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Trump Faces Deadline on Claim of Immunity for Jan. 6 Speech; TikTok CEO Testifies on Capitol Hill Amid Calls to Ban App. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired March 23, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It is the top of the hour. I'm John Berman.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

Just moments from now, the future of TikTok in the U.S., the CEO is set to face a grilling from lawmakers over the safety of that app when it comes to your data and what, if any, of that information TikTok may be sharing with the Chinese government. TikTok says it has more than 150 million users here in the United States. So, as you can imagine, a lot of folks interested in this testimony. We're going to take you to that hearing live.

BERMAN: And, obviously, we are also watching what's going on in Lower Manhattan, where a grand jury investigating former President Trump, that grand jury is meeting today. But we learned just moments ago they will not be discussing a possible indictment today for Donald Trump. This, of course, has to deal with connections to the hush money scheme to pay off adult film star Stormy Daniels. Again, we just learned no testimony, and we don't believe any kind of vote from the grand jury on an indictment for Trump today. So, what are they doing and what does that mean?

HILL: We're going to answer those questions.

BERMAN: Also, all right, look at this, the Dow up more than 200 points today. It's after a drop big time yesterday after the Fed raised interest rates again. So, what does all this mean? What the Fed chair said yesterday that they didn't like, but they like today? We'll try to figure that all out, if we can.

HILL: It's so easy to keep track of, isn't it? Yes.

BERMAN: First, though, to Capitol Hill, where just moments from now, we will hear from the TikTok CEO in his first sworn testimony before lawmakers. Moments ago, he spoke to reporters as he walked into the Capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHOU CHEW, TIKTOK CEO: We are very excited to be here and many misconceptions about our company and I'm very proud to come here and represent them and all our users here in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN's Natasha Bertrand following these developments for us, and she joins us now. So, we expect some tough questions. What else do we expect to hear from the CEO?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: There are going to be many fiery exchanges during this hearing today, Erica. And we are told that in his prepared remarks, the Ceo of TikTok, he is going to ensure to lawmakers that ByteDance, which is the parent company, the Chinese parent company of TikTok, is not an agent of the Chinese government.

He is also expected to say that as part of the effort that TikTok is making to reassure Americans and lawmakers that their data is not going to be given to China, or that they won't be improperly spied on, that TikTok does plan to firewall user data in the U.S. from unauthorized foreign access.

Now, he is also going to note that TikTok has essentially become really essential in everyday life to American culture and also to creators, influencers, right, and, of course, small businesses. So, that is the argument we expect him to lay out here.

But U.S. lawmakers, they're already really expressing serious doubts about his testimony and the chair of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, who -- which is the committee that he will be testifying before today, she is already saying that they plan to expose the CEO's, quote, lies. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CATHY MCMORRIS RODGERS (R-WA): We are going to ask him questions. We're going to expose the truth about some of the lies that TikTok and CEO Chew has been stating, and we're going to expose the fact that TikTok cannot be trusted. They cannot be trusted with our data. They cannot be trusted to protect our children's mental health. And we're going to expose that truth today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERTRAND: Now, it's not just Republicans who are expressing concern about this app, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Democratic Senator Mark Warner, he was also telling CNN this morning that he believes that the app should be banned. But TikTok has acknowledged in recent weeks that it is -- you know, federal officials are demanding that ByteDance sell its stake in the company. It is unclear whether they're going to do that.

But just one final thing here, one thing that TikTok did not do to help its case here, is that four employees of TikTok were found to be improperly accessing journalist data on the app, two of those employees were in China. They were subsequently fired. But expect to hear a lot of questions about that today at the hearing. John, Erica?

BERMAN: Yes, I think we're going to hear a lot of very, very pointed questions at this hearing, which starts very shortly.

[10:05:04]

Natasha Bertrand, thank you, as always, for your reporting.

HILL: Joining me now to discuss these data security concerns at TikTok, Justin Sherman, he's the founder and CEO of Global Cyber Strategies. Justin, it's good to have you with us this morning.

So, as we wait for this hearing to get underway, there's a lot of talk about TikTok being a national security threat. Those are the words that we hear coming from a lot of makers -- a lot of lawmakers, rather. Based on what you know about how the company is operating in this country, is it a national security threat? And if so, why?

JUSTIN SHERMAN, FOUNDER AND CEO, GLOBAL CYBER STRATEGIES: There are really two pieces to this debate. The first is how is what TikTok's collecting and doing with data, how is the way it's delivering content any different than any other app?

And so in this sense, we get to the question of the lack of U.S. privacy law, the data Wild West of Google, of Facebook, of data brokers, of plenty of companies who are in this business of collecting and aggregating data, using it in potentially harmful ways. And so in that sense, as many folks have pointed out, some of these issues go well beyond TikTok.

HILL: So they do -- yes, go ahead. Sorry, Justin.

SHERMAN: So, they do, right. The second piece, though, is that many of those other companies I just named are not owned by a Chinese technology company. And so that's where a lot of this debate has led to is, okay, even if the data collection on TikTok is the same as Facebook or some others, what is the risk that the Chinese government because of the parent company, ByteDance, could actually access that data as a result.

HILL: And what is that risk?

SHERMAN: I think the risk is there. I think, you know, the Chinese government has shown clearly that it can coerce technology companies within China to censor content, to hand over data, to assist with espionage. I think the real question here is we can't just look at this from a national security standpoint.

HILL: So, what's the other --

SHERMAN: Its app has millions of users, right, so free speech and all of these other considerations come into play. And that's why I think we're far less likely to get a full ban and more likely to see some kind of potentially middle ground restriction.

HILL: It's also -- I think, for people at home trying to wrap their head around, and, again, TikTok says there are 150 million users here in the U.S., we know it's popular, and it's not just with kids. I know people my age and older, right, who loved TikTok for recipes or great housecleaning hacks, whatever it may be, I think when people hear this and that there's a potential that the Chinese government could access their information, the next logical question is, okay, so then what are they doing with that? And why should I, as a user, be concerned about it?

SHERMAN: This is why the risk is a lot clearer for government employees, and it is for the average American. In December, Congress said no federal government device can use TikTok. I think that makes sense. I think the risk to your point is a lot higher when we're talking about could you potentially get behavioral information or location data on somebody who works in the government.

But that's why when we talk about a complete ban, one that would impact all of these other Americans who don't work in government, who don't have clearances. That's why a lot of people have trouble getting there is they say, what does my activity have to do with the Chinese government. And, yes, there're concerns as well about content. But, again, most people, I think, feel that the hair consuming content that you know is not propaganda or anything, but is dance videos and recipes and political content and other information.

HILL: And is there just -- I mean, just a couple of practical questions for you, too, because I find these come up when I talk with people about this story. Is there anything that you can change in your current settings on TikTok that restricts that data?

SHERMAN: Appreciate your this is the challenge with most apps nowadays, is there are some small tweaks you can make, for example, on TikTok, it will ask you, can we get access to your contacts on your phone? So, you can and you should say no to that question. But at the end of the day, everything you do on the app, the videos you watch, are you watching conservative content, liberal content, are you watching LGBTQ content, right, content from black creators, all of that gets collected and taken into the company systems. That's not something you can really change if you use the app.

HILL: And to your point, that is also information that other apps are collecting, other social media apps that people are using.

When we talk about a ban, too, I mean, how does that work for the 150 million users in this country who already have TikTok on their phones? If it's banned is it just going to magically disappear?

SHERMAN: If it were to be banned, I think it would start with the app stores. The app stores would probably -- Apple and Google remove TikTok from their stores and then TikTok would probably, which it did in India when it was banned, stopped people in the country from accessing TikTok servers.

[10:10:06]

But I think a ban is highly unlikely, and a lot of that, as mentioned, is legal, right? The same authorities Trump used when he tried to ban TikTok in 2020, say the president cannot restrict the import or export of information. Obviously, TikTok is involved in information. And so there are a few bills that would give the executive that authority, but right now, that has not changed. And so a lot of this Biden administration talk of let's do a ban, it sounds great, maybe if they get a bill passed. But right now, I don't see how that's possible.

HILL: This has become such a hot political issue, interesting to see, right, folks on both sides of the aisle coming together on it. When we look at it from a broader perspective, though, sort of a geopolitical issue, how important is it for the United States politically to take a stand and how much do you think that's driving some of this?

SHERMAN: Politics is absolutely a piece of this. What's -- even going back years before former President Trump tried to ban TikTok. He actually told reporters on Air Force One that banning TikTok would be a great way to get back at China for the spread of COVID, and so politics has been a part of this, not all of it, but part of it since day one.

As you said, right now, there are members today. I'm sure who will want to make political points about the need for a privacy law, which we absolutely need. There will be others who probably will try to out- China bash each other and sort of use this as a punching bag to say the Chinese government is a problem, China is a competitor to the U.S., and so all of that, I think, is mixed into this debate and will impact, I think, a little bit what happens going forward.

HILL: Yes, I think we can certainly predict with fairly good certainty that there will be some viral moments. Whether they make it onto the TikTok, that's a separate issue. Justin Sherman, really good to have you with us this morning, thanks for explaining it so well and making it so relatable for us.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

HILL: And a quick programming note for you, be sure to join us tonight for CNN Primetime as Abby Phillip takes a look at TikTok's future amid these calls to ban the app. Is Time Up for TikTok hosted by Abby Phillip airs tonight right here 9:00 P.M.

Donald Trump's legal team facing a deadline today, so this is in a case that would determine whether the former president can be held liable for his conduct leading up to the insurrection.

BERMAN: Department of Justice argues that the president cannot be immune to private lawsuits brought against him for his role in the riot. Trump's lawyers want the cases thrown out under the umbrella presidential immunity.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz, who's covering any number of things, joins us now. And you've also got some new reporting on the role of former Vice President Mike Pence in the January 6th probe. What's going on there?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, I am at the federal courthouse and we did see one of Donald Trump's lawyers here today, Evan Corcoran at the center of many different criminal investigations. He's representing Donald Trump as that team is trying to fight some of the testimony that vice president -- former Vice President Mike Pence may give before a federal grand jury. So, remember, Pence, had been subpoenaed to come in and testify in the grand jury probe of January 6th and Trump's team is trying to assert some level of executive privilege, basically protect the conversations he would have had directly with Mike Pence.

And we know today, we have been able to confirm that there is a hearing expected. It would be under seal. But it is Donald Trump's team still arguing to try and cordon off some of what that testimony might be related to Mike Pence.

Now, of course, Evan Corcoran, we've been watching him quite closely this week. He was that attorney that the Justice Department has been pursuing more answers from in the Mar-a-Lago probe, a separate criminal investigation also by the special counsel here in this courthouse. He is not here for that today to give additional testimony. It is -- it does appear for something else, and he has declined to tell us what it is exactly.

BERMAN: All right. Katelyn Polantz in Washington, thank you so very much.

We're now going to go up on Capitol Hill there and listen to the CEO of TikTok, Shou Chew.

CHEW: I actually met my wife here. By the way, she was just born a few miles away from here in Virginia.

Two years ago, I became the CEO of TikTok. Today, we have more than a billion monthly active users around the world, including over 150 million in the United States. Our app is a place where people can be creative and curious. And we're close to 5 million American businesses, mostly small businesses, go to find new customers and to fuel their growth.

[10:15:02]

Now, as TikTok has grown, we've tried to learn the lessons of companies that have come before us, especially when it comes to the safety of teenagers. While the vast majority of people on TikTok are over 18, and one of our fastest growing demographics are people over 35, we spent a lot of time adopting measures to protect teenagers.

Many of those measures are first for the social media industry. We forbid direct messaging for people under 16, and we have a 60-minute watch time by default for those under 18. We have a suite of family pairing tools so that parents can participate in their teen's experience and make the choices that are right for their family.

We want TikTok to be a place where teenagers can come to learn, which is why we recently launched a feed that exclusively features educational videos about STEM. STEM videos already have over 116 billion views on TikTok. And I think TikTok is inspiring a new generation to discover a passion for math and science.

And I would also like to talk about national security concerns that you have raised, that we take very, very seriously. Let me start by addressing a few misconceptions about ByteDance of which we are a subsidiary. ByteDance is not owned or controlled by the Chinese government. It's a private company. 60 percent of the company is owned by global institutional investors. 20 percent is owned by the founder and 20 percent owned by employees around the world. ByteDance has five board members, three of them are American.

Now, TikTok itself is not available in Mainland China. We're headquartered in Los Angeles and in Singapore, and we have 7,000 employees in the U.S. today. Still, we have heard important concerns about the potential for unwanted foreign access to U.S data and potential manipulation of the TikTok U.S. ecosystem. Our approach has never been to dismiss or trivialize any of these concerns. We have addressed them with real action.

Now, that's what we've been doing for the last two years, building what amounts to a firewall. The seals of protected us user data from unauthorized foreign access. The bottom line is this. American data stored on American soil by an American company overseen by American personnel. We call this initiative Project Texas. That's where Oracle is headquartered.

Today, U.S. TikTok data is stored by default in Oracle service. Only vetted personnel operating in a new company called TikTok U.S. data security can control access to this data. Now, additionally, we have plans for this company to report to an independent American board with strong security credentials.

Now, there's still some work to do. We have legacy U.S. data sitting in our service in Virginia and in Singapore. We're deleting those and we expect that to be complete this year. When that is done, all protected U.S. data will be under the protection of U.S. law and under the control of the U.S.-led security team. This eliminates the concern that some of you have shared with me, that TikTok user data can be subject to Chinese law.

This goes further, by the way, than what any other company in our industry have done. We also provide unprecedented transparency and security for the source code for the TikTok app and recommendation engine. Third party validators like Oracle and others, will review and validate our source code and algorithms. This will help ensure the integrity of the code that powers what Americans see on our app. We will further provide access to researchers, which helps them study and monitor our content ecosystem.

Now, we believe we are the only company that offers this level of transparency. Trust is about actions we take. We have to earn their trust with decisions we make for our company and our products. The potential security privacy content manipulation concerns raised about TikTok are really not unique to us. The same issues apply to other companies. We believe what's needed are clear, transparent rules that apply broadly to all tech companies. Ownership is not at the core of addressing these concerns.

Now, as I conclude, there are more than 150 million Americans who love our platform, and we know we have a responsibility to protect them, which is why I'm making the following commitments to you and to all our users. Number one, we will keep safety, particularly for teenagers as a top priority for us. Number two, we will firewall protect the U.S. data from unwanted foreign access.

[10:20:00]

Number three, TikTok will remain a place for free expression and will not be manipulated by any government. And fourth, we will be transparent and we will give access to third party independent monitors that remain accountable for commitments.

I'll be grateful for any feedback that you have and I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much.

RODGERS: As you know the testimony that you're about to give a subject to Title 18 section 1001 of the United States Code. As you state in your testimony, ByteDance is TikTok's parent company. Is it accurate to say that you are in regular communication with the CEO of ByteDance beyond Robo?

CHEW: Chair Rogers, yes, I am in mitigation with them.

RODGERS: Okay. Kelly Zhang is the CEO of ByteDance China overseeing Douyin, the Chinese version of TikTok. Are you in regular communication with Kelly?

CHEW: I'm not in regular communication with her.

RODGERS: The ByteDance editor-in-chief is Zhang Fuping, correct?

CHEW: I believe so.

RODGERS: And Wu Xugang (ph) is Beijing ByteDance technology board member and also an official of the cyberspace administration in China, is this correct?

CHEW: I believe so. I -- they are not in the right --

RODGERS: Thank you. All of these individuals work or affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party are not the highest levels of leadership at ByteDance, a company where you previously served as the chief financial officer, where you regularly communicate with their CEO.

TikTok has told us that you weren't sharing data with the CCP but leaked audio from within TikTok has proven otherwise. TikTok told us that you weren't tracking the geolocation of American citizens. You were. TikTok told us you weren't spying on journalists. You were. In your testimony, you state that ByteDance is not beholden to the CCP. Again, each of the individuals I listed are affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party, including Zhang Fuping, who was reported to be the communist party secretary of ByteDance, and who has called for the party committee to, quote, take the lead across all party lines to ensure that algorithm is enforced by, quote, correct political direction.

Just this morning, The Wall Street Journal reported that the CCP is opposed to a forced sale of TikTok by ByteDance, quoting a CCP spokesman is saying the Chinese government would make a decision regarding any sale of TikTok. So, the CCP believes they have the final say over your company. I have zero confidence in your assertion that ByteDance TikTok or not beholden to the CCP.

Next question. Heating content is a way of promoting and moderating content. In your current or previous positions within Chinese companies, have employees engaged in heating content for users outside of China? Very quickly, yes or no?

CHEW: Our heating process is approved by our local teams in the various countries.

RODGERS: So, the answer is yes. Thank you.

Have any moderation tools being used to remove content on TikTok associated with the Uyghur genocide? Yes or no?

CHEW: We do not remove that kind of content. TikTok is a place for freedom of expression and challenges (ph). Like I said, if you use our app, you can go on it, then you will see a lot of users around the world, expressing content on that topic and many others.

RODGERS: Thank you. What about the massacre in Tiananmen Square? Yes or no?

CHEW: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

RODGERS: The massacre in Tiananmen Square.

CHEW: That kind of content is available on our platform. You can go and search it.

RODGERS: I will remind you that making false or misleading statements to Congress is a federal crime.

CHEW: I understand. Again, you can go on our platform and you will find that content.

RODGERS: Okay. Thank you. Reclaiming my time, can you say with 100 percent certainty that ByteDance or the CCP cannot use your company or its divisions to heat content to promote pro-CCP messages for an act of aggression against Taiwan?

CHEW: We do not promote or remove content at the request of the Chinese government and we will --

RODGERS: The question is are you 100 percent certain that they cannot use your company to promote such messages?

CHEW: It is our commitment to this committee and all our users that we will keep this free from any manipulation by any government.

RODGERS: Okay. If you can't say 100 percent certain, I take that as a no.

As I previously referenced, TikTok spied on American journalists. Can you say with 100 percent certainty that neither ByteDance nor TikTok employees can target other Americans with similar surveillance techniques?

CHEW: Chair Rodgers, I, first of all, disagree with the characterization that is spying. It was an internal investigation.

RODGERS: Surveillance, yes or no, can you do surveillance of other Americans?

CHEW: We will protect the U.S. user data and fire it off from all unwanted foreign excess. It is a commitment that we have given to the committee.

RODGERS: So, I guess my question is can -- I want you to wanted to hear you say with 100 percent certainty that neither ByteDance nor TikTok employees can target other Americans with similar surveillance techniques, as you did with the journalist.

[10:25:09]

CHEW: Again, I don't disagree with the characterization in surveillance and we have given our commitments, Chair Rodgers. The four commitments I think I say a commitment that we will not be influenced by any government on these issues.

RODGERS: DOJ is investigating this surveillance right now.

To the American people watching today, hear this, TikTok is a weapon by the Chinese Communist Party to spy on you, manipulate what you see and exploit for future generations. A ban is only a short-term way to address TikTok and a data privacy bill is the only way to stop TikTok from ever happening again in the United States. I yield back.

I now yield to the ranking member for five minutes.

REP. FRANK PALLONE (D-NJ): Thank you, Madam Chair. Let me just start out by saying, Mr. Chew that I don't find what you suggested with Project Texas and this firewall that's being suggested to whoever will be acceptable to me. In other words, you know, the kind -- I still believe that the Beijing communist government will still control and have the ability to influence what you do. And so this idea of this Project Texas is simply not acceptable.

According to a recent report, TikTok is on target to make between $15 and $18 billion in revenue this year. Is that an accurate forecast?

CHEW: Congressman, as a private company, we are not sharing our --

PALLONE: I thought that's what you would say. How much money will TikTok make by delivering personalized advertisements just to your users in the United States? Will you give me that information?

CHEW: Again, Congressman, respectfully, as a private company, we will not be disclosing that.

PALLONE: Look, my concern -- the impression you're giving, and I -- you know, I can understand why you're trying to give that impression is that, you know that you're just performing some kind of public service here, right? I mean, this is a benign company that's just performing a public service. I -- maybe you're not -- maybe that's not what you're saying, but I don't buy it, right?

My concern here is primarily about the privacy issue, the fact that TikTok is making all kinds of money by collect -- gathering private information about Americans that they don't need for their business purposes, and then they sell it.

And I mentioned this legislation that the ranking -- that the chair and I have that would minimize data collection and make it much more difficult for TikTok and other companies to do that. So, if you want to make some commitments today, I'll issue to make some commitments with regard to this legislation. And, you know, you're going to tell me well, the bill isn't passed and so, therefore, I don't have to do it.

But you know, you say you're benign. You want to do good things for the public. So, let me ask you, why not -- what about a commitment that says that you won't sell the data that you collect? Would you commit to that, not selling the data you collect?

CHEW: Congressman, I believe we don't sell data to any data brokers.

PALLONE: You don't sell to anyone?

CHEW: We don't sell data to data brokers.

PALLONE: I didn't ask you data brokers. Did you sell it to anyone? In other words, I under our bill, you can only use the data for your own purposes, not to sell it to anyone. Would you commit to not selling your data to anyone?

CHEW: Congressman, I actually am in support of some rules.

PALLONE: I didn't ask you whether rules, I asked you whether the company, TikTok, would commit to not selling its data to anyone and just using it for its own purposes internally?

CHEW: I can get back to you on the details.

PALLONE: Okay, get back to me, all right.

Another thing that's in our bill says that we would prohibit targeting marketing to people under the age of 17. Would you be willing to agree to prohibit targeted marketing to people, Americans under the age of 17?

CHEW: Congressman, we have actually stricter rules for advertisers in terms of what they can show to our users under the age of 18.

PALLONE: So, do you prohibit -- would you be willing to prohibit targeted marketing to those under 17? That's what's in our bill.

CHEW: I understand that there's some talk and some legislation around this around the country --

PALLONE: Well, again, I wanted to you to make that commitment without the legislation. Since you say you're a good company, you want to do good things, why not?

CHEW: It's something that we can we can look into and get back.

PALLONE: Okay, I appreciate that. Okay. We also have in our bill a requirement of heightened protection for sensitive data, particularly location and health data. Would you commit to not gathering or dealing with location or health data unless you get affirmative consent from the consumer? In other words, under our bill, those are categorized as sensitive, and unless the person specifically says, I want you to collect that data, you wouldn't be able, to location and health data?

[10:30:04]

Would you commit to that?

CHEW: Congressman, in principle, I support that.