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NY Grand Jury Meets As Trump Says He'll Be Arrested Tuesday; DeSantis On Trump Hush Money Case; Real Victims Are New Yorkers; Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi (D-IL) Discusses About China Plan For Ukraine In Ukraine. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 20, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:36]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM and we're so glad you're with us. Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And I'm Boris Sanchez.

Jessica, great to share an afternoon with you, albeit a busy one, right? The nation is bracing to see if an American president is going to be indicted in the coming days. That's never happened in U.S. history, it's unprecedented. And the outcome hinges on what happens inside this courthouse in Manhattan.

Just a short time ago, a man who may be one of the final grand jury witnesses in a case against former President Donald Trump arrived at the courthouse. This car, transporting Robert Costello. He's appearing at the request of Trump's attorneys and he is there essentially to contradict Michael Cohen, Trump's former fixer.

DEAN: Of course, Cohen is a key witness as the New York District Attorney investigates Trump's alleged role in a hush money scheme to cover up a $130,000 payment in 2016 to adult film star, Stormy Daniels. It was to keep her quiet about an alleged affair with Trump, which he has denied.

But the former president did post online that he expects to be arrested tomorrow and then called for protests and for to supporters to "take our nation back." Republicans are slamming the prosecution as political. And today several House leaders called for the DA Alvin Bragg to testify before Congress, accusing him of prosecutorial abuse.

SANCHEZ: We're covering every angle of this story.

CNN Capitol Hill Reporter, Melanie Zanona is in Orlando at the House Republican retreat.

We're going to start though with CNN's Kara Scannell who's live for us outside the criminal courthouse in Manhattan.

So Kara, take us behind closed doors. What's happening with the grand jury right now? KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Well, Boris, we saw Bob Costello, he is the attorney for Michael Cohen, who worked with Cohen several years ago. We saw him arrive around 1:30 and he's expected to begin his testimony before the grand jury at around two o'clock. So he's been about an hour behind closed doors as far as we know.

But the grand jury process is secret, so we really don't have a lot of clarity into what is going on exactly now behind the scenes. But he's in there. He came forward. He said he - according to a source - he went to the DA's office and went to Trump's attorneys and said he had evidence that would contradict Michael Cohen's testimony.

Now, Cohen, of course, is the key witness, the person who had facilitated these hush money payments and he pleaded guilty to federal charges, saying that the former president had directed him to make these payments, so certainly a key witness. Now, Costello came forward saying that the information he has is contradictory and Trump's attorneys say that what Costello would tell the DA's office and tell the grand jury is that when he was working with Cohen, Cohen said that he was not aware that the former president had committed any crimes and Costello has hundreds of pages of documents with him, including emails all from that time period. And that's what Trump's attorneys had pushed for him to get before that grand jury so they could hear this other testimony, testimony to potentially undermine Michael Cohen's credibility.

Also, in that building behind me is Michael Cohen. We saw him arrive just before 2 pm. He is there on standby as a potential rebuttal witness to go before the grand jury if prosecutors feel they need to do so. So he is also back there waiting to see if they will ask him to do this.

But all of these people that have touched this hush money investigation have been going in meeting with prosecutors over the last several months or meeting with the grand jury. So there are very few witnesses who have knowledge of this left to go. So it really feels like we're getting to a conclusion here, a potential decision of whether to bring those unprecedented charges against a former president.

We're also seeing signs of security picking up around here this morning. We saw the NYPD installing security cameras on some of the light posts. And now the officers have put up barricades around the streets surrounding the courthouse for any possible decision and what may follow for stress. Boris? Jess?

DEAN: Wow. It's amazing to watch that kind of come together.

Melanie, let's go to you now in Florida where House Republicans are gathering. They're promising multiple investigations. They're outraged by this potential arrest of Donald Trump. Tell us what you're learning about that.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes. House Republicans are really turning up the heat on the Manhattan District Attorney Office ahead of a possible Trump indictment. [15:05:02]

Three powerful committee chairmen are demanding both written testimony and documents from Alvin Bragg about his probe into Donald Trump and this hush money payment that he made right before the 2016 election. Republicans are giving him a deadline of March 23rd - that's later this week - to respond. And specifically, they want to know whether any federal funds were used in this Trump investigation and they also want to know whether there's any communication between the Department of Justice and the Manhattan DA.

Republicans really see this as a abuse of power. They said this is an overreach even as they acknowledged, they don't know the full scope of the charges that Trump might be facing. So this really underscores the lengths that Republicans are willing to go to defend the former president and it really is in an extraordinary move for Republicans to be trying to intervene and an ongoing criminal probe. But Republicans are standing by their move, take a listen.

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REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): And then what changed? President Trump announces he's running for president and shazam now they're going to - we're going to - some bookkeeping error from seven years ago whose misdemeanor is now what they're going after, so it makes absolutely no sense.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But you don't know what the charges are against former - the former president.

JORDAN: No, we're going on what you guys have told us. I mean, that's all been reported.

RAJU: But aren't you jumping into conclusions, I mean, he might have broken the law, doesn't that concern you?

JORDAN: We don't think President Trump broke the law at all.

REP. MIKE MCCAUL (R-TX): It's a misdemeanor, so it's not really the crime of the century either. But yes, this thing is going to be - it's going to have political taint to it anyway you spin it.

RAJU: I mean, but it's allegedly falsifying business records to cover up a hush money payment, does that concern you? This - if you can touch on that.

MCCAUL: Yes. Sure. I mean, if a crime was committed, that would concern me. I think the law (inaudible) ...

RAJU: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: Now, this Republican-led effort to investigate the investigators is coming on the first full day of the House Republican policy retreat here in Florida, where they had hoped to focus on their legislative agenda. But instead they are finding themselves playing defense for Donald Trump, which is quite a familiar position for the Republican Party, Jessica and Boris?

DEAN: Yes. It's a rather an evergreen situation. They want to focus on agenda and yet they're talking about former President Donald Trump.

Melanie Zanona in Florida for us, Kara Scannell in New York, thanks to both of you for that reporting.

Let's go now to our legal mind to talk about all of this, Renato Mariotti is a former federal prosecutor.

It's great to see you.

So I just want to talk about what's going on today with this case. Based on what Kara is explaining to us, it's essentially someone's word against someone's word, right, in that - with the grand jury today. And you've got the Trump team asking Bob Costello to come in and essentially refute what Michael Cohen has testified to. Do you think that the DA would have been prepared for something like this? And what do you think the chances of it swaying opinion could be?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's interesting. I don't think the DA was prepared for this. I think it's certainly a creative move. But I think the reason they wouldn't be prepared is because it's not a particularly good one. It is essentially an attempt to try to insert themselves into the grand jury process, but the deck is stacked very heavily in prosecutor's favor. The defense isn't allowed to be there. They can't have their own attorneys there. They're not presenting their own evidence and so on.

And so yes, they can demand that this witness be called, but because they're not really part of that process, I still think the grand jury is going to side with prosecutors. That's usually a safe bet with grand juries and really they kind of let the cat out of the bag.

In other words there's a - now that I'm a defense attorney and I have been for several years, I try to keep my cards close to the vest and only reveal them at the trial. Now they are giving prosecutors a chance to question this witness long before the trial ever occurs.

SANCHEZ: Renato, walk us through the legal theory for an indictment here because it isn't exactly black and white. The DA, Alvin Bragg, is going to have to connect some dots for a potential jury, right?

MARIOTTI: Agree. I think there's some serious questions about the legal charges here. Obviously, we're going only on what is reported as Manu Raju noted in that clip a moment ago. We don't know exactly what the charges look like.

SANCHEZ: Right.

MARIOTTI: But it looks like based on the reporting that there's going to be a misdemeanor charge of falsified business records with the intent to defraud. But that gets turned into a felony under New York law, if there is a - if they - if that falsification of business records which here would be recording the payments to the porn star Stormy Daniels as payments for legal services, which of course they were not if that was done in the furtherance of a second crime.

And here, the crime at least reportedly would be a campaign finance violation with the DA arguing that these hush money payments were really done as a sort of campaign expense to further the campaign because these payments were made in the late stages of the 2016 election. That would be a pretty novel argument, potentially unprecedented and I would expect some significant legal challenges.

[15:10:05]

DEAN: And if you really zoom out for a second, Renato, we have other prosecution against former President Trump. You've got the case down in Georgia, we have federal cases. How do you think this impacts those, if at all, or what do you see playing out?

MARIOTTI: Great question. So those cases are going to go forward. And I actually think this really ups the difficulty for the defense. One thing that's always hard when you're on the defense side is fighting a war on multiple fronts where your client is facing charges in different courtrooms.

And instead of thinking solely about how your words or your actions or your strategy will move the ball forward in that case, you have to also consider how all of those words and actions are going to impact your strategy and your position and all these other cases at the same time.

So Trump is really in a hard mode kind of situation here where his attorneys are going to - unfortunately for him - face a war on multiple fronts, much like R. Kelly or Michael Avenatti or others who faced indictments in multiple jurisdictions.

SANCHEZ: And we should point out just today his attorneys attempted to get the entire Fulton County case dismissed, so we're going to have an update for our viewers later that - this hour.

Renato Mariotti, we got to leave that part of the conversation there. We appreciate you.

Let's turn to the political implications of all of this with Ronald Brownstein, CNN Senior Political Analyst and Senior Editor at The Atlantic and Juliette Kayyem who's a CNN National Security Analyst and the former Assistant Secretary in the Department of Homeland Security

And Juliette, I want to start with a question of security with you because obviously there are serious questions about logistics here, if Donald Trump is going to surrender to a Manhattan courtroom if he is ultimately indicted, it's not just a question of him getting there. There's enormous public interest in this case. Obviously, he's a former president and he's called for protest.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. So let's start with the first one, which is just simply getting a body that's all he is from point A to point B. We know how to do this even if it involves the Secret Service, they certainly know how to do this and they are viewing it as essentially just a transport that we're not - they're not going they're not going to make a big deal out of it.

Yet in New York, of course, they have to secure the facility because of potential protests, because of the public interest. All - a lot of this is going to depend on Trump, because, of course, he can go in without a lot of hoopla, give his name, identification, whatever else and then leave and we're done, right.

And he - the variables, of course, is will Trump want that and will he use this as a means of fundraising and other aspects. And I wrote for The Atlantic, the Secret Service has control, essentially over his movement and it would behoove them to ensure that this does not become a fundraising mechanism for Trump.

I want to just quickly point out, though, the threat environment is not scaring anyone at this stage. I sometimes wonder that if Trump calls an insurrection and no one shows up, is he still Donald Trump at this stage. His calls for rallying violence, you're getting pushback, for example, from McCarthy - I should say, protests, he's not saying violence.

But also in social media, you're just not seeing the kind of galvanizing that you saw January 6th. There's too many people in jail. There's - people have moved on and they also worry about if they show up, whether it's a false flag and that they'll get arrested by the FBI.

So in a weird way, Trump's conspiracy theories are now playing against him. So I'm not too worried about whether we're confronting a January 6 again, there'll be hoopla, but it won't be of the January 6 kind.

DEAN: Yes, it's such an interesting point.

Ron, an indictment is going to test this truism of the current Republican Party in the age of Trump that his grip is so strong that his most fervent supporters have to support him, that lawmakers and officials feel like they must appease him in order to preserve their political careers. We've already seen the House GOP jumping out in front of this calling on the Manhattan DA to testify to see if there were any federal funds used in this.

We've seen - as Melanie Zanona was just reporting - a number of them really batting down how important this is, how serious this is. Yet the fact remains that if he is indicted, this would be a first in American history. Is America ready for this?

RONALD BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, thinking about the impact on the Republican Party first and the country overall, two things can be true at the same time.

I mean, one; as you noted in your question, I mean, we are seeing an extraordinary - what we're watching unfold from the House Republicans is extraordinary. I mean, they are actively looking to, in effect, intimidate a district attorney with these demands for testimony and documents who is engaged in an ongoing criminal inquiry. [15:15:06]

And while they have kind of taken the step away from Trump in kind of downplaying the call for protests, overall, the language that you are hearing from House GOP leaders is, I think, indelibly tattooing them further as the party of Trump immediately after an election when so many Republican strategist came out and said that part of the reason Republicans underperform was that they were too closely identified with Trump.

Now, the second piece, though, whether this in fact helps him in a Republican presidential primary as his most ardent supporters - I believe Marjorie Taylor Greene tweeted that. I think that's a much more open question, because we do see that there is a substantial portion of the GOP electorate now that questions whether Trump can win again.

And certainly for his most ardent supporters, this will be proof of his argument that they are trying - they are going after me because they really want to silence you. But for that other piece of the party that is already questioning whether he can win again, I think this is just more reason for them to be concerned and we see some evidence of that in our new CNN polling that came out last week.

SANCHEZ: And Juliette, to Ron's point about a potential attempt from members of Trump's party to intimidate DAs or investigators looking into the former president, do you really think that might have a chilling effect on their work?

KAYYEM: No. I mean, I think - I worry more about the physical well being of people involved with this case, the judge, jurors, of course, the DA and the District Attorney's Office, you've already seen Bragg come out. That - because what you're worried about is sort of the one crazy person, right, and not a - an apparatus going after them, but the one crazy person who hears this and goes after someone involved with that.

And so you're going to if not already see the increased - what we call personal protection - is just focused on the individuals on this. To Ron's point, I couldn't agree more. Your - the lack of interest in protest, this interest is - from someone who thinks about radicalization rather than politics is interesting to me.

Part of that, as I said, is because Trump no longer has a get out of jail free card. I mean, he just cannot help these people if they rally and then protest. And so what you're really focused on is I think those individuals who might be radicalized by Trump. But once again, we're not seeing the kind of organization that made people like me very nervous leading into January 6, people getting into cars, people going to D.C.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

KAYYEM: That's not happening now.

DEAN: And, Ron, before we let you all go, I do want to talk to you a little bit about how this could potentially impact 2024. We saw the Florida governor, Ron DeSantis. Today, kind of trying to thread this needle where he didn't out and - I mean, potential presidential contender, maybe a likely rival for Donald Trump, we could say. But he's trying to thread this needle, where he really attacked the prosecution, the Manhattan DA, but really stopped well short of providing any sort of support for former President Trump. What do you make of his response to this?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. Well, look, the Republican candidates have been extremely cautious. I mean, they have almost all immediately preemptively condemned the prosecution. We saw Asa Hutchinson who's a former - a federal prosecutor and governor say we got to let the legal process play out. No, one more central to the Republican race has done that.

DeSantis' basic strategy is basically to say I will give you Trumpism without Trump. I will fight all of the cultural fights that he's fighting without dragging all the baggage that he does, and you saw him trying to walk that tightrope by criticizing the investigation, but also making kind of a snide comment about hush money to a porn star.

The question remains, can Republican candidate - Donald Trump is the dominant figure in the Republican Party. And while there are more voters who are open to an alternative than there probably weren't in 2016, they're not necessarily going to get there naturally on their own.

If you want to replace him as the Republican nominee, you're probably going to have to make a more explicit case as to why Republican voters should pass him over than anyone has been willing to make so far, including DeSantis. Today, they're still operating on the theory that they don't want to anger or alienate Trump's face because they will eventually lead them. But that kind of thinking is what allowed Trump to win with only about 40 percent of the vote in 2016.

DEAN: Right. That's right and who can get out of a primary.

All right. Ronald Brownstein and Juliette Kayyem, we're going to have to leave it there. Thanks so much for your insight and expertise. We appreciate it.

Just days after an arrest warrant was issued for Vladimir Putin, China's Xi Jinping travels to Moscow to meet with the Russian president and the top of the agenda, the war in Ukraine. How the U.S. is reacting, that's next.

SANCHEZ: And as regional banks came under pressure, President Biden reportedly got in touch with the Oracle of Omaha, Warren Buffett.

[15:20:05]

What he may be asking the billionaire for when we come back.

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[15:24:13]

SANCHEZ: The Russian president got a big diplomatic boost today just days after being accused of war crimes by the International Criminal Court. Chinese president, Xi Jinping, is now in Moscow for a three day summit with Vladimir Putin.

DEAN: It's Xi's first visit to Russia since Putin invaded Ukraine and it comes as Beijing tries to portray itself as an honest peace broker that could help into the war. But the U.S. is skeptical warning that Xi's visit to Moscow gives only diplomatic cover to Russian war crimes. Biden officials are also watching very closely for signs China may provide lethal aid for Russia's war.

SANCHEZ: With us now to discuss is Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi of Illinois. He's the ranking Democrat on the House Select Committee on China, also a member of the Intelligence Committee.

[15:25:03]

Congressman, we're grateful that you're sharing your afternoon with us.

Is there any aspect of this 12-point Chinese plan for peace with Ukraine that you stand behind?

REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Well, I think some parts of it are laudable, but I think it would be - pardon me - March Madness to think that this particular plan would yield peace when it doesn't even call for the pullback of Russian troops to any degree. And so what it ends up doing is it basically ratifies the status quo, which is completely unacceptable.

DEAN: And Congressman, in your opinion, what do you think China's end goal is with these meetings over the next couple of days?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I think they're trying to burnish their reputation as a peacemaker. I think their big audience are the Europeans. But every time that the CCP and President Xi Jinping want to try to court the Europeans to try to help revive their economy, every time they say to Vladimir Putin - or President Xi Jinping calls him "dear friend," I think it sends shutters down the spines of European officials.

At the end of the day, I understand that President Xi recognizes Europe is the biggest destination for Chinese goods and the biggest source of investment in the People's Republic of China. But I don't see them running toward his corner when he makes moves like this toward Vladimir Putin.

SANCHEZ: Congressman, have you seen any intel that indicates that Beijing is taking any step closer to sending lethal aid to Russia?

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I can't discuss classified information. But I think it's fair to say there's a deep level of concern about the CCP and the Chinese Communist Party basically considering doing this. It would really escalate the war. And I think that President Xi has to recognize that there would be immediate sanctions, not only from the United States, but from those - precisely those European countries that he's trying to court to revive his economy. So we would respectfully tell him, don't go down this path.

DEAN: And, Congressman, you're the ranking member on this House Select Committee that's focused on China, which frankly has been one of the few bipartisan efforts we've really seen that has made a lot of progress in this Congress. Do you - what do you think the American people need to know about the CCP, about the Chinese government, how they're positioning themselves in the world and what are you all trying to help explain, because as a member of that and also the House Intelligence Committee, you're privy to a lot of information.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, I think that what the American people need to know is why this committee was created. It was basically created to assess the challenges that the CCP poses with regard to our economy, with regard to our national security and our technological security and to then try to usher legislation through other committees of jurisdiction to deal with those challenges.

And so we don't seek a war, we don't seek a cold war or a hot war or any hostilities of any kind with the People's Republic of China. However, we do need to protect our interests as Americans and we also need to deter any aggression by the CCP toward us, our friends, our allies, our partners.

DEAN: All right. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, thanks so much for your time today. We appreciate it.

SANCHEZ: Thank you, sir.

KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: The Manhattan DA is far from Trump's only legal entanglements right now. We alluded to this earlier in this hour. Georgia Prosecutors are now considering racketeering and conspiracy charges tied to his attempts to overturn the Peach State's 2020 election results. We'll tell you what CNN sources are saying about this straight ahead.

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