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Putin And Xi Sign Agreement At Moscow Summit, Deepening Relationship; U.S. To Speed Up Delivery Of Tanks, Patriot Missile System To Ukraine; Trump Expects His Arrest Today As NY DA Probes Hush-Money Scheme. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired March 21, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in Washington, DC. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Great to be with you, Jessica. I'm Boris Sanchez. We're thrilled that you're sharing an afternoon with us.

There is plenty going on, especially internationally. The eyes of the world on the Kremlin for day two of a high-stakes summit in Moscow that has just wrapped up with Russian President Vladimir Putin calling his meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping successful. Today, the two leaders signing a joint declaration, deepening their partnership. And this summit obviously comes at a critical time for the war in Ukraine. There are strong indications now that Russia and China are moving closer, both economically and militarily.

DEAN: Xi is framing himself as a possible peace broker. And Putin now says China's proposal could be the basis for ending the war. But the U.S. and Western allies remain deeply skeptical. Today, NATO Secretary General said there are "signs that Russia has requested lethal aid from China" but added they don't yet see evidence that weapons are being delivered.

We have team coverage on this. CNN's Ivan Watson is in Ukraine. But let's begin with CNN's Will Ripley in Taiwan. Will, what more do we know about the talks in Moscow today?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, there was a line from Vladimir Putin as they were signing these documents, deepening their partnership that really summed up the reason why these two are getting together. Why Xi Jinping, the most powerful Chinese leader since Mao, picked a guy that is, you know, potentially facing war crimes trial at some point down the road? He's a global pariah, heavily sanctioned by the West. And Xi Jinping is taking a lot of heat from the West for his support, his no-limits partnership of Vladimir Putin, which was announced even before the war began and is now strengthening through the war.

I mean, China has been you know, bolstering Russia's economy, protecting them in many ways from the impact of sanctions by buying Russian oil, by selling things that are sanctioned by the West, including high-tech microchips. They've been selling parts that can be used for military purposes. Whether they're going to take that to the next level and give them ammunition or military equipment has yet to be seen. And it certainly wouldn't be a big announcement about that.

But the reason why Xi is favoring Putin is because these guys have the same ideology. And they believe that the U.S. world order that has been in place since the end of World War Two more than 70 years, should be disrupted. They think that their system, their autocratic system is superior, that they are what the world needs moving forward in the future, and so they're banding together. China making Russia more stable and counting on Russia's support if China decides to make similar moves down the road, for example, here on this self-ruled democracy of Taiwan. So, listen to Vladimir Putin specifically talking about this. Talking about his opposition to countries that interfere with what his country wants.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA: (Speaking in a foreign language)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Russia's and China's views are convergent and very close. China and Russia are resolutely against any states and blocs violating the interests of other countries for the sake of military, political, or economic benefit. We believe that many of the points on the peace plan put forward by China are consistent with the Russian approaches and can be taken as the basis of a peaceful settlement when the West and Kyiv are ready for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIPLEY: Clearly, that doesn't sound like a neutral party, even though China is claiming that they're there you know to talk about peace. They've presented this 12-Point peace plan, which would include, by the way, an end to Western sanctions, negotiations that would force Ukraine to give up the territory that Russia stole, and even a NATO pullback from its eastern borders. Clearly, these are non-starters. China and Russia know it. And if China were to give Russia weapons to help them on the battlefield, the goal could be some analysts say to give Russia an advantage when they come to the negotiations, to put them in a better position.

SANCHEZ: And notable, Will, that there are multiple references to territorial integrity in that peace plan, something that connotes perhaps foreshadowing for, as you noted, where you are in Taiwan. Will, thank you so much.

Let's move to Ivan Watson now. He's live for us in Kharkiv, Ukraine. Ivan, a Ukrainian official is telling CNN that discussions are now underway for Chinese President Xi to hold a call with President Zelenskyy to talk about the peace plan. Bring us up to speed on that.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, so China's definition of neutrality when it comes to the Ukraine war, which Beijing doesn't call a war it calls it a crisis, its definition of neutrality does not include discussions between the Chinese leader and the Ukraine president.

[14:05:10]

They have not spoken since Russia invaded here a year and a half ago -- sorry 13 months ago. Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping have been speaking almost, you know, every month or so. So, the Ukrainians, though, they cannot afford to reject China's call for a peace plan out of hand. They are keeping the door open. The Ukrainians are saying they're up for a conversation between Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and the Chinese leader. But that hasn't come to fruition yet. So, they're waiting for that to kind of come together somehow.

Ukrainian officials have also said, if you want a peace plan, well, here's your starting point, withdraw Russian troops from territory that they invaded, largely destroyed, and occupied since February of last year, then we can talk about peace. And that hasn't really been formally stated at any time by China, which also has never basically said yes, Russia started this war, Russia invaded. Instead, China's position through state media has been to argue that NATO and the U.S. somehow provoked this Russian invasion in the first place.

In the meantime, Ukrainian officials are saying they're looking closely at the weapons, the ammunition that the Russians are using on the battlefield. And so far, they have not seen any signs that China is actively arguing -- arming the Russians. In the meantime, Boris and Jessica, you have this amazing split screen that there was a surprise visit to the Ukrainian Capitol today. The Prime Minister of Japan Fumio Kishida showed up unexpectedly. He didn't make it public for security reasons. He's meeting with the Ukrainian president today, the leader of the third-largest economy in the world, another major power in Asia here while Xi Jinping is meeting with the Russian president, showing his support for Ukraine. Even as Europe has pledged another 1.5 billion euros to support Ukraine in its fight against its much larger enemy.

SANCHEZ: Yes, a major moment there, no doubt. We should also point out that Xi has now met with Vladimir Putin some 40 times. He has not yet directly had a conversation with Volodymyr Zelenskyy to this point. Ivan Watson in Kharkiv, thank you so much.

We're also following new developments on a plan to speed up the shipments of U.S. weapons to Ukraine. Let's take you to Fort Sill Oklahoma now because CNN's Natasha Bertrand is there and she has new reporting on this plan to get tanks and Patriot missile systems to Ukraine faster than originally planned.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes. Boris, a lot of developments here today. We're actually at Fort Sill where we just saw Ukrainian soldiers training on the Patriot air defense system. And we learned that in addition to the fact that the Pentagon is likely to announce today that they're going to speed up that delivery of Abrams tanks to Ukraine, we're also learning that the Patriot training, that air defense training, you can actually see a decommissioned one right behind me here. That is also going to be sped up because the Ukrainians were just so proficient, according to the U.S. defense officials that we spoke to here at learning this system that they were able to train them in a much shorter period of time than they had anticipated.

Just a lot has really gone into the last 10 weeks of training here of roughly 65 Ukrainian soldiers that came all the way from Ukraine to this base here in Oklahoma to train. And then the ages we should note, of the soldiers that have been training with the U.S. military trainers here. They range in age from 19 to 67. So, a really wide range here.

But the bottom line is that the U.S. now is going to be sending these patriots in the next few weeks into Ukraine just after these Ukrainian soldiers that have been here at Fort Sill go to Europe to wrap up their training. They're going to be sent back into Ukraine with two Patriot systems. One of those will be U.S. provided and one of them will be provided jointly by Germany and the Netherlands.

So, the U.S. clearly trying to get the Ukrainians in a good position to launch that anticipated spring counteroffensive with these heavy Western weapons that they have promised to the Ukrainians that the Ukrainians were frankly, a -- fearful that they would not get in time to launch that counter-offensive and eject the Russians from their territory. Now, it seems the U.S. is really making a concerted effort to send not only the Abrams tanks, which are very complicated systems but also the Patriots, which are also very complicated. It typically takes several months to learn on. But they believe that the Ukrainians have proven so proficient at learning these systems that they can send them a lot sooner, Boris.

DEAN: All right. Natasha Bertrand for us in Oklahoma. Fascinating there. And that timeline is certainly going to make a difference for Ukraine. And with us now to discuss this is Jill Dougherty. She's a CNN contributor and our former Moscow bureau chief. also with us CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. Good afternoon to both of you. Thanks for being here.

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Jill, I want to start with you. We know that the Secretary of State Tony Blinken has said that Xi is providing what he calls diplomatic cover for Putin. We know that Xi wants to be viewed as this peacemaker around the world that they both want to disrupt this current world order. With that as the backdrop, what do you make of today's developments and this new declaration of furthering their partnership together?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know I'd have to say, to me, the thing is read the fine print. Because there are a lot of words that were said today very broad statements. For example, this is -- you know, we know that it's a no-limits partnership. And today, they said it is the highest ever level of that.

So, there's a lot of hyperbole. But I think if you look at what's happening, Xi comes to Moscow for a number of different reasons, primarily economic, China needs oil and needs gas. And you know, in a sense, you could say has, that's a terrible pun, but it has -- they have Putin over a barrel because Putin needs to sell that oil and gas, as the markets in Europe are drying up. So, Russia has been selling that crucial -- those crucial combat commodities but at a discount.

So, I think China comes, presents the peace plan, Xi, as you've said, does want to look like the peacekeeper. And in fairness, they just brokered an agreement, a reestablishment of relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So, there are a lot of moving parts internationally. That's why I think this visit by the Japanese Prime Minister is very, very interesting. But I do think in the end, pretty much the meeting is about economics, and words, but not very specific words about Ukraine and any possible settlement.

SANCHEZ: Colonel, Jill brings up a really interesting point about how much this meeting has to do with China's access to energy. And obviously, that played a big role in last week's securing of this deal between Saudi Arabia and Iran by China. How much of this is about China having access, as Vladimir Putin put it to uninterrupted oil supplies, as it continues to rise in the world?

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Boris, I think it has everything to do with that. China is very much dependent on external sources of energy, and nothing better than to secure your supplies in three different areas, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Russia. So, the Chinese are very much looking at the Russians as a major source of not only energy but also other natural resources. And with that, you know, you've got the possibility of China being able to if it needs to, at some point, isolate itself from the rest of the world.

Even though their trade volume with the United States, for example, is higher than it is with Russia currently, it still becomes very important for the Chinese to have that safety valve, should they try to do something with Taiwan, and should they further support the Russians in the combat in Ukraine.

DEAN: And, Colonel, if we can just stay with you for a second? Because I'm curious what your take is on this information that we're getting from the NATO general who says there are signs that Russia has requested lethal aid from China in its fight in Ukraine, but that so far, they don't see any evidence of any weapons being delivered. How serious, do you think this is? Is this different than what we perhaps already kind of thought might be going on behind the scenes or do you think this is new?

LEIGHTON: Jessica, I think that it's pretty clear that the Chinese want to provide some kind of aid to the Russians. I -- and the military that they would provide, a -- you know, the difference between lethal and non-lethal, you know, to be a bit semantic at this point. But the basic idea is that the Chinese want to keep the Russians involved in Ukraine.

It gives them a way to put the Russians in a certain area. It also makes the Russians a bit of a junior partner because what we've seen is the weakness of the Russian military. And it also frees the Chinese to potentially do things in Taiwan. So, that becomes, I think, their major, major goal in this particular area.

SANCHEZ: And, Jill, I'm fascinated by the language here, especially coming from Xi Jinping. He recently talked about China's problems being caused by the U.S. strategy of containment. That's Cold War language. And today, he essentially said that China stands ready to guard the world order. Are we in a new Cold War?

DOUGHERTY: Well, I don't think with China, we necessarily are. I mean, it's a different type of competition slash conflict, especially with Russia. It's, you know, conflict in that sense in Ukraine.

[14:15:04]

But I think what he's getting at and what Putin is getting at, and very directly, is that they feel that the world order that was created after World War Two dominated by the United States is not fair, that the United States tells the rest of the world what to do and that that time is over. And there's a new -- a new era. In fact, they've been talking about this new era, in which it will -- there are so many words, by the way, that I remember, over the years that the Russians have used, multipolar world, now the unipolar world is -- was by the Americans.

So, what they want is essentially no one to tell them what to do. They can do what they want domestically, and you know what that means in both countries and that they can do pretty much what they want to internationally. So, they agree on that and they do not want the United States setting any rules or controlling anything.

SANCHEZ: And that has to be a huge concern if you're a big fan of democracy. Jill Dougherty, Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you both.

DEAN: As a New York Grand Jury weighs whether to indict Donald Trump in a hush-money scheme involving Stormy Daniels, law enforcement from New York to Washington are on alert for possible protests.

SANCHEZ: Plus, disturbing new surveillance video and 911 calls that are shedding light on that deadly encounter between this Virginia man and multiple officers. We're going to bring you that just moments away.

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DEAN: Today is the day former President Donald Trump said he would be arrested. And while it's not clear when the New York grand jury will make its decision, a senior law enforcement source is telling CNN any court appearance by Trump would likely not occur before next week. As the nation waits to see if history is made and an American president is in fact indicted, authorities in New York and Washington are preparing.

SANCHEZ: Yes. You could see these new barricades being put up around the New York courthouse and the U.S. Capitol preparing for possible protests. The Manhattan DA is looking into Trump's alleged role in that hush-money scheme during his 2016 campaign, essentially to pay off a porn star.

CNN's Paula Reid joins us now live from New York. And, Paula, yesterday the grand jury heard from Bob Costello. And his testimony was supposed to contradict a central figure in the case, Trump's former attorney, his self-described fixer, Michael Cohen. And Costello apparently told the grand jury that the DA had cherry-picked documents?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Following his testimony, Costello gave a little mini press availability and answered questions from reporters. But he had appeared before the grand jury at the request of Trump's attorneys. And they are allowed to make these requests particularly when a defendant is likely to be indicted.

Prosecutors granted this request. Costello was before the grand jury yesterday, where again, his role was to discuss Michael Cohen's credibility because Cohen is the witness at the center of all of this. And Costello previously was a legal adviser to Cohen. So, he went before the grand jury and said that during his conversations with Cohen back in 2018 when federal investigators were looking into this hush-money scheme, Cohen told him he says that the hush-money was his idea. And, of course, that contradicts subsequent statements that Cohen has made about this probe.

Now, as I said, after his testimony, Costello answered questions from reporters. And you see the contrast between how he portrays things and how his former client says things happen. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT COSTELLO, GRAND JURY WITNESS & MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER LEGAL ADVISER: The only thing I'm doing is trying to tell the truth to the grand jurors. Listen, if they want to go after Donald Trump and they have solid evidence, so be it. But Michael Cohen is far from solid evidence. This guy by any prosecutor standard and I used to be deputy chief of the criminal division in the Southern District of New York, I wouldn't have touched the guy like Michael Cohen, especially if he's a convicted perjurer.

MICHAEL COHEN, GRAND JURY WITNESS & TRUMP'S FORMER ATTORNEY: There's so many things about his statement, which is untrue. He is exactly who he is. And that, of course, would be Rudy Giuliani's attorney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Both men making their arguments in the court of public opinion there. Now, Cohen was also at court but he was not called before the grand jury, where he's already testified twice, to rebut Costello's testimony. Of course, the big question now is, well, what happens next? And it's not exactly clear. We don't know if there are more witnesses and when the indictment -- the grand jury may vote on a possible indictment.

SANCHEZ: And the waiting game continues. Paula Reid from New York, thank you so much.

Let's expand the conversation now with Dave Aronberg. He's a state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida. We also have with us CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, a former federal prosecutor. Appreciate you both being with us. First, I want to play more sound from Bob Costello talking about his interview. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: I wanted to get those materials that I gave to the U.S. Attorney's Office and sat for a two-hour interview with them back in 2019, after which you may have noticed the Southern District of New York didn't do any business with Michael Cohen. There's a reason for that. He's totally unreliable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Dave, how much does Michael Cohen's credibility have to do with why the fed -- the SDNY dropped the case or didn't pursue charges against Trump in this case?

DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: Well, Michael Cohen is the linchpin of the case here. And so, I think there is a little bit of truth in there that they didn't like Michael Cohen as a key witness. But also, from Geoffrey Berman's book that he wrote from his time as the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, he said that the reason why the Feds dropped the investigation into Donald Trump was because Bill Barr told them to do so. And also, remember, the Department of Justice has an internal policy against indicting a sitting president. So, then the big question is, why didn't the SDNY then prosecute Trump for this after Bill Barr left?

[14:25:04]

And I think the answer is that by that time, you had January 6, and so there are a lot of bigger fish to fry involving Donald Trump than this matter. So, I don't think Costello's explanation really holds water. And I don't think he made a very good witness in front of the grand jury, which is why the prosecutors didn't even call Michael Cohen back as a rebuttal witness.

DEAN: Yes. And, Elliot, I wanted to ask you about that because we did -- they didn't call back Michael Cohen after hearing that testimony from Costello. What do you read into that? And also, what do you think -- how do you think the next several days will play out?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it's hard to know why prosecutors choose to call a rebuttal witness or not. Now, they may have found that nothing new came up in Costello's testimony that they needed to rebut or they felt that you know if they went through with trying to rebut the testimony that would have caused themselves more trouble than they needed. It's just hard to know what was set in there. At the -- in the end, it ultimately helps prosecutors to get and to have contradictory evidence on the record because it's going to come up at trial anyway. So, at least they're prepared for the kinds of witnesses that the defense might put on.

Now, in terms, Jessica, of your question. With respect to the next few days, we'll have to wait and see. Now, signs seem to suggest that an indictment is coming but none of us in the public actually know that that's the case. You know, the prosecutors seem to have taken a number of steps that would indicate they're charging someone with a crime, but again, we just don't know right now.

SANCHEZ: And, Elliot, staying with you. I want to go deeper into the reporting that we're getting about the thinking that the DA is going through about potential charges against Trump, one of them relies on this statute that indicates that if you falsify any kind of financial record to perpetrate or cover up a crime, that in itself is a felony and it could be the highest level of crime that they can pursue against Trump. But that statute, it's unclear whether that includes a federal crime right, Elliot?

WILLIAMS: That's exactly right, Boris. So, I -- you know the state of New York, where I'm admitted to practice, that -- it's silent. New York law is silent as to whether the crime needs to be a -- only a New York State law or a federal law. Now, that's the kind of question of look, it's pretty clear it says the word crime, and crime can be a state crime or a federal crime.

SANCHEZ: Right.

WILLIAMS: But that's a question that has to be resolved by New York State courts. And well, I would be -- I would assume that if this -- if that's the direction that the prosecutors go, that the defendant would then challenge it in New York court, and it'll -- you know it'll work its way through the courts there.

Again, the language is pretty clear. It uses the word crime, but it just doesn't have that one adjective before, whether federal or state. But that's not unique in any law.

DEAN: And, Dave, as a state prosecutor, you're very familiar with what happens after you indict somebody and how that plays out. This obviously would be history-making if a former president was indicted. How do you expect this to be different?

ARONBERG: Oh, Jessica, it would be historic, but it won't be historic for long because I suspect after this indictment, Trump will be indicted in Fulton County, and then by the Feds over the Mar-a-Lago documents and possibly over January 6. I think the question for me is what happens after the indictment? Does Trump truly self-surrender like his lawyer says he will?

I mean, after all, his people also said he would leave voluntarily after he lost -- if he lost the election. And he didn't. And his lawyer said that he had returned all the documents to the Feds upon request, which he didn't. And so, I don't know if he's going to self- surrender.

And if he doesn't, then it poses a very interesting political question because then the question of extradition falls on the desk of Ron DeSantis, Florida's governor, and Trump's number one political enemy right now. And so, things could get very interesting very soon.

DEAN: Yes, that is a fascinating point, indeed. Dave Aronberg and Elliot Williams, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon. We appreciate it. And just a programming reminder that tonight Pamela Brown and some guests will explore how we got here with the multiple legal cases involving former President Trump. Inside The Trump Investigations, airs tonight at nine o'clock Eastern.

SANCHEZ: There's another big legal case we got to talk about this afternoon. Right now, Fox News and Dominion voting are duking it out in court. The network is getting hit with a new lawsuit too, filed by a fox producer, alleging that she was coerced by Fox lawyers. We have details on that next.

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