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NTSB Sending Investigators to Second Train Derailment in Ohio; Dozens Detained After Protest Turns Violent at Cop City in Atlanta; This Week, U.S. Defense Secretary Visits Israel, Egypt and Jordan. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 06, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Thanks for joining us in this CNN Newsroom on this Monday morning. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Today, NTSB investigators heading back to Ohio after another Norfolk Southern train has derailed, this time in Springfield. You see the pictures there. CNN is on the scene with more on concerns after this new crash.

HILL: Also dozens detained after violent protests near a planned police training site, which is known as Cop City, in Atlanta, protesters throwing bricks, rocks at cops, this after setting a construction vehicle on fire. We've got the very latest.

And the battle for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination heating up, will it end up being a showdown between former President Trump and Florida Governor DeSantis? We'll take a look at what's next as they head to Iowa this week.

SCIUTTO: We do begin this hour with the latest on that new Norfolk Southern train derailment in Springfield, Ohio. CNN Correspondent Jason Carroll, he is now on the scene there. I understand, Jason, NTSB investigators, they are going to be heading to the scene today. What do we know about the circumstances of this crash and crucially what the train was carrying? Is there any risk to residents nearby?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, no risk to residents nearby. And Norfolk Southern continues to say that safety their number one priority, but that is a tough sell to the people here in Ohio who have now seen their second derailment in amongst time.

In terms of what happened here, you can take a look. You can see one of the cars still on its side here. NTSB investigators will be out here trying to sort out what happened this go-around.

In terms of this latest development, this derailment happened on Saturday, around 5:00. Video captures the moment that the train actually started to derail. A man caught it on his cell phone, all as it was just starting to happen.

In all, 28 of 200 cars derailed. State officials say that there was not a release of any hazardous materials, however, there were some materials such as propane and ethanol being carried on train, but those particular cars did not derail.

Now, during a briefing yesterday, investigators, state officials, local officials gave some more details in terms of exactly what happened here.

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ASSISTANT CHIEF MATT SMITH, SPRINGFIELD, OHIO FIRE RESCUE DIVISION: After the technical research, they did a recon of the site, found nothing that's spilled onto the ground and nothing -- very minimal material on the actual cars themselves that actually dried very quickly. There is no spillage onto the ground or into the waterways at this time.

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CARROLL: Now, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, as you know, was criticized for what some called his slow response to the derailment in East Palestine, quick to tweet this go-around, saying, again, no hazardous materials release has been reported here.

But, again, this is the second derailment that people here in Ohio have seen, those folks in East Palestine still trying to get their lives back together in terms of that derailment. The NTSB said that was something that could have been prevented. We'll what they say this go-around. Guys, back to you.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Jason, good to have you there on the ground, I appreciate it, thank you.

In a CNN exclusive interview, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg says he was wrong for not going to East Palestine, Ohio, earlier after that toxic train derailment last month.

SCIUTTO: CNN Senior Reporter Isaac Dovere got that exclusive interview with Buttigieg. Isaac, tell us how he explained that decision and what more did he have to say about the response since then?

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Yes, that's right, Jim. He -- I spent some time with Buttigieg last week talking about that. And what he said to me was that he acknowledged that he had gotten the politics of this wrong. He said to me, sometimes people need policy work and sometimes people need performative work to get to this level. You've got to be ready to serve up both.

But he also pointed out that he feels like this is really mostly politics, that the criticism that he's been under is not normal for a transportation secretary. He said he looked at other transportation secretaries and none of them had ever gone to the site of a derailment but did not see how this was maybe going to bubble up with all of the attention that tends to come from him since he is a high-profile political figure.

When I asked him about Donald Trump going and making that one-off event, deliver bottles of water to try to put political pressure on this, he said to me, to see someone who did a lot to try to gut not just rail safety regulations but the EPA, which is the number one thing standing between that community and a total loss of accountability for Norfolk Southern and then show up giving out bottled water and campaign swag?

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So, there's a lot of frustration coming out Buttigieg but also a lot of commitment from his end to saying he is going to see this through, that the process for him is not at all close to finishing. And there is an oversight hearing that will be there but he also wants more regulation, more laws that will be passed through Congress that so far has in the past bunch of years actually stripped some of that back.

SCIUTTO: Isaac Dovere, thanks so much.

DOVERE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Joining us now, J.B. Long, he is the chairman of the union representing Norfolk Southern workers, of the American Rail System Federation of BMWED. Mr. Long, thanks for taking the time this morning.

J.B. LONG, GENERAL CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN RAIL SYSTEM FEDERATION OF BMWED: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: Good to have you on because there's a lot to get through. One piece in the news we have today is that the governor of Pennsylvania announced that Norfolk Southern has committed to paying millions of damages to the western part of that state, $6.5 million to those residents in and around East Palestine. Has the union received any word that any settlements will come your way? Any settlement -- money is being considered to go to the union workers who have responded to this accident.

LONG: No, I have not gotten any word from Norfolk Southern that it is even in the plan.

SCIUTTO: Okay. You have said that members of your teams that have gone to take part in the cleanup have exhibited symptoms, migraines, headaches, difficulty breathing, et cetera. We reached out to Norfolk Southern. They say that they have not received reports of such symptoms. Have you reported those symptoms, those findings to the company itself?

LONG: Yes. We have some meetings, internal meetings, made that clear that we have had members that, as you said, that they've had different types of health issues, as far their breathing, nausea, headaches and so on. They are well aware of that. Many of the members, they -- I guess my opinion is they have not spoken because of fear of retaliation, and that is just my thought. SCIUTTO: That's consistent concern here. There is also the question of whether your union workers were giving the proper personal protective gear, or PPE. What did they get? And did they see others there with better equipment than your own workers, members of your union were supplied with?

LONG: I was told that our workers, some were offered N-95 masks, and that were all that was offered to them. I was getting reports that contractors did have the proper PPEs as far as the canister-type filters, face mask, Tyvek suits and so on.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. I want to ask you because you are talking about a broader issue here in the letter that you sent to the governor of Ohio, Michael DeWine. I'm going to quote one brief section of there where you talk about a new cost-cutting business model, as you described it, precision scheduled railroading or PSR. You say that what this business model really involves is running longer, heavier behemoth trains that the track structures are not necessarily designed to handle. It also involves the concentrated slashing of employees from workforce.

Do you believe that this issue -- this is quite a long train that went off the tracks in East Palestine. Do you believe that this cost- cutting and these changes contributed to that accident?

Oh, we have lost J.B. Long. We're going to try to get him back. We do think he's back.

Mr. Long, did you hear my question there about -- the question as to whether the PSR, cost-cutting, longer trains, job cuts contributed to the accident in East Palestine?

LONG: Yes. The PSR and the precision scheduled railroading, I am not sure if that would have anything to do with what happened in East Palestine. I think legislation needs to be passed to make the railroads a more safe place for the employees and the communities where the trains operate through. But as far as anything dealing with the PSR with this incident, I am not aware.

SCIUTTO: Okay. So, tell me what changes then, because so much attention has been on the response here kind of backwards-looking, right? So, the question is forward-looking, are the steps that you believe, your union believes needs to be made to prevent something like this or make something like this less likely to happen again?

LONG: Absolutely. The unions have -- went to the carriers numerous times throughout the years, voiced their concerns about the PSR. Of course, the PSR has reduced the workforce drastically. And when you don't have as many inspections going on as you previously had, there is always room for failure. So, I think we need to sit down at the table, both the union and the carriers, and try to get some legislation passed in order to make the railroads a safer place.

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SCIUTTO: I do want to thank you, J.B. Long, for joining us this morning. Let's keep up the conversation, because there are still a lot of questions coming forward.

I do want to read a response that we received from Norfolk Southern. They say that Norfolk Southern was on scene immediately after the derailment and coordinated our response with hazardous material professionals who were on site continuously to ensure the work area was safe to enter and the required PPE was utilized, all in addition to the air monitoring that was established within the hour. It's a story we are going to continue to cover. Thanks so much, J.B. Long.

LONG: Thank you.

HILL: A violent morning in Atlanta as protesters attacked the construction site where the city is building a controversial new training facility for law enforcement. So, as you can see, we're about to show you, this is some police surveillance video here. This is some of what officers say was playing out. They say activists threw Molotov cocktails, rocks, bricks, even fireworks. Some of the construction equipment and the trailer, you saw it there actually caught fire.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Nick Valencia is following this story for us from Atlanta. Nick, this has been brewing, we understand, for months. Why are these protests happening?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this has been a target of a robust coalition of activists from really across the country, as well as right here in Atlanta, with some upset as what they perceive as a further militarization of police. There are also climate activists which believe that is proposed $19 million 85-acre facility would negatively impact this wooded area in this site.

But what happened yesterday, according to police, was a coordinated attack by protesters turned agitators, wearing all black, launching large objects, rocks, Molotov cocktails, fireworks. Just listen to what the police had to say about what happened there on Sunday.

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CHIEF DARIN SCHIERBAUM, ATLANTA POLICE: Actions such as this will not be tolerated. When you attack law enforcement officers, when you damage equipment, you are breaking the law. This was a very violent attack that occurred this evening, very violent attack. But this wasn't about a public safety training center. This was about anarchy and this was about the attempt to destabilize.

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VALENCIA: I did just got off of the phone with Kamal Franklin. He is a national activist who has, from the very beginning, been involved in organizing against this proposed facility. And I asked him if they agreed with the characterization of what police say happened. He said flat out no. He said, the language being used by police calling those arrested outside agitators, he says, is meant to separate protesters and meant to criminalize and detach a movement from its homegrown origins.

This happened on the frontend of what protesters were promoting as a week of protests and festivities. He says, we should expect more protests to express the outrage of the community. This facility is being built in an area that is predominantly black and brown. Residents, he says, are angry and upset. They have not been asked if they -- for their input or their involvement.

March 9th, according to him, is being billed as a large day of action, where activist are going to be coming in from outside the Atlanta area to further express their civil disobedience, he says. He indicates that police were the violent ones in this incident over the weekend.

HILL: All right. We know you'll continue to stay on top of it for us, especially as we move forward to Thursday. We'll see what happens there. I appreciate it. Thank you.

VALENCIA: You bet.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, intense fighting around Bakhmut as Russian forces inch closer to capturing the key city in Eastern Ukraine. We're going to discuss Ukraine's urgent request now for a new category of weapons, cluster munitions, highly controversial, that's coming up.

HILL: Former President Trump, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis revving up. Could this be 2024 showdown? We'll dig in a little deeper.

Plus, folks in Southern California still trapped after a week of record snowfall, the situation there at a critical point. We've got more ahead.

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SCIUTTO: This week, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is in the Middle East as tensions in the region, particularly between Israel and the occupied territories, are on the rise.

HILL: Just a short time ago, Austin met with U.S. troops in Jordan, that's after sitting with Jordan's king, where the two discussed the need to restore calm within Palestinian territory.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon with more on the significance of this trip. Natasha, what more do we know about the trip and specifically about these conversations.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Erica. So, Secretary of Defense Austin was in Jordan this morning on a trip to the Middle East that will also take him to Israel, as well as Egypt. And broad message really overall at the trip is about the threat posed to the region by Iran, right? Of course, he is discussing the violence that has broken out in the West Bank, particularly with Jordan, and he will discuss it with Israel. But the overarching theme of the trip, according to defense officials, is trying to show the Middle East that the U.S. does stand in solidarity and support with them against that threat posed by Iran, especially given that new defense partnership between Russia and Iran that is so concerning to U.S. and its allies. Take a listen to what Secretary of Defense Austin told reporters this morning about the help that Russia might now be giving Iran in exchange for its help in Ukraine.

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LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: And we also expect that Russia will provide technology back to Iran in return for some of the help that they've gotten. And, of course, if you're a country in this region, you'd be very concerned about that, and they are. All the countries are very concerned about that.

So, this relationship is very troubling and one that we need to keep an eye on and discourage Iran from that kind of activity going forward.

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BERTRAND: So, obviously, the U.S. watching this growing partnership extremely closely, and that will be the overarching theme of Austin's visit there, guys.

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SCIUTTO: Also today, we understand there is a pair of Ukrainian pilots here in the U.S., in Arizona, for a familiarization event, this regarding F-16 jets. I mean, the question is, does this show that those are actually under consideration, the possibility of U.S. sending F-16s to Ukraine?

BERTRAND: Yes. So, really interesting here, a U.S. military official is actually downplaying the idea that this suggests that the Ukrainians are going to be getting F-16, saying that this was mostly just a familiarization event between the U.S. and the Ukrainians, as well as other countries, to get the Ukrainian pilots more acquainted with U.S. systems, as well as to get them more information on how they can better, of course, their aircraft in Ukraine.

But, ultimately, F-16s still really not on the table, according to a senior U.S. official who testified before Congress last week, that these would be very expensive, very hard to get to the Ukrainians in any reasonable timeframe, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, and very different from the Soviet-era jets they've been flying. Natasha Bertrand, thanks so much.

Happening right now in Ukraine, Russian forces on the brink, it's believed, of capturing the eastern city of Bakhmut, this as Ukrainian defenses in and around the city are trying their best to fend off intense and bloody Russian assaults from both the air and on the ground.

HILL: Joining us now, Washington Post Columnist Josh Rogin, who has a new piece specifically looking at the cluster munitions, and the request of the Ukrainian officials for them. Josh, good to see, as always, this morning. So, we have talked about cluster munitions before, both the Russians and Ukrainians have used them in this war. An investigation by Human Rights Watch finding that Russia did tend to use them more on civilian targets. This is, in many ways, this request, is not new. CNN has reporting from December that the administration was -- knew that it was out there. There is a lot of concern about it. And that concern likely stems from this convention on cluster munitions. More than 100 countries have signed on to that ban. Ukraine and the U.S. have not ratified that, although there have been pledges in this country to do so. Is this really an option at this point?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right, great point, Erica. The issue has come up again now because, as you saw in Bakhmut, the Russians are on the march and this could be the beginning of what could be a very large and manpower-intensive spring and summer offensive, where the Russians are going to be sending hundreds of thousands of bodies into the breach in order to kill and rape and murder Ukrainians.

And the Ukrainians that I met at the Munich Security Conference last month made a very simple argument. They said, these cluster munitions are terrible weapons and using them is a terrible idea, but it's less terrible than having our cities plundered by Russian criminals and rapists and murderers, and therefore we have no choice. In other words, they are so desperate and so outgunned and outmanned that they're turning to these weapons as self-preservation, because they believe this is an existential fight for their lives and for their country.

And for the United States and for Germany, that's not enough. I don't think that the Biden administration, frankly, is going to grant the weapons. I do think that Turkey has been doing it although not admitting to it. And I think Germany is in a similar position. But, yes, this is a war, and this terrible option using these indiscriminate weapons that sometimes kill civilians must be weighed against the alternative, which is that Russian criminals and murderers storm more Ukrainian towns.

SCIUTTO: Well, I mean, the trouble is you could make that argument about a whole host of horrible weapons, right, that Russia has been using with impunity there, thermo-baric weapons, for instance. I mean, why would the U.S., as you say, and as Erica noted, the U.S. did not sign on to this convention but has not used them since 2003, and that's for a reason. Because beyond the fact that they're horrible, they also -- they're left behind, right? A lot of them don't explode on impact. So, for years, someone might step on one.

Why would the U.S. consider giving this category of weapon when they are giving so many other capable systems?

ROGIN: Right. Well, that's a good point, Jim. I think, first of all, it is because the Ukrainians argued that this has a specific military use for this specific military case. In other words, it's not just another indiscriminate weapon. What they are the trying to do is they're trying to force the Russian forces into certain choke points by making certain advance points ineligible for them. So, that's where the cluster munitions might actually have a very limited but very useful effect.

And it depends on us trusting the Ukrainians not to use them indiscriminately but I would argue and that we could trust the Ukrainians because they've shown that they're trustworthy. And if they use them for this limited purposes, so not attack civilian areas, but to just get the Russian forces into a situation where they've got to go the way that they want them to go, that could really be a big help.

And as for the cleanup mission, well, what the Ukrainians told me very simply is that we're going to have to clean up this area anyway, it's largely depopulated anyway. We know where the Russian forces are, so we know that where would heading, there would be less civilians, that doesn't mean no civilians are going to die but that means that we'll clean up the area if we live that long. And if we don't live that long, then cleaning up the area is really not an issue.

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SCIUTTO: Josh Rogin, thanks for digging deep.

ROGIN: Any time.

HILL: Just ahead, the clearest preview yet of what a Trump-DeSantis primary showdown could look like. Stay with us.

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SCIUTTO: This week, the Senate is expected to vote on a resolution that would overturn reforms to Washington, D.C.'s 100-year-old criminal code.

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HILL: Many Democrats oppose overriding the law in principle, arguing local officials should make their own laws free of congressional interference.