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Cross-Examination Resumes in the Murdaugh Trial; Alex Murdaugh Trail Coverage. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired February 24, 2023 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
ALEX MURDAUGH, DEFENDANT: I admit -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you want to get through it quicker, but we're not. So, answer the question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Testy, at times, as you can see there. Emotional in the cross examination yesterday. The prosecution resumes its questioning this morning. We are live at the South Carolina courthouse. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KRISTIN FISHER, CNN ANCHOR: Any moment now Ale Murdaugh will return to the stand in south Carolina as prosecutors resume their cross- examination of the ex-attorney on trial for the murders of his wife and son.
SCIUTTO: It was quite a day yesterday. Dramatic at times. Murdaugh insisted he did not kill his wife and son. He did admit, though, that he lied about being at the crime scene before the murders took place.
[09:35:05]
He admitted to lots of lies.
CNN's Dianne Gallagher joins us from outside the courthouse.
Dianne, prosecution still has a chance to cross examine here. What do we expect them to focus on today?
DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jim, we've already had a couple hours of cross-examination that got extremely testy at times between prosecutor Creighton Waters and Alex Murdaugh. Essentially, when he got up on that stand, he basically admitted to years, decades of deceit. And he told the jury, yes, I stole millions of dollars from my clients, people who were often disadvantaged and venerable. Yes, I lied to investigators. I lied to my friends. I lied to my family about where I was the night that my wife, Maggie, and my son, Paul, were killed.
But, Alex Murdaugh said, I didn't shoot them. I did not murder my family. And this time you should believe me.
And the question is going to be on whether or not that's a convincing argument to the jury for a defendant to get on the stand, it's risky no matter what, it's perhaps even riskier for Alex Murdaugh because he opened himself up to questions about the 90 plus charges that are still pending against him, dealing with those financial crimes against him.
And, look, the prosecutor went in on that yesterday. The line of questioning almost exclusively about those charges, as the - Creighton Waters attempts to sort of put together this picture of Alex Murdaugh as a man of privilege, a man who has abused the prominence that his family has established over a century in this county, and saying he's basically a known liar. We're going to see that continue today. We do anticipate for the next couple of hours this to go on, Jim, Kristin, for him to get to the murders and cross examine him on that as well.
FISHER: OK. And you are looking at live images of Alex Murdaugh sitting down inside the courtroom, about to resume his testimony.
I think -- do we want to listen in?
SCIUTTO: Let's listen in.
FISHER: Yes.
CREIGHTON WATERS, PROSECUTOR: The money you were stealing in addition to your income and the money you were borrowing was not just to pay for drugs. Would you agree with that?
ALEX MURDAUGH, MURDER DEFENDANT: Sure.
WATERS: All right.
And would you agree that your stealing, in addition to the money you were borrowing, increased over the years as we moved towards June of 2021?
MURDAUGH: Repeat that please, sir.
WATERS: Sure.
Would you agree that your stealing increased over the years as we move towards June of 2021?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: All right.
And would you admit that your stealing increased in particular after the boat wreck?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, I don't agree with that.
WATERS: You don't agree with that? MURDAUGH: I think I continued to do it, but I don't -- as I sit here
today, I don't think I took more money that I should not have taken after the boat wreck than I did before the boat wreck.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: But again the -- those documents speak for themselves, Mr. Waters. And if that's the case, then that's the case. But as we sit here, I - I think that I probably wrongly took from clients and people that trusted me more -- as much money before that boat wreck as after.
WATERS: All right.
And I'm just trying -
MURDAUGH: If not more.
WATERS: I'm just trying to get through this so we don't get bogged down like we did yesterday. All right?
MURDAUGH: I understand.
WATERS: All right.
So you wouldn't - you wouldn't agree with me that in 2019 alone you stole about $3.7 million?
MURDAUGH: No, I think that's correct.
WATERS: All right. And you -- would you agree with me, though, that that figure in 2019 was generally higher than any other year that you've been stealing since 2011?
MURDAUGH: In any year, sure, I'd agree with that.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: I thought you were talking about overall, the whole, you know, the whole cycle.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: But, yes, I would agree that in 2019 I stole more money than any other year.
WATERS: Would you agree with me that from 2015 on your legitimate income, while still very strong, was diminishing as a general matter?
MURDAUGH: Well, I think whatever my income is speaks for itself. But as a general rule, a plaintiff's lawyer, doing what we do, income ebbs and flows. Some -- you have some really good years, and you have some really lean years. And, no, I think I had some -- I think I had some good years. Maybe not, you know, $4 million and $5 million years, but I think I had some $2 million and $3 million years in there.
[09:40:08] And - and my caseload was such that, you know, I had -- one of the things I was working on that Monday was one of the biggest cases that I've ever been involved in and --
WATERS: You're talking about the Dominion case, right?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: And so, you know, I think it was cyclical. I think it -- so I don't - I don't -- without looking at the record specifically, I don't necessarily agree with that.
WATERS: OK. So, you don't remember then?
MURDAUGH: No, I do remember. I don't think I agree with that. But, again, those records will speak for themselves.
WATERS: OK. All right.
So, would you agree with me that in 2014 your reported income was over a million dollars?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, relevance, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The objection is overruled.
MURDAUGH: Reported income, like tax wise or reported -
WATERS: Yes.
MURDAUGH: I assume you have a document that says that. And if you're reading that from a document, I don't dispute it.
WATERS: I mean I'm happy to show it to you if you'd like to see it.
MURDAUGH: I trust you, Mr. Waters, so.
WATERS: All right. Well, I appreciate that.
All right, in 2015, would you agree that your reported income was over $2 million?
MURDAUGH: Again, I don't dispute that.
WATERS: All right, 2016, reported income, $900,000?
MURDAUGH: OK.
WATERS: 2017, reported income, $218,000.
MURDAUGH: OK.
WATERS: 2018, reported income of $749,000, roughly.
MURDAUGH: OK.
WATERS: And 2019, reported income of $655,000.
MURDAUGH: OK. And, see, that - that -- I mean, to me, that demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about, how it goes up and down.
WATERS: And would you agree with me that though -- during those periods of time where you were making that kind of money, you continued to steal - and I think you've already said that your stealing increased as we moved through those years as a general matter?
MURDAUGH: Absolutely. I don't dispute, and I have never disputed since I was confronted on Labor Day weekend --
WATERS: Right.
MURDAUGH: That I took money from my clients.
WATERS: We've gone through that. And I -
MURDAUGH: Well, but you keep asking me about that.
WATERS: We're good with that.
MURDAUGH: And -
WATERS: I'm asking you if your - if your income --
(INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Finish your answer.
MURDAUGH: So, the point is, is I have never, since being confronted that day my brother and my partner came to talk to me, that I have stolen money that did not belong to me, that I misled people to do it. People that I cared about, still care about, umm, a lot of them that I love and still love, and I misled them to do it. And I was wrong. I have never disputed that from day one.
WATERS: And I -- we've been through that. All I'm trying to establish right now with you, Mr. Murdaugh, is, as we move towards June of 2021, what your financial condition was like, OK? I agree you've testified to that multiple times. All right.
So, let me ask you this, during this time that your income was what we just went through, and you've conceded that your stealing was increasing, were you also borrowing significant amounts of money from Palmetto State Bank?
MURDAUGH: Yes, I'd always borrowed significant amounts of money from Palmetto State Bank, or for the last - more than the last decade. So, yes, sir, I agree with that.
WATERS: All right. Yes, but we -- as we move to June of 2021, did you have a million dollar line of credit with the bank that was pretty much maxed out? Yes or no.
MURDAUGH: In - in --
WATERS: As we move to June of 2021.
MURDAUGH: So, in June of '21?
WATERS: Sure.
MURDAUGH: Yes.
WATERS: All right.
And did you also have a $600,000 line of credit that was pretty much maxed out around that time?
MURDAUGH: I did.
WATERS: All right.
And did you also, over the years, repeatedly borrow six figures from your law partners?
MURDAUGH: Well, I borrowed money from a law partner.
WATERS: Which one?
MURDAUGH: Johnny Parker.
WATERS: Johnny Parker. OK.
And that was a fairly common occurrence over the years. It happened multiple times. Would you agree with that?
MURDAUGH: I agree that it happened multiple times.
WATERS: All right.
And you would agree also that you at -- sometimes you used some of the stolen money to pay that back?
MURDAUGH: I won't dispute that. I don't know that that's the case. I know what I saw Mr. Bernie testify to in using that particular accounting method, you know.
[09:45:09]
I see that.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: So, I don't dispute that.
WATERS: All right.
And would you agree that you also, when you needed money, occasionally borrow as much as five and six figures from your father, Mr. Randolph?
MURDAUGH: I did.
WATERS: All right.
And would you also agree that over the years, particularly as we move to June of 2021, you would use stolen money to pay that back?
MURDAUGH: I don't dispute that.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: If - if that's what the records show.
WATERS: All right.
And you - you just mentioned here in the testimony of Carson Bernie and the banker and all that, you would agree with me that, as we move to June of 2021, at least in liquid funds, you were running out of money?
MURDAUGH: In liquid funds, as in money on hand or money that I could get?
WATERS: Money that you could -- liquid funds. You're a lawyer, you know what liquid means. Were you running out of money?
MURDAUGH: Well, I don't know what you mean by liquid, Mr. Waters.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: And so -
WATERS: Money you could readily access, assets that you could readily access to pay your ever-increasing debts.
MURDAUGH: No, sir, I do not agree with that.
WATERS: You don't agree with that?
MURDAUGH: I do not agree with that.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: And I'll tell you why.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: In -- in -- so are we talking about June?
WATERS: I'm talking about as we move to June.
MURDAUGH: OK, but what time period are you talking about? From -- WATERS: All right, let's talk about January to June.
MURDAUGH: OK, January to June. January to June, you know, I can borrow money from my father, I can borrow money from Johnny Parker, I could go to the bank and borrow money. I had substantial equity in the (INAUDIBLE house, as we've talked about.
WATERS: Which was in Maggie's name, correct?
MURDAUGH: Well, it was in Maggie and my name.
WATERS: All right.
MURDAUGH: So, you know, that definitely was in both of our names.
Moselle was in Maggie's name, with substantial equity in that, that could have been borrowed against. So, under the terms, as you defined liquid assets just now as money that I would have access to, I disagree with on that -
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: For those reasons that I just said.
WATERS: Can we at least agree that generally the way the compensation structure for legitimate money that you earned in your law firm, the vast majority of your compensation does not come except for one lump sum in December? Can we agree to that?
MURDAUGH: Right. We get a salary. We would receive a salary. I believe my salary was $125,000.
WATERS: Right.
MURDAUGH: And then the income that was earned would be paid in the form of a bonus at the year end.
WATERS: All right.
And then would you agree with me that that is why you stole the Farris (ph) fees in March of 2021, because you were in desperate need of funds and you could not wait until December to access those funds?
MURDAUGH: I think there's probably a lot of reasons why I stole those funds, but I certainly would believe - or don't dispute that that's one of the reasons.
WATERS: And would you agree with me that the $792,000 that you stole of those Farris funds, that you exhausted those within about two months?
MURDAUGH: I don't know the time period, but I know that they -- I know that I exhausted them.
WATERS: Now, again, I'm trying to get through this quickly, because there's a lot more to talk about, obviously. But we went through a number of questions yesterday about the various clients that you stole from, correct? Do you remember that? Those -- the back and forth we had yesterday, do you remember all that?
MURDAUGH: Sure, I do.
WATERS: OK. All right. And so I'm going to try to shortchange this, but I think it's important that we at least say the names of the people that were involved. But let's just do this and see if we can --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to the comment, your honor. Inappropriate.
WATERS: I'll rephrase, your honor.
The clients that we're talking about, these are all real people, yes or no?
MURDAUGH: They're all real people.
WATERS: All right.
And these clients -
MURDAUGH: They're all good people.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: They're all people that I care about. That I cared about then. And a lot of them, the people that I love.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: And I did wrong by them.
WATERS: Yes, you hurt the people that you love, I know.
So -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I object to the comment (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.
WATERS: These were all people, every single one of them, that you at least had a personal conversation with at some point during the course of your representation? (INAUDIBLE) representation.
[09:50:04]
MURDAUGH: All my clients. Absolutely. I had multiple conversations with all of my clients.
WATERS: And these were people, every single one of them, real people that you looked in the eye and convinced them that everything was right? And when -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, your honor, 403, repetitive, cumulative. We spent two hours doing this yesterday.
WATERS: I'm just trying to (INAUDIBLE) simple questions that applies to everybody and then I'm moving on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Proceed.
MURDAUGH: I would have had conversations with all of my clients and at -- some of the conversations would have been on the telephone. I would have had conversations where I might not be looking them in the eye. I would have had plenty of conversations where I did look them in the eye.
WATERS: OK.
Every single one of them, looked them in the eye at least once, is that fair?
MURDAUGH: Sure.
WATERS: Every single one of them you looked them in the eye and developed their trust in you, is that true?
MURDAUGH: Every client that I had, at some point, I looked them in the eye and I believe that I had the trust of my clients. Whether that came from me looking them in the eye or not, I can't answer that. But I will agree with you that every single client, I looked them in the eye, and I believe that the people that I stole money from, for all those years, trusted me.
WATERS: And I'm going to show you what's been previously admitted as State's 329, I believe it is, and 314, and I'm just going to ask you to peruse those spreadsheets real quickly and once you have a chance to do that, let me know, I'll just have one or two questions about that.
MURDAUGH: All right, so, I'm sorry, what was your question?
WATERS: I just asked you to look at them. Have you had a chance to review those documents?
MURDAUGH: I have.
WATERS: All right.
And would you agree with me that every single name on here are either clients that trusted you that you stole from or instances in which you stole from your law partners who trusted you as well?
MURDAUGH: I agree with that.
WATERS: All right. So we don't need to go through each one of these, correct? You agree with me (ph).
MURDAUGH: Mr. Walters, like I've told you, I'll go through whatever you want to go through. But each one of those clients is just what we've already talked about. Good people, fine people, upstanding people, they trusted me. Every single one of them, I did, and I do still care about. And many of them I love and consider them close friends.
WATERS: Like Barrett Boulware?
MURDAUGH: Absolutely. It's a perfect example.
WATERS: And you stole from Barrett Boulware.
MURDAUGH: I did.
WATERS: Do you recall a conversation that you had with Ronnie Crosby in which he told you that Barrett was desperate for money because he needed his wife to stay in a hotel near him while he was undergoing treatment for terminal cancer around the time that you stole from him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Hearsay, your honor.
WATERS: I'm asking him to recall right now, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection is overruled.
MURDAUGH: I don't recall that conversation, but, you know, I knew Barrett was sick.
You know, Barrett is a unique situation. I mean Barrett -- Barrett is and was dear to me as a friend. But, I mean, Barrett and I had a long, long history. You know, I guess really -- and I lied probably more by omission lies by omission and stealing that money, but that's a perfect example. You keep asking about me having these conversation and looking people in the eye. I mean that's the perfect example. I mean, when I stole that money, he was nowhere around. It was more based on lies by omission. And Barrett and I had such a history with these real estate deals that you're asking me about. Barrett was one of my good friends. And we had been in these real estate deals together. Barrett was just an interesting person. He was a shrimper that was born and raised in Allendale County. And he moved down to the coast. And as shrimping -
WATERS: Mr. Murdaugh - Mr. Murdaugh, I don't know that we need Barrett's entire life story.
MURDAUGH: No, but it's -
WATERS: Let me just ask you this.
MURDAUGH: It's important to understand this based on the question you asked.
WATERS: I don't think his entire life story is responsive, your honor.
MURDAUGH: And I'm not intending to give his life story. I'm just telling you a little background so you understand.
WATERS: Go ahead. Tell us about your friend that you stole from. That's fine. [09:55:00]
MURDAUGH: So Barrett started - started getting into real estate. And he was really good at it. And so I started getting involved with him in that. He could go out and find pieces of property that were really cheap, get them and sell them and make money.
Well, we got in some of these deals, and we got in as Barrett and it was some other people. Well, when the recession hit, one of the reasons these land deals caused me trouble is because the people that I was in these deals with no longer could pay whereas I might have gone in and I was a 20 percent person. I'm now, all of a sudden, either I have to default at the bank and affect credit, affect the ability to borrow, or I have to pay 100 percent.
And so that's what I did, I paid 100 percent. And so there were year where I was paying instead of a fifth or a half, I'm paying the whole thing. And it equated to hundreds of thousands - it equated to millions of dollars, which is one of the ways why I ended up with the Moselle property, because I had paid more than $1 million in monies for Barrett and that was part of the deal and the trade in me purchasing Moselle.
WATERS: What you're telling me is you felt like you were entitled to steal from him.
MURDAUGH: No. No. I - you know what, I - I will tell you this, that -- you know, when you're doing the things wrong that I was doing, you have all kinds of ways of justifying it. And I'm not saying that makes it right by any means, because it's not. It's wrong. I've said that 100 times. But when I was doing it and I was as addicted as I was, and the things I was doing, there's all kinds of things that you, you know, to be able to look yourself in the mirror, you know, you lie to yourself. And I guess self-justification for these bad things, you know, I guess is what I was doing. But, Barrett had owed me so much money, that when I took his money, I just didn't tell him. So it was -- it was a lie by omission.
WATERS: All right.
All these people, on these two exhibits, these were real people that needed this money, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: I'm sure they did.
WATERS: But it was more important to you that you stole their money on top of the 40 percent of legal fees that you were taking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, asked and answered, repetitive.
WATERS: I've never asked that question.
MURDAUGH: I -- I stole their money.
WATERS: It was more important to you than their needs, is that correct? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection is overruled.
MURDAUGH: I don't remember sitting down and calculating, OK, is this more important. You know, one of the self-justifications that I talked about, Mr. Waters, is -- and this is one of the things, again, I want to make it clear, I don't -- as I sit here today, I do not believe that any of this justifications that I'm talking about made any of it OK, because I don't. I've owned up to it. All this money I stole. I've tried to since I was confronted. And I continue here today.
But one of the justifications at the time when I was taking pills and doing the things I was doing was, I may ask a partner, OK, how much is this case worth. And if - if one of my partners - and I may not even give them all the real facts, OK? So, if they said this case is worth $100,000, OK, and I go out and I get them $300,000, you know, that's one of the stupid little things, OK, well, this isn't the same. That's one of those justifications that I used in looking back on this that I don't know how I did.
But - so, to sit down and say, did I evaluate that they needed the money more than I did - I -- you know, I don't think I did that. I think I was selfish and I - I think I just took the money.
WATERS: OK. I think I understand.
I asked you a series of questions yesterday about - at least relating one conversation you had with one of these clients. And I'm just going to ask you this one. Do you remember looking Tony Satterfield in the eye and lying to him?
[10:00:00]
MURDAUGH: I remember lying to Tony Satterfield and I remember looking him in the eye on many occasions.
WATERS: And lying to him?
MURDAUGH: Yes.
WATERS: OK.
