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President Biden Meets With German Chancellor; Alex Murdaugh Sentenced to Life in Prison; Interview With National Security Council Coordinator For Strategic Communications John Kirby. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 03, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Abby Phillip in Washington.

Disgraced South Carolina lawyer and now convicted killer Alex Murdaugh will spend the rest of his life in prison. A judge handing down that sentence this morning after a jury needed less than three hours to find Murdaugh guilty of murdering his wife, Maggie, and his son Paul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE CLIFTON NEWMAN, SOUTH CAROLINA CIRCUIT COURT: In the murder of your wife, Maggie Murdaugh, I sentence you for a term of the rest of your natural life.

For the murder of Paul Murdaugh, whom you probably loved so much, I sentence you to prison for murdering him for the rest of your natural life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Judge Clifton Newman notably getting very personal before handing down that sentence, talking about knowing Alex Murdaugh and his family, and that Alex was a well-respected and gregarious person, but the judge also made it clear that he agreed with that guilty verdict handed down by the jury.

He accused Murdaugh of duplicitous conduct in the courtroom and on the witness stand. And he said the lies finally caught up with him.

CNN's Dianne Gallagher is here outside of the courthouse in Walterboro, South Carolina.

Dianne, it was really, the last just 24 hours here, very astonishing moments inside of that courtroom, led this morning by the judge himself.

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Abby, I don't know if people exhaled out here outside of the courthouse watching until told judge Clifton Newman finished speaking directly to Alex Murdaugh, who answered him when he was asked questions, but mostly, because he has to, just sat there and listened. It was a dressing down like I have never seen, going through the

family history of the Murdaughs, letting Alex know that he had to remove that portrait of Alex Murdaugh's grandfather from that very courtroom where he was just convicted of murder, so he could have a fair trial, letting him know about the power his family has, and trying to understand how he could do something like this.

Judge Clifton Newman handed down those consecutive life sentences to Alex Murdaugh while expressing disappointment and bewilderment. Abby, he is an extremely respected judge here in South Carolina. He's had a very measured tone throughout the past six weeks.

But he went for it with Alex today, telling him that he knows that he has got to feel something when he closes his eyes at night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWMAN: And I know you have to see Paul and Maggie during the nighttimes when you're attempting to go to sleep. I'm sure they come and visit you, I'm sure.

ALEX MURDAUGH, CONVICTED MURDERER: All day and every night.

NEWMAN: Yes, I'm sure. And they will continue to do so, and -- and reflect on the last time they looked you in the eyes, as you look the jury in the eyes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: And there was so much discussion about that.

This trial likely ended the way, Abby, that it only could, which was with Alex Murdaugh, not his attorneys, addressing the court in that plea before the sentencing, just like he took the stand in his own defense to try and explain why his voice was identified by so many people on that video found on his murdered son Paul's phone six months after he was killed, but it was recorded moments before they say Paul was murdered at those dog kennels, calling for their dog Bubba, who had a chicken in his mouth.

According to a juror, it was that video, in an interview with ABC, it was that video that sealed the deal for that juror, letting him know there's no other way that anybody but Alex could have done that.

Alex professed his innocence once more today in court. The judge, though, brought up the opioid addiction, saying maybe you say you didn't do it, but maybe you aren't who you think you are either.

[13:05:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MURDAUGH: I respect this court, but I'm innocent. I would never, under any circumstances, hurt my wife, Maggie, and I would never under any circumstances hurt my son Paul Paul. NEWMAN: Well, and it might not have been you. It might have been the monster you become when you take 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 opioid pills. Maybe you have become another person.

I have seen that before. The person standing before me was not the person who committed the crime, though it's the same individual.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: Just a very sobering moment. There were no victim impact statements made this morning before sentencing on behalf of Maggie and Paul Murdaugh.

Instead, prosecutor Creighton Waters spoke about them and talked about getting justice for them. This is something that has been very difficult for really everybody in this community to see. There has been so much power in this family. There has been so -- there's so many cases. The judge alluded to that.

There's so many other victims who the judge still has to oversee charges, those financial charges against Alex Murdaugh, and 90 some different charges that he continues to face. I talked to the attorney general this morning, and he said they will still pursue those, even in light of this life sentence that Alex Murdaugh has.

Now, just a few moments ago, Alex Murdaugh's defense attorneys spoke as well. Abby, they say they do plan to file for an appeal within 10 days, a notice of appeal. They maintain that there was just too much reasonable doubt and that they don't think all of the information about the alleged financial crimes of Alex Murdaugh should have been allowed into this trial.

Now, look, he got up on the stand and admitted to them. He admitted to lying. He admitted to stealing. And they say that that maybe prejudiced the jury against him, in the defense's point of view. But, again, Abby, it only took three hours from the time that they were charged for them to come back with a verdict. And according to that juror interview this morning, they had decided what they wanted to do within 45 minutes of first polling each other and having a discussion about it.

PHILLIP: That alone is an extraordinary fact. This trial has gone on for weeks.

GALLAGHER: Yes.

PHILLIP: But the jury didn't really need that much time to come up with their conclusion.

Dianne Gallagher, thank you for all of your work on this story.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: And, this morning, a juror in the trial, as we were just saying, spoke publicly for the first time about Alex, admitting that it was his voice on Paul's dog kennel video from the minutes just before Paul was murdered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: When he said it was him, were you surprised?

CRAIG MOYER, ALEX MURDAUGH JUROR: I was very surprised.

QUESTION: Why?

MOYER: That was his only savior right there. I didn't see any true remorse or any compassion or anything.

QUESTION: Even though he was -- he cried a lot on the stand.

MOYER: He never cried.

QUESTION: He never cried. What do you mean by that?

MOYER: All he did was blow snot.

QUESTION: Did you not see tears?

MOYER: No tears.

QUESTION: How did you know he wasn't crying?

MOYER: Because I saw his eyes. I was this close to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And joining me now is criminal defense attorney Sara Azari and Joey Jackson.

Thanks, both of you, for being here.

Wow, what an extraordinary few days here. The defense just sat down with CNN's Randi Kaye just in the last hour, and she asked him about this pivotal decision to put Murdaugh on the stand in this trial. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM GRIFFIN, ATTORNEY FOR ALEX MURDAUGH: The thinking of it at that point in time is, what is there to lose? They have heard about all of the financial crimes. They really hadn't heard why he committed financial crimes, and they needed to hear about his drug addiction.

By putting him on the stand, I think the jury also got to see his emotions about Maggie and Paul, which were very raw and real. And they were moving. And the jurors were very moved by his testimony. But then the next day, on cross-examination, got to give credit where credit's due. I mean, they clearly painted Alex as a liar who can just look you in the face and lie to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PHILLIP: I mean, look, Jim Griffin, I'm sure, is a very good defense attorney, but it seems like what he's describing is wishful thinking, especially in light of what that juror said.

The tears and the emotion may have backfired. Sara, you can...

SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I'm sorry. I hear you.

Look, Abby, there were really two reasons why we have a defendant testify, to humanize and to explain. He did have to explain things. I was always saying that this is one of those cases where I fear that -- certainly, it's his right. He wants to exercise that right.

[13:10:03]

I think his lawyers have to let him do it. And the problem here is that there were two death knells, the -- not just his testimony, but the admissibility of all of this lying. It really at the end was not about motive. It was about looking people in the eye that he eventually stole from.

He was -- there was no presumption of innocence in this case, Abby. I think these jurors made up their mind way early on, when they realized that he's a con man and a liar. And then his testimony just sort of sealed the deal. And 45 minutes or two hours and 15 minutes, whatever it was, to me, there is no way that there was any analysis in this jury room under the circumstantial evidence instruction, because you're supposed to take every piece of evidence and look at it.

And if there's two inferences to be made, it's supposed to be made in favor of the defendant. There is no analysis here. They had made up their mind. And I'm no longer stunned because I have processed this, but it is absolutely a travesty of justice.

PHILLIP: I want to play what you're referring to here. This is a jury member speaking out about how long those deliberations took. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: When you first got in the room, you took a vote?

MOYER: It was two not guilty, one not sure, and nine guilty.

QUESTION: What was your about vote?

MOYER: Guilty.

And we started deliberating, going through the evidence. And everybody was pretty much talking. And, I don't know, about 45 minutes later, we -- after all our deliberating, and figured it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Joey, are you surprised by that? They went from two not guilties and one unsure to a unanimous guilty verdict in 45 minutes. JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, Abby, I'm not.

Good to be with you and Sara.

And here's why. Of course, the judge everyday instructs the jury after the conclusion of the case that you're not to discuss the case, you're not to render any decisions or conclusions. Having said that, remember that the jurors are there and they're locked into day in and day out. They were there for six weeks. They're not formulating their opinions automatically, even though the judge says don't render the final determination until you deliberate.

So they go into that jury room certainly with an idea as to what they want to do. And they speak about that idea. And it's one thing to have a reasonable doubt. It's another thing to have a doubt that's not founded upon reason, that's not founded upon good judgment, and that has no basis in fact.

And so the way I see it is that the jurors came in there, they listened to all they needed to listen to. It was rehashed. They heard closing arguments, they heard rebuttals, they heard all they needed to hear. And based upon the actual defendant himself and his attempt to get on the stand and to give a rendition of events, which, one do you believe, the first one, the second version...

PHILLIP: Right.

JACKSON: ... him crying, him not crying, him lying to his clients, him lying to us?

And so I think they said, enough is enough. We're done. You're guilty, end of story. And I think that's how it played out.

PHILLIP: And, Sara, we don't have a ton of time left, but I do want to ask you about Judge Newman made that really searing point about the opioid use, and maybe you were a different person in that moment.

The opioid addiction was such a key part of Murdaugh's own testimony. But, again, this may have backfired, it seems to me.

AZARI: Yes.

So, Abby I think you and I talked at length about this and how it's a double-edged sword, right? It was never a defense. Addiction is not a defense to a crime, but it's certainly an explanation for the lying and conning and thieving. And this is exactly what I was saying that, at some point, it's going to turn and backfire.

And this judge weaponized it. He said, well, maybe you didn't kill your wife and son, but the monster in you did, the addict in you did. So, you know -- and to Joey's point that those eggs that we were talking about yesterday, I didn't take those eggs lightly. I had a brownie case.

When jurors bond in that way where they're sharing food for six weeks, and they're really tight and good friends, I always fear that it's pro-prosecution. In my experience, it has been. And so I just think that, also from this juror's interview with ABC earlier, there's a mere presence instruction that was not given in this case, that your mere presence at the crime scene cannot by itself indicate guilt. It's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt.

So, to him, the video alone, even without the lie, was enough to decide verdict in this case. I think he has a strong appeal. I think that if he -- when you take the stand, it sort of locks you into harmless error. But I think he has a lot of other grounds, Fifth Amendment, the admissibility of all the motive evidence.

So we will see where it goes.

PHILLIP: And they do intend to appeal, so we will see where this goes.

Sara, I will always remember those eggs, our canary in the coal mine here for Alex Murdaugh.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: Sara Azari and Joey Jackson, both of you, thanks so much.

JACKSON: Thanks, Abby.

PHILLIP: And the battle for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination is center stage at the annual conservative CPAC gathering.

[13:15:06]

Nikki Haley delivering her big speech right now, and ahead of former President Trump's speech tomorrow. So, will she go after her former boss?

Plus, a high-stakes meeting is coming up very soon over at the White House. President Biden and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz will talk about the way forward in Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: Just minutes from now, President Biden will welcome German Chancellor Olaf Scholz to the White House.

The world has changed a lot since their last face-to-face meeting. Russia has plunged Europe into its largest ground conflict since World War II. Today, the two leaders will discuss now the strategies on how to best help Ukraine in that fight.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is over at the White House.

So, Phil, what's on the agenda today for this discussion?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, Abby, it's interesting.

Over the course of the last year, there's certainly been a geopolitical transformation, but there's also been a transformation led by Chancellor Scholz in terms of the posture, at least rhetorically, and, to some degree, in practice as well, when it comes to defense-related issues in Germany.

[13:20:15]

And I think that's what's so critical here between the one-to-one relationship between Chancellor Scholz and President Biden, which, by all accounts inside the administration, is quite solid and quite productive. And they speak quite often.

And I think it's interesting. When you talk to folks about this meeting, what the expectations are, this is not a meeting of atmospherics. There's no press conference. There's no meeting in the Rose Garden. There's no state dinner, which isn't necessarily a mandatory thing on these visits. It is a substantive meeting, which will have a significant one-on-one component between the two leaders, and it is about continuing, maintaining and expanding on the alliance, and how things are coordinated in terms of assistance to Ukraine going forward

Obviously, this war passing the one-year mark. The alliance between President Biden between his European allies, of which Germany is a critical, if -- one of the most critical components, has been central over the course of the last year, but the tensions over what to provide and when, over very real domestic political issues, very real economic issues that have been driven by Russia's efforts over the course of last year are still significant and to some degree growing.

And I think that's why the importance of these meetings both on the phone and in person is really kind of focused on by U.S. officials, focused on by President Biden.

One other element to keep an eye on, U.S. officials say it won't be the central focus here, but, on Thursday, Chancellor Scholz mentioned and warned China against providing weapons to Ukraine. That's critical. China is Germany's number one trading partner. Obviously, the U.S. has been very blunt about that as well, so some alignment there as well that may come up in the meeting, Abby.

PHILLIP: Yes, I think that is definitely a topic on everyone's mind right now.

Phil Mattingly, thank you very much.

And I want to bring in now Navy Admiral John Kirby. He's the National Security Council coordinator for strategic communications.

Admiral Kirby, good to see you, and thanks for coming on.

The U.S. and Germany obviously have a closely coordinated relationship on military aid to Ukraine. But just a couple of days ago, really, Chancellor Scholz was talking about not putting an end date to this war. I do wonder, is part of the discussion that will happen today between President Biden and Chancellor Scholz about how this war eventually comes to an end? JOHN KIRBY, NSC COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: I can't think of a single conversation that President Biden has had over the course of the last year, certainly over the course of the last several months, with foreign leaders where he hasn't talked about or they haven't wanted to talk about as well how this war ends and when it can end.

We all want it to end immediately. It could end today if Mr. Putin would pull U.S. troops out. That doesn't appear likely right now. We'd like it to end soon. And so do the Ukrainians.

What's really important and what President Biden has stressed with every one of his foreign counterparts is, we have got to make sure that nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine, that, whatever we do in terms of helping President Zelenskyy get to a point where only he can decide he's ready to negotiate, that he can do it on his terms in circumstances that he can tolerate, the Ukrainian people can tolerate, and that, at the end state, it gets to Ukraine being satisfied that their sovereignty is being respected, that their independence is being preserved.

PHILLIP: And one of the things that Ukraine is asking for, as you have been discussing for quite some time, is this issue of U.S. fighter jets.

Will today's discussion include a conversation about a strategy that involves giving those F-16s to Ukraine?

KIRBY: That's not a key part of the agenda. I don't think that there's going to be a long discussion about fighter aircraft.

What there will be is a significant discussion about supporting Ukraine going forward. We all know the weeks and months ahead are going to be critical, as the Russians prepare for spring offensives and the Ukrainians likewise want to prepare to go on the offense and to defend themselves against whatever Russian moves are coming.

We're all focused on giving them the kinds of capabilities that they need. There's another package announced today coming from the United States really about more ammunition for the kinds of artillery and rocket systems that they have already been provided. We want to make sure that we're preparing them for this tough fighting in the weeks and months ahead.

But I would not expected fighter aircraft are going to be a dominant issue today.

PHILLIP: Let's turn to China now, because, as Phil just mentioned just before you came on, this is something that Chancellor Scholz addressed with his Parliament just yesterday.

And President Biden has said, warning China as well, do not give military aid to Ukraine. Is this something that the U.S. and European allies believe is imminent? Is China on the verge now of actually making that decision?

KIRBY: Well, we don't believe they have taken it off the table, Abby.

But we also don't believe that they have made that decision to move forward. And you're starting to hear more and more from not just the United States, but from our allies and partners, that they don't want to see them make that move. We don't believe that it's in China's best interests to want to help Mr. Putin kill more Ukrainians, innocent people who are just trying to live their lives in peace.

[13:25:06]

We don't think that, if China is serious about their standing in the international community, that they should see this as a way forward with respect to their reputation internationally.

Now, obviously, look, this is President Xi's decision to make. He's got to decide where he wants to go on this. But we would like to see China join the rest of the world in condemning this invasion and doing nothing to help Russia continue to fight this war.

In fact, we would obviously love to see China take steps to help Ukraine in terms of their self-defense.

PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, part of that picture is just the economic situation in Russia.

Just recently, at an economic conference in Siberia, one Russian oligarch who opposes the war in Ukraine said that Russia could actually run out of money in the next year and desperately needs foreign investment.

KIRBY: Yes.

PHILLIP: I wonder, do you agree with that assessment?

KIRBY: We think that Mr. Putin has had to take some pretty drastic efforts to prop up his economy.

And if you look at the GDP growth, it shrank a little bit, not by much. And people are pointing to that, like, as if he doesn't have -- there hasn't been any impact on his economy. There has been. And we want to keep the pressure on. We want to make it continually harder for Mr. Putin to prosecute this war.

We know that the export controls and the sanctions are having an impact, for instance, on microelectronics and his ability to continue to manufacture cruise missiles, which is one of the reasons why he's reaching out to a country like -- countries like Iran for drones.

So we know it's had an effect. We're going to keep that pressure on. We don't want to see him profiteer anymore off of oil revenues, for instance. But that means the rest of the world has to also line up behind the price cap and line up behind sanctions enforcement. And this is something that not all nations, including China, have been willing to do.

PHILLIP: And, Admiral Kirby, before you go, Paul Whelan, he's still detained in Russia. Secretary Blinken said he raised it with the Russians in that meeting this week.

KIRBY: Yes.

PHILLIP: But Russia is saying that's a lie. Just your response to that?

KIRBY: Paul Whelan needs to be home with his family and with his friends. He needs to be back in the United States, where he belongs. He has been wrongfully detained.

We're going to keep working to get him released and get him back home. Secretary Blinken absolutely brought it up with Foreign Minister Lavrov, as well as their decision to suspend from the New START Treaty. We are not going to shy away from every opportunity to do what we can to make our case to the Russians and get him home.

PHILLIP: All right, Admiral John Kirby, thank you very much for joining us today.

KIRBY: My pleasure.

PHILLIP: And President Biden is feeling the heat from members of his own party after he sides with Republicans on a D.C. crime bill.

We will have the details next.

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