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Atty General Garland Testifies For First Time Under Divided Congress; Head-On Train Crash In Greece Kills At Least 38, Injures 70+; Lori Lightfoot Loses Re-Election Bid To Two Other Democrats. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 01, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

Today, the nation's top law enforcer testified under the divided Congress for the first time. Attorney General Merrick Garland went before the Senate Judiciary Committee to defend his department and answer questions about everything from gun violence to tech giants to child labor and much more. But he gave an early sign that he would not go into detail about some of the Justice Department's most politically fraught investigations.

BLACKWELL: That includes the classified documents found at the home of current and former presidents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: It requires that as much as possible, we speak through our work and our filings in court so that we do not jeopardize the viability of our investigations and the civil liberties of our citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: As expected, the attorney general received his toughest questions from Republicans. Texas Senator Ted Cruz slammed Garland for failing to arrest any protests are opposed to the overturning of Roe v. Wade, who demonstrate it outside the homes of some Supreme Court justices.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX): In my judgment, the Department of Justice has been politicized to the greatest extent I've ever seen.

GARLAND: And I vigorously disagree with. I believe the men and women of the department pursue their work every single day in a nonpartisan and appropriate way. CRUZ: General Garland, there are thousands of men and women who do that. And I'll tell you. I hear from prosecutors at the Department of Justice. I hear from agents at the FBI who are angry that it is treated as the enforcement arm for the DNC. Have you brought a single case against any of these protesters threatening the judgment -- Justices under 18 U.S.C. Section 1507? Have you brought even one?

GARLAND: Senator, you asked me whether I sat on my hands and quite the opposite. I sent 70 United States Marshal to defend --

CRUZ: Let me try again. Have you -- has the Department of Justice brought even a single case under the statute? So yes, no question. It's not a give a speech on the other things you did.

GARLAND: The job of the United States Marshals is to defend the lives of the --

CRUZ: So, the answer is no.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Garland later said the decisions about arrests are made by the officers in the field. CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez has been following this hearing. For as fiery as back and forth goes, you just saw it. That was as fiery as the AG got. But we saw a lot of incoming from Republicans and some Democrats.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there was a lot of incoming. And look, I mean, this has been a wide-ranging hearing with a number of subjects. They've touched on everything from Hunter Biden's laptop to Taylor Swift lyrics, you know, in reference to the Ticketmaster. The investigation of whether Ticketmaster is abusing its power in the marketplace is part of an antitrust investigation.

But you hear there from both Senator Cruz and from Josh Hawley, you hear the attorney general trying to push back against some of the accusations from Republicans that they're claiming that there are two systems of justice in America, one of them for conservatives, and another one for liberals. It's a theme that you see over and over throughout this hearing from the Republican side of the -- of the aisle there. There was, however, a little bit -- a bit of agreement. You heard from the attorney general who's expressing some concern about the fentanyl crisis and certainly, what could be done about it. Here is an exchange with Senator Lindsey Graham, who's asking about whether it's time to designate the drug cartels that are causing some of this crisis -- whether it's time to designate them as a terrorist group. Listen.

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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC): Mexican drug cartels, should they be designated foreign terrorist organizations under U.S. law?

GARLAND: Yes. I think it's the same answer I gave before. They are already designated in any number of ways and sanctioned by the Treasury Department. GRAHAM: Would you oppose some of us trying to make them foreign terrorist organizations?

GARLAND: I wouldn't oppose it. But again, I want to point out their diplomatic concerns. We need the assistance of Mexico in this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREZ: And I should note that this is an issue that the -- that some Republicans have been pushing for some years, even during the Trump administration. The Justice Department under the Trump administration oppose this idea simply because of some of the issues that it would cause with Mexico. But you could see the hearing is still ongoing at this hour and there's a lot more questions coming to the attorney general fast and furious from the Republican side especially.

[14:05:05]

GOLODRYGA: All right, Evan Perez, thank you. And joining us now are two former members of the Justice Department. Andrew McCabe is CNN senior law enforcement analyst who served as FBI deputy director and Jennifer Rogers is CNN legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor. Jen, I'll start with you. What stood out to you? The Attorney General is typical, very even measured, right didn't lose his cool, but some harsh questioning coming his way?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. I mean, listen, it's important for the AG to go to Congress when he's called there. This happened very infrequently during the Trump years, so it's good to see Merrick Garland going and answering questions. They're legitimate questions for DOJ, and Congress has an oversight responsibility. So, I'm glad to see that he went.

No real surprises they want to know about Hunter Biden. They want to pick at him and push him in a variety of ways. But I really haven't heard anything that interesting today, to be honest with you. He's answering as I would expect him to answer. He's getting the blowback I would expect. And you know, no surprises so far.

BLACKWELL: Which is the goal, right, Andy, you want to go in with the headlines that you want to make and not come out with ones that maybe your opposition or perceived opposition they want to make, right?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Victor, the goal -- I assume is I know it was when I was there, the goal is survival. You know that you're going to face some very tough questions. You know that you're going to face questions that are really designed not to elicit responsive answers or substantive answers. There are really questions that are -- that are posed to give the senators an opportunity to push the narratives that they think are important political narratives, whatever that might be.

And so, you find yourself boxed into these corners where you get a -- you know, articulating a clear substantive answer is just not possible. And so that sort of combat goes on while you're in the hearing. If at the end of it, you get up and you're able to walk away and get back to your office still in one piece, then it's a success.

BLACKWELL: Wow. If you could get up and walk away.

GOLODRYGA: The bar is that low.

BLACKWELL: Goodness. All right.

GOLODRYGA: Andy, let me stick with you --

MCCABE: It's because there will be no bar.

GEIST: -- because the crux of the questioning had to do with domestic issues, everything ranging from fentanyl to gun violence and social media and obviously, Hunter Biden. But there was a question that I took interest with, and that was come from Lindsey Graham. And he asked how difficult it is to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terror. How difficult is it?

MCCABE: Well, there's a number of kinds of process -- procedural hurdles that you have to get over. The designation of state sponsor if a terror happens in the State Department, so that's something not actually under the authority of the attorney general. There are diplomatic consequences of doing that. But it also opens up other opportunities on the criminal investigative and prosecutorial side.

You can start to use, you know, statutes like the material support to terrorism statutes, and go after people and prosecute them for providing assistance to the newly designated entity. I guess that would be the Russian government. So, there are definitely upsides in terms of expanding investigative and prosecutorial authority but there are downsides on the diplomatic front and that's really in the State Department's area.

BLACKWELL: There was an interesting exchange, Jen, between the AG and a Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse where he asked about if it's time for the DOJ to revisit some of the Office of Legal Counsel opinions, specifically the one that he highlighted that now Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson talked about and criticized that those who are very close to the president, his closest advisors have absolute immunity, as he phrased it, the precludes them from appearing for testimony even before Congress. Is that something they should revisit? And is that something that there is a groundswell that the AG may have to respond to?

RODGERS: Well, I haven't heard the groundswell yet but this might be the first step in that. I mean, this is an interesting question because you don't want them to revisit all the LLC guidance every time the administration changes, right?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

RODGERS: Obviously, that you want these to be based on law, not on politics and who's sitting in the seat of government. At the same time, you know, things do change. If you have an LLC opinion written some time ago, and judges have rejected it. They've said, this is not legally sound, then it does seem to me like there's some cause to look at it. So, I think Garland, you know, we know he's such a cautious person, so deliberative, hopefully, he will start to think about this. And if he finds that there are some LLC opinions that need a second look, you know, I think that he should be open to doing this.

BLACKWELL: And institutionalist, right?

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

RODGERS: Vey much so.

BLACKWELL: So, that we know about it as well.

RODGERS: And that's why he pushes back on this a little bit. You know, he in some ways wants DOJ to be in violent and not have its questions -- its opinions question, but you know, I do think if there's a cost to do it. I hope he'll be thoughtful about that.

GOLODRYGA: Andy, while we have you, let me ask you about some reporting that came out today that really talks about the disconnect and some of the tension amongst FBI agents and the DOJ as they were going into the probe in the search of the former president's home in Mar-a-Lago looking for those classified documents.

[14:10:08]

The reporting suggests that the FBI had been hoping to take a more measured approach and perhaps not as aggressive, but prosecutors ultimately got their way. But I'd love to get your thoughts on what came out of that report and what you make of it.

MCCABE: Yes, Bianna, it's a really fascinating reporting in the --

GOLODRYGA: And that's the Washington Post reporting we should note.

MCCABE: That's right, yes. Fascinating reporting in the Post today. I should start out by saying it's not -- it's not unusual that the department and the FBI see things differently, particularly in a -- in a -- in a case that's being investigated with so much attention and there's so much pressure on both sides. There are often arguments about the best tact to take whether that's access to a witness or evidence through a search warrant, or even arrest procedures, things like that. In this case, I think it's remarkable what you're seeing if the reporting is accurate, and that's a big If, what they're saying is that there was -- that there was significant reluctance on the part of some folks in the bureau to move forward with the search because essentially, they were afraid of the fallout, the fallout on the agency and the fallout on individuals from conducting that sort of a provocative step that involved the former president.

They -- you know, they've even referred to it in the article as the crossfire hurricane hangover, people are very wary of seeing what happened to bureau leaders and people like me after having been involved in investigating the former president and we're still targeted to this day. The concern that I have, and it was my concern back in when I was in the FBI and making some of those decisions, is when you are investigating someone who is a political figure, that is not a political act if you are following the facts and the law, you are doing your job. When you choose not to take some investigative step of a political figure because you're concerned about the political fallout and the potential blowback that is in injecting politics into the work of the FBI and the Department.

So, as hard as it may be in those moments, knowing the sort of retaliation they may be subjected to and I completely identify with all that, it's still absolutely essential to take those steps that you know are legally required and in the best interest of justice and meeting your obligations as an investigator. So, I'm glad they executed the search warrant but we all know now that that was certainly the right thing to do.

BLACKWELL: All right, Andy McCabe, Jennifer Rogers, thank you.

GOLODRYGA: All right now, a desperate search for survivors is underway in Greece. You're looking at the mangled wreckage from a head-on collision between a passenger train and a freight train overnight. At least 38 people were killed and more than 70 injured.

BLACKWELL: More than 350 people were on the passenger train when the collision happened. Several cars derailed and caught fire. CNN Eleni Diokos is following this for us. Greece's Prime Minister is saying that tragic human error caused this fatal crash, so what do you know about the investigation so far?

ELENI GIOKOS, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, just seeing those images is pretty shocking to see two trains on the same track going in opposite directions that resulted in this collision. The prime minister is saying mainly human error. The station master of Larissa Train Station has been arrested and he's been charged, as well.

We've had the transport minister that has resigned. And actually, most telling when he resigned, he says that they knew that they inherited a railway system that is not up to 21st century standards. They have tried every effort to improve this reality but they have failed. And that's resulted in this bad incident.

Right now, the prime minister promising that they will leave no stone unturned in figuring out what went wrong. But the sense here is that the passenger train was moved onto the wrong track, and no one noticed. And it traveled for 15 kilometers at 166 kilometers an hour, eventually resulting the collision. I want you to take a look at CCTV footage that captured the moment of collision.

You see a fire erupting, a fire that burned 1300 degrees Celsius A fire so intense. It was difficult to put out. And as we say now, 38 people losing their lives. We're hearing from health officials that the only way to identify the dead is through DNA testing.

This is after a three-day holiday period. It was ash Monday, and many, many young students -- university students getting back to Thessaloniki from Athens losing their lives. Greece is in shock. And, of course, they're going to be repercussions because it was a well- known fact that there were major failures in the railway systems in Greece that had not been upgraded.

[14:15:07]

GOLODRYGA: Just horrific. And as we say, 38 killed at least and over 70 injured. Eleni Giokos, you'll continue to follow this story for us. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: A political shakeup in Chicago. Mayor Lori Lightfoot becomes the city's first mayor in 40 years to lose a reelection attempt. Ahead. The major concerns that weighed on voters.

GOLODRYGA: Plus. Trump allies are privately pressuring House members to throw their support behind him. But some of the most loyal members of the MAGA wing seem more open to embracing his potential opponents. We'll have the details next.

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BLACKWELL: Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot just lost her reelection bid, the city's first incumbent in 40 years to suffer defeat after one term. She got only 17 percent of the vote. Other issues factored in certainly, but the race is largely seen as a barometer on how Americans feel about crime.

GOLODRYGA: A Democrat who ran on tougher crime laws will advance to the runoff. Paul Vallas, former head of Chicago schools will face Cook County Commissioner Brandon Johnson. CNN's Omar Jimenez joins us live from Chicago. So, Omar, we knew this was going to be a tough battle for Lightfoot, but this really was surprising. 17 percent?

[14:20:08]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, look, I talked to Mayor Lori Lightfoot about halfway through her administration. And in that conversation, she told me point blank. If people don't feel safe, literally nothing else matters. And this election felt very much like the embodiment of that. She was the city's first black woman to be elected mayor, the first openly gay mayor as well but now she's set to become the first full-term incumbent in 40 years not to win reelection as mayor here in Chicago.

And look, this came on the other side of what she described as a once- in-a-lifetime set of challenges from the peak of a pandemic to jumps in gun violence that we saw not just here, but in places across the country as well. Ultimately, though, that came down to last night where she conceded. Take a listen to some of what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORI LIGHTFOOT, MAYOR OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS: I am grateful to the millions of Chicagoans who came together as we made tough decisions, saw the struggles of our frontline workers, and beat back a deadly pandemic.

(END VIDEO CLIP) JIMENEZ: Now, she also touted investments she made on the south and west sides of the city, which brought her a lot of support in this but clearly not enough. Now, as for the two candidates who are projected to go through to the runoff election, it's essentially looking like a battle between the police union and the teachers union. On one side, you have Paul Vallas, who is a former head of schools in Chicago and Philadelphia. He ran a very focused on public safety campaign. He's got the support of the police union. And then there's Brandon Johnson, a Cook County Commissioner, former teacher who has the support of the teacher's union. Take a listen to them as they celebrated their projected victories.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL VALLAS, CHICAGO DEMOCRATIC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: We will make Chicago the safest city in America.

BRANDON JOHNSON, CHICAGO DEMOCRATIC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Months ago, they said they didn't know who I was. Well, if you didn't know, now you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And Johnson obviously is excited and talked about wanting to end the tale of two Cities, so to speak in Chicago, where one side of the city gets investment and other side of the city not as much. Now, we're headed to a runoff because neither candidate as expected got that 50 percent threshold. So, it'll be April 4 that we figured out who the next mayor of Chicago will be.

BLACKWELL: All right, a lot of themes in those two candidates and in that race. Omar Jimenez, thank you so much.

Joining us now, Margaret Talev. She's a senior contributor at Axios. And CNN political commentator Alice Stewart, a Republican strategist. Welcome to you both. Margaret, let me start with you. If we have it, let's put those percentages up for the race last night. Mayor Lightfoot not only did not advance to the runoff, she came in at about half of the percentage of the top finisher here who focused a lot, Margaret, on violent crime. What's the message beyond Chicago?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Victor, there is a national message and national warning to hear of voters -- the way voters decide whether their democracies are working for them depends heavily on whether they feel safe at home and that depends heavily on how they perceive crime. So, crime is a potential real problem for Democrats running for mayor, running for statewide office seeking national office now and in the next couple of years.

I think this is a combination of two stories though because if you look at the mayor's results, it was the challenger further to her left if you take Mr. Johnson -- Commissioner Johnson's percentage and hers, that roughly equals the front runners, Mr. Vallas. And so, what you really see is sort of a split decision here.

And maybe one of the lessons is, if you're -- if you're going to run and you're a Democrat, don't get crosswise with the teachers' union. You've got a candidate here who not only faced blowback from crime and from all of the COVID hangovers, but someone who was ultimately seen as an out-of-towner, with no core base clash with the teachers' union, and had a vote split by the candidate to her left. So, that plus crime, I think, made for a very, very tough road.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, that clash with the teachers' union became a national headline repeatedly because Chicago is one of the last major cities to open their schools during the pandemic. Alice, how do you see Republicans if at all responding to this? And perhaps is there a way they use this to their advantage?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Bianna, look at that. 17 percent for the incumbent mayor is a resounding signal from voters in the Windy City that her policies were a complete failure for them. And the main issue is safety. Look, crime has been up 41 percent in the last year under her leadership. There's a lot of trickle-down effects from rising crime.

[14:25:02]

You have civil unrest, you have fears of public safety, and also her -- the economic impact of this. And we had large corporations exiting Chicago for other cities and states because they said they had difficult time recruiting top talent, fearing to come to Chicago because of the safety impact, not to mention her policies dealing with the economy and how she dealt with COVID had a tremendous economic impact on the city. That also is another factor that voters said it is time for new leadership.

And we're also seeing these two candidates that are going to run for reelection. This is going to be a very hotly contested race. But more than anything, Republicans can take away from this. When you have policies that make people feel as though they are not safe and it impacts the economy, you cannot recruit top talent to the cities. That's a winning message for Republicans moving forward, focusing on crime and the economy, and education is a good way to look to 2024.

BLACKWELL: Alice, Republicans ran especially in the House on the trinity of crime, the border, and inflation. Where's the crime legislation? Where -- who is the big city Republican mayor who's getting it right? I mean, we hear a lot of Republicans say that Democrats are -- these Democrat-led cities are we seeing so much crime. Who's getting it right? Where's the legislation focused on that, Alice?

STEWART: The main focus, Victor, is on supporting police. And we're seeing that at the state level and the city level across the country, supporting the police making sure they have the resources and the necessary training they need in order to get the job done. And look, to make this work, this is a bipartisan effort. Republicans and Democrats working together to help the police respond to crime, respond to the community concerns, and making sure that the tools and talents are there in place unnecessary.

While I know that not all Democrats supported the defund the police idea, some did, and that was there -- that had a detrimental impact on many Democrats moving forward. And the key takeaway is to support the police the best that they possibly can and make sure that those that are in these cities, whether it's Chicago, whether it is New York, or what city, that there are consequences for criminal activity and the Democratic soft on crime policies do not work.

GOLODRYGA: Margaret, let me ask you about CNN reporting here in interviews with roughly two dozen members of the so-called extreme MAGA wing of the Republican Party, and these are people who were very close to the Trump administration at the time. And question as to whether they're ready to support and throw their support behind the former president. They're not quite there yet. What do you make of this?

TALEV: Yes, you're right. They're not there. And look, Speaker McCarthy is not engaging on his preferences right now. The head of the Freedom Caucus is saying I've got a lot of other stuff that's keeping me occupied. Some really good reporting there from CNN, but I think what's happening is two things

One is that you're seeing real concerns inside the right flank of the caucus that if he emerged as the nominee that Donald Trump might have a harder time winning a general election than a different GOP nominee in 2024. The other is that there's just a lot of enthusiasm around Governor DeSantis from Florida from that section of the base and they really want to see whether he would be as strong as a declared candidate who was a little bit wrote tested as he looks right now as this candidate in waiting and as Florida's governor. So, you saw Freedom Caucus members go down to Florida, spend some time with him, and come back saying they were excited about that.

And just anecdotally, I have a good friend who travels to Florida several times a year for a family. And one of her sort of political barometers is a landholder on -- off of one of the major roadways who always has property festooned with Trump posters and they change every couple of years depending on the slogan or the time of the election cycle. She just got back from Florida and those signs were replaced by DeSantis flags and slogans.

GOLODRYGA: Those posters and flags, perhaps a political Bellwether. Margaret Talev, thank you so much. Alice Stewart, thank you as well.

BLACKWELL: Intel agencies say that they cannot link any cases of the mysterious ailment dubbed Havana syndrome to any foreign enemy. So, who is behind it? We'll talk about it.

GOLODRYGA: Plus, TikTok announces what it considers a major step to limit daily screen time for people under the age of 18. What every parent needs to know? That's next.

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