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Trump Potential Arrest Fuels Sporadic Online Calls For Violence; NATO Chief: "Signs" Russia Request Lethal Aid From China; Ukrainian Official: Talks Underway For Possible Zelenskyy-Xi Call. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 21, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: It is the top of the hour and you are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. We're grateful that you're sharing an afternoon with us. I'm Boris Sanchez.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Boris, it's great to be with you. Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean.

And let's get you to New York where barricades are up, some protesters are out and it's all in response to a former president's prediction, Donald Trump, saying he'll be arrested today and directing his supporters to "protest and take back our nation."

Officials say since his online post, the FBI and other federal authorities have seen an uptick in violent rhetoric calling for civil war, but nothing near the level they say before the January 6th Capitol riot. The Manhattan DA meantime is not commenting about any arrests, but it does appear his investigation into what Trump may have done to keep an alleged affair quiet during his 2016 campaign is winding down.

SANCHEZ: Yes. A New York grand jury heard from what may have been a final witness in the case yesterday, this man Bob Costello. Today, Trump repeated his rebuke of the investigations against him including New York's probe into that $130,000 hush money payment to adult film actress, Stormy Daniels.

Let's go to Manhattan now and CNN's Kara Scannell who's live outside the criminal courthouse in Manhattan. Kara tell us about yesterday's Grand Jury witness Bob Costello. He said that he was there to discredit the key witness in this case, Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Boris. I mean, not only the key witness in this case, but also Costello's former client, Michael Cohen. So he said that he was going in to meet with the grand jury to provide testimony that would undercut Cohen's testimony or at least call into question some of his credibility.

So Costello arrived, testified for about three hours. He provided prosecutors more than 300 emails and documents that he said he thought that the prosecutors had cherry picked their questions to him and he said that he would have liked them to ask him other things.

Now, Costello afterwards had said that his main purpose there, his goal was to undercut Cohen and Cohen later on MSNBC defended himself. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT COSTELLO, GRAND JURY WITNESS & MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER LEGAL ADVISER: Listen, if they want to go after Donald Trump and they have solid evidence, so be it, but Michael Cohen is far from solid evidence. I wouldn't have touched the guy like Michael Cohen, especially if he's convicted perjurer.

MICHAEL COHEN, FMR. PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: I have truth. I have the documentation. Let me rephrase that. The district attorney has the documentation in order to validate every single statement that I've made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCANNELL: Now, Cohen was on standby yesterday, potentially to go and as a rebuttal witness and testify before the grand jury. He was - he never was called to go in and he said yesterday that he did not think that he would be called back. All as we're waiting for a decision on whether to charge the former president by the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg. There certainly is some crowds swarming around here, as people wait in anticipation to see what is going to happen. Boris, Jessica?

DEAN: And Kara, on that note, let's talk for just a second about security. We've seen the various precautions that they're taking, but walk us through those and explain what's being done in case Donald Trump is in fact indicted.

SCANNELL: Well, I mean, right now, the NYPD has a lot more uniformed officers on the street. We've seen a big uptick in presence here outside of the courthouse where we are. They said that there are no credible threats. This is just something that they're doing to increase their presence here.

I mean, this is a very busy area. It has really filled out over the past couple of days, but it is mostly media that's here waiting to see what is going to happen in this historic case, in this historic moment.

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There have been a handful of people here that have had signs up, but it really is very calm. It's just a big media presence and that's where we're seeing this also increased level of security just because you never know what can happen. Jessica, Boris?

DEAN: Sure. All right. Kara Scannell for us in New York, thanks so much for that reporting and that update. And with us now to further expand this conversation contributor, John

Dean, who was White House Counsel for President Nixon. And he, of course, cooperated with investigators during Watergate and was a key witness against Nixon. John, it's great to see you, thanks for joining us today.

We've certainly never seen a president under indictment, this would be a first for an American president and obviously, you played that key role during Watergate, but that didn't even go up to kind of this level to escalate this far. Can you put into perspective for us what it will mean if there is in fact an indictment against a former president or perhaps multiple indictments with these other cases as well?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think what it's going to show, Jessica, is that presidents are just like everybody else particularly when they're out of office. It's a very convoluted memo that protects them while they're in office as the head of the executive branch and who can you replace that with, you can't elevate a vice president while a president is still around, a lot of complex legal issues, protect the president while he's in office.

Those don't apply after he's out and that's where we are now. So while it's unprecedented, it's not really unusual. They've had vice presidents who have been charged, Spiro Agnew during my time. Many members of the House and Senate have been charged.

So I think this is just regular business. It's unfortunate, but it's not highly unusual in - given Mr. Trump's behavior.

SANCHEZ: And, John, I want to ask you to step into the district attorney shoes for a moment because Alvin Bragg is relying on Michael Cohen to be his star witness. And as we saw with Bob Costello, yesterday, the defense is probably - if Trump is indicted, probably going to attack Cohen's credibility.

J DEAN: Well, I've been in that role of star witness. I was on the stand in 10 days in the case against Nixon's top former aides and it's a heavy load to carry. And the cross examination will be lively. But when you're telling the truth and you have corroboration as here with Michael, I had Nixon tapes that corroborate a lot of my testimony, it was my word against one of them and then the tapes came out and corroborated what I had earlier testified to.

So it not a - an undoable job, you just look at the jury, tell them what you know and the jury will make its decision.

DEAN: And, John, we've heard from House Republicans who have jumped to defend the former president. They're even asking the Manhattan DA - they're requesting that he come testify to see if federal funds were used in this. Do you think that is the appropriate response from them? It's probably not surprising, but it is a pretty aggressive response to this.

J DEAN: It's pretty disappointing, actually. I was the ones counsel of that committee and this is such unprecedented action by the Congress to try to meddle with a local prosecutor's case, just because a former - high level government official is involved. It's a very bad precedent.

I think they've - they're going to have some feedback on this. It is not going to be good politically for them. I think it's a stupid move, actually and hopefully they'll pull back and not proceed.

SANCHEZ: And John is speaking specifically about Bob Costello and his testimony yesterday, given what he told the press right after his appearance before the grand jury. Did you hear anything that would make you perhaps think twice about presenting an indictment against the former president? Do you think what he laid out was strong enough to contradict Michael Cohen?

J DEAN: To the contrary, when I heard that he brought documents with him that he had emails, some 300 emails, but only got question on a few of them, I thought what a gift he's given the prosecutors. He knows that they know everything he knows or has a documentary evidence to try to support. And they've already looked at a lot of that.

So they're not going to - they didn't call Michael in, they didn't - they needed any rebuttal. I think they've only strengthened the - I think, Costello has strengthened the prosecution's case, because they know he's not particularly dangerous witness.

SANCHEZ: John Dean, appreciate your perspective. Hope you'll come back in the next few days if there is an indictment and this waiting game finally ends, John, thank you so much.

J DEAN: Thank you, both.

SANCHEZ: Of course, we want to get some political perspective now from Margaret Talev.

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She's a Senior Contributor in Axios and the director of the Democracy, Journalism and Citizenship Institute at Syracuse University.

Margaret, love having you on not only for your perspective, but also because I get to shut out Syracuse University, go Orange. So, Margaret, what is your read on why Donald Trump made this odd prediction that he was going to get arrested today?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think he heard the news reporting and thought there was something to it and wanted to get out ahead of it. Twofold, number one to try to rally the House GOP troops around him and see how his prospective rivals would handle it. And number two, to begin a pretty systematic campaign of trying to discredit the Manhattan prosecutor move, watched all of that play out in a pretty short amount of time, at least the efforts for that to happen.

You may notice a trend in the last few days, because there has been a systematic effort to discredit everyone around this by the former president and his people, everyone from his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, to the DA, Alvin Bragg, to Gov. DeSantis just in case things go in that direction.

So I think the former president is showing that he's concerned and he wants at least in the court of public opinion and his own GOP base for the legitimacy, the merits of this possible action to be undercut before it even happens.

DEAN: Yes. Discrediting everyone around him kind of a page out of his own playbook there. And you mentioned the Florida governor, Ron DeSantis, of course, a potential 2024 candidate that would run against former President Trump who - we must remind everyone is currently a 2024 candidate.

We heard from DeSantis yesterday, Margaret, and it was very telling kind of how he tried to thread that needle. And he talked about how he really pushed back against the investigation itself, but then he also kind of took a chance to kind of take some digs at Donald Trump and kind of essentially the baggage that he's carrying with him. How do you think this is going to affect the 2024 race?

TALEV: Yes, I think it's a real departure from what we saw in the 2016 race where there was accredited GOP field. But everyone was still essentially playing by the institutional rules with guardrails on civility and how you treat fellow candidates.

And as Trump turned up the heat, really none of his rivals from Jeb Bush to Marco Rubio to Chris Christie, nobody could kind of figure out how to punch back and Ron DeSantis, before he's actually been announced, is saying I'm not afraid of you and trying to get out in front and to remind the piece of the Republican base that he would be competing for against Donald Trump to say to them is the former president with all of this baggage, who you really want to be your front runner.

So it has a different flavor and feel, it's making some Republicans quite nervous, including Lindsey Graham, who's been a longtime backer of former President Trump, but saying, vote to Trump and DeSantis, guys, because this really the way you want to start.

It could be very damaging internally, but I think if Donald Trump hangs in there in a primary and Ron DeSantis gets in as expected, it - that is going to be the tenor and the volume. That is the starting point for this campaign.

SANCHEZ: Margaret, I want to get your thoughts on something just in to CNN, from our colleague, Paula Reid. A source familiar with the matter telling CNN that Michael Cohen has been advised by his legal team to stop publicly discussing the Manhattan District Attorney's investigation related to Donald Trump and this hush money payment.

Of course, we've seen Michael Cohen, all over the place recently. What are your thoughts on this new development?

TALEV: Yes, it sounds like something a lawyer would advise their client, number one, to avoid jeopardy of their own. But I think this is really a pivotal moment of whether it's a matter of a moment or days or several days and we don't know until it happens. But Michael Cohen has already sort of learned the hard way about what

it means to be involved with Donald Trump and what it means to go through the justice system. And there has - there - I just - I'm not at all surprised that his lawyers telling him that.

DEAN: And Margaret, once again, you have the GOP - you have the House GOP right now down in Florida, they were there for a policy retreat, they want to talk about agenda items. And once again, they're talking about former President Donald Trump. This is the trend in the Republican Party. They say they want to talk about the agenda and yet they end up talking about Trump. Is that just more of what we can expect to see in the months ahead, do you think?

TALEV: Well, I think the GOP has been in a bit of a holding pattern and this is another example of it.

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I mean, the reason why you've had three House Republican Committee Chairman already come out and preemptively call for an investigate - for testimony from the Manhattan District Attorney before this even gone forward is because they were instructed to do so publicly by the House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who is under pressure from Donald Trump to do so.

And then you see James Comer, the head of GOP-led oversight basically saying I can't control the right flank of my party, plus they're winning, so why should I. So I think this is - the GOP is locked in this kind of definitional moment where they kind of - the polling among Republican voters in the U.S. is saying they think they'd probably be in a stronger general election position for 2024 with a different nominee.

But then when you look at who's the favorite candidate, Donald Trump still tends to be the front runner in these polls. And so how do you break away from that inside the primary structure, inside the leadership fights that are on a razor's edge with just a couple of votes despair, it is - it has been an all these years later remains the central strategic conflict for a Republican Party. It's trying to put one eye on the future but can't quite move away from the past.

DEAN: Can't quite - yes, get away from the past.

Margaret Talev, it's always great to see. Thank you so much.

TALEV: Thanks.

SANCHEZ: Look, Donald Trump is facing a lot of legal issues and sometimes it could be tough to keep track of all these cases. So we're taking care of explaining them all to you with this quick programming note tonight, Pamela Brown and her guests explore how we got here with all these legal cases involving the former president. Inside The Trump Investigations airs tonight at 9 pm Eastern right here on CNN.

DEAN: Meantime, in Moscow, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping signed a joint declaration of partnership. What that could mean for the war in Ukraine, that's next.

SANCHEZ: And the country's ...

DEAN: And the ...

SANCHEZ: ... second biggest school district is shut down after union teachers and employees go on strike. We're talking nearly 500,000 Children unable to attend class. Ahead, we're going to talk to the Los Angeles superintendent about how negotiations are going.

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DEAN: We are following major developments from day two of the Putin- Xi summit in Moscow. China state media reporting the Russian and Chinese president signed a joint declaration today, deepening their partnership.

SANCHEZ: And Xi is framing himself as a possible peace broker while Putin now says that China's proposal could be the basis for ending the war. Today though the NATO Secretary General said that there are signs that Russia has requested lethal aid from China.

CNN's International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson joins us now.

Nic, these two men showing an on uncommon amount of admiration and some would even say affection for each other, it's a - it is unusual.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It's an advantageous situation for Xi Jinping. Putin is in need. He wants weapons, he may not get them. Jens Stoltenberg, the U.N. - NATO Secretary General said, though, they're aware that Russia has made that request to China, they haven't seen evidence that China is handing over weapons yet as part of the many business deals strike here between the pair that could include dual purpose equipment, such as chips that can be used in sophisticated guided missiles, the sort of thing Russia desperately needs.

But what Putin is getting here is this big economic support of improved trade that's going forward. They're getting to be a partnership, challenging the Western narrative of democracy. And as that idea that Xi Jinping put forward his plan for a peace deal over Ukraine, he says it recognizes the central tenets of the charter at the United Nations.

I think that's something that many countries would disagree with. But this is a narrative that Putin and Xi are pushing not just to their countries, but in other nations, the Global South, if you will. Gulf States, Arab Gulf States who look upon the conflict in Ukraine, not the same way that we do.

So there's a danger here that this narrative that they're putting forward is a powerful one and in their constituency it will hold, but as - but as a realistic peace deal, it doesn't stand any chance at the moment. DEAN: All right. Nic Robertson for us, thank you so much for that

insight.

We know that Ukrainian officials are also watching this summit in Moscow very closely.

CNN's Ivan Watson is joining us now from Kharkiv, Ukraine.

And Ivan, a Ukrainian official telling CNN discussions are underway for Chinese President Xi to hold a phone call with President Zelenskyy to discuss China's peace plan. Tell us more about that.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, China is presenting itself as a peacemaker, claiming that it is neutral in this war, which he calls a crisis and that it has proposed some kind of a peace plan. But the Chinese leader has yet to explain it directly to the Ukrainian president.

While Xi Jinping has met more than 40 times in his career face to face with Vladimir Putin, he has not had a single phone call with the Ukrainian president since Russia invaded this country in February of last year. The Ukrainians don't want to say no outright to China because they prefer China purporting to be neutral rather than simply arming their Russian ally, so they're keeping the door open.

But we've also heard Ukrainian officials say if you want peace, it has to start with Russia withdrawing its troops from areas that it seized since February of last year and ending its occupation of our territory.

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So it's hard to see where China could kind of bridge the enormous gulf between Moscow and Kyiv right now at war as their soldiers continue to kill each other day and night.

In the meantime, a fascinating split screen here that tells you something about geopolitics today. The Japanese Prime Minister showed up in Kyiv, unannounced to meet with the Ukrainian government after Japan - after Tokyo pledged some $5.5 billion in aid to the Ukrainian government last month.

So you have two important leaders from Asia that are visiting warring governments in Moscow and in Kyiv on opposite sides of the front lines showing their support for the different sides in this war. It shows you a little bit about how forces around the world have lined up in this terrible conflict, Boris? Jessica?

SANCHEZ: A major split screen moment there in Kyiv. Ivan Watson reporting from Kharkiv. Thank you so much, Ivan.

Joining us now to talk about all these developments and bromance between Xi and Vladimir Putin is Josh Rogin. He's a columnist for the Washington Post and he literally wrote a book on U.S.-China relations in this day and age, it's Chaos Under Heaven: Trump, Xi, and the Battle for the Twenty-First Century. Josh, I know there was one specific statement from Xi that caught your

eye when he talked about China being ready to stand guard over the world order. What was your impression of that?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. No, just the thought of it sends chills down my spine, Boris. If you just imagine what the people in Ukraine must be thinking.

First, Xi Jinping - I'm sorry, Vladimir Putin goes to Mariupol and celebrates, takes a victory lap at the scene of a war crime where he's just been indicted for abducting and kidnapping 10s of thousands of innocent Ukrainian children. Then he shows up in Moscow with Xi Jinping.

And what did Xi Jinping said, he says, oh, we're going to control the world order together. Russia and China will be the world's policeman from now on, how did that sound to everyone? And it's just a kind of a sad and dystopian view of how international relations would be conducted where any invasion is just called a crisis and any mass atrocity is just called a child welfare program.

And if that's the world order that Xi Jinping and Putin are in for, I'm here to tell you the Ukrainians are not in for that. And that means that I think Ukrainians are very well aware that Xi Jinping's peace proposal is a ruse, that it's a fig leaf for his actual strategy, which is to support Putin against Ukraine and against us.

DEAN: And Josh, to that End, what do you make of these comments from the NATO general that said that there are signs that Russia has requested this lethal aid from China, although there's no evidence yet that they're delivering any weapons? How serious is that?

ROGIN: Right. I mean, that's no change from what we heard last week from U.S. officials. However, I think there is some evidence that they've been getting some limited amounts of ammunition and guns. Meanwhile, they're getting tons of non tons of non lethal support: body armor, drones, those microchips you talked about earlier.

China is all-in on the Russian army. The only reason they're not giving them more weapons is because they're afraid of getting sanctioned. And that's what the NATO Secretary General was trying to do. They're just trying to threaten sanctions.

But to be honest, I don't know if Putin and Xi care about that anymore. They're busted out of the economic sanctions, they busted out of the banking sanctions, they busted out of the energy sanctions, they busted out of the food sanctions. I'm pretty sure that sooner or later, the Chinese will stop pretending that they're not helping Russia, the Russian armies' invasion and just start doing it outright.

SANCHEZ: Well, the economics being such a huge part of this meeting underscores what you're saying that they're not quite as vulnerable to sanctions. And so I wonder, what can the West then do to either incentivize or deter China from providing lethal aid to the Kremlin?

ROGIN: The only thing that we can do is make good on our threats to sanction the companies that actually provide the weapons. And then the other thing that we could do if we wanted to actually win the war is to give the Ukrainians the planes and tanks and missiles and drones that they need to get this over with to push Russian forces out and be done with this once and for all.

China and Russia are there - they're not fools. They know that time is on their side. They know that the longer this goes on, the less Ukrainians there will be to fight back and the less of Ukraine there will be to emerge from this crisis. And so they're playing for time and the thing that I think we ought to be doing but we're not doing is to speed up our help to the Ukrainians so that they can win this year, which is what they're desperately begging for.

DEAN: Right. All right. Josh Rogin let's leave it there. Thanks so much for your expertise. You sure do appreciate it.

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