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House Far-Right Wing Divided About Trump Bide for GOP Nomination; Attorney General Garland Testifies Before Senate Judiciary Committee; Garland Defends DOJ in Testimony Before Senate Judiciary. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 01, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour here in the CNN Newsroom. Thanks for joining us. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Happening now, Attorney General Merrick Garland on Capitol Hill to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee for the first time this year. You see Senators Cruz and Hawley right there. He is expected to be hit with a wide range of questions, including allegations from Republicans as they said that the Justice Department is being weaponized against conservatives as well as updates into investigations into Trump and Biden. We're going to take you there live as it happens.

Plus, the annual CPAC conference kicks off today as we get new CNN reporting about what Trump's allies are doing to try to get House Republicans in his corner for 2024. Not all of them are there.

HILL: Also ahead, closing arguments are expected to begin today in the double murder trial of disgraced former Lawyer Alex Murdaugh. Jurors in that case at the crime scene at this hour. We are going to take you live to South Carolina.

Let's begin, though, this hour with CNN Senior Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid. So, Paula, Merrick Garland expected to be grilled, as Jim said, on a number of topics. What do we expect to hear?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is his first trip to Capitol Hill this year. And while this hearing is supposed to be about the oversight and the operations of the Justice Department, it is a time-honored tradition that attorneys general are instead grilled on the most politically fraught issues of the day. And there's no shortage of topics to ask him about.

Of course, the Justice Department is currently investigating both President Biden and former President Trump for their handling of classified documents. Republicans are pushing this idea that the Justice Department has been, quote, weaponized. Likely, Democrats will also have questions about police use of force and whether Garland is doing enough to hold them accountable.

Now, Garland, though, he is hoping to use this hearing as an opportunity, we are told, to highlight the work of the rank and file. The Justice Department has over 100,000 employees. He wants to highlight things that aren't covered under a special counsel, like their work on violent crimes, hate crimes, their efforts to protect reproductive rights. So, that's his challenge today, to try to highlight the bread and butter work they do that doesn't really make headlines, while many of these lawmakers will want to be headlines themselves.

HILL: Yes, that is generally what we see as well. Paula, excellent point, thank you.

Allies of former President Trump are privately pressuring House members now to throw their support behind his bid for the GOP nomination. Several of the most loyal members though of the MAGA wing appear more open to embracing Trump's potential opponents.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Melanie Zanona joins us now from Capitol Hill this morning. And, Melanie, what's remarkable here is that some Republicans are coming out and saying publicly in so many words, they prefer the nominee to be someone other than Trump. How far and wide is that, I wonder, from the Republicans you're speaking to?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, you are absolutely right, Jim. There is a lot of uncertainty over Donald Trump's presidential bid right now inside the MAGA wing, not just from the GOP. So, the MAGA wing usually has Trump's staunchest supporters on Capitol Hill.

And Manu Raju spoke to roughly two dozen members of that wing of the party and most of them were reluctant to commit to Trump just yet. Some of them just said they're waiting to see how the field develops, to see who else gets into the race. Some of them admitted there is concern about Trump's electability. And some of them they just want to see a fresh face and it's time to move on from Trump.

And I am told there's particular excitement about Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. He's actually a founding member of the freedom caucus, a group here on Capitol Hill of conservative members, and he met with some of members of the group in Florida last week. Take a look at what Republicans told Manu Raju yesterday.

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REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): We've got to have someone that can appeal to independent voters, not just Republicans, not just Democrats, and both sides have really not understood the value of those constituents, of those voters and the way that they feel about certain issues.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You don't think Trump can win?

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): I see it being uphill. Swing voters and independent voters also want the policy, but they also look at comportment and temperament. And I will just say they do not like the name-calling.

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): I supported him when nobody else did the first time. But I also know that the reality is I'm running for office, too. And I've never been a big believer in endorsements. I always say you don't pick up friend, just enemies.

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[10:05:02]

ZANONA: Now, to be clear, Donald Trump still has his fair share of supporters on Capitol Hill. A number of Republicans have already endorsed him and these MAGA members would fall in line if Trump ultimately is the nominee.

But, clearly, the pace of endorsements is something on the former president's mind. I am told that some of the people in his orbit have been privately lobbying House Republicans to come out and publicly back Trump with a particular focus on those Florida members. Jim and Erica?

SCIUTTO: Melanie Zanona, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN Senior Political Commentator Scott Jennings, former special assistant to George W. Bush, and CNN Political Commentator, former Senior Policy Adviser to the Obama White House Ashley Allison, good to have you both on this morning.

And, Scott, you are covering the Republican race very closely, I know. I mean, beyond the question if it's Trump or not Trump, does a non- MAGA candidate have a path to win the nomination or, in your view, does the MAGA wing still control the party? And are they most likely to propel if there's an alternative to Trump, a candidate, to the top?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, sure. I think he could be beaten. I think right now he has to be considered the frontrunner. I mean, look, I think Trump and DeSantis are in a different universe than everybody else who is in the race or even considering the race. One of the things that help Trump, of course, being a plurality-type candidate is if you have massive fragmentation in the field. So, we're seeing people get in or thinking about getting in. The real question is will all those people still be in by the time Iowa and New Hampshire and the early states roll around.

I think the field is going to be smaller than people think and I think people are going to drop out sooner than they did back in 2016. Trump got in the mid-40s in the Republican primary in 2016. So, the number of people exist to beat him but it would really take a winnowing of the field to do it.

HILL: Yes. It would be interesting to see, too, what the timing is on whether some of those that throw their hat in the ring.

When we look at this, we know that from a Democratic perspective, Ashley, our reporting is there is set to be a real focus on areas where the economy is very strong, the labor market, for example, also this real push, and we heard it from the president just this morning in announcing his nomination of Deputy Labor Secretary Julie Su as the nominee for new labor secretary. This push for the working class, this push for union voters, we know that's going to be a major focus. But we know on the Republican side the culture wars are front and center. Are Democrats doing enough to address that message?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the Democrats are going to have to do both. We know the economy is important to Republicans, Democrats and independent voters, and the Biden administration has done a lot to make sure working class folks, union workers, poor people have a pathway to job security and earning a living wage.

But we also know that voters want in our schools an opportunity for people to learn a comprehensive and complete teaching of our history. We know that the majority of voters believe in reproductive rights. And what we're seeing right now, we know that voters believe that LGBTQ folks should be able to identify and love who they love. And right now, we're seeing many folks on the Republican side who are throwing their hates in, attacking those communities. Well, those folks are also voters and they have families, as well.

And so I think the Dems are going to have to figure out how to push back and get on offense because there are popular issues for voters, whether they identify with a particular community or not.

SCIUTTO: Scott, let's go back for a second and put those candidates up on the screen again. Because it strikes me, when you look at one candidate who has announced so far, Nikki Haley, and others in that group, Mike Pence, Tim Scott, Larry Hogan, Sununu, particularly Youngkin, Hutchinson, I mean, they are all -- except for DeSantis and perhaps Pompeo, they are all pretty explicitly or explicitly non-MAGA candidates and ones who -- a couple of them have been willing to call out Trump personally.

Do you see a path for them realistically in this cycle winning the Republican nomination? Can they garner enough votes to take the party back in a direction, and I think I might say, based on your comments, more of a party you're familiar with and remember?

JENNINGS: Well, I think it depends on DeSantis. If DeSantis runs, the other non-Trump candidates are going to have a really hard time. I think Glenn Youngkin is extremely interesting. I think Tim Scott's message and communications ability is really in the top tier of this race. But when you just look at where the candidates start out with Trump and DeSantis in terms of raw name I.D., in terms of favorability, they're just in a totally different universe.

So, I really don't think it's as much about Trump, Jim, as it is about DeSantis, because just how far ahead of the field that he starts in terms of his own name, fundraising, the donors that are already coming to the table. I think when you're trying to divide the party up into MAGA or non-MAGA, what you're really talking about is a bunch of people who would say, I voted for Trump twice, I agree with most of what he did, but I don't think he can win.

[10:10:00]

So, you're going to end up having to attract a bunch of Trump approvers if you want to beat him in this primary.

So, I don't think anyone is going to win this nomination by explicitly running as a never Trumper but they're going to run possibly a successful campaign by saying we have to evolve beyond him because the odds of him between Joe Biden are really high.

HILL: Let's talk really quickly about what's happening in Washington. So, House Democrats had their annual retreat. Congressman Pete Aguilar says the theme is people over politics. There's a lengthy to-do list, Ashley, that focuses on the economy, on national security, on social issues. When you look at all of that and what they're hoping to tackle and the reality of a divided Congress at this point, where do you see opportunities for some bipartisan work?

ALLISON: I'll be honest. I'm not as hopeful as maybe some of the members of Congress are right now. I think that Kevin McCarthy has made it very clear on what he doesn't want to do for the American people but I think there is an opportunity for that for Democrats in Washington to continue to call the questions on gun safety, on reproductive rights, on the economy, on the things that American people want their government to deliver and provide for them and let the votes and the roll call be had that who won't even bring the vote to the floor, and those are Republicans.

So, I think what you're seeing is Democrats saying, this is our agenda or these are the policies that we really want to deliver for the American people and look who is standing in the way. And those people who are standing in the way happen to be the people who are elected to the Republican Party, which is a strong message, I think, going into the '24 election cycle.

SCIUTTO: Ashley Allison --

JENNINGS: Can I comment on that really quickly?

SCIUTTO: Sure.

JENNINGS: Can I just say one thing about -- I think there will be some bipartisan movement on China. They've got the select committee on China in the House. It's obvious there are members in both parties that know it is vital that we stand up to China economically, militarily, strategically. I really do think you are going to see a strong bipartisan majority take a strong stand in various ways against China over the next two years. It could be a real bright spot for this Congress.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You do see that and there is even a bipartisan effort now to regulate the rail industry in the wake of East Palestine. We'll watch closely. Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, thanks so much to both of you.

Still to come this hour, millions of Americans will now have less money to help put food on the table as a pandemic-era boost to food stamps, as they're known, ends today.

HILL: Plus, TikTok now cracking down in just how much time teens can spend on the app. How the platform is trying to limit screen time.

Plus, the fight to certify the equal rights amendment. Activist and Actress Alyssa Milano joining us to discuss the movements and her efforts next step after a federal judge dismissed the latest effort to add it to the Constitution.

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SCIUTTO: Attorney General Merrick Garland testifying now before the Senate Judiciary Committee, expected to defend the agency on a number of ongoing investigations. Let's listen in to his opening statement.

MERRICK GARLAND, ATTORNEY GENERAL: -- every day, our FBI and ATF and DEA agents and our deputy U.S. Marshals put their lives on the line to disrupt threats and respond to crisis. Every day, the department employees counter complex threats to our national security. They fiercely protect the civil rights of our citizens. They pursue accountability for environmental harms. They prosecute crimes that victimize workers, consumers and taxpayers. And they defend our country's democratic institutions. And every day in everything they do, the employees of the Justice Department adhere to and uphold the rule of law that is the foundation of our system of government. Thank you for an opportunity to discuss our work.

First, upholding the rule of law. When I began my tenure as attorney general, I said it would be my mission to reaffirm the norms that have guided the Justice Department for nearly 50 years. I do it so because those norms matter now more than ever to our democracy. The health of our democracy requires that the Justice Department treat like cases alike and that we apply the law in a way that respects the Constitution. It requires that as much as possible we speak through our work and our filings in court so that we do not jeopardize the viability of our investigations and the civil liberties of our citizens.

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The survival of our democracy requires that we stand firmly against attempts to undermine the rule of law both at home and abroad.

I am proud of the work that the department has gotten on each of these fronts. We are strengthening the norms that protect the department's independence and integrity. We are securing convictions for a wide range of criminal conduct related to the January 6th attack on the Capitol. We are disrupting, investigating and prosecuting violence and threats of violence targeting those who serve the public. And we are working closer than ever with our Ukrainian partners in defense of democracy, justice and the rule of law. We will continue to do so for as long as it takes.

Second, keeping our country safe. The Justice Department is using every resource at our disposal to keep our country safe. We are working to working to counter, disrupt threats by nation states, terrorist groups, radicalized individuals and cyber criminals. And together with our partners across the country, we are continuing to combat the rise in violent crime that began in 2020. All 94 of our U.S. attorneys' offices are working alongside their state and local partners to pursue district-specific violent crime reduction strategies.

The department's grant-making components are providing financial assistance to local law enforcement agencies. At the same time, they are supporting community-led violence intervention efforts. And our law enforcement components are working with state, local, tribal and territorial counterparts to apprehend the most dangerous fugitives and seize illegal drugs and illegal guns. For example, last year, DEA and its partners seized enough fentanyl-laced pills and powder to kill every single American.

We are also aggressively prosecuting the crimes that inflict economic harm on the American people. We are prioritizing the prosecution of schemes that impact older Americans and vulnerable populations as well as schemes involving pandemic and procurement fraud. In our corporate criminal enforcement, we are prioritizing and securing individual accountability and we are vigorously forcing our antitrust laws. Enforcement actions have already resulted in the blocking or abandonment of mergers that would have stifled competition and harmed consumers.

Third, protecting civil rights. Protecting civil rights was a founding purpose of the Justice Department and it remains an urgent priority. The department's storied civil rights division has been at the forefront of efforts to protect the right to vote, ensure constitutional policing and enforce federal statutes prohibiting discrimination in all of its forms.

But now, protecting civil rights is also the responsibility of every Justice Department employee every single day. We are working across components to combat hate crimes and improve hate crimes reporting. In the wake of the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe and Casey, the department has pulled together to protect reproductive freedom under federal law and the department recognizes that communities color, indigenous communities and low-income communities often bear the brunt, harm caused environmental crime, pollution and climate change. So we are prioritizing cases that will have the greatest impact on the most communities most burdened by those harms.

I am proud of the work of the department's employees, the work they have done to uphold the rule of law, to keep our country safe and protect civil rights. The department's career workforce has demonstrated extraordinary resilience after years of unprecedented challenges. They have conducted themselves with the utmost integrity without regard to any partisan or any other inappropriate influences and they have done their work with a singular commitment to the public we all serve. The employees of the Justice Department are dedicated, skilled and patriotic public servants. It is my honor to represent them here today. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I look forward to your questions.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Thanks, Attorney General. You grew up in Lincolnwood, Illinois, if I'm not mistaken, at least part of your life?

GARLAND: That's true.

DURBIN: It's not far from Highland Park, is it?

GARLAND: That's also true.

DURBIN: And we know what happened last 4th of July when the people of Highland Park gathered for a 4th of July parade. A gunman on the roof of a business downtown and fired off 83 rounds into the crowd in 60 seconds. Even the armed good guys, the policemen who were there trying to protect the public had trouble locating that person and certainly, sadly, could not have the time to respond to what he had done until it was finished.

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When he was finished, there was an eight-year-old Cooper Roberts who will be paralyzed for life. There was a young man, a two-year-old, Aiden McCarthy, who became an orphan because both of his parents were killed. Seven total lives were lost, 50 people were injured.

And it is hard for me to imagine that some disciple of originalism believes that our Second Amendment envision would happen in Highland Park. To think that there is a weapon out there, a military-style weapon, and the rounds and clips available to fire off multiple rounds into innocent crowds just, to me makes little or no sense when you read the basic language of the Second Amendment.

And so Congress did something, and I want to credit Senator Cornyn for being a participant in this effort, a leader in this effort, with Senator Murphy of Connecticut, to try to pass a bill to make it better. The bipartisan Safer Communities Act addressed issues of straw purchasing, which we have discussed before, the terrible death of Ella French, a Chicago policeman, because of the straw purchase made in the state of Indiana, and this situation with the shootings of innocent individuals in Highland Park.

I'd like to ask you, what have you seen, if anything, this change for the better since we passed our law?

GARLAND: I think it's a very important law, and I am grateful to the members who sponsored it and to the overall Congress that passed it. It's done several things for us. First of all, it has, as you said, established a standalone crime for straw purchasing and a standalone crime for trafficking in illegal weapons. We have already --

DURBIN: Are these being prosecuted?

GARLAND: Yes. In both cases, we have already brought trafficking cases. I think we already have two gun trafficking cases and several straw purchasing cases as a consequence of this law.

In addition, the law provided for enhanced background checks for people under 21, and we have largely completed the process of making those possible so that juvenile records that disclose prohibited conduct and make somebody a prohibited possessor would now be identified. That's another thing we've done. That a statute also provided funds under the burden program and additional programs for violence intervention and for helping states deal with red flag laws, so that people who have been subject to a court order barring them from obtaining a gun. We would be able to get those kinds of systems provided. And we've already given out grants in both of those areas.

DURBIN: Senator Graham basically challenged me, and I accept the challenge to show as much concern about the gun deaths and show as much concern about fentanyl deaths in this country, and I want to do that. He noted, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the number one cause of death, people 18 to 45, is drug overdose. I don't know if it's fentanyl specifically, but drug overdose, and I know that reality. But the number one cause of death to children under the age of 18 is gun violence in America, too. We can do both. We must do both. So, let's address the fentanyl issue for a minute.

We had a hearing in this committee two or three weeks ago which talked about the social media platforms and what they're peddling to Americans, particularly to our children across America. There were mothers sitting there where you are sitting today who brought colored photographs of their children who died as a result of their trafficking or the information in social media, and there's little or no responsibility accepted by these platforms. Section 230 absolves them from civil liability when they broadcast things which harm children, whether it's bullying or harassment or something as basic as this choke challenge, which unfortunately claims the lives of children, as well.

I think there was a general consensus on this committee, which is saying something that we need to do something about the social media platforms. And I coincidentally had a meeting just a day or two later with Anne Milgram from the Drug Enforcement Agency. She described for me the sale on the internet and social media platforms of phony drugs, as Senator Graham made the reference to a person who thought they were buying Percocet and bought fentanyl and died as a result of it.

I asked her how common this was. She said, very common. The sellers even have valet services where they will physically deliver boxes of these phony drugs to people at their homes or their porches.

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This is out of hand. Do you believe we need to do more to regulate and control the use of social media platforms that are currently exploiting families and children across America?

GARLAND: Senator, I agree with both you and Senator Graham with respect to how horrible the situation is. I have personally met with the families of children and teenagers and young adults and even the elderly who have taken these pills often thinking that they're taking Adderall or Oxycodone or Percocet, a prescription drug, but when, in fact, it is filled with fentanyl. And as the DEA administrator's testimony demonstrated, six out of ten of those pills are fatal dose that cartels that are creating these pills and that are distributing them within the United States are the most horrid individuals you can imagine. And, unfortunately, they are doing it on social media, advertising as if they are prescription pills.

So, the DEA has a program of going out to the social media companies and urging them to advise DEA when they see this and advising --

DURBIN: Ms. Milgram told me that when they approached social media and asked for the algorithms so that they can get to the root cause of this death and destruction, the social media platforms plead Section 230 and refused. What do we do?

GARLAND: Well, I think we do have to do something to force them to provide information, to search their own platform for sales of illegal drugs. This is a --

DURBIN: I tell you, I mean -- I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think Section 230 has become a suicide pact. We have basically said to these companies, you are absolved from liability, make money and they're at it overtime. And deaths result from it and we have a responsibility. I think the committee really spoke to it and we may see it differently but on a bipartisan basis.

And I've spoken to Senator Graham, and I want to make sure that when we agree, it also is publicized, we both feel very strongly that this committee needs to be a venue to take on this issue. I hope we have your support and the support of the president when we do that.

GARLAND: You certainly have my support with respect to finding a better way to get the social media companies, whether it's civil or criminal, to take these kinds of things off their platforms, to search for them, to not algorithms that recommend them. I totally agree with that, Senator.

DURBIN: Thank you. Senator Graham?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you. Again, welcome, Attorney General.

I'm going to do something maybe a bit different. I'm going to try to find consensus where we can, see how far we go. Do you agree that the Wagner organization associated with Russia should be a foreign terrorist organization in our U.S. law?

GARLAND: I think they are an organization that's committing war crimes, an organization that's damaging the United States. I think they've already been designated as a --

GRAHAM: Criminal, yes.

GARLAND: Yes, TCO. I'm trying to get --

GRAHAM: I want to go up a notch. Are you okay with that?

GARLAND: I understand. This is a -- the way in which determinations are made with respect to terrorist organizations come through the State Department. They have to make determinations of what the consequences for countries that have them in --

GRAHAM: Do you object to me trying to make them a foreign terrorist?

GARLAND: I don't object. I think, though, that I would defer in the end to the State Department on this.

GRAHAM: Yes, we all are. I bet we will all come together on that one.

Fentanyl. Fentanyl deaths are more than gun and accident deaths combined in the United States, did you know that?

GARLAND: Yes, sir.

GRAHAM: I mean, this is -- how would you describe the fentanyl problem in America?

GARLAND: It's a horrible epidemic, but it's an epidemic that's been unleashed on purpose by the Sinaloa and the new generation Jalisco cartels.

GRAHAM: Let's just stop and absorb that for a moment. It's a horrible epidemic. It kills more people than car wrecks and gun violence combined. And the question is what are we going to do about it? Under current law, fentanyl loses its schedule and one status by the end of the year, you oppose that, I assume.

GARLAND: I certainly do. Fentanyl -- all fentanyl-related drugs should be scheduled permanently in this --

GRAHAM: These court mandatory minimums for people dealing in fentanyl?

GARLAND: I think we already have mandatory minimums for people?

GRAHAM: Do you think they should be increased?

GARLAND: I think we have more than enough ability now to attack this problem.

GRAHAM: Well, would you agree with me whatever we have is not working? Whatever we're doing is not working.

GARLAND: I agree with that because of the number of deaths that you pointed out. So --

GRAHAM: So, just keep an open mind that what we've got on the books is not working. If somebody gave a pill to another person with arsenic or ricin, could they be charged for murder because that will kill you?

[10:30:03]

GARLAND: Absolutely.

GRAHAM: Okay.