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Michigan AG: I Was A Target In Plot To Kill Jewish Officials; PA Man Arrested After Allegedly Checking Explosives In His Suitcase; Blinken Meets Lavrov For First Time Since Russia Invaded Ukraine. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 02, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: To be seen by the royal family as a demotion for Andrew, getting him out of this massive grand house as you described it, and into something a little bit more -- a little bit more quaint, if you can call it that. But, Kate Williams, thank you very much for all of that.

KATE WILLIAMS, CNN ROYAL COMMENTATOR & HISTORIAN: Thank you so much.

PHILLIP: And that does it for me here on the NEWSROOM. Thank you for joining us. But don't go anywhere yet. We have much more news right now on CNN.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Bianna Golodryga. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

Michigan's Attorney General says that she was one of the intended victims in an alleged plot to kill "anyone that is Jewish in the Michigan government." Those words are from a man now in federal custody, according to an affidavit. His first court appearance was Wednesday on the charges of making threats against state lines.

GOLODRYGA: Attorney General Dana Nessel tweeted. The FBI has confirmed I was a target of the heavily armed defendant in this matter. It is my sincere hope that the federal authorities take this offense just as seriously as my hate crimes and domestic terrorism unit take plots to murder elected officials. An FBI agent detailed in a court filing that the defendant's mother said he has three handguns, a 12-gauge shotgun, and two hunting rifles, one of which is an M1A military-style weapon.

CNN's Polo Sandoval has been following this developing story for us. So, what more do we learn about him?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, a lot that we've learned we've actually seen on the Twitter page that federal prosecutor says directly linked to Jack Eugene Carpenter III, the suspect in this case. And the messages on there are not just anti-Semitic, they are certainly unhinged and quite alarming, especially this tweet that federal investigators saw back in mid-February, February 17 to be exact. And this is what initially raised some of those red flags if we could show viewers what he allegedly wrote, including that he would "carry out the punishment of death of anyone that is Jewish in Michigan's government."

Well, the very next day, the FBI's National Threat Operations Center basically relaying this information to FBI agents in Detroit, who then worked with Michigan State authorities. It turns out we're actually investigating him. In fact, he did have a history. When you -- when you look back at Carpenters' history, there's a previous arrest for assault in December, also had a protection order that was still outstanding against him.

And then what perhaps escalated this from disturbing to concerning was that he had at least three handguns that were registered in his name of the state of Michigan. So, they spoke to the suspect's mother who, with her help, they were able to track him down in Texas where according to our colleague, Josh Campbell, they were able to arrest him the day after.

And it was during those interrogations according to justice reporting, that he would -- he specifically named Michigan's Attorney General. The FBI then quickly alerting her and that's what brings us to today, two weeks later as this investigation is still ongoing. But it certainly paints a picture of a very disturbed individual, according to authorities. But nonetheless, authorities saw him as a threat and that's why they basically sprang into action, taking him into custody within a day. And stopping what could have been a tragedy in Michigan.

GOLODRYGA: Yes

SANDOVAL: Obviously, very familiar with a threat of political violence. We saw that back in 2020 with the failed kidnapping attempt at the governor.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Several of these occurrences in Michigan.

SANDOVAL: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Polo Sandoval, thank you for the reporting.

SANDOVAL: Thanks, guys.

BLACKWELL: George Selim is the Senior Vice President for National Affairs at the Anti-Defamation League. He's also a former official at the Department of Homeland Security. George, good to see you.

Polo mentioned that we, of course, have seen things like this before in Michigan. I read earlier that Michigan is among the highest states in the country for occurrences of anti-Semitic incidents. I want to have a broader conversation but according to the ADL, why is that?

GEORGE SELIM, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT FOR NATIONAL AFFAIRS, ANTI- DEFAMATION LEAGUE: So, thank you for the question. What we see here is really a pattern and practice of an increase of anti-Semitic incidents, not just in the Midwestern states like Michigan, but really, Victor, across the country. Calendar year 2021 was the highest year on record in nearly the past 40 years that ADL has been tracking, recording, and monitoring incidents of anti-Semitism across the United States. So, what we have here is the story that we're talking about on the air today, in the context of really historic highs of anti-Semitic incidents, both in Michigan and across the country.

GOLODRYGA: As someone who worked for the Department of Homeland Security, I'm curious to get your thoughts about whether or not you think authorities are handling this at the level that they should be and whether they have enough resources in not just this threat, but obviously the increased threat that we've seen throughout the country.

SELIM: One of the things that the federal government learned in my time with the Department of Justice, Homeland Security, and serving on the White House National Security Council staff is that the business of Homeland Security or national security isn't just that of the federal government role alone.

[14:05:09]

It's really a public-private partnership in many ways. And that's really part of the mission and function of the ADL as a non- governmental organization, along with a large network of academics and non-governmental NGOs, and researchers who really track and monitor these types of issues, both across the real world and on social media channels.

And so, the public-private nature of threat detection and mitigation can't just be the job of the federal government alone. It's really this public-private sector partnership of both public sector entities, nongovernmental organizations like ours, as well as most importantly, with social media technology companies to alert to the threats that they're seeing on their platforms.

BLACKWELL: George, one of the reasons that we wanted to have you on is because there is this new counter-violent extremism task force that you're heading up, coordinating government and partnerships to prevent violent extremism, not to counter once they happen or to prosecute once they discover but to prevent the radicalization. How is that? What's the formula there?

SELIM: Sure, thanks for that question. Just to clarify, that's a role I previously held in the Obama administration. But the work of countering violent extremism really began in the -- in the early parts of the Bush administration when the federal government really looked across the board and said, how do we prevent individuals from being radicalized by a certain type of ideology? In the post-9/11 landscape, it was radical Islamist ideology. And in the threat landscape today in the homeland, it's of a domestic nature across the ideological spectrum.

So, the work of countering extremism or preventing targeted violence or ideologically motivated attacks, the work that I've been applying in my time, both in the federal government previously and outside of government now is really one that brings community and the federal government and state and local public safety and public security officials together. That's really the only way that we can commit -- keep our community safe. I can share with you all on this call today that ADL has a long- standing close partnership with the FBI. We've been in touch with them on this specific instance of threat reporting. And it's really these types of public-private partnerships that need to continue to be developed and expanded nationwide.

GOLODRYGA: I know you said that the onus is not on just the federal government. But to go back to my previous question about whether enough is being done. It really stems from the tweet that we read from the attorney general where she said it is my sincere hope that the federal authorities take this offense just as seriously as my hate crimes and domestic terrorism units take plots to murder elected officials. So, in your view, and going off of this specific tweet, is this being held at the same level as anti-Semitic attacks that we're seeing are and threats throughout the country?

SELIM: I think there's two ways to answer that question. The level of seriousness and focus out of this FBI and this Justice Department. I can make firsthand attestation that the level of seriousness is there.

What I can say that more work needs to be done on is on the size and scale of resources across the federal government, at the Department of Homeland Security, FBI, the Department of Justice. The size and scale of programs and resources that are being devoted to preventing and intervening in ideologically motivated violence needs to increase. We've been on that trend to increase those resources for the past 10- plus years but that acceleration of resources needs to continue at a much quicker pace.

GOLODRYGA: All right. George Selim, thank you.

BLACKWELL: A man in Pennsylvania just had his first court appearance after allegedly trying to take explosives onto an Orlando-bound flight on Monday. Police say this man, Marc Muffley, checked a suitcase at Lehigh Valley International Airport where a device was detected during routine security screening. And out of an abundance of caution, the immediate area of the airport was evacuated.

GOLODRYGA: TSA agents then page Muffley over the airport intercom system and asked him to report to the airport security desk but did -- he did not show up. Soon after, security cameras allegedly caught Muffley leaving the airport. He was then arrested at his home.

CNN's Danny Freeman is following the story for us. So, Danny, what more are we learning about these developments?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, so as you just said, that first court appearance just wrapped up. We're going to get you some of that information in just a moment. But I wanted to tell you what we know so far about the suspect, where it comes from, and perhaps give us some clues into how this all happened.

So, we're talking about Marc Muffley, as you said. He's a 40-year-old man from Lansford, Pennsylvania. It's about less than an hour northwest of where we are at Lehigh International -- Lehigh Valley International Airport. [14:10:06]

And the FBI says as you said, that he tried to check a bag on Monday morning right here at this airport that contained explosives. This is what prosecutors and the criminal complaint says. But, of course, that bag did not get far. TSA screeners were able to catch that bag. And they found in this bag along with the FBI bomb technicians that were on-scene powder consistent with "commercial-grade fireworks," a can of butane, a lighter, a pipe with white residue on it, a wireless drill, and two outlets taped together.

Now as you said, the bag actually had a luggage tag on it because it was being checked so folks at TSA knew the name of the suspect Mr. Muffley. They were looking for it. They called his name on the intercom. But then security cameras showed Mr. Muffley leaving after that name was called out. But the FBI was able to get his name, get his address up in Lansford and apprehend him that same night on Monday.

Now, as I said, the hearing just wrapped up -- the first court appearance. There was a lot of back and forth between the prosecution and between the suspect's defense attorney over the specific charges. Ultimately, they were approved by the judge, and they were arguing over the tension as well. I'll give that up that as soon as we have it because our people are inside watching that feed as we speak.

But the charges that this man is facing are possessing an explosive in an airport and attempting to place an explosive on a plane. Again, this is just wrapping up, very developing at this moment. We'll give you the latest as soon as we have it. Back to you.

BLACKWELL: Danny Freeman for us there, thanks so much. Let's turn now to John Miller, CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst. There are still so many things that we're going to learn, as Danny has said, but your first takeaway from what we know so far.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, the good news is the system work which is he checked the bag, they put it through the sniffer machine and the machine lit up and said possible explosives. And, Victor, you know, they get these false positives all the time. It can wear you down. But you know, they went into the suitcase, they don't see anything, they go into the lining, and then they discover you know, there is this kind of hockey puck size wax paper with black powder inside and a fuse. And then they start paging the owner of that bag.

I think the sign, Bianna, is once you check your bag where you have explosive powder, flash powder, and black powder together, you know, wrapped up in a package and they started calling your name, there's two things you can do. One of them is you can report to where the bags are and say that's mine, or the other is you can run out of the airport. So, when he does that, suspicion obviously went up.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: And they later found him at his home and arrested him. Did this explosive pose any risk to the airport itself?

MILLER: So, it certainly would have to the people around it had it gone off but more importantly to the aircraft. It would have gone in the cargo hold. Now, there was no initiator that involved a command detonator or a timer that it was set to go off with.

But we're talking about explosives on an airplane that are sensitive to friction, to heat, to impact. It's basically a hobby fuse tied to a quick match. And if something set that off, you don't want basically the contents -- think of a firework that we see on the Fourth of July, a commercial-grade firework. You don't want that going off in the cargo hold of a plane that you're flying on. So, it's extraordinarily dangerous.

BLACKWELL: Does this appear to be a bungled attempt to take a bomb that could be detonated on this plane, or did he have the ingredients but they weren't compiled in a way that they could be detonated?

MILLER: Well, they were compiled in a way that they could be donated.

BLACKWELL: OK.

MILLER: And that's why this is so serious. But let's look at the two possibilities as you frame them, which is one, was this a test run to see can I get a bomb on this plane? So, the next time he travels, he uses the same system because it succeeded. If that was the case, this is a failure. And they've been going back through monthly background contacts, everything to determine if is there any connection to some group. They haven't found that.

Let's go on the far other direction, which is he's had a lot of contact with the local police, a lot of run-ins over the years. They know him. He's a local character. Is he going to Florida bringing his dismantled firework that they're going to set off somewhere along with his pipe that has residue in the bottom, a big can, a butane, and a lighter?

So, it seems to fit into the -- I mean, they'll do the tests on that but that's kind of more in the drug realm. And this is more in the fireworks realm. Unfortunately, it's in the dangerous realm.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

MILLER: And in the illegal realm.

GOLODRYGA: And airport screenings, as we know can be tedious, right? But this is one another example of why they're so important.

MILLER: Well, if you had any idea what the TSA -- the TSA, for all of our viewers, you can subscribe to their weekly e-mail where they show a picture of everything that they collected.

GOLODRYGA: Of everything that they collect, yes.

MILLER: You know, in the course of that week -- (INAUDIBLE)

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GOLODRYGA: It's jaw-dropping.

MILLER: It is.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. John Miller, thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: Well. Thank you, John.

MILLER: Thanks.

GOLODRYGA: Well, a surprise meeting between Secretary of State Tony Blinken and his Russian counterpart. It is the first face-to-face since Russia began its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. What the two leaders discussed? That's next.

BLACKWELL: And rail workers helping with cleanup at the site of the Ohio train derailment complained of headaches and nausea days after the incident. Ahead, we'll speak with the -- a union leader about this troubling development. Stay with us.

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GOLODRYGA: We're going to take you live now to the Capitol Hill where the president's meeting with Senate Democrats. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you think to visit Ohio to (INAUDIBLE) the situation there on the train derailment (INAUDIBLE)

BIDEN: I spoke with every official in Ohio, Democrat, and Republican on a continuous basis as in Pennsylvania. I laid out a little bit in there when I'm thinking the answers altogether, and we will be implemented an awful lot to the legislature here and I will be on until next week.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: All right, that's President Biden there, of course, with the Majority Leader Chuck Schumer after a meeting with Senate Democrats to discuss the path forward on the debt ceiling. We heard from the president there just a few words about his commitment to East Palestine after that train derailment, saying he spoke with officials in the state of Ohio and also in Pennsylvania.

[14:20:06]

You see the president there also speaking with other members of the Democratic caucus there. So, we will, of course, bring you any headlines from this meeting that happened or just happened just a few moments ago. GOLODRYGA: Meantime, overseas, U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken had a brief and unplanned meeting today with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov. It took part -- it took part on the sidelines of the G20 meeting in New Delhi, India, and marks the first conversation between the two since Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I told the foreign minister what I and so many others said last week at the United Nations and what so many G20 foreign ministers said today, end this war of aggression, engage in meaningful diplomacy that can produce a just and durable peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN national security correspondent Kylie Atwood is with us now. What more do we know about this conversation?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen. It was quite a surprise meeting because just yesterday, the secretary of state was asked if he was going to meet Lavrov when they were both in the same place at the same time in India for this foreign ministers meeting, and he said that there was no plans to do so. So, the fact that it happened, does demonstrate that it came together sort of last minute here. According to a senior State Department official, it lasted for about 10 minutes on the sidelines of these meetings in India.

And we know that the secretary of state really focused on the Ukraine war, urging Russia to end its war of aggression. The secretary of state said he told Lavrov that. And he also reiterated, of course, U.S. support for Ukraine.

And then when it comes to New START, that single-lasting arms control agreement between the U.S. and Russia that Russia has said it's no longer going to be participating in, the secretary of state urged Foreign Minister Lavrov to reverse that decision, talking about how the United States and Russia have really engaged on arms control previously during tough times even during the Cold War. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLINKEN: Lastly, I spoke briefly with Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov on the margins of our G20 meeting today. I urged Russia to reverse its irresponsible decision and return to implementing the New START Treaty, which places verifiable limits on the nuclear arsenals of the United States and the Russian Federation. Mutual compliance is in the interest of both our countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: Now, a senior State Department official after this meeting, however, said that there is no signal that there's going to be any change in the near term in terms of the number of issues that Blinken and Lavrov spoke about following this meeting. So, it signals is this really wasn't a diplomatic breakthrough, but it is quite significant that the secretary of state was able to deliver these messages in person to the Russian foreign minister.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. I guess some diplomacy is better than none. Kylie, we're also learning that Blinken said the U.S. has put forward a serious proposal to Russia regarding the wrongfully detained American citizen Paul Whelan. What can you tell us about that?

ATWOOD: Yes. So, that's really interesting because we've previously heard U.S. officials talk about ongoing negotiations with Russia to try and get out Paul Whelan as an American who's wrongfully detained in Russia for more than four years now. But with the secretary of state talking about a serious proposal, it indicates that there's an actual offer that the United States has put on the table. It's not just conversations about what they could do. It's an actual offer that the United States that Blinken said he is urging the Russians to accept.

So, we're obviously trying to figure out a little bit more details about what that offer is, but I do think it's important to note that Paul Whelan has been left behind multiple times now when there have been other prisoner swaps for Trevor Reed early last year, for Brittney Griner late last year. He has remained in prison. So, of course, his family is welcoming the news that the secretary of state took it upon himself to raise this in this short interaction that he had with the Russian foreign minister, guys.

GOLODRYGA: It shows that -- it shows that it is still a top priority for the administration to bring him home. Kylie Atwood, thank you.

Well, Blinken's warning to Lavrov that Washington would support Ukraine for as long as it takes comes at a critical time in the war, especially as China contemplates providing Russia with lethal aid according to U.S. intelligence sources. Alex Gabuev is a senior fellow at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Alex, great to have you on. Not only are you an expert on everything, Russia, but also China. And I know you are skeptical at this point that China would provide Russia with lethal aid, why?

ALEXANDER GABUEV, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: I think that China tries to portray itself as a nuclear player. It states not only in defense but on a Great Wall of China, which is pretty comfortable. It put out a peace proposal which is not an accurate roadmap. You cannot build peace on that.

But that at least portrays China as the only UN Security Council permanent member that is neither engaged in an act of aggression like Russia, nor is it providing weapons to the other party of the war that the United States, UK, and France are doing. And if China actually delivers some weapons to Russia, that will definitely tarnish this very well-calibrated position.

[14:25:19] GOLODRYGA: Yes. You also go on to say a worst-case scenario would be if China delivers these weapons or use these weapons as leverage so that the United States wouldn't be inclined to provide weapons for Taiwan. How big of a game changer would that be if that took place?

GABUEV: I think that China indeed is unhappy that what China precedes its red lines on Taiwan issue are crossed all the time. It proceeds that the -- you know as one-China policy is being eroded and deliveries of weapons is something very sensitive. So, if China believes that in this compartmentalized nature of the U.S. foreign policy, the U.S. moves on China's red lines with regard to Taiwan and weapons sales, but then China can counter that by providing Russia with lethal weapons, like drones or artillery shells.

That will be very dangerous because I don't perceive that the U.S. will back down and not provide military aid to Taiwan. So, we will have basically a proxy war in Ukraine where both superpowers China and the U.S. will provide weapons to the parties at war.

GOLODRYGA: Well, the president has already said as much. He said that if China invaded Taiwan that the U.S. would come to their aid militarily. He didn't go that far, even with Ukraine. Can you give us a state of what the true nature is in the relationship between Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping right now? I know on the surface, they continue with their limitless friendship and there's a planned summit between Xi and Putin soon. But what is going on behind the scenes? Are they still as close?

GABUEV: They are pretty close. And then this personal closeness really doesn't matter. It's really crude pragmatism on both sides. There is no love lost between Russia and China. The relationship is mutually beneficial and increasingly asymmetrical. That was true before the war. Now the asymmetry is on steroids and it favors China.

China is ultimately the senior partner in this relationship. And Vladimir Putin is ready to accept this because he's blindly obsessed with this war. War in Ukraine is organizing principle of his foreign domestic economic policy. As long as the junior partner of China delivers to him means to continue this war, he's ready to play game would Beijing.

GOLODRYGA: Has the last year in Russia's poor performance and the way that NATO and Western allies have been able to come together united front. Has that changed Xi's calculus at all in terms of Taiwan and his sights on Taiwan, especially considering what's happening domestically and economically with the country as well?

GABUEV: I think that China definitely learns lessons from this and will continue to learn lessons as Bill Burns, the Director of CIA said Xi Jinping has put a goalpost of 2027 for his army to be ready to take Taiwan. That's not a political decision. That's more of a milestone in military buildup.

But the lessons China takes home are never be overconfident in your military. You need to go deep and study its readiness. Never underestimate the readiness of the Western alliances with the U.S. at its core to stand up and defend partners. And then never overestimate your ability to be a fortress China when it comes to supply chain and your invincibility of your financial system.

If there are crippling economic sanctions, China will be hit very hard. That doesn't mean that China makes a kind of conclusion that it shouldn't use military means to occupy Taiwan if China's line is crossed.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

GABUEV: It may probably consider that Vladimir Putin is dumb. And Russia was very stupid in the -- and sloppy in the way it executed its invasion, and China can do better.

GOLODRYGA: We should note that China's military hasn't been tested in a real massive war in decades either. Alexander Gabuev, thank you so much. Great to have you on.

GABUEV: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: All right. This just in. The House Ethics Committee announced that it is officially moving forward with a probe into battle -- embattled Congressman George Santos's activities. We are live on the Hill with an update just ahead.

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