes and thinks that in sometimes in very stressful events in a courtroom. And there are many there are moments of levity. And so perhaps it's humorous and those moments of levity really creep in. On the other end of it, certainly you never want to point a gun at anyone. And certainly during a trial in which tensions flare in which people are in opposition, there certainly are moments where you may not like the other side. However, I will not prescribe to that view.

Final thing, Kristin, and that's this, the -- not to -- you know, it's important to make note of what that witness was speaking to. And that witness was the expert for the -- for the defense, and they were asserting that the trajectory of the weapon would be suggestive of Alex Murdaugh having not shot that that gun. Why? Because the trajectory would suggest that he would have had to have it down by his kneecaps. And since he's six-four, it would not have been him, says that the defense who fired that weapon.

So not to get lost in the mix of all that have occurred in terms of, you know, whether you want to call it bad humor, whether you want to call it levity. That was the essence of that expert witness's testimony, which the defense believes is very helpful to the notion of reasonable doubt.

FISHER: All very good point, Joey. Since you and I have been speaking, they have been talking in the courtroom about the possibility of Alex Murdaugh testifying. What do you think is the likelihood of that happening?

JACKSON: So it's important to note a couple of things. The first thing is, is that whenever your client testifies, it doesn't become about what you did as a defense attorney, in terms of establishing reasonable doubt in the prosecution's case, it becomes about whether your client is lying or not. It becomes the believability and credibility game.

And, boy, would he have a lot to answer to, that is Mr. Murdaugh, in the event that he took the stand, with respect to his inconsistencies in talking to the police about where he was, with respect to the cell phone data that contradicts where he was, with regard to the car data. So he would have a lot to say.

Second point, Kristin, and that's this. I'd argue that he did testify. There have been a lot of tapes played with respect to interviews done of him. So in that regard, he has gotten before that jury, but it's always a risky proposition. It's not to suggest the defense won't take that step. But, boy, I would think two, three, four, and five times before I left it in Alex Murdaugh's hands, if he's cross examined and crumbles, there goes your case, there goes the verdict, and that would be guilty. So I think they will think twice and pause before they take such a step.

FISHER: Yes. Well, we should know pretty soon whether or not they do indeed decide to take that step or not. Joey Jackson, thanks so much.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, I'll speak live with Canadian Foreign Minister Melanie Joly. She just returned from a trip to Ukraine. This is President Biden and the NATO allies are trying to give Ukrainian President Zelenskyy what he needs to win the war against Russia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:45:46]

SCIUTTO: Election update. Virginia State Senator, Jennifer McClellan, has won the special election for Virginia's Fourth Congressional District. She will become the first black woman to represent the Commonwealth in Congress.

CNN has projected that win Tuesday. See the margin there. McClellan will defeat Republican Leon Benjamin, a pastor and navy veteran to succeed the late Democratic Representative Donald McEachin. He died of cancer in November. Her election to the U.S. House of Representatives, a milestone for Virginia. A state that was once home to the Capitol, that Confederate history and a former slave trading center.

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JENNIFER MCCLELLAN VIRGINIA STATE SENATOR: There are moments when I realized that I'm fighting the same fights as my parents, my grandparents, and my great grandparents. But you know what keeps me going? I fight those fights, so that they don't have to, so that my children and your children don't have to.

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FISHER: McClellan's victory will add to what is already a record number of women of color in Congress and also set a new record for the number of black women, according to data from the Center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University. So certainly a big day for the state of Virginia. McClellan -- Jennifer McClellan making history in that special election seat.

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SCIUTTO: And we are seeing moments like that more and more, and each one of them deserves a marking in time. Jennifer McClellan there, the new representative from Virginia.

Well, President Biden is now wrapping up his trip to Warsaw, Poland. He's been meeting there with leaders of NATO allies that are, in effect, on the front line of the growing conflict with Russia, the eastern flank of the Alliance there. He made the surprise trip, of course, to Ukraine on Monday, just days ahead of the one year mark of Russia's invasion.

That war continues with many thousands of dead on that eastern front in recent weeks. The death toll rising for Russian forces, also for Ukrainian forces, as they intensify.

Of course, the question now, as always, is how quickly new western weapons will get to the Ukrainian side?

Joining me now to discuss is Canadian Foreign Minister Melanie Joly. She just returned from a trip to Ukraine. Foreign Minister, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

MELANIE JOLY, CANADINA FOREIGN MINISTER: It's a pleasure, Jim.

SCIUTTO: I wonder -- we were showing pictures just a few moments ago of your visit there, among other things, meeting with the mayor of Kyiv. There's a lot of talk now of a Russian offensive in the East, though U.S. officials are skeptical they have the weapons and manpower to do it, but also of a Ukrainian counter offensive.

And I wonder after your visit there, are you confident that Ukraine has the forces necessary to push back and take back some of this Russian held territory?

JOLY: Well, first and foremost, let's be clear, Russians have already started their counter offensive and, right, the Ukrainians have been clear in their assessment about this. That's the first point.

Second point, Ukrainians' morale is very strong, which is extremely important as they're bearing the impacts of this war on their country. And at the same time, of course, more and more. The heavy weaponry that we the West have been sending, is getting to Ukraine.

So, of course, we have to increase the speed, Jim. We need to make sure that we continue to arm Ukraine. And that's why on our part in Canada, our Leopard tanks are already in Poland. And we're already training Ukrainian officials -- officers on this.

SCIUTTO: You've noted that Canada was the first to get those Leopard --

JOLY: Indeed.

SCIUTTO: -- tanks to Ukraine. I do want to talk about a development that U.S. officials have been warning about, and that is that China will take a step that has not taken so far since the start of this war, and that is to provide lethal assistance to Russia in its war against Ukraine.

If China were to take that step, what do you believe? What do you -- what does Canada believe NATO's response should be?

JOLY: Well, Jim, I'm not here to do any form of hypothetical scenarios. We take note of what Tony Blinken mentioned over the weekend regarding China's position. We call on China to be clear when it comes to respecting the territorial integrity and the sovereignty of Ukraine. That is why I'm at the U.N. today and tomorrow to talk about this very issue. There will be a very important general assembly and a vote regarding this issue.

And we need to make sure that as many countries support the stance that we've been taking, regarding the fact that we need to make sure that we send a strong message to the world when it comes to the very principles of integrity and -- territorial integrity and sovereignty, first, because it is actually something that we all member states have in common. But also, we need to make sure that we send a strong message to different countries, including China on this very issue.

SCIUTTO: Speaking of territorial integrity, of course, Canada and the U.S. have been on the frontlines of another violation of territorial sovereignty in recent weeks, and that is the sending of a surveillance balloon over U.S. and Canadian territory.

First question about the most recent objects detected. President Biden has said that those three most recent ones were later determined not to be a threat. Have the U.S. and Canada prove their ability to distinguish between, right, the ones that are actual Chinese spy surveillance balloons and ones that are not? Are you better prepared than to respond to them?

JOLY: Well, I think it is important that we be prepared. But first and foremost, for us, the security of Canadians is extremely important, and obviously protecting our own sovereignty and our own territorial integrity.

And in that sense, that is why the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau, decided to shoot down, at first, balloon over Canada and that's also why I summoned the Chinese ambassador in Ottawa to make sure to send a clear message.

When it comes to different types of objects within our airspace, I think we're also, you know, analyzing what is going on right now and the different objects that were shoot down -- but at the shutdown.

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But at the same time, I think that as technologies are evolving, we need to take stock of that, that -- these changes, and we need to make sure that we address them. And so that's why we were doing that through NORAD and looking forward to working with our American colleagues on this issue.

SCIUTTO: I wonder if you believe now that the message to China is clear that there's a story today in the Canadian newspapers that the Canadian military found Chinese monitoring buoys in the Arctic, believed to be kind of an early warning system for the operations of Canadian and U.S. submarines in the Arctic. China has many of these surveillance balloons in its arsenal as it were. What happens if China sends another one over U.S. and Canadian territory?

JOLY: Well, we'll work with through NORAD. We'll make sure that we also take a strong stance as we just did two weeks ago.

Our approach when it comes to China is clear. What we did last November is I launched our Indo-Pacific strategy. And in there, we said that when it comes to China, we think it is a more and more global disruptive power. We think that also when it comes to China, we will challenge China what -- when we ought to, and we will cooperate with China when we need to.

So obviously, when it comes to issues over our Arctic, within our maritime borders, or any form of foreign interference, we will be clear, and that's how we will address this issue in the future as well.

SCIUTTO: Does clear mean another surveillance balloon comes and you shoot it down?

JOLY: We will take -- we will take decisions based on facts, Jim. But we will always make sure that we protect the security of our people. That's obvious. But also that we take strong stances, including in the Arctic regarding our own sovereignty.

SCIUTTO: Foreign -- Minister of Foreign Affairs, Melanie Joly, thanks so much for joining the broadcast this morning.

JOLY: It's a pleasure. Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: We'll be right back live in Warsaw, Poland, coming up.

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