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FBI: 4 Americans Assaulted, Kidnapped In Mexico; Bakhmut Commanders Tell Zelenskyy They Want To Stay And Fight; Trump Seeks To Block Pence From Testifying Before Grand Jury; Investors Brace For Volatility Ahead Of Jobs Report, Powell Testimony. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 06, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:03]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. Good to have you along. I'm Victor Blackwell.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

Right now, the FBI is searching for four Americans who they say were assaulted and kidnapped in Mexico. We're getting new video of the attack into CNN, but we want to warn you it is disturbing. You can see people being loaded into the back of a pickup truck by armed men. It is unclear if they are Americans.

BLACKWELL: According to the FBI shortly after the group of U.S. citizens drove across the border into Matamoros, Friday, their car crashed with another vehicle and they were taken at gunpoint. Authorities believe that they were not the intended targets. The U.S. ambassador to Mexico said an innocent Mexican citizen was also killed.

GOLODRYGA: CNN's Rosa Flores is following this for us.

So Rosa, what are you learning and what do you make of the Mexican president, authorities saying that these were not the intended targets?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The president of Mexico saying that these four Americans were actually in Matamoros, Mexico to purchase medicine, which is something that people from this area in South Texas normally do. They cross to Mexico for just that, for medical procedures.

According to the President of Mexico, he says that these individuals, once they crossed into Mexico, they were caught between two groups that were having some sort of confrontation that that's when the kidnapping happened. Now, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the investigation, telling CNN and confirming that these Americans actually were in Mexico for a medical procedure and this was based on receipts that were found inside the car.

Now according to the FBI, the four Americans crossed over to Mexico on Friday, and they were driving a minivan, a white minivan with North Carolina license plates. Now, that video that we just showed you, it's very raw, it's very dramatic. Be very careful if - in watching this video because it is graphic.

It is not clear whether these are the individuals who are the Americans that are being held at gunpoint and loaded onto a car - onto the bed of a pickup truck. What we can tell you is that the FBI will not confirm that these images are indeed authentic, but CNN has confirmed by - with a US official who knows - who's familiar with the investigation, excuse me, that these are - that this is indeed the scene and also we have geo located those images and indeed this is the scene.

We just don't know whether these are the actual Americans, but you see that it is a very intense scene. The video was very raw. The FBI has announced a $50,000 reward for information leading to the Americans and also for the arrest of the individuals who are responsible.

Now right now there is a press conference that is ongoing in Tamaulipas, Mexico. We're supposed to learn more from authorities there. From a snippet that I was able to hear right before going on air, Bianna and Victor, they were talking about authorities there going through some video, perhaps surveillance cameras and then, of course, that they are committed to finding the individuals who did this and, of course, to locating the missing Americans, Bianna and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Rosa Flores for us there on the story. Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: Well now to Ukraine where after months of fierce and bloody fighting, Russian forces may be on the verge of capturing the eastern city of Bakhmut. Even as Russian fighters surround the city Ukrainian commanders are not withdrawing and instead calling on President Zelenskyy to send in reinforcements.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Alex Marquardt is in eastern Ukraine.

Mercenary fighters from the Wagner Group were seen planting their flag in the eastern part of the city. Tell us about that.

[15:05:00]

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Victor and Bianna.

Well, in the past few days Russian forces have made some progress at encircling Bakhmut, not major, but they have been pressing forward to the north and to the south around the city and then pressing into the city from the East.

We did see that new video from the Wagner Group. Remember, Wagner has been really leading the charge when it comes to Russian forces around Bakhmut. They removed the Ukrainian flag from a monument. They planted their own flag, not the Russian flag, but the Wagner flag and raised their guns in the air.

Meanwhile, we did hear from President Zelenskyy's office tonight saying that they continue to defend their positions, defend the city and they talked about reinforcing their positions. They didn't talk about surrender.

But we have spent a lot of time in that area over the past few days. We've spent a lot of time on the main supply route between the neighboring town of Chasiv Yar and Bakhmut. There's a lot of military traffic on that road. I can tell you that it is getting very difficult to move in and out of Bakhmut. It is getting attacked by Russian forces. They blew up a bridge on that main supply route just a couple of days ago.

We were told by local officials today that military engineers have erected a temporary bridge. So troops are able to move forward and back, people are able to come out and go in, but it is getting much more difficult.

And Victor and Bianna, you're starting to hear this line, despite the fact that no withdrawal has been announced that even if Ukraine were to withdraw, that this would not actually be a strategic victory for Russia, that they will have lost so many men, they would have taken over this city that doesn't actually have any strategic value, that Ukraine is actually - was able to degrade Russian forces and buy time for a planned counter offensive, that at the end of the day, according to us and Ukrainian officials, it would not be that strategic victory for Russia, but it really would be a loss for Ukraine.

They also have lost a lot of men in this fight. They have lost professional soldiers, why - while on the Russian side, so many of the people who have been killed have been convicts in the mercenary group. So at the end of the day, this would be a symbolic victory for Russia, but it really is up for debate how strategic it would be.

One last thing, I did speak with the Deputy Mayor of Bakhmut today who said there are still some 4,000 to 5,000 people who are still in the city. They're trying to get as many out as possible around five to 10 per day, if they're lucky.

The people in there he says they simply don't want to leave because they say they don't know where they would go that they don't have any money. They're scared. They're scared to go out on that road. And he said that his overwhelming feeling when thinking about his city right now is fear and sadness, Victor and Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. This city though is once home to 10s of thousands of Ukrainians.

Alex Marquardt, thank you.

Let's bring in CNN's Oren Liebermann who was at the Pentagon.

The - Oren, the Defense Secretary spoke out about the situation in Bakhmut today. What is he saying?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: This really echoes the point that Alex was making there about the strategic value were lack thereof when it comes to the city of Bakhmut. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin who is now traveling in the Middle East said this wouldn't be some strategic victory for Russia simply because there isn't that much strategic value to Bakhmut, just given its location, it doesn't control the surrounding area or have a look at that gives you a strategic advantage and still Russia is determined to keep throwing as many lives as it needs to at this to take Bakhmut.

But again, Austin saying this wouldn't be a victory listen to what he had to say here.

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LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I would not view that as an operational or strategic setback. I think it's more of a symbolic value than it is strategic and operational value.

What I do see on a daily basis is the Russians continuing to pour in a lot of ill-trained and ill-equipped troops. And those troops are very quickly meeting their demise.

LIEBERMANN: It is worth pointing out that even if the city itself doesn't have strategic value, it is an important decision where you decide, where Ukraine that is, decides to fight Russian forces. Right now Ukraine is making that decision to fight in the city of Bakhmut and that is an important strategic decision. Ukraine realizing if they don't fight them on the line in Bakhmut and they decide at some point to withdraw and to move back towards the west, that'll simply be the new line at which they fight the Russians and that perhaps another reason that they've decided to hold or at least fight for the City of Bakhmut as long as possible as both sides suffer very high losses here, Bianna and Victor.

GOLODRYGA: This is as - we're anticipating an offensive from the Ukrainian sometime this spring as well.

Oren Liebermann, thank you.

General Wesley Clark is a CNN Military Analyst and former NATO Supreme Allied Commander.

General, good to see you. So I'm interested to get your take because we heard from the Defense Secretary today saying that, in his view, a retreat from Bakhmut would not be an operational or strategic setback for the Ukrainians.

[15:10:01]

And yet, at the same day, we're hearing that Ukrainian military officials are advising President Zelenskyy to continue to send in reinforcements to fight for this city. Is that a mistake on their part at this point?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it's really hard to second guess this, Bianna, because we're not there, we don't see the terrain, we don't see the ground.

Now, if you look at Bakhmut and you look west, it's several miles to the next really good defensible terrain, location. And if they get there, if they fall back, they're going to have to hold there. Falling back a withdrawal under pressure is one of the most difficult military operations. You suffer the risk of a catastrophic collapse and big losses when you do this.

So it does make some sense and I can understand the logic of the Ukrainians in wanting to hold where they are, as long as they can. They are inflicting heavy, heavy casualties on the Russians.

What we don't see, Bianna, is we don't see what's behind the initial Russian assault, we don't see the forces in depth arrayed back there. We also don't know how the Ukrainian command is building up its own forces for the counter offensive and how much it can whittle away that force, if necessary, to reinforce in Bakhmut.

So there's a lot of intangibles here and things that we just don't have the information on. I do agree with Secretary Austin. It's probably not a great - from our perspective - operational or tactical loss, but it is a psychological blow and a psychological lift for Moscow. And at some point, these Russian troops have to be defeated, they have to be held, they have to be pushed back and so from the Ukrainian military perspective, to a very understandable position to hold that line ...

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

CLARK: ... as long as we possibly can.

GOLODRYGA: I'm glad you brought up that planned spring counter offensive that everyone's anticipating from the Ukrainians because I'm wondering - listen, from a cost benefit perspective, one could argue that the past few months really did benefit Ukraine to continue fighting in Bakhmut, because you lost a lot of Russian men, a lot of Russian troops and ammunition as well that they invested in their battle for that city.

But at some point, it does turn and you see the reflection upon Ukrainians who are also losing their troops there at an enormous rate and their ammunition. Do you think the longer they maintain this fight for Bakhmut, do you think it could impact whatever counter offensive they're planning?

CLARK: Well, it certainly could, but they have to hold in the east. They do not want to surrender Donbas. If they do, they're just going to have to fight further west. So they've got prepared defensive positions here. They've got stockpiles, they know the routes. This is an advantageous way to hold for as long as they can.

Look, Bianna, there's no doubt that the Russians have superiority of artillery. Secretary Austin has acknowledged that. The thing is they're firing - they have more artillery troops and they're firing more ammunition on a daily basis than the Ukrainians. We just got to get a more help. And until that time, they're going to have a hard time holding, and the Ukrainians are taking casualties. But this is war, and it's their country and they want to hold it.

GOLODRYGA: It is proven to be very difficult to procure the amount of ammunition that that Ukraine is requiring at this point.

Here's how one military expert described Russia's at all costs battle for Bakhmut. Assuming that Ukrainians at some point do retreat, here's what he wrote: "The reality is that if the Russians do capture Bakhmut, they are seizing rubble. It is a town with minimal strategic importance with almost no remaining infrastructure to support an occupying force. That the Russians have invested so much, and its capture speaks volumes about their poor strategy in this war." Would you agree with that assessment?

CLARK: I'm a little bit cautious about that assessment, Bianna, because it is written from the western perspective. If you had 500,000 people and you lost 30,000 people, 40,000 people in a month when you took Bakhmut, you might say that's insignificant if you were a Russian commander.

Now, if you're an American commander or Ukrainian commander, and you're losing 30,000 troops over that piece of ground, that's really significant. But if you're a Russian commander and they're pushing those troops forward and say use them up, use them up, use them up and you got to break through in Bakhmut or you significantly degrade the Ukrainians on balance from the Russian perspective, it might be worth it.

So I think we have to be a little cautious about critiquing Russian tactics from our perspective.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, from Russia's perspective, these troops are expendable. There's talk about another conscription perhaps coming this summer.

General Wesley Clark, thank you so much, always great to have you on and your analysis.

CLARK: Thank you.

[15:15:00]

BLACKWELL: Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers says the U.S. economy is at a risk of Wile E. Coyote moment. You remember the cartoon that chases the Road Runner, you know what it is.

GOLODRYGA: They remember.

BLACKWELL: What he means by that, that's next.

GOLODRYGA: And former President Donald Trump wants to block Mike Pence's grand jury testimony over the 2020 election probe. We'll have details on that up next as well.

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[15:19:24]

GOLODRYGA: Former President Trump has asked a federal judge to block former Vice President Mike Pence from testifying before a federal grand jury, citing executive privilege grounds.

BLACKWELL: Special Counsel Jack Smith, who is investigating the January 6th insurrection and Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 Election has subpoenaed Pence for testimony and documents.

Harry Litman is a former U.S. Attorney.

Harry, we talked about this and the potential that the former president would try to file based on these executive privileges. Remind us how strong of a case, if any, you think he has.

[15:20:00]

HARRY LITMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Very weak. So it's no surprise, it's just to just make sure that he filed it, but this is deja vu all over again. This is not Mike Pence who's doing this speech or debate clause based on his role in the Senate, this is the old executive privilege claim. We need candid communication.

It's already been rejected by the courts for three different reasons. First, Biden has waived it and he will again. Second this is really not Trump when he's berating Pence acting as a president. And third, and finally, and really, there's no way around this, even if there was a valid claim, it would give way to the need for criminal evidence in this kind of investigation that comes all the way back from U.S. versus Richard Nixon.

So this is VOA. The only question is, will he eat up a lot of time. I don't think he will eat up a lot of time, less time anyway than Pence will.

GOLODRYGA: Could we expect an appeal? If this judge doesn't honor this request?

LITMAN: It'll be certain that he'll appeal and then that he'll petition for cert. The Supreme Court has already basically rejected the claim. So yes, the question is, will it be a few weeks to go up and down the federal courts or a few months, but I think it's closer to the weeks. And as I say, Pence won't testify until his claim is resolved and that's more novel will take a little longer. Yes, Trump will appeal all the way and yes he'll lose all the way.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you admittedly a pedestrian question here about the logistics. This was submitted secretly in a sealed proceeding on Friday. Will it remain sealed all the way through the Supreme Court if it gets there and we'll just one day learn that this consideration has been tossed out?

LITMAN: We'll know the ruling, but it will remain sealed because it has to do with the grand jury. And to put it in front of the courts means giving Grand Jury information and there's a law against that. We'll eventually find out if and when anyone's indicted, then the grand jury testimony will come out from under seal. But for now, it's secret except for the bottom line. We'll know about the bottom line

GOLODRYGA: Was this filed just for the sake of filing because as we have covered in detail, the Vice President has already - the former Vice President has already said that he will not testify, so why would the former president care to even spend the time to file this motion?

LITMAN: Oh, I don't think it's much time for him. He just reruns the old - just puts it on the printer again. You're right, though, Bianna, because Pence I think will take longer time. But let's say Pence, for whatever reason folds up shop quickly. It's sort of cost free and in part maybe it's just politics and atmospherics to make it seem like he's fighting all the way.

But he couldn't raise Pence's claim. He's not a member of the Senate. But he can raise executive privilege so he can so he will, that's kind of the Trump motto, right?

GOLODRYGA: Yes, you're right, filing a lawsuit is something that the former president is very, very familiar and comfortable with throughout his years. Harry Litman, thank you.

LITMAN: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Investors are bracing for a volatile week on Wall Street with a new jobs report set for Friday. And Capitol Hill testimony from the Federal Reserve Chairman is set for tomorrow.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Jerome Powell will testify on the country's economic outlook before a Senate committee where interest rate hikes and whether or not they're actually working to bring down inflation will be a primary focus,

CNN's Matt Egan joins us now.

So Matt, what can we expect to see this week?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Bianna and Victor, we're going to be hearing from one of the most powerful people in the world, Jerome Powell. And he's going to be trying to make sense of this incredibly confusing economy. Because remember, despite the fact that the Federal Reserve is really trying its hardest to slow the economy down. It is still chugging along at a surprising speed.

I mean, Americans are still shopping aggressively, companies are still hiring and the problem of course, for the Fed is that inflation remains way too high. And by some metrics, it's actually getting worse.

So Powell, he's going to face pressure, I think on both sides here. One from some lawmakers who fear the Fed is doing too much. They're driving the economy off the cliff, they're going to cause a recession. But also from other people who are worried that the Fed isn't doing enough because inflation remains high, despite as you can see on your screen, all of those interest rate hikes.

Now, this testimony tomorrow and also on Wednesday from Powell it's just one important event that's happening, what is shaping up to be a consequential week for the economy. We're also getting a lot of new jobs numbers, job openings on Wednesday, jobless claims on Thursday and then the big one, the big jobs report on Friday.

BLACKWELL: So we heard from the former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers talking about inflation and the economy, what did he say?

EGAN: Yes. So Larry Summers, he's been pretty pessimistic on the economy for a while now. Remember, it's almost two years ago that he started sounding the alarm correctly, I think, on inflation, I was wondering if he changed his tune on the economy a bit given some of the strength in the numbers, but not so much.

[15:25:07]

He told our colleague, Poppy Harlow, that he still thinks that we're going to have a recession. Listen to what he said and also he - the best part is that he made a Looney Tunes reference here to try to make his point about why there's going to be a recession.

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LAWRENCE SUMMERS, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: I've used the term risk of a Wile E. Coyote moment to refer to the fact that the economy could hit an air pocket in a few months. My guess is that the overhang and the savings that consumers have accumulated has a few more months to run, but it doesn't have another year to run.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

EGAN: So Summers went on to say that he thinks that the Fed is going to have to keep raising interest rates higher than the market currently anticipates, maybe to 6 percent, up from almost 5 percent right now. And here's why this matters, the higher rates go, the more expensive it is for all of us to borrow, right? Mortgage rates approaching 7 percent, again, credit card rates have never been higher.

And here's a real world example of why this matters: If you were just - let's say you have a $2,000 credit card balance and you're only paying the minimum. At current rates, it would take a dozen years to pay that debt off. And during that time, you would accrue $3,200 of interest.

These are the kinds of numbers that I think are making Larry Summers and others concerned about the trajectory of the economy.

BLACKWELL: What that has to do with Wile E. Coyote in this ...

GOLODRYGA: I guess falling off a cliff, I don't know, right?

EGAN: Exactly, that at some point consumers are going to run out of momentum here. And because of high borrowing costs, because they're going to run out of savings, the economy is going to kind of go off a cliff. That's what he's concerned about.

BLACKWELL: Okay.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. The unemployment rate and where it is now seems like that may be a while (inaudible) ...

EGAN: Yes, lowest since 1969.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Matt Egan, thank you.

EGAN: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Matt.

GOLODRYGA: (Inaudible) ...

BLACKWELL: I guess, if you all got it, it's good. I get it. All right.

GOLODRYGA: Well, the FAA is investigating - get this - another airline incident. This time in Boston, where a United Airlines flight back into the wing of another United aircraft. We'll have details ahead.

BLACKWELL: And parts of Southern California are still covered in snow. We'll take you there. Stay with us.

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