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WH Vows "Real Costs" For China If It Gives Weapons To Russia; U.S. Army Leader: Chinese Army On A "Historical Trajectory"; Jury To Visit Property Where Alex Murdaugh's Wife, Son Were Killed; Newspapers Drop "Dilbert" Comic Over Creator's Racist Rant. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 27, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Yes.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Or badminton.

GOLODRYGA: And?

BLACKWELL: Badminton.

GOLODRYGA: Okay.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: See what we could have done?

BLACKWELL: I couldn't - you know what?

GOLODRYGA: (Inaudible) chance much sooner.

BLACKWELL: It could have been me. It could have been me.

GOLODRYGA: All right. well, congratulations to them.

Well, it is the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. Hello, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell.

The White House says it's made clear to China there will be consequences if Beijing provides lethal military aid to Russia for its war in Ukraine. The CIA Chief warned he's confident that Beijing is considering sending drones and ammunition to Moscow for its troops.

GOLODRYGA: And that could make a major difference on the war's front lines as the Russians tried to capture more Ukrainian territory in the country's east. The Biden administration says if Beijing does provide weapons, it will pay a real cost.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We're not just making direct threats. We're just laying out both the stakes and the consequences, how things would unfold and we are doing that clearly and specifically behind closed doors. (END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: CNN White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond, joins us now.

So Jeremy, some intense discussions, as we know going on behind closed doors any idea how imminent this potential move by China could be though?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bianna, one thing is clear. China has been weighing this for several months now, but we're now only seeing over the last week or so U.S. officials very publicly as well as privately conveying to China that there would be severe consequences if they do indeed move forward with providing lethal aid to Russia.

So far, what we know is that China has provided only non-lethal assistance to Russia, including a body armor, for example, helmets and that type of thing. But U.S. intelligence officials now believe that China is considering providing Russia with drones and ammunition. And there are active negotiations according to multiple sources about the price and scope of that kind of lethal assistance.

Now, U.S. intelligence officials have information suggesting that China is leaning towards providing that lethal assistance, but so far, no indication that a decision has been made. Here's the CIA Director, Bill Burns on all that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: Well, we're confident that the Chinese leadership is considering the provision of lethal equipment. We also don't see that a final decision has been made yet and we don't see evidence of actual shipments of lethal equipment. And that's why, I think, Secretary Blinken and the President have thought it important to make very clear what the consequences of that would be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And that last part there that you hear from the CIA Director is so important because U.S. officials believe that part of China's calculus is actually weighing how the United States and the West - remember there is a coalition of about 30 countries led by the United States that have imposed the severe sanctions on people and entities who have provided lethal weapons support to Russia.

So part of China's calculus here is trying to figure out how the U.S. would respond. And U.S. officials are hopeful that by being so public with these warnings, that perhaps they can change the minds of Chinese leaders who might be leaning towards providing this lethal assistance. So far, though they say that China has not yet made a decision. But you heard the National Security Adviser, Jake Sullivan, he said there will be real costs and in private he also says that they're being much more specific with Chinese officials about what those costs and consequences would be.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Jeremy Diamond, thank you.

BLACKWELL: U.S. Treasury Secretary, Janet Yellen, is in Ukraine right now. She made an unannounced trip to the Ukrainian capitol today, exactly one week after the surprise visit to Kyiv by President Biden.

GOLODRYGA: Secretary Yellen held talks with Ukrainian president, Zelenskyy and other top officials. And in an op-ed in The New York Times today, she said she is in Ukraine to reaffirm the United States unwavering support.

CNN's Melissa Bell joins us now from Kyiv.

And Melissa, you spoke with Secretary Yellen. Tell us what she said.

MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. I was able to ask her about the effect of the sanctions. The latest round in particular, the 10th round of sanctions imposed over the last few days by the United States, some of the most significant so far. She said that she believed they were taking a serious toll on the Russian economy and specifically, Bianna and Victor on its ability to wage this war to replace some of the equipment that it's lost, to make its modern economy function and was having to go through backchannels through Iran and North Korea at this stage to try and resupply.

She said she believed that allies in the coming days would be able even to cut off those avenues. I asked her, of course, what the consequences would be if Beijing were to supply any of that lethal equipment that Jeremy was just talking about. This was her reply.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET YELLEN, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: Well, we have been extremely clear that we will not tolerate violation systematic violations by any country of the sanctions that we've put in place that are intended to deprive Russia of access to military equipment to wage this war. And we've been very clear with the Chinese government and have made clear to Chinese firms and financial institutions that the consequences in violating those sanctions would be very severe.

[15:05:04]

BELL: I'd like to move on to more domestic matters, if I may.

YELLEN: Sure.

BELL: We've seen the fight against inflation take a hit, PCE hitting 5.4 percent. Do you believe at this stage that the Fed is behind the curve or that a soft landing is still the most likely scenario?

YELLEN: I personally believe that it's possible to bring inflation down, while maintaining. We have a very strong labor market. I think we can maintain it. I would say so far so good. Obviously, there are risks and the global situation we face is very uncertain, there can be shocks from it.

But look, inflation still is too high, but generally if you look over the last year, inflation has been coming down and I know the Fed is committed to continuing the process of bringing it down to more normal levels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BELL: A positive note there from the Treasury Secretary on those inflationary pressures that are, of course, some of the consequences the American economy of the war in Ukraine. And I asked her how far the United States was prepared to go in its efforts to support Ukraine and to help it achieve what it's achieved so far, which is one year on to be standing up. She said, it was unwavering and would carry on for as long as it took, Bianna and Victor.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Melissa Bell, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Joining us now, retired Brig. Gen. Steve Anderson and Andrea Kendall-Taylor, she served as Deputy National Intelligence Officer on Russia and Eurasia on the National Intelligence Council. Welcome to you both.

I want to, of course, get to what Melissa discussed with Secretary Yellen and many other elements involving Ukraine. But something just came into us. This is from Gen. Charles Flynn, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Pacific, in the context of China, if they are going to offer this lethal support to Russia, also, if they're looking beyond the Ukraine war toward an invasion of Taiwan, and here's what Gen. Flynn says that he's been noticing about Chinese forces, let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. CHARLES FLYNN, U.S. ARMY PACIFIC: They are on a historical trajectory, the military arm that they have created is extraordinary. They are rehearsing, they are practicing, they are experimenting and they are preparing those forces for something. But you don't build up that kind of Arsenal to just defend and protect you, you probably are building that for other purposes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: General, what's your reaction to what you hear there?

Brig. Gen. Steve Anderson, U.S. Army (ret.): Well, obviously, we need to take this seriously, Victor. But the Chinese have been doing this for a long time and we - I believe that they're not really serious about providing support in a big way to the Russians. I think that although they're making public pronouncements to the contrary, perhaps or at least, they tried to participate by putting out this 12-point peace plan. Of course, they forgot about the 13th point which was, of course, removing all foreign troops from the sovereign state of Ukraine.

But I don't think that their economy is fragile right now. They're just coming out of COVID and I really don't think they're serious about supporting the Russians in a big way. I just don't think we're going to see that happen. And I think that actually behind closed doors, they told them, look, Vladimir, we're not going to support you on this much longer. You got to wrap this up, because the Chinese are not interested in getting - participating in to your losing effort to this absurd war. And they're not going to throw good money after that.

GOLODRYGA: Well, Andrea, we're not getting any indication that Putin is ready to wrap this war up anytime soon. In fact, it appears that he is in it for the long haul. Why do you suggest that the United States, obviously, officials will not say things on camera that they're saying behind closed doors, but what is the most effective measure that they can take to make sure that China doesn't take this step? Because it appears we've sort of run out of carrots to offer. Is it just more sticks that the U.S. is going to threaten China with?

ANDREA KENDALL-TAYLOR, FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE OFFICER ON RUSSIA AND EURASIA ON THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE COUNCIL: Yes, I think at this point, we really are looking at sticks. I think we should note that Russia-China relations have been deepening for a very long time. 2014 was a big catalyst in that and we've seen militarily, politically, economically ties across all dimensions of their relationship have deepened.

But notably, China has never had to incur any costs for its support for Russia. And so that's - this is the first time. It's a very important kind of crossroads. And so certainly the United States is threatening all sorts with sticks. And what I hope we're saying is that we will implement economic sanctions, most likely export controls.

[15:10:00]

At a very minimum the United States could add new Chinese companies to our entities list, which makes it more difficult or actually precludes those companies from receiving U.S. technology and other goods. And all the way up to the more extreme response would be the U.S. considering secondary sanctions. And that would allow the United States to sanction any company anywhere in the world that's doing business with a designated Chinese company.

So all of the - we do have a tremendous number of economic tools at our disposal. The one last point I'll make is that Europe is really important in this equation, too. So China wants to ensure that Europe is not in alignment with the United States in its confrontation with Beijing. They really have a stake in keeping Europe neutral.

And so it's really important, not just that the United States is communicating the costs, but that Europe is doing the same. I think they actually have more leverage in this situation than Washington does.

BLACKWELL: General, there appears to be no slowing in the West support militarily for Ukraine, additional pledges of hardware and artillery. There's some production issues, but still more pleasures. Can Russia win a conventionally fought war, this war, without the lethal aid support from China? ANDERSON: Well, frankly, victory, I don't think they can win the war even with conventional support from China. They're not - they have a bad army, they're 10 years away from turning around. They're poorly led, poorly equipped. They don't have noncommissioned officers.

I mean, there's a litany of reasons they're losing. Probably the most extensive and most significant is the incredible courage and tenacity of the Ukrainian people. They're just not going to kowtow to these people. They're not going to lose.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

ANDERSON: And so it's very, very important that we continue to push our attack and push our support for the Ukrainians. We need to make sure that they win the war just not merely not lose.

GOLODRYGA: Andrea, on that issue of weapons procurement that that Victor mentioned, it does appear that there's a concern about stockpiles amongst Western allies and even for defense companies to be able to produce them in time to get to Ukraine. I know you came up with a suggestion that it appears the administration is at least mauling and that is sending over weapons that were seized from Iran. How significant would a move like that be?

KENDALL-TAYLOR: Well, I don't think it's a silver bullet, certainly. And in many ways, it's more symbolic. Yes, my colleague, Jonathan Ward at CNAS and I produced a piece in The Washington Post that called on the United States to take weapons that the U.S. military and also the French and the British have seized weapons that were heading from Iran to Yemen to support the Houthis in their civil war.

A lot of those weapons are now just sitting gathering dust in ammunition depots. And so what we're calling on is for the Biden administration to consider sending those weapons to Ukraine. Already the United States is scrambling to increase our own production of ammunition to keep pace with what Ukraine is using in the war. So this is a really low cost opportunity to support Ukraine.

The Biden administration has already shown tremendous creativity in the tools that they've used, the approaches to support Ukraine, so I think this is another important way.

And by the way, relations between Russia and China - sorry, Russia and Iran have been deepening significantly. So this is another way, I think, to introduce some friction in the Russia-Iran relationship that also serves our interests.

BLACKWELL: Andrea Kendall-Taylor, Brig. Gen. Steve Anderson, thank you both.

GOLODRYGA: Well, in South Carolina, the jury continues to hear arguments in the final days of the Alex Murdaugh murder trial. We'll take you there live where the defense just called a blockbuster witness to the stand.

BLACKWELL: And later what investigators are finding after a gruesome killing of a Hong Kong model and who they believe is responsible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:17]

BLACKWELL: New developments in the double murder trial of Alex Murdaugh. Today a judge agreed to let the jury visit a property where Murdaugh's wife and son were shot and killed. Now, the disgraced former South Carolina Attorney has pleaded not guilty to their murders.

GOLODRYGA: CNN's Randi Kaye joins us live from outside the courthouse in Walterboro, South Carolina.

So Randi, prosecutors were opposed to this move. What can you tell us about that?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they really were against it, Victor and Bianna, because they feel as though it's not a true representation of the crime scene. Back in the day, these murders occurred in June of 2021 and now all this time has passed and they feel like the jury isn't going to get the real picture, specifically about the trees on the property.

They say that they are taller and thicker and that's a concern because the defense had a witness on the stand who spoke to how sound would travel on the property gunfire in particular. And he said that if Alex Murdaugh was napping or watching TV in the house, when the murders occurred, as he said he was doing, then he would not have heard the shotgun, he would not have heard the rifle that killed his wife and son.

But, of course, the state pointed out that he - this witness did these tests in January of this year, and the trees had changed. They had grown taller and much thicker. So that speaks to why they are against this jury visiting the property now at this time in the trial.

More importantly, though, there was a witness on the stand for the defense today. A forensic scientist who helped breathe new life into this theory that the defense floated earlier about this being the work of two shooters. There was a shotgun and a rifle involved as we know and this witness supported that theory that one person, Alex Murdaugh, could not have done this. Here's that exchange in court.

[15:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIMOTHY PALMBACH, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: So I think minimally, minimally that shooter is getting covered with this material, getting more or less the shockwave of that effect, and more than likely getting hit with at least something that could have done injury, a bone fragment and/or a pellet fragment. Therefore, I think that particular shooter for a brief period of time is - kind of out of this, it's not as if they can instantaneously suffer that, drop the shock on run to wherever they are - the Blackout rifle is - pick that up and then in any kind of a reasonable time period engage in a meaningful assault and effective assault.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And this witness also said because of the violent nature of Paul's shooting that the shooter would have had so much blood and fragment all over him. And we know from state witnesses, they said that Alex Murdaugh didn't have any blood on him when they arrived on scene, back to you.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Randi Kaye, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Dilbert creator Scott Adams is defending himself after hundreds of newspapers across the country dropped his popular comic strip after he went on a racist tirade. We'll break down the controversy and you'll hear his defense.

GOLODRYGA: And later how stem cell therapy could reduce the risk for heart attack and stroke. We'll tell you up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:59]

GOLODRYGA: Major newspapers, including the Los Angeles Times and The Washington Post are dropping the satirical comic strip, Dilbert, after its creator Scott Adams made racist comments in video online and on social media.

BLACKWELL: Adams went on a YouTube rant claiming black people are a hate group and that white people said get the hell away from them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT ADAMS, CREATOR, DILBERT COMIC STRIP: Today, I'm going to re- identify as white, because I don't want to be a member of a hate group. I'd accidentally joined a hate group. So if nearly half of all blacks are not okay with white people, according to this poll, not according to me, according to this poll, that's a hate group. That's a hate group. And I don't want to have anything to do with them.

And I would say, based on the current way things are going, the best advice I would give to white people is to get the hell away from black people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Polo Sandoval is here.

The first thing when he says I'm going to re-identify as white, he identified as black?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've heard that for quite some time.

BLACKWELL: Okay. SANDOVAL: And so this was basically the glass or rather the drop that made the glass spill over here and that has led to this firestorm. And I have listened in the last several days to hours of his subsequent streams to be able to cover this. And he continues to insist that his comments from last week were taken out of context that he was simply advising people to avoid hate in general, but it's simply not going well for hundreds of - the heads of hundreds of newspapers really around the world are basically severing ties with this cartoonist. They've published their - the strip for decades.

And now, Andrews McMeel Universal, the syndicator of the Dilbert cartoon also splitting ways, writing earlier today: "As a media and communications company, AMU values free speech. We are proud to promote and share many different voices and perspectives. But we will never support any commentary rooted in discrimination or hate. Recent Comments by Scott Adams regarding race and race relations do not align with our core values as a company."

So what we're seeing are these major publications, including the Washington Post that describing these recent comments that you just played a short while ago as basically promoting segregation. And you also have the heads of other publications that are calling this basically a racist rant.

And what's interesting when you listen to his hours of recent streaming, it's very difficult to gauge just how concerned he is right now. For starters, he loves attention. And I know that because I heard him say it during his latest stream. He also said that he was expecting this level of backlash, even as he was saying these comments he just played a short while ago. And he's also very familiar with the fact that he expects to lose a majority of his income as well.

However, he says this is "a useful provocation." There are many ways to start a conversation about race in America and referring to black people as a hate group is certainly not one of them. And that is why we're seeing this level of fallout and this level of backlash from so many newspapers around the world that publish this for over 30 years.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Provocation it may indeed be, but to call it useful provocation, I mean, come on. He does have his supporters though. One is a prominent name we've all talked about quite a lot, Elon Musk.

SANDOVAL: We've all heard of Elon Musk, of course. He took to Twitter basically responding not only supporting Adams, but as your - as you can see here, tweeting that "For a 'very' long time U.S. media was racist against non-white people, now they're racist against whites & Asians."

I listened to the Scott Adams' stream yesterday as he found out about this tweet and obviously hailing Elon Musk a hero. So it's interesting how basically adding himself to this conversation and what will happen to Adams next that he doesn't have the source of income anymore.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Polo Sandoval, thank you.

SANDOVAL: Thanks, guys. BLACKWELL: Thank you.

[15:30:00]

GOLODRYGA: Joining us now is CNN Senior Media Reporter, Oliver Darcy and Rashad Robinson, President of Color of Change.