Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ukrainian POW Executed; DeSantis' Agenda Top Priority For Florida Legislature; Florida Bill Would Ban Gender Studies; Bipartisan Legislation To Regulate TikTok. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired March 07, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: The murderers, this on another topic, seen executing a prisoner of war. A Ukrainian soldier who disappeared near Bakhmut just last month. Video of what appears to be a war crime is now circulating online. We're not going to show the moment that the soldier is shot. A warning, this is disturbing, but it's important to see.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Slava Ukraini (Glory to Ukraine).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You son of a --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Just before those gunshots, he says slava Ukraini, which has become sort of a call to arms of Ukrainian forces. It means glory to Ukraine.

Joining us now, retired U.S. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

Are there any circumstances, General Hertling, under the laws of war, where one military force can summarily execute a soldier from another?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: None whatsoever, Jim. This is certainly a war crime. It's firing on an unarmed prisoner who has, you know, basically given up to the enemy forces because he was either out of ammunition or couldn't fight any longer or whatever.

But it is not just a war crime. I think I need to emphasize, this is a war crime publicized by the war criminals. It was Russians who took that film. And I've seen the whole film. And it is just horrific. But then they published it online. Just because an individual said glory to Ukraine, glory to the country he was fighting for. It's just unfathomable and it's criminal in nature.

HILL: And, you know, add that to the list of despicable moments that have sadly been captured on video and other war crimes that have been documented. Of course, the real question is, when and if they will be held responsible. I do have to ask you, though, about what is actually happening in

Ukraine. What is happening in Bakhmut. As Jim pointed out in that video that we saw, I mean the city itself is just decimated in terms of what's left. And we're hearing that from the few remaining people there who are getting out now.

I understand why Ukraine wants to hold on to it. When you look at how this battle is playing out, what is the calculus there in terms of how long they keep up this fight, how long they can keep up the fight?

HERTLING: Erica, what I suggest is Ukraine is trying to hold the Russians by the throat in this area. The Russians continue to attack. They lack, by the way - you know, I've often talked about principles of war. And in this case they are lacking -- they, the Russians -- are lacking unity of command. They have Prigozhin, the Russian military criminals, Chechens all fighting on this.

That breeds confusion. Who's in charge, what are the objectives, what are they trying to achieve and how? The Russians are seeing bodies thrown into this -- excuse me, the Ukrainians are seeing Russian bodies thrown into this fight. And whereas I'm not one that often relies on body counts. When you are talking about a killing field that this has become, and how desperate Russia is to achieve a victory here, Ukraine is holding on to this fight so they can do things in other places and get ready for offenses in other regions.

SCIUTTO: General Hertling, I want to turn to China now because those words from China's top diplomate there are alarming, saying that on current trend lines, in his description, conflict becomes, in effect, inevitable.

This is not isolated. You hear from the CIA director that China has instructed its military to be ready to invade Taiwan by 2027. You have an Air Force general preparing his forces, U.S. Air Force general, for war with China by 2025.

Is this where we are heading, in your view?

HERTLING: Jim, you probably know more about China than any - any of the three of us, having spent a lot of time there yourselves. But the U.S. -- you know, the Chinese are confused about what the U.S. is doing in many cases. They have read our U.S. Indo-Pacific strategy that states specifically that that region faces mounting challenges from the PRC. China knows that they are Washington's primary strategic focus. Even beyond Ukraine, as we were talking about before.

Secondly, China is learning from the Russian/Ukraine conflict and they are learning what they need to fix, not only in their military, but just as importantly what they need to message and to signal to the world. You know, you mentioned in your earlier comments about how this was really about a part of Chinese development.

The Chinese have always been interested in competition, what they call competition, which sometimes leads to conflict. But in this case, what we're talking about is, I believe, they're seeing their military strength be used in the South China Sea, the East China Sea and along the Himalayan border, and they want to message that. This is not development, this is imperialism, as you well know.

[09:35:02]

SCIUTTO: It's alarming to watch.

HILL: Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, always appreciate your expertise and your insight. Thank you.

HERTLING: Thank you, Erica and Jim.

HILL: And a programming note for you. Wolf Blitzer sitting down for an exclusive interview with Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Ukraine's president. That will air tomorrow night, 9:00 Eastern, on CNN on primetime.

Well, with Republicans firmly in control of Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis' conservative agenda really taking top priority. We're going to take a closer look at some of the controversial bills in the spotlight as this new legislative session begins in the state.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Florida's legislature back in session today. Those are live pictures there as they are taking the oath.

[09:40:02]

One major item on the agenda, a complete overhaul of the education system led by the Republican governor, Ron DeSantis. Half a dozen proposed laws target everything from pronouns, to efforts at diversity, to a ban on teaching students about gender and sexuality.

HILL: For DeSantis, this session provides a real opportunity to build on his conservative agenda as he weighs that 2024 run for president. Maybe you've heard there's some speculation.

SCIUTTO: Maybe.

HILL: CNN's Leyla Santiago is live in Tallahassee for us this morning.

So, give us a sense here, Leyla. We've heard a little bit about, what are the proposals that Republicans have out there and given their majority there in Florida is there any chance that Democrats stand in their way?

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, Democrats have obviously voiced opposition and pushback to some of the bills that are on the table. But reminder here, Republicans are the super majority. They have control of the house as well as the senate. So, they will likely be able to push through Governor Ron DeSantis' sort of wish list, his agenda, the priorities that have really stoked culture wars here in Florida for years.

And the timing is interesting, right, because we've heard him talk a lot over the last few days as he has been talking about his priorities given his release of his book, his newly released book, and also the timing of what is expected to be him embarking on an expected presidential campaign. We'll have to wait and see officially for that.

But let's talk about the bills on the table because much of this revolves around education and the parental rights movement as he has called it.

Let's take a look at four of them real quick. I'll highlight two specifically. House Bill 999 eliminates diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. And as you see there, also prohibits gender studies and CRT. That's a big one.

Also House Bill 1223, bans any requirement to use preferred pronouns in school. And it also bans instruction related to sexual identity and orientation all the way up until grade nine. That's an expansion of what Republicans passed last year here.

Let me let you listen to both sides on this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): And I believe parents in the state of Florida should be able to send their kids to elementary school without having an agenda jammed down their throats.

ANNA ESKAMANI (D), FLORIDA STATE HOUSE: I believe firmly that public education is the ultimate equalizer. And if we erode and restrict access to that, then we are -- we are shifting the trajectory of the future of this state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANTIAGO: So, education for Governor Ron DeSantis and Republicans here, a big priority, as it has been seen across the country in campaigns. You know, lawmakers are now in the chambers. I know you showed that earlier today. So, session getting underway. And then, in a few hours, we will hear from Governor Ron DeSantis himself in the State of the State Address.

Jim. Erica.

SCIUTTO: Leyla Santiago, thanks so much.

Joining us now to share their reporting and insights, Ron Brownstein, senior editor at "The Atlantic." and Seung Min Kim, White House reporter for "The Associated Press."

Ron, big picture here. We just had a midterm cycle where many of the further right candidates and positions were rejected by voters, crucially in swing states. As DeSantis clearly considers a run for the GOP nomination, is this a smart national strategy for him, or do you see it more as a primary strategy rather than a general election strategy? What's your view?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's really -- it's really the key question. I mean he is putting so many chips on the idea that he is fighting what he calls the woke mind virus. And under that banner, there's no doubt that red states are engaged in a systematic effort to roll back many aspects of the right's revolution of the past six decades.

I mean what we are seeing is truly extraordinary and spreading throughout the red states with DeSantis at the front of the line on issues like limiting what teachers can say about race and gender and sexual orientation, rolling back LGBTQ rights, making it tougher to vote, eliminating requirements for gun control, toughening penalties for public protests. You talk to groups like Pan America, a free speech group, what's happening in terms of public -- political control over education in Florida is unprecedented.

But, Jim, as you point out, that agenda, while it did very well in the red states in the midterm election, none of the states other than Arizona that rolled back abortion rights, saw a backlash against the Republicans, that same agenda was pretty clearly and unequivocally rejected in not only blue states, but the key purple states, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona.

And so that is the question. Certainly DeSantis thinks he's touching a nerve with primary voters, but there's a really open question whether this will prove nearly as popular with the white collar suburbs outside Detroit, Philadelphia, Phoenix, that Republicans need to win back in order to get the White House in '24.

HILL: Seung Min, the other open question is how Democrats plan to respond here and how much that is a focus within the Biden team as they prepare for what everyone is anticipating will be the announcement of that re-election bid.

[09:45:03]

How much is a counter message to this push for outrage stoking culture wars, how much is that going to be part of the messaging?

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, to the extent that the Biden White House has responded to questions about 2024 and questions about potential challengers, they're actually focusing a lot on the former president, Donald Trump. As we know, you know, President Biden, people around him think that he is the one because he is the one who beat -- who defeated Donald Trump in 2020, that he will be the one again to defeat him in 2024 if he's the nominee. So, there's that aspect.

But when you talk about DeSantis, and, you know, the White House has been asked several times before what they think about the different policies that are being pushed in Florida by Governor DeSantis, they don't actually engage, but you do see the White House and President Biden himself pushing back in subtle ways. You know, you had last month a black history celebration at the White House where both President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris were pretty forceful in pushing back against the notion of erasing history.

Now, that is a not so subtle reference to -- to the efforts to ban certain textbooks from being used in Florida schools by Governor DeSantis. So, it will be really interesting to see as the focus turns to the Florida legislature's activities over the next several months and potentially a potential announcement by Governor DeSantis for a national run, how much the White House engages and sees DeSantis as a real threat, an opponent in 2024.

SCIUTTO: Ron, President Biden, he published an op-ed in "The New York Times" just this morning sharing his plan to keep Medicare alive, slamming the GOP, as he does, quoting from that piece now. If the MAGA Republicans get their way, seniors will pay higher out-of-pocket costs on prescription drugs and insulin, the deficit will be bigger, Medicare will be weaker.

Going back to the State of the Union, this is clearly a line of attack that the president aims to stick with, particularly as he contemplates a run in 2024. Is that a winning message?

BROWNSTEIN: It's the answer to Erica's question from a moment ago. The way President Biden wants to respond to the culture war offensives from DeSantis and Trump is primarily by fighting on economic grounds. I mean, he wants to engage as little as possible directly with them on these fights that they -- these fights that they're igniting and basically shift the focus of the campaign to who can deliver more kitchen table benefits to working families.

You know, when he went down to Florida last month, the president didn't talk about education or LGBTQ rights, he talked about Social Security and Medicare, and his blue collar blueprint to rebuild America and bringing down drug prices.

And clearly, he believes that the way to deal with it is not to be drawn into these culture war confrontations that Republicans view as key to maintaining their hold over working class voters, but instead to appeal to them on a different set of grounds. That is a risky strategy in itself. I mean it leaves many Democrats frustrated that he's not doing more to push back.

But it is pretty clear that Biden, at his core, is something like a pre-1970s Democrat who is most comfortable talking about delivering economic benefits to struggling families and trying to stay out of (INAUDIBLE) about as much as possible with the exception of abortion.

SCIUTTO: All right, let's be fair, that message seemed to have worked in the 2020 and 2022 cycles, to some degree.

HILL: We'll see what happens in 2024.

You know, real quickly, Seung Min, there is increasing chatter, I would say is probably the easiest way to put it, about whether there could be a third party candidate here. How much is that chatter actually being entertained privately within the White House?

KIM: I think that it's the general calculus that, you know - the - that -- that has been discussed, that a third party challenger, depending on who it is, if it's a third party challenger who is, for example, focused on ensuring that Donald Trump does not make his way back to the White House, that that could actually hurt Democrats more than Republicans in the long run.

I know that when we were talking about Liz Cheney's political future over the last year -- over the last several months when we talked about her -- after her primary loss in Wyoming, and she hasn't necessarily ruled out a national bid, there was a lot of discussion that she could actually end up benefitting the Republican Party by taking away people who would have otherwise voted for Democrats.

So, it's not a topic of -- it's not a real major topic of discussion right now. And even the thought of a primary challenger obviously to President Biden is not much of a focus, either. We saw one nominal challenger get into the - get into the race over the weekend, but not much on that front until President Biden announces his re-election bid.

SCIUTTO: Here we go again.

Ron Brownstein, Seung Min Kim, thanks so much.

HILL: Does it feel familiar?

SCIUTTO: It does just a little bit. I can't remember why.

Please do check out Ron's analysis on cnn.com about the divide inside the Republican Party.

And still ahead this hour, have lawmakers found an issue that Republicans and Democrats can agree on? Up next, how a new bipartisan bill could ban TikTok in all of the U.S.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:54:02]

SCIUTTO: There is a new push, potentially a bipartisan one, to regulate TikTok here in the U.S. Today, Virginia Democratic Senator Mark Warner will unveil a bipartisan bill that would expand President Biden's authority to essentially block the app and other foreign linked tech companies that it's judged may pose risks.

HILL: The new bill is being revealed about two weeks before TikTok's CEO is set to testify before Congress.

CNN's Brian Fung joining us now.

So, in terms of this bill, this proposal, how would it actually impact the company, Brian?

BRIAN FUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is a great question, Erica. This bill could lead to a national ban of TikTok. And it's important to point out here that this legislation in still in its very early stages. But the -- it would give the authority to the Commerce Department to take steps, including -- up to and including a ban of TikTok.

The bill doesn't specifically target TikTok, but rather kind of talks about an overall category of technologies that might be deemed to be national security risks, whether that's TikTok or Huawei or, you know, other companies that might raise national security concerns.

[09:55:08]

The whole intent behind the bill, according to Senator Warner, is to prevent a so called whack-a-mole situation where the government has to, you know, come up with new, legal authorities or new bills designed to target individual companies. And this would just give them, you know, a bigger, more flexible tool.

SCIUTTO: I just wonder, based on your reporting, is that where this may very well be heading, a complete ban, and how TikTok's CEO responds to criticism and accusations of ties to the Chinese government.

FUNG: Yes, well, TikTok has acknowledged that the trust issue with policymakers is real and that it's going to take time to address that. And it's also said that the ultimate goal was to have U.S. user data only be accessible by TikTok's U.S. employees.

Now, TikTok's CEO spoke yesterday at a Harvard Business Review conference, and here's a little bit more of what he said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHOU ZI CHEW, CEO, TIKTOK: I think the first thing I would say is that we take these concerns extremely seriously. The Chinese government has actually never asked us for U.S. user data. And we've said this on the record, that even if we were asked for that, we would not provide it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FUNG: Now, we are seeing here that TikTok's CEO is saying, look, it's going to take time to, you know, gain trust with policymakers. We were taking these voluntary steps to improve our security and safeguards. But, on the other hand, you have lawmakers, like Senator Warner, who say, no, we need action right now. And so what we're seeing here is this mismatch, this contrast between TikTok, on the one hand, you know, saying, let's take some time here, and lawmakers who want to really take some action right this moment.

SCIUTTO: Remarkable.

HILL: Brian, really appreciate the reporting. Thank you.

Just ahead here, the urgent search for four Americans kidnapped in Mexico. Their families speaking out, talking more about what led up to that encounter with a Mexican drug cartel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)