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Alex Murdaugh Faces Day Two of Cross-Examination. Aired 10- 10:30 am ET
Aired February 24, 2023 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALEX MURDAUGH, MURDER DEFENDANT: I remember lying to Tony Satterfield. And I remember looking him in the eye on many occasions.
CREIGHTON WATERS, PROSECUTOR: And lying to him?
MURDAUGH: Yeah.
WATERS: Lying to his family?
MURDAUGH: I lied to his family. I don't know if I did it in-person. But I know I had phone conversations with him where I lied to him.
WATERS: Let's talk a little bit about the pills, if we can.
MURDAUGH: OK.
WATERS: And you've already testified, as other people that you were still able to function as a lawyer over the years despite the pills that you were using. Is that correct?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: And you were able, of course, during this period of time to engage in these relatively complicated setups that increased over the years that we've just talked about, despite the pill usage, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: I was.
WATERS: Mm?
MURDAUGH: I was.
WATERS: All right. And you were also able to -- during this time period, convince your staff that nothing was a mess with all of these exhibits, despite your pill usage?
MURDAUGH: I mean, most of those didn't require convincing my staff, but just so we're on the same page, again, I acknowledge that I certainly allowed them to be misled, I certainly allowed them to do things that I shouldn't have done on my behalf knowing that they trusted me.
WATERS: How many -- how many pills were you using a day? MURDAUGH: Depends on a number of items, most -- most importantly, how strong the pill was.
WATERS: OK, well, let's -- let's talk about -- let's say start maybe in January of 2021, and move forward. Can you describe to the jury what your daily pill intake was like?
MURDAUGH: I think at that time, most of what I was purchasing was 30 milligram pills, instant release, oxycodone. That probably mixed in with some oxycontin, which is made of oxycodone is just time release. I would have been taken -- anywhere from 1500 milligrams, maybe to -- maybe -- maybe 1000 or -- maybe 1000 milligrams, or 1200 milligrams on a day, I didn't take as much or didn't have as much up to, I mean, there are days -- many days, a lot of days, most days were more than that, and many days would be, you know, 20 -- more than 2000 milligrams a day.
WATERS: How many pills is that?
MURDAUGH: It depends on the strength.
WATERS: I'd say it's 30s that you just mentioned?
MURDAUGH: If I took 30 -- if -- if I had 30 milligram pills -- you figure 100 pills would be 3000 milligrams.
WATERS: A 100?
MURDAUGH: 100.
WATERS: So you're taking 60 a day or something like that? I mean?
MURDAUGH: There were days where I took more than that. There were days I took less than that.
WATERS: And how would you take them during the course of the day? I mean, how many have you taken at one time? How frequent in this time period and let's say January to June?
MURDAUGH: You know, there's a point in time and I'm not sure when it was. I think it was well before that where -- and you have to understand this. This is something that I didn't -- I mean, I can still remember the first time I ever took an oxycontin.
WATERS: Mr. Murdaugh, can I ask you to answer my question and I'll let you explain all you want. My question was, how many were you taking a day during this time from January to June? Answer that first, please? And if you want to explain I'm happy to let you do so.
MURDAUGH: I'm not positive. And here's why. It's because over the years, as I've seen the first oxycontin, one oxycontin made me literally -- made me sick. And that was when I was transitioning from hydrocodone to oxycodone. And it made me sick because it was a really -- really, really strong one. And so, you know, one oxycontin pill was like 10 hydrocodone pills.
[10:05:18]
So, but anyway, as I took more and more in over the years, it just, you know, you build up a tolerance to pain pills. And so what might give me this energy, what -- the reason -- one of the reasons I became so addicted is, you know, some people talk about pain pills, and how they make them lethargic. And, you know, where they can't do anything, and they feel -- opiates gave me energy. I mean, I -- it -- whatever I was doing, it made it more interesting. You know, it made me want to do it longer, you know, to go on a drive, it may drive and it just -- it just at the beginning, it made everything better. But I took so much just to keep he got to a point where I was taking so much just to not backslide or go into withdrawals or have auto symptoms. And so it got to the point where I was taking the amounts that I came to be taken in the time period. You're talking about January to June. So it evolved over time. It wasn't like it just started in, Mr. Waters.
WATERS: All right, can you give -- give me one -- one example of a day during that time period?
MURDAUGH: Sure.
WATERS: I mean, just you take -- start at eight o'clock in the morning, or whatever time you got up and take one and then one every 30 minutes. I mean --
MURDAUGH: Well, no, it --
WATERS: I'm given you a chance to explain now.
MURDAUGH: It will totally depend -- it would totally depend on any number of circumstances. So starting a day, one of the main things that this would depend on was how late the day before I had taken pills, and how many I had taken. And did I take them during the night? Did I wake up during the night? And take them. So, you know, let's just say that it had been a while since I took any and I slept and I woke up, all right. Then, I would immediately -- immediately first thing take pills, because it was been a while, a lot of times, if you slept and hadn't taken pills, you'd wake up and you could tell the beginnings of those -- and I would say they were really withdrawals, but the agitation that you feel when you don't take and you could tell it so you had to take it right away. And so I would start off, first thing I would do would take pills.
WATERS: And that's how strong the withdrawals are for opiates, correct, that you feel that agitation until you can take another pill?
MURDAUGH: Yes, I mean that but that -- I mean, that's just agitations, the tip of the iceberg when it comes to withdrawals, opiate withdrawals.
WATERS: I think you said in your last play for the jury, and the telephone conversation with Special Agent Kelly, that -- and you talked about withdrawal is just how strong they are, how you're willing to do anything to make him stop, correct?
MURDAUGH: I think when I said is almost anything. WATERS: Almost anything. Well describe that, please?
MURDAUGH: I mean, you're sick -- I mean, you're physically -- you know, you are physically sick, you -- it's like having the flu when you ache and your joints hurt. You don't want to get up and you can't get up. And that's after a while. It will -- it starts with what you're talking about agitation and, you know, fidgety -- everybody talks about how fidgety I was. But it starts with that. And then it goes to, you know, you just -- you might be sitting here and just all of a sudden sweats running down your face all over your body. I mean, you -- like you ran a marathon. I mean, you literally sweat that much. The next thing that comes on, after about -- I don't know 12 hours is I call it jumping legs. But I mean you literally -- I mean, there's no way that you could sit right here in this chair. I mean you couldn't -- you couldn't remain sitting. I mean you would have to get up and move around. And I mean it's like your legs don't want to work. And that last for about 20 -- anywhere from 18 to 24 hours.
[10:10:17]
During -- during that period, the -- you know, the intestinal issues come in and I mean you literally -- you can't control yourself. You have diarrhea, like you have food poisoning. You throw up, I mean you physically -- physically sick.
WATERS: How many time you try to self-detox?
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, dozens, dozens, if not hundreds. You know, there's so many I can't tell you.
WATERS: And those -- those symptoms you just described are extremely powerful, and made it very difficult to do that, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: Made it difficult to?
WATERS: To try to self-detox?
MURDAUGH: Oh, it is extremely hard.
WATERS: You mentioned yesterday that you are paranoid, how long has that been going on?
MURDAUGH: Well, no, I didn't say that I was paranoid. What I said was, as the addiction evolved, there would be situations where you would have these paranoid thoughts.
WATERS: And when did those first start?
MURDAUGH: I can't tell you when they first started. But --
WATERS: I mean, how long before June of 2021?
MURDAUGH: Oh, a long time.
WATERS: A week, a month, a long time? MURDAUGH: Oh no, no, no, no, no, it was, you know, it was as my addiction got worse. I mean, it was significant period of time. But, you know, we --
WATERS: How long do you have these paranoid thoughts?
MURDAUGH: Usually a matter of seconds. I mean, it was something -- again, my whole life. You wouldn't see me where I didn't have pills on me. And that's where I kept them. I kept them on me because I was scared to put them somewhere for fear somebody would find them. So I've kept them on me. So if you saw me I had pills on me. I had a pocket full of pills on June 8 -- on June 8, when -- when I was sitting in -- in David Owens' patrol car. So I always had them on me. And I might turn -- I might be going to Edisto and I turn on Hampton Street right out here. And a police car pulls out. Boom, I had paranoid thoughts. You know it just -- but I could always say you're not doing -- you're not doing anything wrong. He's not following you and I can get past it in a matter of seconds.
WATERS: Did anybody in your family ever see you having these severe withdrawals?
MURDAUGH: Absolutely.
WATERS: WATERS: And who are them?
MURDAUGH: Mags, Pawpaw, Bus, my dad, Randy, John Marvin. And just to be clear, Randy and John Marvin never saw me having withdrawals before September. They saw me --
WATERS: And I thank you for clarifying that. Prior to June 2021, who and your family saw you having these severe withdrawals?
MURDAUGH: Bus, Pawpaw, Maggie, my dad.
WATERS: Do you remember in calling -- remember calling, Paul a little detective?
MURDAUGH: I don't know that I ever called him a little detective. But I think Maggie did. I may have. I mean Paul was very intuitive. So I heard Marian --
(CROSSTALK)
WATERS: And you said that during your interviews?
MURDAUGH: I heard Marian call him a little detective. I know Maggie used to call him that.
WATERS: Did that have anything to do with the pills?
[10:15:00]
MURDAUGH: Um, well, yeah it had something to do with it but I mean Paul was always that way but that -- that what led him to be called a little detective, certainly. There were times when -- when Paul found pills.
WATERS: Including just a month before the murders, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: No, sir.
WATERS: You recall 6523 that was entered into evidence which is attacks from Paul to you?
MURDAUGH: I did.
WATERS: What you said that Maggie found pills in your back?
MURDAUGH: Right.
WATERS: Tell me about what happened after that?
MURDAUGH: You asked me about Paul finding them, but it was Maggie that found them.
WATERS: Fair enough. So it was Maggie who found?
MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.
WATERS: OK, but Paul's the one who reached out to you, correct?
MURDAUGH: On that occasion, yes, sir.
WATERS: And what was the discussion after that?
MURDAUGH: I can't remember exactly what it was. But it was about it. I had had eye surgery. The -- I don't know what day it was. But days before that, the day Maggie found them, Maggie drove me to the doctor for me to have my cataract removed, whatever -- late, whatever they call that surgery. I can't remember. But I had a cataract taken out, outpatient. You go in for a couple hours and you come out. And it was during COVID and so Maggie wasn't allowed to come into the doctor's office. And so she sat in the car and had left pills in a computer bag. And sitting out there bored, I guess she started looking at my computer and found them in the computer bag. So she found those pills.
WATERS: All right. And so she obviously told Paul and Paul texted you, correct? About finding those pills?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: In May of 2021?
MURDAUGH: That's correct.
WATERS: And you've heard your sister-in-law Marian testify that Maggie called him a little detective about the pills. You heard that testimony in this courtroom?
MURDAUGH: I did hear that.
WATERS: All right. So did they start to watch you like a hawk and get on you about your pill usage during the month of May?
MURDAUGH: No.
WATERS: They did not?
MURDAUGH: No. Mr. Waters, this battle that I had with addiction it had been going on for years, years. And so they had been watching me like a hawk for years before May. May was just one occurrence where I let them down again.
WATERS: All right. They had been watching like a hawk for years, is that correct?
MURDAUGH: About my pill addiction, yes, sir. That is correct.
WATERS: This time in May that wasn't the only time that Paul found pills or Maggie found pills, was that correct?
MURDAUGH: No, there were a number of times where Mags found pills, Pawpaw found pills. Bus found pills. I mean, it was ongoing -- it was just an ongoing battle for me.
WATERS: And after they found those pills in May, that'd be a Maggie and Paul, were they trying to get you to self-detox?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, not at that point in time.
WATERS: They just let it go?
MURDAUGH: No, they didn't let it go. But at that point in time, Pawpaw and I had already had a discussion based on -- I can't remember exactly when it was but there have been a previous occasion a good while back where -- there'd been a previous occasion where either Maggie or Paul found pills. And Paul had come to me and asked me and I told him, you know, I was back on the pills.
[10:20:00]
Um, and we had a long talk, as I said, I don't remember exactly what it was before that. Paul and I had had a long talk. And we had agreed -- I'd agreed and a detox so many times. I've been to detox. Detox at home with Maggie's help, a detox at home with doctor's help. Detox know my own, tried to -- and it just -- just detox and just didn't work. It just -- you couldn't -- you could detox but you couldn't -- no, not you. I couldn't -- I couldn't stay off of them. And so, I promised Paul that as soon as this -- as soon as we finished with his criminal case, that I will go to rehab.
And -- and on this particular occasion, Paul knew that his mom worried about me so much with pills that on this particular occasion, I think that Pawpaw convinced Maggie that I got those pills in anticipation of the eye surgery, but I never took him so that she would not worry that I was once again --
WATERS: Now you're claiming that about the time in May that -- that Paul talked to Maggie and not sure of that? Are you talking about a different time?
MURDAUGH: I'm not claiming that Mr. Waters, that's a fat, this is what happened.
WATERS: All right, we're hearing that now. Correct?
MURDAUGH: Hearing what now?
WATERS: What you just said?
MURDAUGH: Well, you just asked me this. Mr. Waters, you keep making the issue about the first time I -- you hearing these things, when -- when I got arrested and I went down, reaching out to you to talk to you about all of these things to try to tell you everything that I've done, to give you all these details, to help y'all go through these financial things. And up until the time that y'all charged me with murder and my wife and child, you would never give Jim Griffin response to our invitations to sit down and meet with you. So --
WATERS: So you're telling me, I never responded to Jim Griffin, was that what you're saying here today?
MURDAUGH: I'm telling you --
WATERS: Are you saying that you ever before yesterday reached out to anyone through yourself or through your attorneys and reached out anyone in law enforcement of the prosecution and told them the story about the kennels? Are you telling me that?
MURDAUGH: I'm -- what I'm telling you --
WATERS: Answer my question first, please, sir. Answer my question first. Did you ever reach out to anyone in law enforcement or the prosecution and tell that story that you told this jury yesterday about the kennels before yesterday? It was you --
MURDAUGH: To say I want to tell you about the kennels? No sir, I did not.
JIM GRIFFIN, ALEX MURDAUGH'S ATTORNEY: This questioning about on these charges violates his fifth amendment anymore. We have to make a motion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You brought up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objections overruled.
MURDAUGH: What I did was --
(CROSSTALK)
WATERS: Here's my question --
GRIFFIN: Yeah, right, he did not bring -- he was talking about financial stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit down Mr. Griffin.
WATERS: Yes or no question. Before yesterday, did you ever bring up what you told the story about that kennels to anybody in the prosecution or anybody in law enforcement?
MURDAUGH: No, I didn't have the opportunity to, Mr. Waters, because you would not respond to my invitations to reach out and tell you about all the things that I've done wrong. And to talk about bringing this to a head to talk about bringing this to closure.
[10:25:13]
I understand how many people are hurt, understand how angry my partners are, and how hurt they are and understand how hurt these people that I stole money from are, I understand how hurt they are. And one of the things that I believe is getting past this may help them get some closure. And so since at least January, I've been trying to sit down with y'all to talk to y'all.
WATERS: OK.
MURDAUGH: And never, never ever got a response to the multiple requests --
WATERS: Multiple requests?
WATERS: Yes, sir. Multiple requests, I would ask about this --
WATERS: Mr. Murdaugh --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's stop this, Sir.
MURDAUGH: Sir?
WATERS: Did Mark Ball ever hear your story to the jury about the kennels until yesterday? Your buddy and law partner, Mark Ball.
MURDAUGH: I haven't spoken to Mark Ball since I went to rehab.
WATERS: And these were the same all partners that you were listening to the night of, is that -- is that what you testified to this jury earlier? You testified to that earlier, did you not?
MURDAUGH: I don't understand your questions.
WATERS: Did you testified earlier that you were listening to your law partners on the night of the incident?
MURDAUGH: Did -- was I listening to them?
WATERS: Yeah. You testify to that, simple question, sir.
MURDAUGH: No. I'm sure I was it. When are you talking about?
WATERS: On June 8 in the early morning hours, you testified to this jury that you were listening to them but you never told them the kennel story either. And they heard it for the first time yesterday as well. Isn't that correct?
MURDAUGH: Yes, that's the first time they heard that.
WATERS: First time that Ronnie Crosby ever heard that, would have been yesterday?
MURDAUGH: If he was listening that would have been the first time he heard it.
WATERS: First time John Harper (ph) hear that was yesterday?
MURDAUGH: Yes.
WATERS: First time Danny Henderson who was representing you in the boat case ever heard that was yesterday?
MURDAUGH: Yes, yesterday is the first time that I have said that openly. But that's not what you asked me Mr. Waters. But go ahead.
WATERS: First time your brother Randy heard that was yesterday?
MURDAUGH: If he was listening.
MURDAUGH: And Mr. Waters, just to be clear, I was begging for a meeting with y'all to try to bring this to a close to talk me all about everything up until the time that y'all charged me with hurt and Maggie and Paul. Now, after that point in time, I stopped obviously --
WATERS: You're discussing that you were begging for a meeting. And the -- but you admit, the information was never conveyed, that you wanted to change your story after multiple interviews with law enforcement about what happened that night, including the most important fact of all, which is when the last time you supposedly saw your wife and son lab was.
MURDAUGH: I don't know exactly what was conveyed or not. Because to you because I wasn't part of it. All I know is what --
WATERS: Fair enough, you don't --
MURDAUGH: I was trying to do, was to sit down. I understood, bring all this to a close that y'all would want me to sit down and go through all of these financial things, all of these things that I've done wrong. And to try to bring that to a close, I was repeatedly trying to sit down with y'all.
WATERS: The reality is Mr. Murdaugh is the reason why no one's ever heard that before, is because you had sit in this courtroom and hear your family and your friends one after the other come in and testify that you were on that kennel video. So you like you've done so many times over the course of your life had to back up and make a new story that kind of fit with the facts that can't be denied. Isn't that true, sir?
MURDAUGH: No, sir, that's not true.
WATERS: You've done that over and over again over the years with all of this that we've been talking about, haven't you?
MURDAUGH: Done what over and over again?
WATERS: The second that you're confronted with facts that you can't deny? You immediately come up with a new lie, doesn't that correct?
MURDAUGH: Mr. Waters, have we established I have lied many times. But I can't sit here and tell you that what are you talking about facts that I can't deny that I would disagree with that proposition that you're putting out. That was what I did all the time. But in doing that, I admit again, do I have lied to people that trusted me.
