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Indiana Gov. Objects To Train Wreck Waste Heading To His State; House Panel To Vote On Hot-Button TikTok Restrictions; Murdoch Admits Some Fox Hosts "Endorsed" 2020 Election Lies. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 28, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Bianna Golodryga. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

We begin with new concerns about the catastrophic train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio that led to the release of dozens of dangerous chemicals. Well, now, there's added fear not only about some pollutant levels on site but also where the waste from all the chemicals where that's headed. The governor of Indiana is pushing back against shipments of contained -- contaminated materials headed to his state. Roachdale, Indiana is one of four designated disposal facilities.

GOLODRYGA: And the only one not in Ohio. Last week, officials in Michigan and Texas also protested prompting the EPA to look elsewhere. The mayor of East Palestine gave this response a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRENT CONAWAY, MAYOR OF EAST PALESTINE, OHIO: I definitely think we're on a good path. There's definitely lots of questions that still remain to be answered. As far as people from the other states, they knew the facilities were in their states and I understand their concern. But at the same time, it's governed by the federal EPA, so therefore, you know the -- it should be safe for all the citizens there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: East Palestine's mayor met today with EPA Administrator Michael Regan, who was on his third visit to the disaster zone. CNN's Miguel Marquez joins us from East Palestine. And, Miguel, you just spoke with Michael Regan, what did he tell you?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think there's a little puzzlement as to why there is such a concern expressed not only in Indiana today, but Texas and Michigan before. These are facilities that in many cases the EPA works with on a constant basis and they incinerate and handle waste like this on any given day, 365 days of the -- of the year. The incident here has become so high profile, and there's a lot of sensitivity around it. The mayor here in East Palestine basically says look, we need this stuff taken care of. And these are facilities that can do it. And they are hoping that they can help the people here in East Palestine get rid of that stuff.

That said, a lot of this waste is already moving out. The administrator for the EPA is saying that they are working through a process now to develop a full plan with Norfolk Southern that will take some time, some weeks before they will be able to finish that plan, so then they can know the enormity of the cleanup they have. But here's how he addressed the concern about other states in the waste moving there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL REGAN, EPA ADMINISTRATION: What I do want to do is be on the same page with all of our elected officials and those who feel responsible for answering some of these questions.

MARQUEZ: So, you'll be talking to the governor of Indiana? He says he's heard third-hand that this waste is coming to his state and just has questions. Not saying he's going to reject it but that has questions.

REGAN: Any governor or any mayor that wants to have a conversation with me, I welcome those conversations. We want this to be fully transparent. And for folks to understand that we are experienced in this, these facilities are experienced in receiving this waste, and that transparency is key.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: So, interestingly, the mayor of East Palestine also today said that he felt that they were on a pretty good path to getting this situation handled, that they are in the immediate cleanup phase right now. And he feels that you know -- this is a guy who was very critical of the Biden administration early on and feels now that they are in a very -- in a pretty good place to not only have this town get through it, but come through even stronger.

They -- I've been -- I was here last week, here this week, the difference between last week and even this week and just seeing the amount of federal state and local resources, not only in town here but on the streams that run through East Palestine and everywhere else, it is noticeable. And I think people will slowly start to build confidence again. But it's going to take -- it's going to take some -- a while.

People -- you know, it was such a shock to have that explosion in town, the fire afterwards to the venting of all these chemicals and then seeing sort of the dead wildlife that happened immediately after. And I think it's just going to take a long while. The administrator of the EPA meeting with business owners, students, teachers today really trying to reach out into the community now and assure people that they are on the right path. Back to you, guys. BLACKWELL: Yes. And those state and federal officials understand that they have a lot of work to do to build that trust with the folks at East Palestine. Miguel Marquez for us there, thanks so much.

MARQUEZ: They do.

GOLODRYGA: Well, some independent researchers are keeping tabs on the 50 chemicals the EPA has been monitoring that were released by the train derailment.

BLACKWELL: These scientists say there is cause for concern specifically for nine of those chemicals. CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain. So, what are they finding?

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ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Victor and Bianna, these researchers at Texas A&M and at Carnegie Mellon University, they looked at the chemicals that the CV -- I'm sorry, that the EPA is monitoring for and they were nine in particular, that they say there were higher than normal levels. And you can take a look at these chemicals.

The third one is the one that the researchers have really zeroed in on, Acrolein. This is a chemical that is used to kill -- to kill animals, to keep certain plants from growing and spreading. It's toxic. And they're concerned about the levels of that, that it could -- and I emphasize the word could, could lead to health problems.

Now, if this all sounds kind of murky, it's because it is. It is very hard to predict based on sort of what you're measuring what's going to happen in the future. So, here is what the EPA has to say. The EPA gave us a statement that said the long-term risks referenced by this analysis, meaning the ones by the folks at Carnegie Mellon and Texas A&M, assume a lifetime of exposure, which is constant exposure for approximately 70 years. EPA does not anticipate levels of these chemicals will stay high for anywhere near that.

So, in other words, the EPA is saying, look, whatever they are now we're trying to -- you know, that will dissipate. And we're trying to help those levels go down and for the chemicals to dissipate and so, people aren't going to be breathing this in for 70 years. But how long will they be breathing it in? These are all questions that no one has answers to, which makes things even more difficult for the people of East Palestine.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, legitimate questions. Maybe not 70 years, but even one year, two years, so that's frightening for so many of the residents there.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Right now, winter storms are hitting both sides of the country. More than 30 million Americans are on alert across the U.S. Hundreds of flights already canceled today. As much as eight inches of snow could blanket parts of the Northeast, then New York City is seeing its first "major" --

GOLODRYGA: Major?

BLACKWELL: -- snow event of the season. It's not -- you know --

GOLODRYGA: Was that major for New York?

BLACKWELL: -- by then by New York standards. It's "major."

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: By comparison on what we've seen.

GOLODRYGA: This goes to show that it has been a very warm season thus far. And this is what it looks like out west in Southern California as fresh snow falls in the San Bernardino County mountains. Some residents say they'd been trapped in their homes since last week's storm. The sheriff's department there is now warning grocery stores and gas stations are critically low on supplies.

CNN's Stephanie Elam is live in San Bernardino County. So, Stephanie, officials there have declared a state of emergency. What are you seeing there on the ground?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's intense. I mean, your snowstorm sounds cute in comparison to what we're dealing with out here. It is been a ton of snow that has fallen here in San Bernardino, Bianna, and Victor.

And just if you've looked behind me, you can see where that fog line is. We went and drove up there just not too long ago. And the roads are pretty treacherous. There's some rock slides, there's some snow sliding into some of the roads and some of the places, and there are cars that are buried along the side of the road.

We actually came across a group of folks who came up here to celebrate one of their buddy's birthdays on Friday, a two-hour drive took them 10 hours. And eventually they had to get rid of one of their cars. In fact, take a listen to what Anthony Chavez told me about their journey.

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ANTHONY CHAVEZ, CAR STUCK IN SNOW: Just see everybody getting stuck and there's cars going up and they're slipping and sliding and it was just running into cars pretty much a pile-up everybody was stuck. And then there's a point where it's like OK, it's getting dark now. So, we don't want to be stuck out here for overnight so it's time to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ELAM: And they were so close to their destination. They're like -- it was only normally like 10 minutes away from where they were but they got into their other buddy's truck to get up to their Airbnb. And they were supposed to leave Sunday but they were just now digging their car out right now. So, they had a good time because they had all the provisions. But you heard that's not the case for everyone.

What we have seen in just under four days is three times the annual amount of snow that normally falls here, falling in that amount of time. And we're not done. We have another storm system coming in this evening. So, you're seeing massive amounts of snow.

The first time there was a blizzard warning for San Bernardino County ever just happening last week. So, a very different picture here than what people have become used to here in Southern California, Bianna and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Yes. By comparison, snowstorm was cute. Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Adorable. Yes.

BLACKWELL: It was adorable storm.

ELAM: It's so cute. (INAUDIBLE)

BLACKWELL: Stephanie Elam, thank you so much.

CNN meteorologist Jennifer Gray is tracking the storms across the country. So, what should we expect over the next few days?

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: You guys, California is going to get another big storm. We have Blizzard warnings yet again for the higher elevations. Winter weather advisories, winter storm warnings yet again. We could see several more feet of snow for the higher elevations and not to mention all of the rain that the lower elevations will get. So, you can see it already pushing onshore across central and northern portions of California and not to leave out Oregon, and Washington getting it too.

[14:10:05]

But heavy rain will continue to fall heavy, heavy snow, blinding conditions. When you have heavy snow falling in combination with very gusty winds, visibility is going to be down to zero. And so, the heavy rain will continue to come in as well.

This is by Wednesday morning, still raining still snowing across southern California. And this pushes very far south across the Southwest. Look at this. Rain and snow. You could see snow as far south as El Paso by the time we get into Thursday morning. So, a lot of snow for the West. This includes the Rockies.

Higher totals will be more than three feet but more widespread amounts will be anywhere from say four to six, maybe eight inches of snow. The wider picture though showing mostly sunny conditions and well above- average temperatures for the southeast. We could see severe storms over the course of the week, guys.

GOLODRYGA: Oh boy, though the West can't seem to catch a break there. Jennifer Gray, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Fox Chairman Rupert Murdoch makes a stunning admission. His network's on-air hosts endorsed what they knew were 2020 election lies. Ahead, what else we're learning from these new court documents?

GOLODRYGA: Plus, the White House is giving federal agencies 30 days to ensure they do not have TikTok on government-issued devices. And that's not the only move being the social media giant is -- that the social media giant is navigating today. We'll have more details up next.

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GOLODRYGA: A powerful House Committee is scheduled to vote on a bill that would make it easier to ban the social media app TikTok in the United States while also cracking down on other China-related monitoring. The White House is already taking action telling federal agencies that they have 30 days to remove TikTok from all government- issued devices. Here's how the Chinese foreign ministry is responding.

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MAO NING, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON: (Speaking in a foreign language)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't believe that the United States as the world's number one superpower is so afraid of a mobile phone app popular amongst young people. This shows a lack of confidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN White House correspondent Jeremy Diamond is with us now. Jeremy, fill in some of the details here.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor, listen. The White House is now taking action on this bill that Congress passed back in December which is intended to ban TikTok from all federal government devices. That includes phones and tablets. And now, the White House has issued new guidance to federal agencies giving them 30 days to ensure that TikTok is no longer if it ever was on any of those government devices.

Now, here at the White House, they have already since the Biden administration came into office, not allowed TikTok to be on any phones of any White House employees. TikTok is responding for its part -- its part calling it a political theater saying "we hope that when it comes to addressing national security concerns about TikTok beyond government devices, Congress will explore solutions that won't have the effect of censoring the voices of millions of Americans." Now, Canada, as well as the European parliament have followed through with similar measures to the one in the U.S., banning TikTok from their government devices.

Now, there is a broader question here, which is how does the United States address the broader national security concern that multiple top U.S. officials, including the CIA director, have warned that this app is a national security threat? And that's because, of course, government phones represent just a small tiny share of the millions of users here in the United States who have TikTok on their phones. What we do know is that the senator for foreign investment in the United States, CFIUS, they have been working on a deal for the last several years that could potentially allow Chinese ownership to spin off TikTok or impose some more strict limits. We will see if that deal indeed comes to fruition in the coming months, Victor, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: All right. Jeremy Diamond, thank you.

BLACKWELL: We're learning more damning details from that billion- dollar lawsuit against Fox. Chairman Rupert Murdoch acknowledged in a deposition taken by Dominion voting systems' lawyers that some hosts endorsed Donald Trump's baseless and false claims the 2020 election was stolen.

GOLODRYGA: Murdoch said, "I would have liked us to be stronger and denouncing it in hindsight." The filing also revealed that Murdoch referred to some of Trump's election lies as "BS and damaging." Can I say it? Bullshit and damaging.

BLACKWELL: Go ahead.

GOLODRYGA: Here's just a reminder of some of their coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Electronic voting machines didn't allow people to vote apparently, and that whatever you think of it the cause of it, it shakes people's faith in the system. And that is an actual threat to democracy.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: It will be impossible to ever know the true, fair, accurate election results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Joining us now is CNN media analyst Sara Fischer. She's a senior media reporter at Axios. And Dave Aronberg. He is a state attorney in Palm Beach County, Florida. Welcome both of you. Dave, let me begin with you. Proving defamation is a high bar given the First Amendment. Did Dominion do just that?

DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: Bianna, I thought this was a smoking gun because you had the boss man Rupert Murdoch testified under oath that some of his employees, his anchors, were endorsing the election lies. Now, this directly contradicts what Fox News's own lawyers are saying in their defense. So, this is a real problem for Fox News.

My advice would be to settle as soon as possible because they're going to be on the hook for billions of dollars. Yes. Because the standard is high. You have to reach actual malice. You have to show that Fox News knew these were lies and put them on anyways, which is pretty much what Rupert Murdoch is saying, or that they had a reckless disregard for the truth. Either way, you look at it, it's bad news for Fox News.

BLACKWELL: Sara, not only did Rupert Murdoch acknowledge that some of his top-line talent endorsed, and the use of the word endorsed, I want to come back to Dave on that later, the lies, but that the people who were telling the truth were punished, in some cases, fired.

SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Yes. I think what the testimony shows is that there is a big disconnect right now at Fox News. You have to give its point a defense, which is saying that this lawsuit is meritless, then you have this deposition, which says to your point, not just that you know people in Fox News endorse these theories, but that were was potentially internally at Fox for people who are trying to dispute them.

[14:20:13]

Look about the one thing that Paul Ryan kept telling Rupert Murdoch, which was revealed in this testimony yesterday. He is a member of the Board of Fox News who was trying to urge -- excuse me, Fox Corp., who was trying to urge executives to back away from these claims, and he was unable to do so successfully.

I think the big thing to watch here is that concept of endorsing, though. When you endorse something is that different from just explaining it as the news? That part of Fox News's defense is that they were just explaining it, it was a newsworthy topic, but I do think that some of the revelations from the (INAUDIBLE) testimony yesterday, show that potentially this is a lot further than an endorsement.

GOLODRYGA: Dave, it seemed that Murdoch was walking a fine line here and trying to separate the company as a whole from a few of the hosts there saying that this wasn't a theory that was endorsed wholeheartedly by Fox News, but by just a few of its anchors and hosts. Will that be a successful argument and defense for him seemingly throwing some of his top talent under the bus?

ARONBERG: Yes. Well, his top talent is working for him. They're agents of the company. And so, it's really bad that he admitted under oath that yes, his own people endorsed the big lie. Meanwhile, his lawyers are saying no, they just put these crazy people on the Sidney Powell's of the world, the Rudy Giuliani's and let them speak. And this is a First Amendment issue. We didn't endorse their viewpoint. But now you have the boss man saying, yes, we did.

Even if some of the other people at Fox News, more responsible ones backed away from it, in the end, he can't undo what Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham and Maria Bartiromo, and Lou Dobbs, the worst of all, said on the air. And that's why they're on the hook, not just for the $1.1 billion in the regular damages, but also possibly unlimited punitive damages. That's why my advice to them would be to settle because it's not going to get any better from here on out.

BLACKWELL: Dave, quickly. The legal potency or relevance of Rupert Murdoch saying yes, they endorsed their lives.

ARONBERG: Yes. I mean, endorse is endorse. You know I see what Sara said. Well, the question was, did they really endorse it? And that was going to be the big issue at the trial. Did Fox News endorse it or do they just put on these whack jobs who are just spewing nonsense?

Well, you have the top dog now saying we endorsed it. I wish I had done something about it, but we endorse it. Well, kudos to him for being honest. But at the same time, that's going to cost him a lot of money.

GOLODRYGA: Sara, what are some of the longer-term implications and the fallout potentially for the company and the brand?

FISCHER: Is there huge ramifications in response to what happens here, Bianna. So, first, if Fox wins and they don't get sued for $1.6 billion or more, I think it sets a pretty low bar for what we can tell people in America around elections. I mean, what's the repercussions for spewing election denialism if they come walk away from this claim? But if they lose, it sets a new standard for how we police misinformation on television.

If they lose, many cable networks, not just Fox, but all of them are going to be held to a new standard when it comes to libel, defamation, and what they spew on air, particularly as it comes to the elections. And that's important if you think about timing. The trial is this April. That's right around the time where you're going to start to see some more candidates announced for the 2024 election start to think about putting together a candidacy. It's going to have a major impact on what's next for our election system and for the news media in America.

BLACKWELL: Dave, just the -- we've learned from this that Rupert Murdoch asked talent to try to help Lindsey Graham that ads were sent from Fox to Jared Kushner, the Biden ads before they aired. Does the Democratic Party -- do Democratic candidates have any recourse here?

ARONBERG: You know, Victor, I don't think they do. Not in a court of law, but in a court of public opinion, definitely. I mean, it really is troubling that Fox News now, even though we suspect that it has shown in this sense to be an arm of the Republican Party giving away secrets to the Trump campaign to help them against Biden. But there doesn't seem to be any civil liability there.

And remember, the bar for defamation is still so high. You have to show smoking guns. And that's not enough because that's not defamation. That's just unethical conduct. And because of that, I think in the court of public opinion, they are going to be hurt. But in a court of law, those -- they just won't be affected by this. All in all, though, still not a good day for Fox News's reputation.

BLACKWELL: Dave Aronberg, Sara Fischer, thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: The divide among federal agencies is further deepening over the origins of COVID-19. The top State Department officials say there is not a definitive answer on the matter while the Department of Energy says the virus was likely born in a lab. We'll discuss up next.

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BLACKWELL: Dramatic testimony on Capitol Hill during a hearing on the Southern border.

GOLODRYGA: A Michigan mother who lost her two sons to fatal fentanyl overdoses pleaded with lawmakers to do more to stop the flow of the deadly drug through the U.S.-Mexico border. CNN's congressional correspondent Jessica Dean is on Capitol Hill for us. And, Jessica, it was hard not to get emotional just listening to this mother's pleas. Tell us more about it.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question about it, Bianna and Victor. This was part of a hearing for the Homeland Security Committee -- for the House Homeland Security Committee. And they're really seeking to highlight what they see as the Biden administration's failure on the border.