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Banking Crisis Easing?; Will Trump Be Indicted?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 20, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:14]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington.

Bracing for uncharted territory. Authorities in New York preparing for a potential indictment of former President Donald Trump. Look at this video from this morning, the NYPD installing security cameras on light posts outside of Manhattan courthouse. That's where a grand jury could soon decide to charge Trump for his alleged role in hush money payments to adult film star Stormy Daniels.

Trump over the weekend saying he expects to be arrested tomorrow and calling on his supporters to protest and -- quote -- "take our nation back."

His personal attorney, Alina Habba, telling CNN that, if Trump is arrested, to expect -- quote -- "mayhem."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALINA HABBA, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: If they choose to do so for a misdemeanor which, frankly, he didn't even do, it is going to cause mayhem, Paula.

I mean, it's just a very scary time in our country. If this is what we're doing in this country, you better secure the premises, because it's dangerous. People are going to get upset.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Of course, this is just one of several legal problems that Trump is facing.

We also have some new reporting on a second Trump investigation, the one in Fulton County, Georgia, a source telling CNN that prosecutors are thinking about bringing racketeering and conspiracy charges over his effort to overturn the 2020 election in that state.

We have more on that in a moment.

First, though, let's start with the latest out of New York.

CNN's Kara Scannell joining

Kara, the Manhattan grand jury is bringing in a new witness today, an attorney highly connected in the Trump world. What more can you tell us about this?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, we expect this attorney, Bob Costello, to arrive at the building behind me where the grand jury is meeting in about an hour or so from now.

And so he is going to be brought in to testify at the request of Donald Trump's attorneys. Costello, according to a source, reached out to the Manhattan district attorney's office and Trump's lawyer, saying that he had information that would contradict what Michael Cohen has been saying.

Cohen, of course, has said that Trump directed him to make the hush money payment when he pleaded guilty a couple of years ago to those federal charges. So, Costello, we're told, has provided hundreds of pages of documents and e-mails all from that period when he was representing Cohen.

And Trump's attorney, in asking the DA's office to call him in, say they believe that Costello would say that he knew that Cohen told him he knew of no illegal activity by Trump, so clearly an effort by Trump's attorneys to try to get some potentially exculpatory material before the grand jury, or at least some material that could have them question the credibility of Cohen.

Cohen is also on standby today to appear before the grand jury or meet with the prosecutors after Costello's testimony. He wasn't sure if he was going to meet or testify, but he is on standby as a potential rebuttal witness, and this all taking place is we're seeing the security around the courthouse really start to pick up here.

We have -- as you said, that they put security cameras on the light post this morning. We have also seen barricades placed up all around the courthouse in the perimeter, s, certainly everyone with this expectation that an endgame and a decision is near -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Kara, thank you so much. If you could stand by for us, I want to go to Manu Raju.

He is in Orlando, where you, Manu, are covering the House GOP retreat, and many lawmakers are having to answer questions about Trump's potential indictment in New York. What are they saying?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they're planning to use the power of their new House GOP majority to go after the district attorney that could bring charges against the former president.

Just today, three key committee chairmen sending a letter, in a pretty extraordinary move, and demanding Alvin Bragg, the district attorney in Manhattan, to come and sit down for a transcribed interview and ask him for a range of communications, even as one key committee chairman who is asking for the information acknowledged he does not yet know the full scope of the potential charges against Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): And then what changed? President Trump announces he's running for president, and, shazam, now they're going to -- now they're going to -- we're going to -- we're going to -- some bookkeeping error from seven years ago, misdemeanors, is now -- now what they're going after.

So it makes absolutely no sense.

RAJU: But you don't know what the charges are against former -- the former president.

JORDAN: No, we're going on what you guys have told us.

RAJU: Yes.

JORDAN: I mean, that's all been reported.

RAJU: Aren't you jumping to conclusions?

I mean, he may have broken the law. Does that concern you?

JORDAN: We don't think -- we don't think President Trump broke the law at all.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): It's a misdemeanor. So it's not really a crime of the century either. But, yes, this thing is going to be -- it's going to have political taint to it any way you spin it.

[13:05:05]

RAJU: I mean, but it's allegedly falsifying business records to cover up a hush money payment. Does that concern you, these -- the potential...

MCCAUL: Sure. I mean, if a crime was committed, that would concern me. I think the law is not -- don't break the law. It needs to be enforced.

RAJU: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, Speaker McCarthy has directed his committees to press ahead on an investigation and asking whether or not any federal funding was used as part of this local investigation.

I asked Chairman Jim Jordan about that as well. He said it is still -- they're asking questions. They don't have answers about that, as Republicans going after the district attorney, trying to shift the page away from Trump and onto the investigator himself -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Manu, thank you.

So, Sara, that is New York. Take us to Georgia, where there is another investigation. What is the latest there? SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: The investigation all started back when Trump called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, pressed him to just find the votes for Trump to win Georgia in 2020.

So, we're learning, my colleague Don Lemon, that the Fulton County district attorney is still considering racketeering charges in this case. This is something that's been on her radar for a while that she's been considering bringing this sort of wide-ranging case that would essentially look at Donald Trump and his associates as a criminal enterprise.

Of course, no one has been charged yet in this case. And we have also seen the first move by Trump's legal team related to this case, and it's an aggressive one today. In a new court filing, they went into court in Georgia and they're basically asking for a judge, not the judge who is overseeing the special purpose grand jury, but any other judge on the bench there, to hear their emotion that essentially the special grand jury's final report and all of the evidence that it collected should be tossed.

So, all of those witnesses that provided testimony to the grand jury, all of the documents they may have collected pursuant to subpoenas, and all of that evidence should be rendered essentially inadmissible, it should not be under consideration.

They're also asking for a judge to disqualify the Fulton County district attorney's office from pursuing any charges related in this case. It was a very long filing in court today. They took a lot of issues with the way the Fulton County district attorney Fani Willis has conducted herself during this investigation. They also took issue with a number of rulings that the judge overseeing the special grand jury has made, as well as some interviews he's given to the press, including CNN.

And, remember, in a very unusual turn, we saw the foreperson for the special grand jury go on this media tour. She was allowed to talk to the press. The judge made that clear. But Trump's attorneys are raising concerns about her media tour as well, essentially saying you have tainted the jury pool.

So what they are arguing here is the last seven, eight months or whatever of investigation should essentially be thrown out, should be inadmissible. So we will wait to see for a judge to hear those arguments and see what that judge decides.

KEILAR: All right, Sara Murray, Manu Raju, Kara Scannell, thank you for all of your reporting.

Let's talk about this now with Jennifer Rodgers. She's a former federal prosecutor. And we're also joined by Jackie Kucinich. She is the Washington bureau chief for "The Boston Globe."

So, Jennifer, we will remember here that CNN obtained a copy of two e- mails that Robert Costello wrote to Michael Cohen back in April of 2018. And Costello said in these that he was speaking to Trump lawyer, then-Trump lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. And then he went on to tell Cohen he -- quote -- "could sleep well tonight" because he had -- quote -- "friends in high places."

Cohen provided those e-mails to Congress in an effort to show that a pardon was dangled before he decided to go ahead and cooperate with federal prosecutors. So, knowing what the grand jury in Manhattan is hearing today, I guess the question is, who's more credible, Michael Cohen or Robert Costello, in your view?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well it's hard to say.

We don't know what the testimony is. And the grand jurors can draw their own conclusions about the credibility of witnesses. I mean, we have the e-mails you describe. So, that's on paper. And grand jurors and, ultimately, prosecutors, as they contemplate charges, will have to think about, if Robert Costello is testifying that Michael Cohen told him something, and there's no actual record of that, do they believe him?

This is something that they have been thinking about for a long time. The credibility of Michael Cohen came up years ago in connection with the Southern District of New York's federal case. And Manhattan prosecutors have, of course, met with him probably a couple dozen times by now. So his credibility has been front and center the whole time.

But every time a new piece of evidence comes out, if Robert Costello is in fact providing new evidence about supposedly a lack of credibility on Michael Cohen's part, prosecutors will have to consider that as they decide whether to move forward or not.

KEILAR: I guess a bigger picture question here, because you hear Trump's lawyer saying that this is something that shouldn't be prosecuted.

So, Jennifer, from what you have seen up to now, is this case worth prosecuting?

RODGERS: Well, that's a really interesting question, Brianna.

It seems to me that they have the factual basis to charge, certainly the falsification of records misdemeanor, and also the enhancement, because it does appear that it was done for the purpose of affecting the election. So they have the facts.

[13:10:03]

The question is, is it a big enough deal to charge the former president with this? Because it carries a four-year maximum. But, often in these cases, the person who's charged and convicted gets no time at all, gets probation. So that's a different question. Is it worth charging if, ultimately, it's not a hugely important case?

And some of that -- the calculation that Alvin Bragg and his team are talking about right now might have to do with whether they in fact intend to bring the other investigation they have been working on, the manipulation of assets to avoid taxes and to get loans, and also whether other charges are going to be brought.

If they're thinking that the feds are going to charge, Georgia is going to charge, they might as well throw theirs in. So all of these things, I think, are kind of swirling around as they decide whether or not to charge it. But it is a factually solid case, I believe.

And they have clearly, if they do charge, made the assessment that they would have charged someone else with it. So, if that's the case, they should charge the former president with it.

KEILAR: Jackie, sources are telling CNN Trump maybe sees some opportunity here, that he believes in indictment would help him politically with his base. What do you think?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So you're actually hearing that as a point of concern for Republicans who might challenge the former president in the primary, that sympathy could be gained from the fact that -- from even his supporters, people who don't support him, who think that perhaps he's being picked on for political reasons.

That's certainly something he's putting out there. It's certainly something you're hearing someone like a Rick (sic) DeSantis just recently say that -- go after the prosecutor, go after the investigation, rather than the charges that may or may not be filed.

KEILAR: I wonder if you think, Jackie -- I mean, you have been watching Trump as he -- he's giving some speeches. He's dealing with a lot, right?

He's got a lot besides just trying to run for president. He's dealing with some of these legal walls closing in. Do you see any of this bleeding off any energy from him as he's trying to make his case for why his supporters should put him back in the White House again?

KUCINICH: We're certainly not seeing the same campaign I think that we were used to seeing well in the last cycle.

However, yes and no, right? This is -- it's a lot more sporadic. But we are very early in the process. And, right now, he just seems to be focusing on making sure that those who have expressed loyalty in the past remain loyal, House Republicans, other Republicans who may or may not be challenging him, to make sure that he still has them on their side -- on his side, and using every part of his -- in his power and in his media structure to ensure that that continues, lest they lose some of them are energetic parts of the Republican base.

KEILAR: Jennifer, I want to revisit something that Trump's lawyer said on Sunday, warning that there would be mayhem if Trump is indicted.

RODGERS: Yes, that's really an outrageous thing to say, because that's what they're trying to do is to stir up this mayhem.

I mean, Trump's posts on social media, protest, protest, protest in all caps, he's calling for protests, not warning about possible protests.

So I think it's really irresponsible. I think they're actually trying to bring out people to protest. And if that leads to violence, then, obviously, that's a major security problem, a major public safety problem here in New York. And we have seen this before on January 6. We're seeing it again.

I think it's really -- I think the lawyer should not talk about this. I think Trump should probably just be quiet and wait and see what happens. I don't think it's going to serve him. Well. All of his statements are fair game at a trial. Any statement that he makes can be used. And this is just kind of another one of those things that shows where his mind is, that he's not concerned about fighting these charges fair and square, that he wants to cause mayhem.

KEILAR: There's been some pressure, Jackie, from Trump world on Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, that maybe he needed to come out and defend Trump a little bit in some of this.

Well, he did comment on this today. And this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I don't know what goes into paying hush money to a porn star to secure silence over some type of alleged affair.

I just -- I can't speak to that. But what I can speak to is that if you have a prosecutor who is ignoring crimes happening every single day in his jurisdiction, and he chooses to go back many, many years ago to try to use something about porn star hush money payments, that's an example of pursuing a political agenda and weaponizing the office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Interesting response. I'm not sure it's the exact one that Trump world was looking for, Jackie.

KUCINICH: Backhanded. A little backhanded.

[13:15:00]

KEILAR: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

KUCINICH: Yes.

I mean, I think the preamble there says all you need to say about the friction and the competitiveness going on between the two men. But the latter part, that was -- I'm sure will make some in Trump world happy. There had been a pressure campaign to get him to weigh in to what was going on with the various investigations.

But that first part, I think, is what he was -- even, like, the pause between the two statements, I think, tells you all you need to know about where we are in this almost contest between the two men.

KEILAR: Yes, he's seeing opportunity. Certainly, he is.

Jackie and Jennifer, thank you so much to both of you. I do appreciate the conversation.

So is the banking roller coaster, is it finally over? Markets largely back in the green today after another major financial institution is rescued. What it means for all of us ahead.

Plus, two of the biggest thorns in America's side meeting today in Moscow. What the U.S. is watching for as Putin rolls out the red carpet for Chinese President Xi Jinping.

And spring break state of emergency, Miami Beach cracking down on crowds, ordering a strict curfew after two deadly shootings over the weekend. We will have Miami Beach's mayor joining us live.

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KEILAR: Today, another sigh of relief as big banks, bigger banks and regulators team up to try and prevent a financial crisis.

In the U.S., deposits have stabilized meaning the prospects of a panic run on your local bank have gone way down. And, globally, investors seem optimistic now that UBS is buying out its troubled rival Credit Suisse, becoming a megabank worth nearly $2 trillion as a result.

So, is this roller-coaster ride over?

CNN's Matt Egan is, as always, here to explain this to us.

Are things finally stabilizing here?

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, Brianna, the mood on Wall Street is certainly improved.

But this is a fast-moving situation, and sentiment can change in the blink of an eye. So let's look where U.S. markets are trading right now. As you can see, the Dow is up, up 400 points, 1.2 percent. This is actually near session highs, the Nasdaq, the S&P moving higher as well.

So what we have seen is that officials around the world are moving from the weakest link to the weakest link in the banking system, trying to put out fires, right? First, it was Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank. The two lenders that collapsed recently.

Then the industry came to the rescue of First Republic. And now all the attention is on Credit Suisse. So what's happening here? UBS has agreed to buy Credit Suisse for about $3.25 billion. That's a 60 percent discount to where the stock was trading on Friday. They're getting a lot of money from the government and from the Swiss Central Bank to try to backstop the losses. And, as you mentioned, this is a banking giant with $1.7 trillion in

assets. As you can see, Credit Suisse closing the day in Europe sharply lower, UBS moving higher. What's really important here to note is that UBS did not want to buy Credit Suisse. Credit Suisse has been in trouble for years, but regulators basically forced them to do this deal.

I mean, this would be like if the NFL forced the New England Patriots to buy my beloved New York Jets because the Jets just keep losing. But they said it's not good for the league. So the Patriots would -- in this instance, the Patriots would be UBS and they sort of reluctantly agreed to do the deal.

Let's look at how regional banks are doing. Pretty mixed. Some of the new developments here is that a U.S. official telling CNN that deposit outflows from the regional banks, they have eased. That situation has stabilized, according to U.S. officials. That is very important.

Let's look at First Republic Bank, down 26 percent on the day. The latest is that "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that J.P. Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon and other big bank CEOs are in talks about another potential rescue for First Republic Bank. We should note that "The Journal" says the talks are preliminary, and none of the banks are commenting just yet, but we should stay tuned for that one.

KEILAR: And so is this going to change, any of this, the Fed's approach?

EGAN: Well, that is definitely a huge question right now. What is the Fed going to do?

And, right now, investors just don't know what the Fed is going to do, even though the decision is coming in just 48 hours. About a one in three chance that the Fed doesn't do anything at all, because they're worried about the banking system, they don't want to do more damage, two in three chance that they raise interest rates anyway to try to get inflation under control by raising interest rates by a quarter-of- a-point.

Now, here's why all of this really matters. It's because the more nervous bankers are, the more difficult it's going to be and more expensive to borrow for everyone, right? We're talking about mortgage rates, credit cards, auto loans, student loans. All of them are going to get more expensive the longer this lasts. And that is going to slow down the economy.

And, Brianna, the risk is that this banking crisis lasts so long that it ends up causing the recession that everyone's been worried about.

KEILAR: Let's hope not.

Matt, thank you so much for taking us through all of that. We do appreciate it.

I want to bring in CNN global economic analyst Rana Foroohar of "The Financial Times." Rana, great to have you here.

Fifteen years ago, the big banks were getting bailed out. I can't believe it's been 15 years. But, this time, big banks keep coming to the receiver, right?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Me neither.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: Is this a good thing, this kind of different role that they're playing? Does that mean the system, the failsafes are actually working? Is that how you're reading it?

FOROOHAR: Well, it depends on your point of view.

You're absolutely right. This is not 2008 all over again. I mean, back then, there was -- there was a big single problem, which was sliced- and-diced mortgage loans that were collapsing and ricocheting through the whole banking system. This time around, as Matt alluded to, we're seeing individual banks that have their own weaknesses be subject to depositors getting nervous and pulling out their funds.

Now, why is that happening? That's happening because we are in a fundamentally changing economy. We have had, not just since the financial crisis, but even before that, very low rates for a long time. Since the financial crisis, we have had even easier money, lots of money poured into the system by the central banks. And in the last year or two, that's been changing.

[13:25:15]

And so those rising rates really kind of -- it's like what Warren Buffett says. When the tide pulls out, you see who's swimming without their shorts on. It starts to expose risk. Who doesn't have enough liquidity? Who's holding too much debt.

So it's not about the banking sector alone. It's about who's going to be vulnerable as interest rates rise? And that could be companies. It could be consumers. It could be entire countries.

So I look at this and I say, I'm glad that the Biden administration has taken a firm hand. I'm glad actually that UBS is being forced to buy out Credit Suisse. But I would also say this takes us a step further towards the nationalization, the sort of socialization in some ways of the financial system.

You can argue for a long time about whether that's a good thing or not.

KEILAR: So, Rana, I wonder how much of this turmoil is the result of bad management, I guess the swimming with their shorts off right, as you described there in that quote?

How much is from ineffective regulation? How much is just, hey, this is where we are with inflation? FOROOHAR: Yes, great question.

I think Silicon Valley Bank, to me, that was, hey, we knew interest rates were going to rise. You knew you were going to be in a kind of an uncomfortable long-short position where you were losing on bonds that were eventually going to lose value as rates went up.

That, to me, is a management question. I mean, I would really be asking, if I was looking at that bank, why did folks not start to correct those positions? In terms of Credit Suisse, Matt's right. This is just a weak player. They have had problems for years. I mean, at the end of last year, they were already having some deposit runs.

So this is a case of a very Swiss solution, actually, one bank coming in being, sort of nudged along by the government to buy another one. The question is, is this going to make the big bigger in both the U.S. and in Europe? And what does that mean? I mean, eventually, are you going to kind of end up with a -- almost like a turn-of-the-century system where, you had -- back in 1907, which is what this period reminds me of, in some ways, you had one guy, J.P. Morgan, sort of saying, hey, I'm the financier of the moment. I'm calling the shots.

In a way, Jamie Dimon is starting to play that role in the U.S. I do see the big getting bigger here, potentially. And I also think that that's going to mean more regulation and a real maybe come-to-Jesus talk about, what kind of financial system do we really want to have?

And that's a talk that's 15 years' overdue.

KEILAR: It certainly is. Even though we can't believe it's been 15 years, it is that long overdue.

Rana, thank you so much for walking us through all of that.

And still to come: Chinese leader Xi Jinping is in Russia for a three-day state visit. What we're learning from his meeting with Vladimir Putin next.

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