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Final Witness to Testify Ahead of Possible Trump Indictment; Douglas Brinkley is Interviewed about the Possible Trump Indictment; UBS Buys Credit Suisse; Leila Sadat is Interviewed about Charges Against Putin; Putin and Xi Meet in Moscow. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired March 20, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:31]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good Monday morning. I'm Erica Hill.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman.

Great to see you this morning.

HILL: Nice to be back with you, my friend.

BERMAN: A pivotal day in court for the former president. Today, Robert Costello, once a legal adviser to Trump attorney Michael Cohen, is expected to testify before a New York grand jury and Michael Cohen has said he's been called as a potential rebuttal witness to Costello. That grand jury could issue an indictment or indictments against former President Donald Trump any day now, and Trump has called for protests if that happens. We are outside the New York City courthouse watching for the arrival of witnesses this morning.

HILL: Plus, we're also keeping a very close eye on U.S. markets this hour. Futures in the green. That's a good thing. But this is after Switzerland's largest bank scooped up its rival, Credit Suisse, in an emergency rescue deal.

Plus, Chinese President Xi Jinping in Moscow at this hour, set to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin. China looking to send a strong message of support amid Russia's unrelenting war on Ukraine. We'll take a closer look at what that means as Putin is, of course, now facing an international arrest warrant for alleged war crimes.

We'll get to all of that, but we do begin this hour with CNN correspondent Kara Scannell, who's outside the courthouse here in New York City.

So, the Trump legal team wanted attorney Robert Costello to testify today, part of an effort, understandably, to call Michael Cohen's credibility into question, but you're also learning more about what this could entail in documents that Costello says he's already handed over.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica. So, Robert Costello, according to a source, had reached out to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office and lawyers for former President Trump, saying that he had information that would contradict what Michael Cohen has been saying. Now, Cohen, remember, pleaded guilty to campaign finance violations several years ago in the federal case, and he said then that he made these payments in coordination with and at the direction of Trump.

Now, Costello has now since handed over hundreds of emails and documents to prosecutors saying that this would back up his contention that what Cohen said then is not the same thing as what he had told him when he was representing him.

Now, according to a letter that Trump's lawyers had given to the district attorney's office, they say that Costello could testify before the grand jury, telling them that Cohen told him at the time that Trump had not committed any crimes. So, they had asked the DA's office to bring Costello in as part of an exculpatory witness testimony to try to contradict what Cohen has said. You'll remember, Cohen was in meeting before the grand jury providing testimony two days last week. And as Cohen said on MSNBC this weekend, he was asked by the DA's office to return again this afternoon as a possible rebuttal witness. He said he didn't know if that would be just meeting with prosecutors or if he would be asked to go back before the grand jury. But this all is - all signs that this investigation is coming to a head and a decision on a probable indictment of the former president is expected soon.

Erica. John.

BERMAN: So, Kara, coming to a head, and that decision expected soon. How are New York City officials planning for all of this?

SCANNELL: Well, John, sources have told my colleagues and our team here that the security is having - they're now doing daily briefings at the NYPD. A briefing is expected today. They're also monitoring social media. And as our team out here - we've been out here this morning, we actually saw some NYPD officers installing security cameras on top of the lampposts around here, both outside of this courthouse, but also in the vicinity. So just another sign that they are increasing security with the real uncertainty of what will happen if the former president is indicted, John.

BERMAN: All right, Kara Scannell, please keep us posted.

Again, we're awaiting possible arrivals any minute now down there.

Thank you, Kara.

With us now is CNN legal analyst, Ambassador Norm Eisen. He was also the House Judiciary special counsel in Trump's first impeachment trial.

Ambassador, help me understand what's going on today because I don't think I've seen something quite like this before where you have a grand jury investigation and the person being investigated is allowed to basically ask for a witness at the end here. How is this going to work? Who's going to ask Costello questions? What's going to happen?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: John, thanks for having me back.

What's going to happen today is the exercise of Donald Trump's rights. They're very broad under New York law. Unusually so. That's why Donald Trump himself was invited to the grand jury, but instead he's sending in a proxy in the form of attorney Robert Costello.

[09:05:00]

Now, remember, Mr. Costello represented Michael Cohen, and he was criticized in the report of Special Counsel Robert Mueller for what to me tip toed up to the line of witness tampering. At one point telling Michael Cohen he has powerful friends, obviously referring to the president, and he should sleep well tonight before he cooperated. Trump and Trump world turned on Cohen, of course, when he did cooperate. Costello's lawyer relationship ended with Cohen. Now Costello is going to come in and share information from that attorney/client relationship, apparently saying that Cohen was telling a different story before he cooperated.

But, John, we know that already. Cohen has admitted to that. So, they'll bring in Cohen, possibly if Costello needs to be rebutted, to say, yes, I wasn't candid before I cooperated. I've been candid since.

I've analyzed Cohen's statements since he began cooperating and they have been rock solid. He's told the same account about the president's hush money to influence the 2016 election.

HILL: So based on what we're seeing here then, with Costello coming in today, potentially Cohen coming back to rebut, what does this do to a timeline, in your view?

EISEN: Erica, we have always thought once things started accelerating that we would see charges before the end of March. And I believe we're still on that track, and that we could see them as soon as this week. This really is the end game at the very terminus of the grand jury proceedings, the defendant is sometimes invited, as Trump was.

I lived through all of this in the impeachment of President Trump, investigating the hush money, inviting the president to come testify before the House Judiciary Committee. And this signals to me that we are getting to the very end. So, I'm looking for charges as soon as this week.

BERMAN: Charges, and then what happens? Again, the mechanics of what might take place here, Norm?

EISEN: Well, just as this maneuvering that we're seeing in the grand jury under New York rules is pretty typical. Defendants have much broader rights, potential defendants, in New York than in other places.

The thing that happens, John, once you're past the issuance of the indictment should be pretty standard. The defendant, through his lawyers, agrees with the prosecutors on a time and a place to appear in court to answer the charges, guilty or not guilty, to be booked and, in this case, to be released. And we'll see if Donald Trump does that.

If he doesn't, you have a very complicated legal process to get him from Florida to the state of New York, to Manhattan, called extradition. But I'm guessing that despite the former president's protestations on Truth Social that it won't come to that if he's charged. That still is a big if. It is important to remember charges have not issued. We will see. We're predicting it. We've looked at the law. They look likely. They seem well-founded. But first, of course, you have to get charges before that rest of the process occurs.

HILL: So, there is that. Kind of an important step as we look at all of this. This is, of course, not the only case that we're looking at. And there's some new reporting from CNN about what could be unfolding in Georgia, that Fulton County prosecutors are considering racketeering and conspiracy charges in relation to the investigation there. What do you make of that?

EISEN: I think that there are strong potential charges in Fulton County ranging from the simple, a solicitation of election fraud when Donald Trump asked Brad Raffensperger to just find 11,780 votes that didn't exist. Also false electoral certificates. And then charges based on those two pillars, fake votes, fake electoral certificates, can escalate in complexity, Erica. The next level up are conspiracy charges. And then going beyond that would be a Racketeer Influence and Corrupt Organizations Act, RICO, which would basically, if they wanted to do it in Fulton County, Georgia, allow them to replicate the presentation of the January 6th committee about the whole nationwide plot that Georgia was so central to allegedly with Mr. Trump and others focusing on that state as they hoped the first domino that would cause many others to topple.

[09:10:14]

So the DA has to choose, does she want a simple case that she could put on in a week or two, or these RICO cases, she did that with the Atlanta teacher cheating scandal, they can take months, but sometimes the jury wants a bigger case to deliver bigger sentences.

HILL: Well, we'll be watching for developments wherever they may come this week.

Ambassador Norm Eisen, always appreciate it. Thank you.

EISEN: Thank you.

HILL: Also joining us this morning, presidential historian and history professor at Rice University, Douglas Brinkley.

Nice to see you this morning.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, HISTORY PROFESSOR, RICE UNIVERSITY: Good morning.

HILL: Look, there is still a lot of unknowns here, which I think is really important, right. It's the former president who said he would be charged tomorrow. There is no evidence that that is going to happen definitively tomorrow. If charges were to be filed, though, we know it would be unprecedented

given that he is a former president, also a candidate in 2024. But it's also important to note that the bad behavior, either known or alleged, when it comes to Donald Trump really doesn't seem to stick to him. So, just putting this in a larger historical context, the political impact given how divided the country is right now, how would you sum that up?

BRINKLEY: Well, we don't know what the political impact's going to be, but what's clear is Donald Trump is going to use this as a big time fundraising event. I think the whole notion of declaring Tuesday as the golden day when he's going to be arrested, using the word "arrested" and not "indicted" indicates that Trump sees this as a money-making operation for himself. He sees it as a way to have people like Vice President Pence say nice things about him. The governor, DeSantis, is going to probably say Trump's being handed a bad deal if this goes down. So, for Donald Trump, this isn't that grim of news.

Now, whether this will corrode confidence in Trump and the Republican Party, or at least, you know, start losing some voters, saying, look, the Trump days are over, is yet to be seen. But as of today, Trump isn't worried about this. He's seeing it as a way a con man would, as a way to make an opportunity when you're getting your maim in the press.

BERMAN: Doug, you know, we say it's unprecedented for a former president to be charged with a crime potentially, but I can't even think of a former president who tried to play such a central role and be such a major national figure after his presidency at this point. It really is stunning to think about it.

BRINKLEY: A lot is stunning that's going on here. There used to be the great socialist candidate Eugene V. Debs, who due to his political views got imprisoned. There have been times when, you know, we would talk about a president that needs to be disbarred. Bill Clinton no longer has a license to practice law. But what's happening here to Donald Trump is that he is going to be indicted as an ex-president, it looks like, on a number of felony charges with Stormy Daniels just leading the pack. It's all unsavory. It's all confusing. My fear is that there's so many coming around him at once people are going to simply think it's a political takedown.

But we've never had a president like Trump before, one without military service, one that claimed -- claims to be a businessperson, but really just ran his own father's operation and expanded it. There's not somebody, as we've talked about, John, for a long time that we can compare Donald Trump to. And alas, he has the -- you know, he's the king of the double impeachment and very likely he'll be the first, you know, originator of the double indictment as things are coming.

BERMAN: Really is no playbook for this at all.

HILL: No.

BERMAN: And Trump may try to take advantage of that. Douglas Brinkley, always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

BRINKLEY: Thank you, guys.

BERMAN: So, this morning, just a few minutes before the markets open here in the U.S., Dow futures are now up slightly, which is a change, despite concerns about the volatility of the banking sector.

HILL: In Europe, shares of Credit Suisse plunged more than 63 percent at one point. This after Switzerland's biggest bank, UBS, agreed to take over Credit Suisse.

CNN chief business correspondent and anchor Christine Romans joining us now.

So, as the markets open, people are wondering not only what should I watch, but just how worried should I believe.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Look, this is all this weekend of furious negotiations to sell Credit Suisse to UBS, it's former rival, 167-year-old bank. I mean just history unfolding in Switzerland this weekend. It was meant to restore confidence in the banking system.

[09:15:01]

So, I'm going to be watching the regional banks in the U.S., which have their own issues. They're much smaller than Credit Suisse. They're not internationally significant, these banks we've been watching in the U.S. right now, but they are significant for the people who deposit, bank there and significant for U.S. -- U.S. regulators who are worried about chain reactions if you have a lot of weakness in some of these banks.

Our Matt Egan reporting over the weekend, a source telling him that the outflows from some of these regional banks in the U.S. have slowed. So, again, it's all about restoring confidence.

Last night, just about 45 minutes before the Asian markets opened, we had this, you know, global -- global intervention in the currency markets to make sure that their dollar swap dollars are flowing to central banks. It sounds really wonky, but that's another example of trying to restore --

HILL: I got the alert last night and it made no sense to me.

ROMANS: But you knew it was important. But you knew it was important.

HILL: I knew it was important.

ROMANS: Yes, it was important. And it's another way they're just trying to make sure that confidence can be restored in the banking system.

BERMAN: I mean, that's the thing, on the one hand it tries to restore confidence if someone steps in and buys Credit Suisse. On the other hand, you're rattled because, oh my God, someone has to step in.

ROMANS: I know. Right.

HILL: Yes.

ROMANS: Every time they do something to restore confidence reminds you that confidence needs to be restored.

BERMAN: Yes.

ROMANS: And that's what's so freaky about the banking system is that, you know, the fundamentals can be find and Credit Suisse -- regulators were saying over the weekend, Credit Suisse could have made it, could have kept going, but it was Twitter and then the weakness from the regional banks in the U.S., they were sort of blaming the U.S. on this, which, Credit Suisse had its own problems. You know, self- inflicted wounds a long time in the making. But it just reveals that we're at a moment right now, a year of interest rate hikes, you know, the -- it's being revealed, the weaknesses in the system.

And I think that this is kind of a longer-term take on it, but this is revealing also what ten years of basically free money has done to the system. Now interest rates are rising and we are paying the price of all of that easy money for so long.

BERMAN: Christine Romans, you restore confidence in life.

ROMANS: Oh.

BERMAN: It's great to see you.

ROMANS: Nice to see you. Welcome back, John.

BERMAN: All right, happening now, the Chinese president is in Moscow for the first time since Russia invaded Ukraine and since the International Criminal Court charged Vladimir Putin with war crimes. We are live in Moscow with what is on that agenda this morning.

HILL: And happening today, President Biden welcoming the cast of "Ted Lasso" to the White House. Not there to kick around a soccer ball, although it could happen. They're there to discuss mental health issues. A really important moment. That's ahead.

Plus, we're going to check in on your destroyed brackets. I men, destroyed. And I'm not just talking about mine, but destroyed. Two top seeds remain now in the dance. Highlights from the biggest upsets and what to watch for tonight.

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[09:21:44]

HILL: Right now we are moments away from a high stakes one-on-one meeting in Moscow between Russian President Putin and Chinese President Xi. Now, Xi arrived in Moscow for the state visit just a few hours ago. Beijing, of course, framing this trip as more of a peace making mission amidst the war in Ukraine.

BERMAN: It comes just after the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin, essentially charging him with the abduction of children from Ukraine.

HILL: Joining us now to discuss what those charges could actually mean is Leila Sadat. She's a professor at Washington University in St. Louis School of Law, and one of the world's foremost authorities when it comes to international criminal law.

It's good to have you with us this morning.

So, when these charges broke, there was a lot of talk about how they are largely symbolic since the reality of Putin traveling to a country, right, an ICC country, where he could potentially be arrested, seems slim. Why do you think the charges were filed now?

PROF. LEILA SADAT, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS SCHOOL OF LAW: Well, the charges are filed because Ukraine referred the case to the court, and actually 41 states joined the referral to the court. Ukraine asked the ICC to investigate, as did 41 members of the court's state's parties, if you like.

And that means that the prosecutor has an obligation to investigate. And the prosecutor has to follow the facts and the law. And the facts, as we've seen on our television screens, thanks so much to CNN for your great reporting, by the way, Erica, the facts really drive this case. And the facts are shocking in their illumination of war crimes. And so the prosecutor really has no obligation but to file charges.

HILL: We have really seen this concerted effort - I mean I was even meeting with Polish officials just about a year ago talking about their efforts to work to help document potential war crimes.

What more do you see could be coming?

SADAT: I think this is the tip of the iceberg. I think it's a brilliant strategy on the part of the prosecutor to charge both Vladimir Putin and his commissioner for children's rights in this case because there are two war crimes that have been charged. They're relatively obvious. Russia has essentially admitted to what happened. Vladimir Putin and his minister have stated that they engaged in this conduct. And so it's really obvious.

And it's also a particularly heinous offense. These are actually grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. And Russia's a party to the Geneva Conventions. So, Russia knows exactly that these are not OK. The transfer and deportation of children during war is unlawful.

So, I think these are the tip of the iceberg. And I think we're going to see a lot more charges relating probably to crimes against humanity, probably to the aerial bombardment campaign and other attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure.

So while you anticipate more charges, what do you think the outcome of some of those charges will be? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but these ICC charges, Putin, for example, can't be tried in absentia, correct?

SADAT: That's absolutely right, Erica. And, of course, we know that international justice always has to play the long game. Many times we found ourselves in this situation before with respect to Slobodan Milosevic, with respect to Charles Taylor, with respect to Ratko Mladic.

[09:25:03]

We've had to wait a long time to get our defendants in the dock.

That said, as a permanent court, the International Criminal Court can wait. There's no statute of limitations. And it makes it much more difficult, both for President Putin, and for his commissioner, to travel abroad, to conduct their business and subjects them potentially to crippling sanctions on a personal level, as well as because of their state conduct, everywhere they go.

HILL: Really quickly, before I let you go, do you see these -- both these charges and the potential for additional charges in any way influencing the behavior or the orders given to Russian troops?

SADAT: So, I don't see President Putin himself all of a sudden having a change of heart and saying, you know, this is a really bad idea, we shouldn't - we shouldn't be violating international law.

What I suspect, though, is that others under his command, soldiers in the field, when asked to do things that are manifestly unlawful, that are clearly breaches of international law, not just in the ICC statute, but in all the treaties that Russia is a party to, Russia is a party to the genocide convention, to the Geneva Conventions. I think a lot of the people in Russia, once they learn about these things, are going to have second thoughts about this war. And we understand from the reporting that's now ongoing that that's already happening.

HILL: Leila Sadat, really appreciate your insight this morning. Thank you.

BERMAN: So all that is the backdrop to -

SADAT: Thank you.

BERMAN: I'm so sorry.

So all that is the backdrop to an incredibly important summit underway in Moscow between the Russian and Chinese presidents. Chinese President Xi Jinping arriving there this morning. It's all happening after Putin was charged.

CNN's Matthew Chance is joining us live from Moscow this morning.

Matthew, what is on the agenda for these meetings?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, you're going to see these extraordinary scenes, first of all, of Xi Jinping standing next to an indicted war criminal for the reasons that you've just been discussing with your last guest.

What's on the agenda, a closer relationship between Russia and China. This is what both countries say that they want. They've been forging much closer ties over the course of the past decade. They've met each other face-to-face more than 40 times according to the count that's being carried on Russian state media.

But this is by far the most important one because Russia is increasingly isolated in the world. It comes, as we mentioned just after this indictment at the ICC. It's the first time Xi Jinping has met Putin since his invasion of Ukraine. And so it is a potent, symbolic show of support from China, one of the world's super powers, remember, to Russia. And that's been noticed, of course, by the Russians, and they -- they've seen it -- they see it as a diplomatic coup.

But it also sends a message to the rest of the world as well. You know, Xi Jinping is willing to stand by Russia. Maybe others should, too.

There are a couple of concrete issues, though, on the agenda. The first is whether or not China will take the step of providing military aid to Russia. So far it hasn't done that. It says it has a relationship without limits with Russia, but, in fact, it's put a limit on that relationship, which is providing ammunition and weapons for the battlefield. It's not doing that, but the concern is it might do that, and that might be a turning point, an inflection point in the conflict if the military might of China gets behind Russia. So, we're watching carefully for that.

The other issue is the peace plan that China has put out. It's put out a 12-point peace plan, calling for talks, but stopping short of demand that Russia withdrawal from the territory it has conquered. And so it's got a pretty lukewarm reception in the west so far.

HILL: Matthew Chance, appreciate it. Thank you.

BERMAN: So we are live in Florida as former President Trump's possible indictment has upended the House Republican policy retreat in Orlando. Republican lawmakers are vowing to go after the district attorney behind the hush money probe.

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