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Florida Shooting Spree; Alex Murdaugh Could Testify Today; Economy Grew by 2.7 Percent; Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner Subpoenaed. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired February 23, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:13]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Just shock and grief in Orlando this morning where police say a man suspected of fatally shooting a woman then returned to the scene and shot and killed a TV reporter covering that initial shooting and then killed a nine-year-old girl.

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SHERIFF JOHN MINA, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Detectives had already done their canvas of the neighborhood and had cleared the scene and were out actually following leads on this suspect, Moses, because they quickly developed him as a suspect in this case.

The suspect is not saying much right now. It is unclear if he knew they were news media or not. We're still trying to work all that out. You know, that vehicle was almost exactly in the same spot --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN ANCHOR: The suspect, 19-year-old Keith Melvin Moses, being held on a murder charge in that first shooting and is expected to be charged with the other two killings.

CNN's Leyla Santiago is live in Orlando.

Leyla, what a terrible, terrible story. I mean a reporter covering the first shooting, a nine-year-old little girl. What more can you tell us about the victims?

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Spectrum News 13, the company who this news team worked for, has identified the reporter and the photographer. The report, a 24-year-old. So a very young reporter. Twenty-four-year-old Dylan Lyons. He was described as motivated and talented professional who was living his dream in Orlando. He has died. Still listed in critical condition at last check is the photographer, that is Jesse Walden. And, of course, even here at the hospital you can feel the sort of - the angst, quite frankly, among journalists here that are obviously rooting for Jesse and hoping for the best here. Now, let's back up a minute because the quotes, the information that

you just played before you came to me from the sheriff really speaks to what is the big question right now, which, what was the motive? What led up to this? And while much of that remains unclear in the less than 24 hours since the shooting in which we are right now, we do have more info in terms of the sequence of events. So, let's go over that quickly.

At 11:00 a.m. yesterday deputies get a call that there was a shooting of a woman in a car. They go out there. They investigate. Then, five hours later, 4:00 p.m., another call comes in. And as you mentioned, those journalists that were there covering the initial shooting were also shot. Then a mother and a nine-year-old child in a nearby home also shot. The nine-year-old died. The mother, we're told, survived, also in critical condition.

Here's what else the sheriff said.

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SHERIFF JOHN MINA, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF'S OFFICE: No one in our community, not a mother, not a nine-year-old, certainly not news professionals should become victims of gun violence in our community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: And so right now in custody 19-year-old Keith Melvin Moses. He has a first appearance court -- court appearance at 1:00. So, in just a few hours we may learn even more details than what has publicly been released.

But, you know, one of the things the sheriff mentioned is that he is someone who has a lengthy criminal history that includes gun charges. But, again, the big question, the why. What is behind the motive? What led up to a nine-year-old and a journalist and a woman all in a nearby vicinity not being with us today.

Jim. Kristin.

SCIUTTO: Two more young people lose their lives to gun violence.

Leyla Santiago, thanks so much.

Well, right now, we are waiting to see if Alex Murdaugh, who is on trial for the murders of his wife and son, will take the stand in his own defense. A source tells CNN that will happen today. The trial expected to resume any minute now. As soon as Murdaugh begins his testimony, we will take you that live.

FISHER: But first let's talk with attorney Areva Martin.

Areva, this is the moment that, you know, people have been waiting for in this trial, wondering if Alex Murdaugh will take the stand. And ultimately this is his decision, right? And, you know, he could easily change his mind up until the moment that his hand is on the Bible.

So, just walk us through the pros and cons for Alex Murdaugh and the defense as he debates whether or not to do this.

AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: You're right, Kristin. It is absolutely the decision of Alex Murdaugh to decide. And you -- as you said, he can change his mind at any moment up until the time in which he is sworn in.

[09:35:04]

This is very risky. It's always risky for a defendant to take the stand because not only is he going to be questioned by his own attorney, he's going to be grilled. And in this case I would suspect a very tough cross-examination by the prosecutors. And we know that in this case Alex has given inconsistent statements. He said he was not at the kennels right before his wife and son were murdered, even though it appears that there's this videotape that shows, you know, that at least his voice can be heard on. So he's got to explain why he has given a statement that is contradicted by this clip that was taken from his son's cell phone.

SCIUTTO: Areva, I have to ask you, the prosecution is depending a lot of its case, it seems, on that Snapchat video and the timing and the location where it placed him in the minutes which it says prior to that murder. In your view, is the prosecution proving its case?

MARTIN: It's a difficult case, Jim. It's all circumstantial evidence. They don't have the murder weapons. They don't have an eyewitness. So their entire case is based on circumstantial evidence. And, obviously, that Snapchat video is a piece of substantial circumstantial evidence.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MARTIN: But so far there's still an argument for the defense to be made that they cannot pinpoint these murders on Alex Murdaugh, which is always a challenge for prosecutors when they don't have murder weapons and they don't have particular eyewitness testimony.

FISHER: And right now I believe the prosecutors are addressing the judge. You're looking at live images from inside the courtroom right now.

Areva, I'm curious, would you -- if you were Alex Murdaugh's attorney, would you be advising him to take the stand today? And if he says, you know, I'm going to do it no matter what your advice is, what would you then be advising him to do or not do?

MARTIN: Yes, that's a tough question, Kristin. Yes, that's a tough question, Kristin. What you do as a defense attorney is you go through all the pros and cons with your client, but ultimately it is his decision. And once he makes that decision, you want to make sure that it's documented that you have gone over with him in great detail what the potential risks are.

And we know in this case a big part of the prosecution's case is that Alex killed his wife and his son to distract from his significant financial issues. All of the money issues he had. The fact that he had stolen money from his law firm. The fact that he was facing this huge wrongful death case related to his son's boat accident where a young girl was killed.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MARTIN: You know that's going to be a big part of the cross examination. The defense attorney tried to get the judge to make a ruling yesterday that the prosecutors couldn't go into that area of questioning in the cross, but the judge denied that motion. So quite possibly jurors get distracted by the fact that there are all of these financial issues and crimes that he's been a charged - that he's been charged with. So, do they lose sight about whether he committed the murder and start focusing on the money issues? That's the risk that he faces if he takes the witness stand.

SCIUTTO: Our Randi Kaye, she's been covering this. She's just outside the courthouse.

Randi, we see Murdaugh's lawyers speaking to the judge now. Do you have a sense of what steps are - what the steps are prior to his testimony if Murdaugh does testify?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right now they are still discussing, Jim, whether or not the -- Murdaugh would be questioned about the financial crimes, the alleged financial crimes. As we know, that is something that the state has introduced at this trial and brought on many witnesses about these alleged financial crimes because they believe that speaks to the motive as to why Alex Murdaugh allegedly killed his wife and son. So, that is being discussed again right now.

Yesterday the defense asked if they could exclude the financial crimes discussion from cross-examination if Alex Murdaugh does take the stand. The judge is discussing that once again now. The defense bringing that up again, saying that their advice to their client would have been different about taking the stand if those financial -- alleged financial crimes were excluded on cross. We're trying to listen in here to see what the judge decides, Jim.

FISHER: Areva, Murdaugh is, of course, an attorney himself, or used to be. What -- how does that play into this? Obviously there's some advantage in that he knows how a trial, how a courtroom works, but are there disadvantages that come with that sort of insider knowledge, too?

MARTIN: Yes, that's a good question, Kristin. Obviously, he knows what cross-examination is. And you would think perhaps because he is an attorney and he's tried many cases himself that he would be a better witness, that he'd be better prepared, that he'd have better responses on cross-examination. But that can backfire. You know, lawyers trying to be their own lawyers or trying to psych out what other lawyers do can be problematic.

[09:40:02]

He may come off as arrogant. He may come off as a know it all. So, there are down sides even when a lawyer takes the stand in his own defense because the ultimate question is believability.

SCIUTTO: Right.

MARTIN: Is he convincing jurors that what he is saying is truthful and something that they can rely on.

FISHER: All right. Well, we wait and see what happens inside that courtroom, to see if, you know, Alex Murdaugh decides to take the stand and put his hand on the Bible and do this thing once and for all. Although, of course, he can change his mind up until the very last minute.

Areva Martin, Randi Kaye, thank you both so much.

And we're going to take, I believe, a quick break.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FISHER: As the attorneys make motions here. And we're going to keep an eye on this court and get back to it live if Alex Murdaugh does indeed take the stand.

We'll be right back.

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[09:45:10]

FISHER: New numbers released just this morning show that the U.S. economy grew slightly less in the fourth quarter of 2022 than previously thought.

SCIUTTO: The Commerce Department says the economy grew 2.7 percent. This instead of the previous estimate of 2.9 percent.

CNN chief business correspondent Christine Romans here to break it all down.

And 2.7 percent, not bad.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I mean we know the real pressure here, right, is that the Fed wants to see a lot slower growth in prices in the economy so they can taper interest rates. I mean you - you're always good at putting this into perspective for us. So what's it all mean?

ROMANS: Well, it's so interesting, Jim, because you look at the end of the year, 2.7 percent is still a healthy reading on the economy. And it showed you that inventories grew, a lot of different kinds of companies and industries were buying stuff and building up their inventories. That added strength to the economy. And the consumer - the consumer was strong. Not quite as strong as the initial read, but still the consumer is strong heading into the end of the year.

You're absolutely right, the Fed has been raising interest rates to try to cool all that down, right, so that that strong economy and a very strong job market doesn't spin off even more inflation. So, I think you look at this number and you say it's a rear view

mirror number, it is still strong at the end of the year, but right now all of the anxiety is about how -- where we're going forward.

We also got a jobless claims figure this morning that was really, really good. Jim and Kristin, 192,000 people filing for the first time for unemployment benefits in the week, that is really, really, a strong, strong job market. You've heard of all these tech layoffs. What I'm seeing in these numbers right here is, this is still a very good economy for workers in terms of having a job. So, again, it shows you the Fed has more work to do.

FISHER: That's nice to hear some good news there, Christine Romans.

The National Labor Board Relations put this - Relations Board, this week, put employers on notice that they can't silence laid off employees in exchange for severance.

ROMANS: Yes.

SCIUTTO: You see a lot of that.

FISHER: Yes, why -- what prompted that change?

ROMANS: So, we've heard a lot of tech workers complaining that they're getting severance, right, they're being fired and then they're getting these -- this severance for a few months, right or several months. And in exchange for that severance, they can't - they have like a confidentiality clause. They, you know, can't talk badly about the company or can't talk about the company or the consequence - or the, you know, circumstances around their layoffs. And that the NLRB is saying it's just not fair. That if you are going to offer somebody severance, you're going to offer somebody severance and you're not going to put a confidentiality clause in there.

And that gives some freedom to tech workers who have been complaining about this, right, that they want to be able to not have restrictions when they - when they leave their old jobs.

So, this is a worker win from the - from the government.

FISHER: Sure. And so many tech workers laid off over the last few weeks.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FISHER: Christine Romans, thank you so much.

ROMANS: Yes. Nice to see you guys.

FISHER: So, up next, the latest move by the special counsel looking into January 6th gets even closer to former President Trump. Now he wants to here from Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner.

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[09:52:03]

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you made a decision as to whether you're going to testify?

ALEX MURDAUGH, DEFENDANT: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And what is your decision?

MURDAUGH: I am going to testify. I want to testify.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Very well. Thank you.

MURDAUGH: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That is Alex Murdaugh just moments ago confirming in court he will testify today in his defense in the double murder trial for his wife Maggie and son Paul. The defense has called one witness who will testify before Murdaugh. He will take the stand and we will bring that to you live as soon as Murdaugh's testimony happens.

FISHER: The special counsel looking into former President Trump's attempt to stay in power after losing the 2020 election has now subpoenaed Trump's daughter, Ivanka, and her husband, Jared Kushner. That's according to "The New York Times." And it's unclear if Trump himself will try to block them from testifying on the grounds of executive privilege since both, of course, worked in his administration at the White House. Kushner and Ivanka were with Trump on January 6th, and, of course, testified before the January 6th House Select Committee.

So, joining me now to discuss all of this is CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, thank you so much for joining us.

And I'd like to start by this news about Jared and Ivanka. Do you think that we will actually end up seeing them testifying? Will they do this? Will they fight it? Or will the former president try to fight it for them?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Kristin, I think they will testify. We won't see it because it will be in a grand jury, which, of course, is behind closed doors, but I think they will be made to testify. First of all, this is a grand jury subpoena. It's not optional. The only real way they could fight this is either for the recipients, for Jared or Ivanka to claim executive privilege, or for Donald Trump to try to come in from the outside and claim executive privilege.

The problem is they've already testified in front of the January 6th committee, meaning they've essentially waved or given up their ability, their right to claim executive privilege. So ,they may try that as a delay tactic, but ultimately I think, even if they had any executive privilege at some point, I think they've given it away at this point.

FISHER: Elie, how significant is this news coming on the heals of the news of the former vice president, Mike Pence, being subpoenaed?

HONIG: So, Kristin, I think what this shows us is that the special council, Jack Smith, is aiming directly at the highest orders of power, the people who were closest to Donald Trump, who had and witnessed the most important conversations. And I would ask, I would note, why has it taken this long? I mean I thought Merrick Garland, eh could have been subpoenaing Mike Pence and Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump and year and a half ago. There's never been any mystery to the fact that they were right there for the key moments, yet it took until two plus years out from January 6th and until the appointment of Jack Smith. So I think we're seeing a notable shift in aggressiveness and focus here with Jack Smith in charge.

FISHER: Elie, something else. The Proud Boys - or attorneys for the Proud Boys, they also want to subpoena the former president, Donald Trump, to testify as a witness for their defense.

[09:55:05]

What do you think is the likelihood that that will happen?

HONIG: Very, very low, Kristin. So here's -- the thoughts from these defendants, and this is not the first time we've seen this is, while the defense is going to be my client thought he was following orders from or had been given permission to do this by Donald Trump, but other defendants have asked to call Donald Trump as a witness and judges have said, no. And here's why. You can make that defense, let's puts aside whether it has any merit or not. If you want to make that defense, the way you make it is, you play the clip of Donald Trump speaking at the Ellipse, you show his tweet saying, be there, it will be wild. But you're not going to need live, in person testimony from Donald Trump. What really matters is what he said back then in December and into January of 2021. So, I doubt the judge is going to allow them to drag Donald Trump into court as a witness.

FISHER: Yes. So you don't think we'll hear Trump testify on behalf of the Proud Boys, but you do think we'll hear from Jared and Ivanka.

HONIG: Yes.

FISHER: Elie Honig, thank you so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Kristin.

SCIUTTO: At the top of this hour, the NTSB releases its preliminary report on the toxic train spill following the derailment in Ohio. We're going to bring you the details of that report coming up.

FISHER: And, again, we're expecting Alex Murdaugh to testify in his own defense very shortly. We'll bring you that live as soon as he takes the stand. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)