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Soon: Mexican Officials Give Update On 4 Kidnapped U.S. Citizens; Russian Forces Surround City Of Bakhmut Amid Intense Fighting; Trump, DeSantis Offer Preview Of Possible White House Showdown. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 06, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00]

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BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Victor Blackwell.

There is an urgent search right now for four Americans who are assaulted and kidnapped in Mexico. And we're just getting this. A new video from the scene. A warning though, it is disturbing.

All right. Look at the video. You can see a man with a gun as people are being loaded into the back of this pickup truck. You also see a second band in a black shirt that you can see him in the video. It appears to be pulling the people into the bed of that truck.

GOLODRYGA: Now, the FBI says unidentified gunman abducted the victims Friday shortly after they drove into the Mexican border town of Matamoros, which is southeast of McAllen, Texas. CNN's Kylie Atwood joins us live from the State Department. So, Kylie Mexican authorities are expected to give an update any minute now. What are you hearing from U.S. officials though?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen. As you guys were saying this happened on Friday in northeast Mexico, its four Americans who are kidnapped and assaulted in this area. Now, according to one U.S. official, this was a case of mistaken identity. The folks that attacked them didn't know who they were, presumably possibly didn't know that they were Americans. But according to that U.S. official, they were visiting that town for medical procedures. And that mirrors what we heard earlier today from Mexican president saying that the Americans were there to buy medicine.

Of course, we're trying to learn more about those circumstances. But it's worth noting that the State Department has warned Americans against traveling to this state in Mexico specifically because of the criminal activity that takes place there, citing kidnappings that have taken place there on the State Department website. So, this is an area that has a history of being very violent and very dangerous for travelers. Now, what we are learning is that Mexico and the U.S. are working tremendously hard to try and figure out what exactly happened here. Where these Americans are? Because we still don't know where they are right now or what their identity is. And we heard earlier today from the U.S. Ambassador to Mexico, Ken Salazar, saying officials from various U.S. law enforcement agencies are working with Mexican authorities at all levels of government to achieve the safe return of our compatriots. Obviously, we're watching that. And the FBI is also offering up to $50,000 for any information that could lead to arrests or the locations of these Americans.

BLACKWELL: Kylie, I know that there are still lots of questions here, so I understand if you don't have the answer to this. But do we know anything about the group that they encountered and who would have been typically in this region that makes it so dangerous?

ATWOOD: We really don't know much about that group. I mean, the most that we know is in that video that you played at the beginning of the -- this, which just you know, presents some images but doesn't tell us anything about who those individuals are. And that is a key question here.

But this is an area that is known, as I was saying, for organized crime. It is an area that has been overtaken as part of the drug war that has happened in Mexico over the last, you know, five to ten years or so. And so, that could presumably play into this. There could -- that could be part of the mistaken identity that they thought these Americans were related to some folks related to, you know, drug trades and the like.

But we really just don't know yet. So, it's speculative to go there. And we'll wait to hear more information from the State Department, from the FBI, from the Mexican government.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And we're expected to hear from the Mexican government as we mentioned any moment now. Kylie Atwood, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Now to Ukraine where after months of fierce and bloody fighting, Russian forces may be on the verge of capturing the eastern city of Bakhmut.

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BLACKWELL: Now, even as fighters that -- Russian fighters surround the city, Ukrainian commanders, they're not withdrawing, and instead calling on President Zelenskyy to send in reinforcements.

GOLODRYGA: CNN's Melissa Bell is in Kyiv, Ukraine. And Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon. Melissa, let's begin with you. We know mercenary fighters from the Wagner group were seen planting their flag there in the eastern part of the city earlier. What can you tell us about that and what it signifies?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is significant, Bianna, because we've managed to geolocate those images that have only come in in the last couple of hours and that show that flag being planted on a World War II monument, a tank to the Soviet recapture of the town from Nazi occupation. And it is about 500 meters from the river. That does suggest that Wagner mercenaries who have been claiming for days to be getting to the town center really actually are this time.

[14:05:05]

And, of course, that is a blow to Ukrainian forces who continue to say tonight we've just been speaking to a -- an aide to President Zelenskyy that nonetheless, the Ukrainian army will continue to fight. Bear in mind that the battles for the town of Bakhmut have been really street-to-street fighting. Extremely deadly. That continues this evening.

The aid is saying we continue to try and defend the center of the town. But our strategic check -- objectives have been met. And that was depleting the Russian war machine and costing Russia -- the Russian side, as many of it -- as many as they could. In fact, NATO is just given an estimate. They believe that it is five Russian soldiers to every Ukrainian soldier that have lost their lives over the course of the last seven months' sieged, Bianna and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Oren, to you now. The Defense Secretary spoke about the significance of a potential loss of Bakhmut. What is he saying?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Or in this case, the lack thereof. Defense secretary Lloyd Austin, who was traveling in the Middle East, spoke about the meaning of Bakhmut. He said -- or rather question its strategic value. Instead, it's more symbolic of the significance of it. And even if it does fall to Russia, it's certainly not the end all be all of the battles in any situation here. Listen to what he said here.

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I would not view that as a -- as an operational or strategic setback. I think it's more of a symbolic value than it is strategic and operational value. What I do see on a daily basis is the Russians continuing to pour in a lot of ill-trained and ill-equipped troops. And those troops are very quickly meeting their demise.

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LIEBERMANN: It is worth pointing out a critical distinction here. The town itself -- the city of Bakhmut I mean has strategic value. But it is an important strategic decision on the part of Ukraine where to fight the Russians.

For now, Ukraine has chosen to do that in the city of Bakhmut, knowing that if they fall back and they still have options to do so to withdraw, to simply fight them further into Ukraine. So, it is Ukraine's decision to keep that fight going in Bakhmut. The cost incredibly high to Russia. And that's why we heard what Melissa just reported that the strategic objective of Bakhmut to deplete Russian resources is being achieved. GOLODRYGA: That we should note the cost is increasingly high for Ukrainians too in terms of manpower and ammunition as well. Oren, one more for you here because we're learning that some Ukrainian pilots have arrived in the U.S. for assessment -- for training. Does this suggest possibly F16s or any fighter jets in Ukraine's future?

LIEBERMANN: It certainly seems to indicate that that window or that -- rather that door has not been closed. What we've learned from three sources briefed on the matter is that there are two Ukrainian pilots in the U.S. being assessed on essentially, their flying abilities in flight simulators that can simulate a number of different U.S. aircraft including crucially, F-16. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has openly asked for F-16s for months now.

The Department of Defense has indicated their position has not changed meaning they don't see it as a priority right now. But this certainly seems to indicate that there are considerations perhaps around that. Those two Ukrainian pilots are in simulators being evaluated, assessed on their abilities to fly aircraft.

Crucially, this isn't flight training. They're not in actual aircraft doing any sort of operations or training. But if this goes well, the sources familiar with the matter of, say, there may be more Ukrainian pilots who come in for the same sort of assessment or evaluation to find out their own flying skills and what it would take for them to learn perhaps Western fighter jets, Bianna and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Oren Liebermann, Melissa Bell, thank you for the reporting. Let's bring it now David Sanger, CNN political and national security analyst, and a White House National Security correspondent for The New York Times. David, good to see you again. Let's start with Bakhmut, and how you interpret what we heard from Secretary Austin to try to downplay the strategic and operational significance of Bakhmut. What did you hear?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So, Victor, this was consistent with what the administration has been saying for a while about Bakhmut. And it's why they wish that the Ukrainians didn't pick this fight, to begin with. Bakhmut is not that strategically important. But once the Ukrainians committed to it, it became a seven- month-long battle just because it was sort of the next town in line. And now it has come to symbolize the question of who can break whom.

You may recall that when President Zelenskyy came to speak before Congress, he brought a battle flag from Bakhmut. He had been there just a day or two before he came to Washington. And so, it has become of greater symbolic importance than strategic importance. And that's a problem when they can't let go. What the U.S. was likely the Ukrainians to do is take the forces that they have been -- they've dedicated there and focus them on the counter-offensive that they're hoping to do in the spring. Their fear is this is a bit of a distraction.

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GOLODRYGA: Yes. And one could argue that the first few months in Ukraine's fight to defend Bakhmut has been successful in the sense that it is depleted Russian forces and their ammunition. It does appear that the tide may be turning here and it is becoming very costly for Ukraine. So, David, how do you wrap your head around the fact that even Ukraine's top military officials, as recently as today, are still recommending that they double down in defense of that city?

SANGER: Yes. It's a little hard for me to understand. I think that you know at this point, they've committed so many forces to it that they don't want to have a significant defeat. If you think about this from the fall forward, it's been a pretty unending series of victories or at least stalemates for the Ukrainians.

The fear that everyone that I talked to has is that at this point, even if the Russians don't have a good strategy and even if they too are running out of ammunition, they can just keep pouring resources and people at these battles in a way that the Ukrainians, they worry about may not. And that just the mass of the Russian force may turn the tide. And they -- the American fears, they don't want the narrative to change that Russia is beginning to take back the land. And I think that's why you heard Secretary Austin trying to be a bit dismissive here of what the importance is.

BLACKWELL: The reporting that there are two Ukrainian pilots in the U.S. for assessment as President Zelenskyy continues to ask for these fighter jets. The Defense Department says that they're still in though that Ukraine doesn't need those right now. But this follows Zelenskyy pointing out the U.S. was no to tanks. So, OK, tanks. No to the Patriot missile systems. OK, you can have the patriot. Is there some geopolitical value in just the public deliberation of the U.S. even if they know at some point, we'll get there but we have to hold off potentially and saying that, yes, we'll give these seemingly escalatory by some resources to Ukraine?

SANGER: You know, Victor, it's a really great question. And Zelenskyy is right. Almost everything he's asked for ultimately has been delivered after the U.S. has said no, then maybe, then, OK, we're doing it. Their concern about the F-16s is twofold. The first is that don't need them right now. But this administration has not done a great job of anticipating what the Ukrainians might need six months or a year into the future.

I think the second big concern is the F-16s when Putin looks at them, he'll say that's something that can reach anywhere in Moscow, any place around Russia, and that the escalation risk here is particularly high, including the possibility of nuclear escalation risk. So, I think that that's a big portion of what they're concerned about at this point.

GOLODRYGA: They're also extremely expensive. David Sanger, thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: The battle for the 2024 GOP presidential nomination was on full display this weekend with former President Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis delivered dueling speeches, giving us a preview of their possible showdown. GOLODRYGA: And a Southwest flight was forced to make an emergency landing as smoke filled the cabin. We'll have details on what caused engine failure just moments after takeoff.

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BLACKWELL: If you are wondering how a 2024 White House showdown between former President Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis may play out, you got a little taste this weekend. Both been delivered pretty fiery speeches with Trump striking a -- an ominous preview of his third presidential bid.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The sinister forces trying to kill America have done everything they can to stop me, to silence you, and to turn this nation into a socialist dumping ground for criminals, junkies, Marxists, thugs, radicals. This is the final battle. They know it. I know it. You know it. Everybody knows that this is it. Either they win, or we win. And if they win, we no longer have a country.

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GOLODRYGA: Meantime, DeSantis, who skipped the conservative's CPAC gathering and instead traveled to the Ronald Reagan Center in California took aim at the nation's so-called wokeness epidemic.

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GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R-FL): I think we've got right on all the key issues. And I think these liberal states have gotten wrong. And why are they getting it wrong? I think it all goes back to ideology. I think it goes back to this woke mind virus that's infected the left and all these other institutions.

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GOLODRYGA: Scott Jennings is CNN's senior political commentator and a former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush. So, Scott, from what you saw there, it seems that Republicans at this point at least -- and we don't even have the notion that DeSantis running yet. I mean, this is just speculation. It's nothing official. But you have the idea of anti-woke versus I am your retribution. Which one do you think is more appealing to Republicans?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think what Trump did at CPAC is certainly appealing to the hardcore Trump fan. That's exactly what they want to hear. And you know, there's a significant number of them in the party. The question is, are there more people who'd rather go in a different direction? And I think there are if you look at some of the polls. So, who can capture that vote share? It looks like DeSantis right now has most of it. There are other people that are trying. I don't think you'd go to the Ronald Reagan Library and speak to 1300 people if you weren't intending to run for president. He just tweeted out a video, in fact, with some of the highlights from his speech.

And what you hear from DeSantis in his repackaging of his speech is a lot more hopeful, optimistic, forward-looking. And what you hear from Trump, of course, is that America is a hellscape. And unless you are like me, it's going to get even worse. And so, what I'm sensing is a really negative campaign and a really, candidly positive campaign from DeSantis. And we'll see -- we'll see which one now wins out.

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BLACKWELL: All right, let's bring in Bakari Sellers, CNN political commentator, and former South Carolina Democratic state representative. Bakari, what stood out to me in part was this straw poll, not scientific but this was Trump's convention. These are Trump people, right? He didn't win two-thirds of the votes there at what has been dubbed as Trump PAC this year. I wonder what you see there and what you heard in the former president's speech this weekend.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that the former president has a clear path to victory in a Republican primary. He doesn't need two-thirds because this car wreck that we're going to watch all the Republican primary with multiple people running. He's only going to need a quarter to a third of them to turn on and support him anyway.

So, as long as he still commands 25 percent of the base or a third of the base, which I don't think anybody's going to argue that he does, he'll be just fine. And I think the president realizes that. And he's an underdog. There are a lot of people who were saying that you know, this may not be his turn, or maybe it's Ron DeSantis's turn.

And we've seen what happened when Donald Trump got counted out before. He beat everybody. He beat all the front runners. He beat everybody. And I think Donald Trump is gearing for fight.

The other thing on the -- on the flip side with Ron DeSantis, I personally think he's more Scott Walker and Icarus than anything else. But he hasn't been -- he hasn't had to take a Trump punch preferably yet. And I think when you get in the ring with Donald Trump, it is a totally different animal. And Donald Trump is going to prove his prowess again.

I think you'll have a rematch of Biden-Trump because Trump only needs a third of the Republican primary voters to win. He doesn't need two- thirds.

GOLODRYGA: Scott, what do you think here? What is it Trump and DeSantis sort of (INAUDIBLE) --

JENNINGS: Yes, I think that he'll --

GOLODRYGA: Go ahead.

JENNINGS: Yes. He'll need more than a third of the vote. I mean, he got in the mid-40s in the 2016 primary. And McCarty's right, the rules do favor a plurality-type candidate with our winner take all system, but a third won't get it done.

And I think DeSantis is far different than anybody who ran in 2016. His favorables are higher. And I think his ability to grow is higher. I think Trump is sitting at about what he's going to get. He dominates the non-college-educated crowd. It's hard to imagine him recovering the college-educated voters. DeSantis dominates the college-educated Republicans and I can easily see how he would grow into Trump's share of the non-college.

So, I think DeSantis has a little bit higher of a ceiling than Bakari may give him credit for. The question is, are these other people going to continue on in the race? I think DeSantis and Trump are occupying almost all the room in the race right now. And these other folks who are interesting, and they're going to be around for a while, but I'll be shocked if most of them actually make it to when we start casting ballots.

And at that point, if DeSantis is in and it comes down to a one-on-one fight, I think he has an excellent chance. I wouldn't count out Donald Trump. I mean, look, he's the establishment. He's run for president three times, serve one term, has all the money, has a cadre of political operatives who are fully dependent upon him for their livelihoods. He is the establishment and taking out the establishment in a campaign is never an easy thing.

BLACKWELL: Bakari, the former president resurrected a lot of the American carnage language that we saw in 2021. We just saw the defeat of Lori Lightfoot in Chicago. Many voters talked about crime being a problem there. I wonder how you interpret President Biden's decision to back the overturning by Republicans or the efforts to overturn the crime legislation out of DC. Now, we know that they're going to try to pull that back but that decision from the president in the context of this -- the issue of crime becoming paramount for some voters.

SELLERS: Crime is going to be a looming issue going into the 2024 election. We know that. And I believe Democrats learned a harsh lesson from 2022. And that you just can't wish it away. You can't just say that people aren't feeling crime.

You can't say that it's not on your doorstep. If you're running for, say, governor of New York, you have closer races than usual. If you misread the emotions in the fields of your constituents and people who are out there. That's first.

Second, I think Joe Biden of all people, this is not someone who is soft on crime. This is not someone who is a defund the police type of candidate. But he's going to have to grapple with it. And I think DC is a microcosm of him trying to grapple with having criminal justice reform that many of us will want, especially in light of Nichols, who just was bludgeoned by Memphis police. And he's going to have to do something to show that he has the foresight to tackle the issue of crime, which is plaguing communities today.

We can go down the list, Victor, of what actually is reform and how you actually tackle crime. The community-based programs, etcetera that are needed mental health advocates in the streets instead of police all the time, we can talk about those things. These are going to be issues that Joe Biden has to grapple with and show he's a visionary. Even at 83 years old or 82 years old, he has to be able to show that he's a visionary, not someone necessarily who's been in the system for four decades. That's going to be difficult for him.

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BLACKWELL: All right. Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, thank you.

SELLERS: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Investigators are back in Ohio after another Norfolk Southern train derails. We'll take you there up next.

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BLACKWELL: There were some terrifying moments on board of Southwest Airlines Flight. Bird strikes caused engine failure. Look at this video from a passenger shows the cabin filling with smoke.

GOLODRYGA: Now, the flight was headed to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, but returned to Havana Cuba where passengers thankfully evacuated safely.