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Today, NTSB Expected to Release Preliminary Report on Toxic Wreck; Ukraine Ramps Up Security as Nation Prepares to Mark One Year of War; CNN Gets First Look Inside Battered Ukrainian Town of Vuhledar. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 23, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. I'm Kristin Fisher.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Any moment now, disgraced and disbarred South Carolina Attorney Alex Murdaugh, right there, on trial for murdering his wife and youngest son, is expected to take the stand, testify in his own defense. We will take you to the courtroom when it happens.

FISHER: Plus, at any moment, the NTSB is expected to release a report on what led to that devastating toxic train derailment earlier this month. This morning, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg was in East Palestine, Ohio, inspecting the damage, as residents voice their frustration and demanded answers at a CNN town hall overnight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM STEWART, EAST PALESTINE RESIDENT: I'm 65 years old and diabetic, afib heart disease, everything. Now, did you shorten my life now? I want to retire and enjoy it. How are going to enjoy it? You burned me. We were going to sell our house. Our value went poof.

ALAN SHAW, CEO, NORFOLK SOUTHERN: Jim, thank you for those comments. I hear you. I am terribly sorry that this has happened to this community. What I can do and what I will do is make it right. We are going to get the cleanup right. We are going to reimburse the citizens. We are going to invest in the long-term health of this community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A chance for folks there to confront the CEO of Norfolk Southern.

We do have a team combing through that NTSB report as soon as it is released.

We are joined now by CNN's Jason Carroll live from East Palestine. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, he has arrived there now to survey the scene. Will he meet with residents today?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is the big question, but let's first start with what we already know, which is that he has toured the crash derailment site behind me over here. During his tour earlier this morning, he was shown where are that trench was dug out, where those hazardous materials seeped into that was burned off. He was also shown how the water then has been pumped out. At one point, though, we could hear him asking about the smell at the site, the acrid smell, which is still here.

It remains to be seen if he will be speaking with residents. We do know he will be speaking with reporters here. As you know, Jim and Kristin, he has come under fire for not coming here to East Palestine earlier, so we will see if he does speak with residents later on.

We did hear from the residents last night, though, in no uncertain terms during that CNN town hall, many of them angry, frustrated over the response. They finally got an opportunity to sit face-to-face with the CEO of the rail company and they did not hold back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA CONARD, EAST PALESTINE RESIDENT: The oil --

SHAW: Ma'am --

CONARD: The oil is going to cause us the long-term effects. Everybody is talking about the chemicals. And while I do think it is important, it is the oil that is seeping into our ground that you chose not to dig up.

SHAW: We have dug up 4,600 of cubic yards of soil and collected 1.7 million gallons of water. We will continue with an environmental remediation. And in early March, we will start by tearing up the tracks and digging up the soil underneath the tracks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: And what they are talking about there, Jim and Kristin, digging up the soil behind me there is, what happened is after the derailment, for some reason, the decision was made to bury some of that contaminated soil rather than digging out to bury, laid the tracks on top of it so those trains could get running again. And a lot of folks here are wondering why was that decision made, what wasn't the decision made instead to dig up all of that contaminant soil so it doesn't remain there, test it and then cart it out of here? So, these are just some of the many questions that residents have out here that they still want answers to. Jim, Kristin?

FISHER: Jason, you mentioned that the transportation secretary was asking about the smell. Does it smell funny where you are?

CARROLL: Yes. And, in fact, we were out here earlier this week when we were given sort of like a brief sort of tour of what we would be looking at, and the smell was still here. It comes and goes, sometimes if you are downwind, depending upon how close you are to the site. [10:05:02]

So, that acrid smell that I remember from last week is still here the closer you get to the site. So, you can imagine how it is for residents who live here when the wind starts to kick up, and depending upon where they are in East Palestine, they still smell it, which, of course, increases their worry.

FISHER: Okay. Jason Carroll, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, the EPA has laid out a four-part accountability plan for Norfolk Southern. It requires the company to give the agency a detailed cleanup plan for soil, water and train debris. They will also have to reimburse the EPA cleaning homes and businesses in the wake. Company reps will be compelled to, quote, show up at the EPA's to public meetings to speak with residents as well. And if they don't comply, the agency can charge the company up to three times the amount that the cleanup would cost. The EPA administrator spoke about the plan at CNN's town hall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL REGAN, ADMINISTRATOR, EPA: I don't have any questions for the CEO of Norfolk Southern. I have some orders for the company. And the orders are that the company will comply with our order, which compels them to take full responsibility, full accountability for the trauma they have inflicted in this community and the damage that they have caused.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Are you going to follow that order, sir?

SHAW: Jake, yes. The administrator, Regan, and I are aligned on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: Norfolk Southern has pledged $6.5 million to the people impacted by the train derailment, but CNN's Senior Data Reporter Harry Enten is digging into those numbers and they really just pale in comparison to what the company's shareholders receive, right, Harry?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes. I mean, look, we mentioned the $6.5 million in compensation, but keep in mind that is not for just one person, right? There are over 2,000 housing units in East Palestine. So, we are really talking about a really small amount for each of these families that are in East Palestine and who are affected by this disaster.

And when you are comparing that to how much money the stockholders are getting, look at this, $4.6 billion in stock buybacks and dividends in 2022. Look at the compensation for the employees, it is $2.6 billion. But keep in mind, there are about 19,000 employees at Norfolk Southern. So, we are really talking about only just north of $100,000 for the average employee salary.

And when we talk about the profits, right, that Norfolk Southern pulls in, look at this, $4.8 billion last year. It was $4.45 billion in profits back in 2021. So, to sum this all up for you, the amount of money that they're pledging to East Palestine at this particular point, Norfolk Southern, really just fails and pales in comparison to how much money the stockholders are getting and how much profit the company has taken in, guys.

FISHER: Harry Enten, thank you so much.

And I believe we're just now getting this NTSB report in. CNN's Pete Muntean has been digging through the preliminary report, which has just been released. Pete, I know you've probably just got your hands on it, like we did, but what have you been able to learn so far?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Four pages long, this is the preliminary report from the National Transportation Safety Board on this derailment on February 3rd. And what is so interesting here is that the NTSB is really digs into the temperature of the wheel bearings on board this very long train, about 150 cars or more, they said it was going 47 miles per hour.

But over the course of several miles, the temperature in one of these wheel bearings, which has been the center of this investigation, went up and up and up, ultimately leading to the audible alarm inside of one of the locomotives that the NTSB preliminary report does say that the crew did respond to that alarm and slowed the train to a stop, but the train wheel bearings were above a temperature of about 250 degrees above the ambient temperature, so very, very hot temperatures here.

We know that fire of this train and this leak of vinyl chloride was so critical in this incident and that is what the transportation secretary is looking at today on the ground. The NTSB does say that they could issue some urgent safety recommendations here. Although in this preliminary report, at least what I'm reading right now, and we are not seeing that just yet. The issue here is that the NTSB has no power to regulate. That's on the Department of Transportation.

I want you to listen now to Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, who told me, we essentially don't need an NTSB report to know that large rail companies, like Norfolk Southern and other class- run railroads have really tried to slink out of new, harder regulations to make it easier on them to transport chemicals through communities.

I want you to listen to what the transportation secretary told me on Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE BUTTIGIEG, U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: We don't have to wait a year for a finalized NTSB report to know that there are a lot of things that would be stronger right now if the railroad industry hadn't fought them.

[10:10:01]

I know customers are frustrated, communities are frustrated, I know I am frustrated, time for us to work with Congress and call on the industry to change course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: Let's talk about the timeline here, Kristin and Jim, because February 3rd is when this derailment happened. Today, February 23rd, we're getting the preliminary report. This is just the facts, very straight and to the point.

Now begins the NTSB analysis of really looking at these facts and trying to figure out exactly what went wrong here. But it could be months if not more than a year until we find out the probable cause here. That is what the NTSB will find, and really assess some blame to figure out exactly what the mechanical failure was and who is to blame for that.

There are still big questions here. Were things properly inspected? Was the train being operated properly? We know that the weather was not really a factor. It was clear at nighttime. But the NTSB not leaving any stone unturned as they look at this. Jim, Kristin?

SCIUTTO: Pete Muntean, thanks so much.

We are joined now by the former chairman of the NTSB, Jim Hall. Jim, I know it is early and this is preliminary report. I mean, the big question here is, is this is a railroad company failure here or this is a regulation failure? I mean, I look at this report, it says that the train was traveling below the authorized speed limit at the time of the derailment, 47 miles per hour speed, maximum would be 50 miles an hour. I mean, does this speak to there needs to be a tightening of restrictions for trains like this?

JIM HALL, FORMER NTSB CHAIRMAN: Well, first, viewers need to understand that railroads own the tracks their trains run on. People are familiar with the federal, state and local governments' responsibility for highways and roads, the federal government through FAA is responsible for the airspace.

But going back over 100 years ago, the railroads carved very favorable positions for themselves, and they own their own lines. There are thousands of lines that carry these hazardous materials across the country. And the federal government essentially along with Congress has failed the oversight of these companies and they ensured that regulations are being followed.

You know, I have followed transportation industry for over three decades, and what we see with this horrible derailment is the same situation we saw with the Boeing Max. It appears that the company moves towns, moves headquarters, changes sales stock for their own benefit of the executives and the federal government does not pay attention until something like this happens.

In fact, the head of Norfolk Southern guaranteed the people of East Palestine that they are going to be taken care of, but what about citizens in communities all across the United States, because in every city (INAUDIBLE), there are these trains running with hazardous materials? FISHER: Jim, have you had a chance to actually look at the report that was just released? I know it just came out. But I'm curious what jumps out at you?

HALL: No. Of course, while I was at the NTSB, I oversaw these reports. This is what I call the Jack Webb version. It is the factual report. That is essentially what the board is going to have. What you have to look for is there going to be any urgent recommendations that follow on this, and that is where the board will have found that the investigators as the result of the initial investigation that there are matters that need to be tended to right away.

SCIUTTO: Fascinating point, because I was not aware, for instance, that the railway companies own their own track and have oversight as supposed to some degree.

One thing I can just note for you that Pete Muntean spotted in the report was that the bearings were, at one point, at the peak, 253 degrees Fahrenheit above ambient outside temperature here. Now, that is remarkable. Have you -- in investigating crashes, accidents like this, have you ever seen a condition like that? I mean, that is quite a temperature when you are carrying hazardous materials.

HALL: Well, without giving any details, because we have done a number of reports. But, you know, the responsibility of the railroad company is to keep the train on the tracks. And the thing that does that, of course, primarily is the wheels and the brakes. And I think that we are all familiar with the fact that the industry opposed the electronic brakes that were being proposed for this type of train.

So, these are issues that the board will look into. I have total confidence in their ability to investigate this accident. What I don't have is total confidence in the federal government to regulate and Congress to regulate the railroads.

[10:15:06]

FISHER: Jim, one more question for you. In addition to being a former NTSB chairman, you are a Vietnam veteran. You are aware of Agent Orange. You know about the burn pits in Iraq and Afghanistan. From that perspective, I'm just curious what you think about the residents of East Palestine right now who are getting their hands on this report for the first time, getting a chance to see it, and what they may be thinking. Do you think they are right to be raising all of these concerns?

HALL: I think they are totally right. I look at it this way. As a Vietnam veteran, I saw the government not being candid on Agent Orange. The same thing happened on the burn pits.

The one thing the government should be is transparent with the people who pay their salaries. And in this situation, I think the citizens of East Palestine should stand up and do exactly what they are doing. I am very proud of them. I think there were some decisions made without their input that may affect their community for decades.

FISHER: All right. Well, Jim Hall, thank you so much that perspective right as this preliminary report is released. We appreciate it.

SCIUTTO: No question, fascinating to hear from someone who has investigated so many of accidents like this.

Well, other story we're following, any moment now, Alex Murdaugh will testify in his own defense. We will bring you that testimony once it begins.

FISHER: Plus, how Ukraine is stepping security and preparing to mark one year since Russia's unprovoked invasion.

And what records reveal about the Shreveport, Louisiana police officer charged in that fatal shooting of Alonzo Bagley.

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SCIUTTO: This morning, officials in Ukraine putting extra security measures in place. They fear Russia will amp up attacks to mark the one-year anniversary tomorrow.

Joining us now to speak about the state of the war, retired U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove. He is the former NATO supreme allied commander, also distinguished chair for the Middle East Institute. Good to have you on, sir.

GEN. PHILIP BREEDLOVE (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Good to be back.

SCIUTTO: So, we're a year in tomorrow to the formal invasion of the east. There had been some hope in recent months that perhaps Vladimir Putin would see the writing on the wall here, maybe sue for peace, and a lot of hope but some hope but clearly not given his comments lately and devotion of further resources and forces there. Do you see any end in sight to this war?

BREEDLOVE: Well, not right now. Clearly, Mr. Putin also has his back against the wall. He can't come out of this war with less land than he entered. And while the fight is not existential to Russia, it may be existential to him.

On the other side, President Zelenskyy is enjoying strong, incredibly strong and growing support among his people to take back all of Ukrainian land. So, right now, we are truly at a loggerhead.

FISHER: General, there's so much concern and fear that President Putin is going to use tomorrow -- use this one-year anniversary to launch some sort of new offensive, do something big and symbolic in Ukraine. Do you think that is going to happen?

BREEDLOVE: Well, most will tell you, I believe now that this offensive has already begun, it is not going in the way Mr. Putin would want it to go. So, I think that the offensive is already on. But will he try something flashy? That is not beyond him. The Russians are very keen to sort of celebrate anniversaries. And so I think that Ukraine is standing ready in case that does happen.

SCIUTTO: Does Russia have the capability to do -- to bleed -- attempt to Ukraine to keep at this here in this war of attrition, and does Ukraine, in your view, have the capability to stand up to that?

BREEDLOVE: Well, Mr. Putin intends to give us the message that he will stay, and I will use your words, not my words, bleed Ukraine, because he has the autocratic or as I say the kleptocratic power to make those kinds of decisions, and he's counting on the leadership of the west to grow tired and to weaken. And so I think that is his every intention.

Ukraine, if we give them what they need, they'd beat Russia every time on the battlefield, two strategic defeats on the north and on a verge of an operational level in the south. So, Ukraine stands ready as long as the west will give them what they need.

SCIUTTO: Well, General Philip Breedlove, it's good to have you on, certainly a conversation will keep up in the coming days and weeks as we monitor the war there. Thanks for joining us this morning.

FISHER: Thank you, General.

Well, CNN is also getting a firsthand look inside that battered town in Southeastern Ukraine. CNN's Alex Marquardt filed this report for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: This fight for Vuhledar right now is one of the most important and difficult in the country. While the fight for Bakhmut is largely symbolic, this is a very strategic fight for both sides.

Vuhledar is unique and that it sits at the intersection of two main active fronts in Ukraine, the southern and the eastern front. That is why Russia wants to try to push through here to launch an offense into Donbas.

[10:25:00]

It is believed that this is one of their shaping operations, the beginning of a larger offensive to come in the next few weeks.

But they are struggling very badly right now. They have lost a huge amount of men and armored vehicles as they try to cross fields, including minefields, where the Ukrainians have been able to inflict a huge amount of damage on their troops.

At the same time, the Russians are absolutely pummeling this town. You can see all around me, these are soviet-era apartment blocks now largely empty, the residents have fled and almost every single one destroyed in varying degrees. All of the windows have been blown out. Craters here in the ground where children used to play.

Ukrainians have the benefit of the higher ground here and these buildings to use in the fighting. But as with so many of the battles here in Eastern Ukraine, it is a fight of attrition, who can hold out the longest. The Ukrainian side saying they need more ammunition to be able to keep the Russians at bay, to keep them from advancing.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, Vuhledar, in Eastern Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Do be sure to tune into CNN Tonight. Fareed Zakaria will host top Biden national security officials for a CNN town hall. Russia's invasion of Ukraine One Year Later, that's at 9:00 Eastern Time.

FISHER: And, of course, all morning, we have been watching the Alex Murdaugh murder trial. The judge just called a very short recess, and we are expecting Alex Murdaugh himself to take the stand when they return, just minutes from now. We'll take you there live in just minutes.

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